Guild Wars 2

Page bug. fix 15 chars

StickerHappy.8052:

denis.9487:

Zmodd.5427:

Undoubtedly there are many builds being played out there that we don’t know of because they weren’t posted here. It’s really hard to say “no build diversity” without real, “exact”, numbers.

Ok let me take a stab at this. Top 3 builds shatter lockdown pu
Clone death has been nerfed
Phantasm build
Mantra build
These so called new builds fit into this category but have some minor traits or personal weapon/sigil/runs choices.
IMo the reason we say certain builds a viable is due to testing the other options. Not like in the past 2 years we didn’t explore

From What Basis? Lemme guess, forums and youtube.

How bout the people who dont post in the forums, dont stream, don’t record videos.

How about them?

Unless your playing a different version of the game then maybe you are correct. But since we all have the same options then strong builds will occur regardless of skill. De select all traits and fight someone of equal skill. Willing to beat the traited Mesmer wins.

denis.9487:

StickerHappy.8052:

denis.9487:

Zmodd.5427:

Undoubtedly there are many builds being played out there that we don’t know of because they weren’t posted here. It’s really hard to say “no build diversity” without real, “exact”, numbers.

Ok let me take a stab at this. Top 3 builds shatter lockdown pu
Clone death has been nerfed
Phantasm build
Mantra build
These so called new builds fit into this category but have some minor traits or personal weapon/sigil/runs choices.
IMo the reason we say certain builds a viable is due to testing the other options. Not like in the past 2 years we didn’t explore

From What Basis? Lemme guess, forums and youtube.

How bout the people who dont post in the forums, dont stream, don’t record videos.

How about them?

Unless your playing a different version of the game then maybe you are correct. But since we all have the same options then strong builds will occur regardless of skill. De select all traits and fight someone of equal skill. Willing to beat the traited Mesmer wins.

Regardless of skill? I humbly disagree. Care to elaborate?

StickerHappy.8052:

denis.9487:

StickerHappy.8052:

denis.9487:

Zmodd.5427:

Undoubtedly there are many builds being played out there that we don’t know of because they weren’t posted here. It’s really hard to say “no build diversity” without real, “exact”, numbers.

Ok let me take a stab at this. Top 3 builds shatter lockdown pu
Clone death has been nerfed
Phantasm build
Mantra build
These so called new builds fit into this category but have some minor traits or personal weapon/sigil/runs choices.
IMo the reason we say certain builds a viable is due to testing the other options. Not like in the past 2 years we didn’t explore

From What Basis? Lemme guess, forums and youtube.

How bout the people who dont post in the forums, dont stream, don’t record videos.

How about them?

Unless your playing a different version of the game then maybe you are correct. But since we all have the same options then strong builds will occur regardless of skill. De select all traits and fight someone of equal skill. Willing to beat the traited Mesmer wins.

Regardless of skill? I humbly disagree. Duel Me.

Oh my God read please. Take 2 mesmers of equal skill. 1 de selects all traits the other is traited.

denis.9487:

StickerHappy.8052:

denis.9487:

StickerHappy.8052:

denis.9487:

Zmodd.5427:

Undoubtedly there are many builds being played out there that we don’t know of because they weren’t posted here. It’s really hard to say “no build diversity” without real, “exact”, numbers.

Ok let me take a stab at this. Top 3 builds shatter lockdown pu
Clone death has been nerfed
Phantasm build
Mantra build
These so called new builds fit into this category but have some minor traits or personal weapon/sigil/runs choices.
IMo the reason we say certain builds a viable is due to testing the other options. Not like in the past 2 years we didn’t explore

From What Basis? Lemme guess, forums and youtube.

How bout the people who dont post in the forums, dont stream, don’t record videos.

How about them?

Unless your playing a different version of the game then maybe you are correct. But since we all have the same options then strong builds will occur regardless of skill. De select all traits and fight someone of equal skill. Willing to beat the traited Mesmer wins.

Regardless of skill? I humbly disagree. Duel Me.

Oh my God read please. Take 2 mesmers of equal skill. 1 de selects all traits the other is traited.

This goes for all classes, Its a useless argument. For sure the one with traits wins, /facepalm.

