Guild Wars 2

That is an apples vs. oranges comparison, and a highly biased comparison at that. Again, the Staff is multi-target, which most people agree is far more useful then single target, and it comes as no surprise that a 1v1 focused weapon set has higher damage output on that one target, then a multi-target one.

Secondly, you’re factoring in a very spotty ability to apply 5 stacks of Torment on an off-block event that is triggered by pets and players alike, and requires the attacker to be in relatively short range and facing in front of you. In most non 1v1 fights, this off block has a quite terrible success rate.

The mistake in logic that you, and so many others continually fall prey to in balance discussions, is to focus your stance almost entirely on a 1v1 setting, which clearly is not the most important aspect of balance to consider in a game that is almost entirely about GvG or ZvZ! The buffed Scepters damage output will be laughable in a GvG/ZvZ setting, and in most cases still inferior to Staff in a 1v1 setting with IE traited!

And your last statement also makes it clear where you come from, and that your interest in improving the Mesmer class is more likely casual rather then genuine.

The Mesmer Scepter is among the worst weapons in the game right now, and thus ANY improvement you make to it will improve the Staff + Scepter Condie builds…DUH! That doesn’t mean that either Staff or Scepter are or will be OPd, but rather that Mesmers finally may have a remotely decent secondary weapon set for Condition builds, even if that set is (correctly!) focused on delivering single-target damage.

Basically they’re meant to work together. Is there a non PU Condie build that you’d like to show us that is currently considered competitive? I know of none, so your last statement is pretty ridiculous.

This buffs condie 1v1 PU build which really wasn’t needed. What IS needed is a buff to Mesmer builds such kittenter or AoE Glamour builds that can be useful in zerg vs zerg.

Scepter did need a buff but this will just give PU more hate.

Well, Xavi – we see what happened to AoE Glamour in the first place. Although, you’d think that the least they could do, would be to revert the ridiculous ICD from Blinding Befuddlement. Although, I definitely agree that glass-cannon shatter needs some love, and Glamours need to be revisited with the current state-of-game in mind.

Don’t forget – where is our speed signet?!?!

/sigh

There are useful things for GC shatter in this path too; obviously the fix to Sword #3, but also the ability to AoE DD or AoE Daze with Mantras will almost certainly be incorporated into shatter builds & rotations. (Especially since many recent builds already use Halting Strike over MT)

Condition Shatter builds should also be much more viable due to both IE and the slight improvement to Maim the Disillusioned. Not sure if it’s enough, but a step in the right direction.

Lockdown builds got a significant boost from the AE Daze Mantra as well, and these builds are already competitive in group play.

Then there is the iWarden fix. Many people used Focus for GC Shatter before the iWarden nerf, maybe we’ll see it in use more often now. Again, a step in the right direction for diversity.

The Scepter being the condie-focused 1h should come as no surprise, and finally it will live up to that name. As far as simple fixes go, ANet chose the right Condition. It both fits Mesmers and is strong enough to matter, especially making the Clones even remotely competitive to Staff ones. There is simply no way to fix Scepter as a 1h condition weapon, and not boost PU in the process. If PU becomes even more powerful 1v1 with this, I’m sure we’ll see adjustments to the core issue: PU!

I think ANet did a great job listening to input from players on this. I don’t think anyone anticipated the iLeap fix, we’ve asked for this since the very beginning and it was always denied. Finally they listened. Same goes for offensive Mantras becoming AE as well, this alone adds such a huge “unknown” that could change the current meta builds.

GG Anet! Can’t wait to play it!

mango.9267:

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

mango.9267:

There seems to be a lot of controversy about the scepter AA buff, so I thought I’d make this thread for people to focus the discussion on just that (and by “discussion”, I mean talk about why it’s a terrible idea).

I like the other buffs, but scepter AA didn’t need torment. I have no idea what Anet’s vision is, but condi mesmer didn’t need a buff. I worry that this does even more to proliferate the “condi meta” and threatens the health of the game.

Please discuss as the OP why you feel scepter was fine and exactly why condition mesmer didn’t need a buff. To simple state without evidence that scepter is fine and condition builds are in a good is not enough evidence to consider those 2 statements truthful and in no need of questioning.

I discuss my reasoning in the posts below. I never said scepter was fine; in fact, I even stated I think scepter could use a buff, but just not like this.

The tl;dr is that torment scepter AA and scepter clones make it so you can permanently torment your opponent, who has no counterplay options and no chance of cleansing it. This buffs condi mesmers, who didn’t need a buff.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

Scepter as weapon is slow. It;s block function creating torment is useful, but only works on a melee strike and proc’s nothing on range.

This is wrong. If you block a ranged attack, you still apply torment, even if you’re not in melee range.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

To further put scepter at a disadvantage is the fact that traits which aid scepter at master level are found outside of the condition damage tree. Not to mention the condition damage tree is tied to power damage, further complicated by torment on shatter is a grandmaster trait found in a completely different tree again. In order to obtain stream lined synergy one would have to invest 30-20-10-20-30 in order to be able to produce clones, maximise scepter, make use of clone death and cause conditions on shatter. As you can see that build structure is not possible, so already you can create something functional, but not ideal or superior. This opposed to something like warrior where precision and condition damage and in the same tree as duel weilding which applies bleed,torment and cripple faster , and deep cuts which extends bleed time by 50% and increases crit chance on sword which proc’s sigils. Already you can see there is professions that have it much more streamlined.