This tangent y’all are going on is dead silly.

It shows that with the traits we have during this play time we have discovered the better builds.

StickerHappy.8052:

AND If we had more people actually testing the builds that some people post instead of just blatantly shooting it down without extensive testing and tweaking, We will have more people inspired to post their own ideas,

This. We don’t have the luxury of having a truly “set” pro-level build (I don’t count shatter since we have so few high level mesmers running it in clear conscience — see supcutie’s comments on what shatter-mesmer uniquely brings to the table). imo that means there are potentially better builds out there. I’m not saying that we are fine and don’t need lots of fixes, but we should at least be continuing to build and try to find them.

We can sit and whine all we want, but once we’ve let the devs know whats wrong there isn’t kitten you can do. So get up and make a better build out of what you have.

Flufferz.8907:

StickerHappy.8052:

AND If we had more people actually testing the builds that some people post instead of just blatantly shooting it down without extensive testing and tweaking, We will have more people inspired to post their own ideas,

This. We don’t have the luxury of having a truly “set” pro-level build (I don’t count shatter since we have so few high level mesmers running it in clear conscience — see supcutie’s comments on what shatter-mesmer uniquely brings to the table). imo that means there are potentially better builds out there. I’m not saying that we are fine and don’t need lots of fixes, but we should at least be continuing to build and try to find them.

We can sit and whine all we want, but once we’ve let the devs know whats wrong there isn’t kitten you can do. So get up and make a better build out of what you have.

Yup, better than whining. +1 To you too Flufferz for Having an open mind.

So if I take all the downed traits can I still win? I am just saying during this play time we have hit a wall. We need fixes not people saying l2p. Why I hope hot breathes fresh air into our class.

denis.9487:

So if I take all the downed traits can I still win? I am just saying during this play time we have hit a wall. We need fixes not people saying l2p. Why I hope hot breathes fresh air into our class.

Ask that yourself dude. Sometimes it very helpful to use some common sense in your arguments.

Me along with other people are saying, that shatter, CI, pu or whatever a great builds yes, but that does not mean this is the way to go 100% of the time.

And Traits does not reflect Viability:

Take this for example.

Jportell will always be better than me with shatter, but does that reflect the he is better than me with CI?

The moral of the story is, yes we need fixes or changes, I am not denying that. But even if we get those changes, Not all builds can work with everyone.

So in the meantime, why not create or test a build that works for you.

And please, post it here, so we all know and try it ourselves too, who knows…

denis.9487:

So if I take all the downed traits can I still win? I am just saying during this play time we have hit a wall. We need fixes not people saying l2p. Why I hope hot breathes fresh air into our class.

I am quite anxious to see how the offhand shield will contribute to our PvE experience, given the fact that no other class uses shields in PvE. I get the feeling ANet didn’t think this through much.

Zmodd.5427:

And please, post it here, so we all know and try it ourselves too, who knows…

And have it shot down? haha. No Thanks. I have my fair share of those experiences but I still do great with my build.

You should put your money where you mouth is.

StickerHappy.8052:

Zmodd.5427:

And please, post it here, so we all know and try it ourselves too, who knows…

And have it shot down? haha. No Thanks. I have my fair share of those experiences but I still do great with my build.

hahahaha I know what you mean.

DaShi.1368:

You should put your money where you mouth is.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Phantasmic-Interruptions-Phantasm-Lockdown/first

The Original CI build.

How about You?

I play standard shatter.

DaShi.1368:

I play standard shatter.

I’m talking about where is the build? I told Zmodd that I don’t wanna share my builds anymore right, and you said I should put my mouth where my money is.

I posted my build.

How bout you? what did/can you contribute?

Not sure what you are asking of me. Can you clarify?

Again since this is not name wars. Very hard to lay claim with anything in this game. I play all builds lately I have been running a staff/gs hybrid for wvw with maim slotted since going into get an extra shatter is not forgiving.

The reality is that the vast majority of possible builds on mesmer have been explored extensively at this point in the game. Contrary to what has been said so far, there’s not that much possible diversity. There’s a couple of reasons for this, and if these got a bit fixed up in one way or another, it could expand possible traitsets enormously.

DE is the number 1 limiting factor on mesmer build diversity. Try as you might, it’s simply not possible to make a viable build that doesn’t include DE if you want to rely on either shatter or clone deaths. DE is even a strong choice in a phantasm build, although is definitely not necessary there.

Now, think about what builds rely on shatters or clone deaths. Every condition build for mesmer relies on either shatters (maim), clone deaths (everything else), or a combination of sharper images from phantasms and one or more of the other two. Glamour builds don’t really exist anymore (and never did in PvP anyway). So, this means that if you run a condition build on mesmer, you must go 4 points into dueling.

Now what if you run a power build? Well, you could go with shatter or phantasm. Interrupt builds can be made out of either shatter or phantasm builds, so they don’t fit into this classification, since interrupts are never a primary source of damage. If you go shatter, you need DE. If you go phantasm…DE is nice, but not strictly necessary.

This is insanely limiting! It means that for the vast majority of builds in the game, you are required to go 4 points into dueling. This leaves 1 grandmaster and 1 master trait for you to play with (2 grandmasters and 1 adept if you choose to go 6 dueling). There’s a finite amount of things you can do with that.

For example, say you wanted to make a signet build that deals damage with shatters/interrupts. Well, you need 4 points in dueling. You also are going to need at least 2 points in domination for signet cooldowns…but that trait conflicts with mental torment/halting strike, so you’re forced to go 4 into domination instead. Lastly you want to take cleansing inscriptions and blurred inscriptions…and all of a sudden your traits are 100% locked in. 4/6/4 with the only trait you can change being adept in chaos.

Obviously using a signet build as an example here is exaggerating since signet traits are crazily all over the place. However, most mesmer builds will go through this process to a similar extent. You pick what you want to do and how you want to do it aaaand all of a sudden 80%+ of your trait selection and placement is completely locked in with no variation.

Now, the possibility exists that there’s some build out there that hasn’t been used and is somehow crazily effective for some odd reasons, but I highly doubt it.

Now, as far as viable builds go, no mesmer builds are truly viable at the top competitive level. This is seen pretty clearly in the WTS, and is not really a debateable point. Now, the top level obviously is an incredibly limited group of players that the vast majority of people won’t ever encounter. Because of that, mesmer can certainly be played viably if you’re good enough at it as long as you stay out of WTS-level play. As long as you avoid that level, almost anything (within reason, I’m talking actual functioning builds here, not the random splat on a build editor that happens now and then) can be played successfully with enough skill. I personally prefer PU condie, but I’ve played phantasm builds, interrupt builds, and standard shatter builds with success.

Now that being said, the situation of the meta at the top level is not something that should be ignored. It shows benchmarks for truly how effective classes are when you push them to the limit. It shows very clearly that mesmer is less effective than every other class in the game. It shows that as players get better, as you fight tankier and more optimized builds, mesmer simply can’t keep up the way it is right now, and that’s not good. Yes, that singularity of mesmer non-viability doesn’t actually hit until that very top level, but the compression of how well you can perform compared to other classes absolutely comes into play. If I were equally skilled on warrior or ele as I am on mesmer, it would be far easier to carry and control matches, and I personally think that’s an awful thing that really needs to be fixed, hopefully in this expansion.

^ Honestly, Chaos, just type Pyro’s above up in a letter head and mail it off to the balance dev team.

Adding to the thread, I’ve read a lot of comments over and over talking about mes strength and build variety within a range of viability. Adding to this comments regarding discovery, proper testing, and (I suppose) advertising/teaching of said builds and gameplay. The summary being that Mesmer’s have a number of viable builds that can and will work, but players either can’t get anything but “meta’shatter” to work or don’t want to go to the effort to learn some new ropes.

You guys aren’t necessarily wrong. With the good variety of functional builds we’ve got going we can achieve plenty of success. The real issue here is for any Mesmer to take his class and run with it, the amount of effort/skill/timing/mastery/whatever he needs to produce success, or half-decent results is OFF THE FRICKEN CHARTS compared to any other class.

So what do Mesmers need? More reward for the sheer level of investment it costs to produce a result by playing the class with the various functional builds at our disposal.