I’m not talking about traits, per se. However, PU, debilitating dissipation, and deceptive evasion are all you need to make an insanely OP build with scepter. The other traits are almost irrelevant.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

The current state of conditions builds were much the same as engineer. Debil dissa proc’ed random conditions on clone destruction which made condition application easy, but you had no control over which conditions would be applied. The same issue applies to winds of chaos. The application was random and would often stack vulnerability which aided your cause in no way. Mesmer needed more direct and assured ways of playing out a condition build.

Random proc’s aren’t that unreliable. Condi mesmers still have very reliable sources of condi’s from sharper images, scepter 2, scepter 3, torch 4, torch 5, etc. The new scepter buff just pushes it over the top

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

^This is more of the crux of the concern..how will perplexity affect a torment mesmer in WvW. I feel in spvp scepter will become a hotjoin hero for a short time, but won’’t see the light of day in any higher competitive teams.

The concern isn’t about perplexity at all. Even a condi mesmer not running perplexity would still be very OP with this scepter buff. That said, it would be even worse when combined with all of the already common and strong specs that exist for condi mesmer. Shatter is probably still better for teamplay in pvp, but this scepter buff doesn’t help the condi meta plaguing the roaming scene.

You’re correct. It proc’s sometimes on a range attack, but I can confirm whole heartly..not always. It will proc on PvE foes ground AoE like the butcher in HoTW..but not on engi nades. It will proc on arah bows barrage, but not on ranger barrage..my point is, it seem slective in what range attacks will proc and which ones it will not.

I understand the concern, but in the other spvp thread most agree scepter will be a hotjoin hero, and there is not much wrong with that. Many play hotjoin just for this reason..to run builds that wouldn’t have a home in soloQ top 500 or tpvp. This is why you don’t see mesmer PU in top 500 soloQ or tpvp..you don’t see it in PvE and you don’t see it in tournaments. It has already been stated by the mesmer community who play at this level that they won’t being using it. It doesn’t deliver as much kittenter build..yet, the same people who admit they won’t being using it, or expecting to see it in any thing mildly ranked are the same people saying it should go. It seems the idea of casuals in PvE and hotjoin shouldn’t be considered, even though no expects to it appear anywhere but unrated matches. I agree it is a heavy handed buff, but at the end of the day all I see it amounting to is getting ppl to rage quit hotjoin. Outside of that it can’t take camps quickly in WvW, it moves slowly and a simple sigil of generosity reverses everything every 9 seconds because torment is all it stacks so there is little chance it won’t reverse it. With ranger and guardian signet alone clearing every 10 seconds, zerker stance, cleansing longbow fields, reflects etc there is enough counter to it despite it being a heavy handed buff. It could have been done better, but it is not the end of the world as many are saying. I expect to see more ppl move to ranger after the patch than to mesmer scepter.

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

what im worried about is how my ranger is going to deal with this in WvW while kiting clones, even if they are slow generating clones.

Simple. Play double axe. Kill everything with your auto attack, since you are at range, the clone-death will not hit you (240 radius from the place the clone died).
Use Whirling Defense to reflect the scepter projectiles from the mesmer and his clones, and maybe even reflect “Ether Clone” and get your own clone (YES, you’ll get a ranger clone).
If you have conditions on you, stand in your Healing Spring and get them removed.

how many stacks would you get with Runes of Torment , 40-70% longer torment (if you have 4 or 6 in your condi duration tree)

The condition duration tree is ONLY useful if you are going to shatter your clones for boon remove.

the Anti toxin heal might be useful, if you are already running a passive heal or regen, would’t that be a Hard counter to the new torment on AA,

NEVER ever use the Antitoxin Spray. Stay with Healing Spring.

I’m ok with the scepter getting buffed, but they buffed it too much.
I’d rather have torment only in autoattack 3, this means that the clones wouldn’t cast torment either, removing 5 sources of torment (3 clones + 2 autoattacks) and keeping just one(1 autoattack).

Ludovicus.7980:

I’m ok with the scepter getting buffed, but they buffed it too much.
I’d rather have torment only in autoattack 3, this means that the clones wouldn’t cast torment either, removing 5 sources of torment (3 clones + 2 autoattacks) and keeping just one(1 autoattack).

Would be fine on Ether Blast (second part) as well (or alone). The problem with it on Ether Bolt is purely the rate of clone production plus the fact it’s on the clone autos removing most means of counterplay.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Would be fine on Ether Blast (second part) as well (or alone). The problem with it on Ether Bolt is purely the rate of clone production plus the fact it’s on the clone autos removing most means of counterplay.

Yeah, I don’t care in which step you put the torment. But making clones to apply torment is way too strong.

How about this:

Ether Bolt: does damage, combo finisher: physical projectile (20%).
Ether Blast: applies torment in a small area around the target, combo finisher: blast.
Ether Clone: does damage and creates a clone that casts Ether Bolt.

That…could actually be really good. While a Blast finisher on the first part of the chain would be OP, even advancing to the second part means you’re already in combat, so you can’t use it to rapidly Might-stack before engaging.

May need more thought, though, as blast finishers on an auto may be too strong.