That, or just make DE a kitten class mechanic already. DONE.

What do you feel the Mesmer is currently lacking ATM? Please don’t use general terms like “damage” without elaborating for what game mode and why you feel this way.

I feel like we lack the ability to play support in PvP. We have Boonshare, sure, but it’s extremely limited based on our Signet of Inspiration’s CD. While possible, it is definitely our main weakness in terms of ability.

What game mode (PvP, WvW, PvE Open World/Dungeons) do you feel Mesmer currently excels in the most? Least?

I feel like we excel in PvP the most. AoE bosses in PvE prevents our phantasms from staying up long and same thing for zergs in WvW, though I’d say open world PvE is where we’re least needed.

Without reworking anything, what minor adjustments would you make to any of our weapons/utilities/traits to make them more viable?

I’d like to increase the health of our support/utility phantasms. iDefender dies quickly in larger groups due to all the damage it is siphoning and it would help it defend in mid fights and whatnot. I’d also like for Mimic to copy the boons of the enemy and save those boons so we can use “Echo” as a chain skill to gain the boons as well as copy both those boons and our own to allies nearby.

Is there anything that would make you stop playing Mesmer? If you’ve stopped what would draw you back?

If ANet even attempted to nerf confusion again, I’d… well, not quit, but I’d be kittened as hell.

What has damaged your faith in the devs? Is there any faith remaining? What would have to happen to earn back your trust?

The Power Block not affecting thieves has left me annoyed at ANet, and how ANet nerfed both our glamour bombing and confusion didn’t make too much sense to me. It destroyed synergy between traits and promoted mindless zerging in WvW. That made me question what ANet wanted for this game.

What is your one (reasonable) Mesmer wish?

A trait that buffs our confusion damage.

That or a Mimic change that made it a boon copy-and-save ability that let’s us “Echo” it to nearby teammates and ourselves on demand.

Or, once more, more clone-generation traits without ICD’s.

Pyro’s post about the current state of mesmer is pretty accurate. The game has been out for so long that almost every build has been tested in most levels of PvP. Pretty much at the top end everything except shatter is found wanting in some respect.

I like sword 4 skill. It is a block. It can be CC. It can make clones. It also does great damage when it blocks an attack. I just want more skills like that.

Fay.2357:

The reality is that the vast majority of possible builds on mesmer have been explored extensively at this point in the game. Contrary to what has been said so far, there’s not that much possible diversity. There’s a couple of reasons for this, and if these got a bit fixed up in one way or another, it could expand possible traitsets enormously.

DE is the number 1 limiting factor on mesmer build diversity. Try as you might, it’s simply not possible to make a viable build that doesn’t include DE if you want to rely on either shatter or clone deaths. DE is even a strong choice in a phantasm build, although is definitely not necessary there.

Now, think about what builds rely on shatters or clone deaths. Every condition build for mesmer relies on either shatters (maim), clone deaths (everything else), or a combination of sharper images from phantasms and one or more of the other two. Glamour builds don’t really exist anymore (and never did in PvP anyway). So, this means that if you run a condition build on mesmer, you must go 4 points into dueling.

Now what if you run a power build? Well, you could go with shatter or phantasm. Interrupt builds can be made out of either shatter or phantasm builds, so they don’t fit into this classification, since interrupts are never a primary source of damage. If you go shatter, you need DE. If you go phantasm…DE is nice, but not strictly necessary.

This is insanely limiting! It means that for the vast majority of builds in the game, you are required to go 4 points into dueling. This leaves 1 grandmaster and 1 master trait for you to play with (2 grandmasters and 1 adept if you choose to go 6 dueling). There’s a finite amount of things you can do with that.

For example, say you wanted to make a signet build that deals damage with shatters/interrupts. Well, you need 4 points in dueling. You also are going to need at least 2 points in domination for signet cooldowns…but that trait conflicts with mental torment/halting strike, so you’re forced to go 4 into domination instead. Lastly you want to take cleansing inscriptions and blurred inscriptions…and all of a sudden your traits are 100% locked in. 4/6/4 with the only trait you can change being adept in chaos.

Obviously using a signet build as an example here is exaggerating since signet traits are crazily all over the place. However, most mesmer builds will go through this process to a similar extent. You pick what you want to do and how you want to do it aaaand all of a sudden 80%+ of your trait selection and placement is completely locked in with no variation.

Now, the possibility exists that there’s some build out there that hasn’t been used and is somehow crazily effective for some odd reasons, but I highly doubt it.

Now, as far as viable builds go, no mesmer builds are truly viable at the top competitive level. This is seen pretty clearly in the WTS, and is not really a debateable point. Now, the top level obviously is an incredibly limited group of players that the vast majority of people won’t ever encounter. Because of that, mesmer can certainly be played viably if you’re good enough at it as long as you stay out of WTS-level play. As long as you avoid that level, almost anything (within reason, I’m talking actual functioning builds here, not the random splat on a build editor that happens now and then) can be played successfully with enough skill. I personally prefer PU condie, but I’ve played phantasm builds, interrupt builds, and standard shatter builds with success.

Now that being said, the situation of the meta at the top level is not something that should be ignored. It shows benchmarks for truly how effective classes are when you push them to the limit. It shows very clearly that mesmer is less effective than every other class in the game. It shows that as players get better, as you fight tankier and more optimized builds, mesmer simply can’t keep up the way it is right now, and that’s not good. Yes, that singularity of mesmer non-viability doesn’t actually hit until that very top level, but the compression of how well you can perform compared to other classes absolutely comes into play. If I were equally skilled on warrior or ele as I am on mesmer, it would be far easier to carry and control matches, and I personally think that’s an awful thing that really needs to be fixed, hopefully in this expansion.

Pyro to the rescue.

Trait placement and effects (along with a huge gulf between the amazing and useless traits) is definitely the core problem.

What do you feel the Mesmer is currently lacking ATM? Please don’t use general terms like “damage” without elaborating for what game mode and why you feel this way.

• A decent ability to swap builds around, and get reasonable results. Namely, the entire Deceptive Evasion biz. This totally screws build diversity, since any (non-phant) Mesmer is typically running with 4 points less to work with.
• Another large issue is the lack of proportion between mainhand and offhand weaponry. Mesmer absolutely requires another MH. Also, Scepter 1/3 could use some speedboosting. MH Sword’s taken some hits as well (BF double-nerf, ILeap wackiness).

What game mode (PvP, WvW, PvE Open World/Dungeons) do you feel Mesmer currently excels in the most? Least?

• Most: Solo-to-smallscale WvW, PvP
• Least: Zerg events (The curse of needing AI for main damage …)

Without reworking anything, what minor adjustments would you make to any of our weapons/utilities/traits to make them more viable?

• My “reworks” would mainly be un-nerfing some of what ANet panic-nerfed (With the drop in Confusion dmg, did Blinding Befuddlement need a beating? No. Nor did Chaos Storm and Armor. You see the point …)

Is there anything that would make you stop playing Mesmer? If you’ve stopped what would draw you back?

• TBH, the Glamour nerf-a-thon kept me outta purple for a good month. Anything else that ill-considered? I may have to go H.A.M. as a Thief.
  As for what’d bring me back … it’s not complicated. At least act like you have an overall plan for Mesmer. It’s the sheer wackiness of things that offends.

What has damaged your faith in the devs? Is there any faith remaining? What would have to happen to earn back your trust?

• Too many ill-considered, reactionary nerfs. Not just on Mesmers, but in general it makes me wonder if the balance team has been the same since launch. My faith, as it were, is at a low ebb. For that to change, I would have to see consistency in balancing, and balancing done with logic per gamemode. As it is, there are too many things that if nerfed in PvP, will be fine there … but crap in WvW or PvE. The scales and numbers of attackers are too different.

What is your one (reasonable) Mesmer wish?
Hmmm … replacement of crap traits (Disrupter’s, any “downed” B.S.).

All my statements are from a PvE or WvW(GvG) point of view!

What do you feel the Mesmer is currently lacking ATM? Please don’t use general terms like “damage” without elaborating for what game mode and why you feel this way.

• PvE: Sustainable damage. The mesmer is bound to phantasms to sustain his dps. It is very hard to keep them up against enemies with cleave or massive AoEs.
  Examples from dungeons: Slick’s oil debuff; Laser beams in the Aetherblade Fractal; Horrik’s Canon; CoF P1 boss’s burn AoE; Arah’s Giganticus Lupicus; …
• WvW: AoE which is not bound to Illusions! At the moment mesmers in wvw have two roles: Focus group and Veilbots. Both are not really fun to play and the least rewarding jobs within an organized WvW group.
  As a mesmer you do not have really good options to be viable or the group AND be able to tag all the enemies. You’ll be only focusing other backliners. Wich does not really give you much loot.
  If we try to place AoE on a zerg we have 2 skills: Mind stab and Chaos Storm.
  Next problem with us in WvW is combo finishers! We lack of Explosion finishers. We really do.

What game mode (PvP, WvW, PvE Open World/Dungeons) do you feel Mesmer currently excels in the most? Least?

• Most: Roaming
• Least: Organized WvW, large scale PvE

Without reworking anything, what minor adjustments would you make to any of our weapons/utilities/traits to make them more viable?
Uhh long list…

• Sword:
  Revert BF cooldown nerf; revert iLeap “dead clone” fix
• Scepter:
  Speed up AA, buff Confusing Images cast time (3s cast time really? engi only needs a bomb/1 meele hit)
• GS:
  Make mind stab a combo finisher explosion. Lower cooldown of Mind Stab to 10s, iZerker to 15s and iWave to 25s, increase iWave damage (x3)
• Staff
  Increase AA velocity and dmg, lower Phase Retreat CD to 8s, lower iWarlock cooldown to 15s, lower Chaos Armor CD to 20s lower Chaos Storm cooldown to 25s, make the first tick of Chaos Storm be always a daze and aegis
• Focus
  Lower Temporal Curtain CD to 20s and make it stack, decrease Into the Void CD from 1 to 1/2s
• Torch
  lower iMage cooldown from 30s to 20s
• This much for the weapons I’ll come back later to add the rest. (and yes DE also is one point on my list :P)

Is there anything that would make you stop playing Mesmer? If you’ve stopped what would draw you back?

• Only Quit. I tried to play different classes but I didn’t like to play them. Maybe I quit the game when HoT is a dissapointment.

What has damaged your faith in the devs? Is there any faith remaining? What would have to happen to earn back your trust?

• Nerfs. The nerfs that were either not needed (iLeap, BF, …) or completly destroyed our builds/skills/traits (glamour, power block, …)

What is your one (reasonable) Mesmer wish?

• Bypass stability in some way.

1. getting rid of distance 900 limitations. mesmer is 1200 or closecombat. evrything else makes no sense at all
2. give mesmer one source of run speed buff which doesnt rely on randomness
3. make greatsword 1 pure singledamage
4. make greatsword 2 to spawn phantasms not clones
5. make full mantra builds versatile

last and overall main wish: faster weapon swap trait would fit into mesmer playstyle

jportell.2197:

Pyro’s post about the current state of mesmer is pretty accurate. The game has been out for so long that almost every build has been tested in most levels of PvP. Pretty much at the top end everything except shatter is found wanting in some respect.

Agreed, most builds are tried but I would argue if they’re tested. Trying it for a couple hours doesn’t count no matter how good one is. It can take a week or longer playing a build to really get it down and realize its true effectiveness in the hands of a good player. This is only the first step. Next you take that build and theorize how it could work in a team comp. I think that’s the part missing. Players try a build for a couple hours, deem it not viable and throw it in the pile.

I’m not discounting the ability of a player detecting a good or bad build. That first filter must be there. I however think builds are given up on too quickly without being fully explored. So yes, 95% of builds have been tried but not fully explored in a team comp. I’d love for someone to tell me otherwise but doubt anyone will be able to.

On top of all this, each major balance update requires additional scrutiny on builds previously panned. I don’t doubt that the meta builds are obviously looked at, but likely not many others where some possibilities could certainly exist.

What we’re left with is mesmer being analyzed only with shatter in mind instead of fully exploring (not just trying) other possibilities. This is speaking only about the top tier. In anything but that we have really good build diversity in spite of the DE issue (which I agree with) constantly raised on the forums.

I’ll qualify all this with a dose of reality. I believe there is some truth to my comments but not saying a whole new meta would be discovered. I do however think there’s a decent chance of at least one viable build being discovered.

skcamow.3527:

I’ll qualify all this with a dose of reality. I believe there is some truth to my comments but not saying a whole new meta would be discovered. I do however think there’s a decent chance of at least one viable build being discovered.

Well I know I found Phantrupt Asskicker back at the end of last November. Now we’re in March and I’ve not seen anything genuinely new posted (though even someone like Stickerhappy put together a condi/support/bunk/whatever that might have serve) How long had it been before November? Because at that time until the HoT announcements the Mesmer forum was just about near dead irregardless of new builds being posted and discussed. That’s not to say people arent out there running whatever takes their fancy, but there is something to be said between a build that captures the minds and excites the community, and one that receives nothing but criticism- constructive or otherwise.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

• What do you feel the Mesmer is currently lacking ATM?

The ability to choose a playstyle and have every single skill on my bar support my chosen style.

Every single mesmer is required to take phantasms and the exact same four shatter skills, despite both of them being polar opposite playstyles. You cannot become an interrupt mesmer without carrying around vestigial illusion mechanics, and you can’t choose between shatters and phantasms without the other cluttering your bar. Mesmers just don’t have enough trait points to make both of their mandatory mechanics effective, nor can they spec into something else without leaving their two different illusion mechanics underpowered.

We should be able to choose our playstyles and have the mechanics support us 100%. There is absolutely no logical reason for anything less.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

• What is your one (reasonable) Mesmer wish?

Separate Phantasm and Shatters through the specialization system.

The default Shattercaster Mesmer should have the ability to choose which shatters they bring along (allowing wonderful mayhem such kittenters that torment, chill, create pulsing AoE pools, grant you stealth, immobilize the enemy, etc). Deceptive Evasion should become an innate property of the class, not a trait, and they should also consider allowing all weapons to use the Scepter’s “clone after X attacks” power.

The Dreamweaver Mesmer should be a completely separate specialization aimed towards bringing the enemy’s greatest nightmares to life. They should have a pool of possible phantasm choices on the F1-F4 keys geared around punishment, just like the hexes of GW1. Along with phantams that maintain constant effects, the dreamweaver should have utilities that let them manipulate these illusions to skillfully navigate the environment. For example, a utility that grants all your phantasms distortion for a few seconds would allow well timed counters to huge boss AoEs, and the power to destroy all your phantasms and resummon them on a new target would make life so much simpler.

Along with the Chronomancer, we should eventually see other specializations geared directly towards other classic playstyles. Interrupts deserve their own specialization, for example, geared towards dazing, stunning, boon stealing, and every other form of stopping the enemy in their tracks and stealing their precious energy to fuel your own spells.

skcamow.3527:

Agreed, most builds are tried but I would argue if they’re tested. Trying it for a couple hours doesn’t count no matter how good one is. It can take a week or longer playing a build to really get it down and realize its true effectiveness in the hands of a good player. This is only the first step. Next you take that build and theorize how it could work in a team comp. I think that’s the part missing. Players try a build for a couple hours, deem it not viable and throw it in the pile.

I really think you’re drastically overestimating the amount of time it takes to determine the effectiveness of a build. If you don’t have knowledge of other builds, then sure. However, you can use pre-existing build knowledge to rapidly characterize how a new build will perform.

Start: What does the build do and how does it do it? If condition damage, if power damage, if bunker, if support. Depending on which of those 4 it falls into, you can already determine what overall role it will play in a party.

How does it accomplish the previously determined classification? If interrupt, if clone death, if shatter, if phantasm, if mantra, if signet, if glamour. Based on which of those, you already now know how it actually will respond and handle different situations, how it plays.

Those 2 sets of classifications and conclusions are really all you need to take a build that’s “new” and figure out how it will work. All of these things have been done before, all of these types of doing things and different things of doing have been explored and tested. “New” builds just combine different ones in different ways.

For example, Ross’ build is a variation on power damage -> phantasm -> interrupt that first popped up from stickerhappy’s build ages ago. It uses slightly different traits and whatnot to accomplish it, but it plays in a very similar fashion and is similarly effective. I didn’t need to play it for weeks and weeks to know in a general fashion how it would function and how it would hold up in PvP.

So overall…no, you don’t need to play builds for weeks to see how they’re actually going to work. No, there aren’t any hidden gems out there that people just haven’t discovered that ‘one weird trick’ to make them super effective in PvP. Things are how they seem, and any build can be easily and effectively analysed given enough knowledge and experience of pre-existing builds.

Edit: And major balance updates? Don’t make me laugh. Mesmer hasn’t gotten anything major in years. The only notable positive change in the past several years was maim getting buffed to the point that it can actually be used now, that’s it.

Fay.2357:

Edit: And major balance updates? Don’t make me laugh. Mesmer hasn’t gotten anything major in years. The only notable positive change in the past several years was maim getting buffed to the point that it can actually be used now, that’s it.

By balance updates I meant the feature pack updates like runes and sigils that were modified enough to warrant another look at all existing builds even remotely viable.

Don’t really agree with you on the rest, c’est la vie.

What do you feel the Mesmer is currently lacking ATM?

PvE: Reliance on illusions and shattering really kitten us in this mode.

WvW: Again, illusions are our main crutch. Since illusions die very fast in zergs we basically have only 3 skills and utilities to work with. That leaves mesmer with clean up duty or roaming.

PvP: There’s only two ways to play in this mode an interrupt build or a burst build. Both of which have a severely encumbering skill cap, imo. Additionally, our active defenses are kitten poor. The mesmer stealth nerf took our unique stealth (our stealth didn’t stack but you also didn’t suffer revealed state) and put us in-line with thief stealth. Mesmers have very limited stealth options and we don’t even have any smoke fields or blast finishers, even if we had them. Honestly, they should removed stealth from mesmer instead of the crap we have now. So teleports and interrupts are all we can rely on. Unfortunately, teleports are getting nerfed. If you aren’t an interrupt build you’ll probably have 2-3 interrupts, including Diversion which is pretty sad since they nerfed if back in beta.

What game mode (PvP, WvW, PvE Open World/Dungeons) do you feel Mesmer currently excels in the most? Least?

I’d have to say mesmers excel in spvp but they don’t get very far unless you have a team set up to support YOU, the mesmer.

Without reworking anything, what minor adjustments would you make to any of our weapons/utilities/traits to make them more viable?

I’ll go ahead and be short about this. The rework needs to be done, no questions asked. I still don’t understand why Anet decided to drift from hexes and replace them with this sub par mechanic of illusions. The mesmer shouldn’t be a pet class at all.

Is there anything that would make you stop playing Mesmer? If you’ve stopped what would draw you back?

I’m pretty sure Anet has looked over the festering wound that is the mesmer and has looked into the abyss that is the mesmer forums. Them knowing “what’s really going on” and still beating this class with a spiked club on HoT release would make me quit. I don’t think there’s a thing that could make me come back to playing mesmer cause I’d probably have to wait 2 -3 years for an actual rework to take place.

What has damaged your faith in the devs? Is there any faith remaining? What would have to happen to earn back your trust? Again, please no general statements like “a lot of nerfs.”

Oh man, nothing rings in my head more than the nerf to Prismatic Understanding by adding might and swiftness to the pool of boons you could receive in stealth. Before that there was the scepter/confusion nerf that left scepter in a void for ages. Another thing that got me was the reflect nerf making some projectiles un-reflectable. I mean what’s the point of even carrying reflect skills if they are half-baked? Here’s another, switching out Deceptive Evasion for Sharper Images in the master minor slot in Dueling. Pretty much made DE mandatory for a lot of builds. Anet just can’t seem to get it right when it comes to mesmer…. Nothing short of a complete rework of mesmer will get me to believe in Anet a little bit more.

What is your one (reasonable) Mesmer wish?

Like I’ve been saying throughout the post… They need to revisit the idea or the concept of the mesmer and possibly give it the same treatment as the thief and revenant… Meh… it’s probably unreasonable…

I play Mesmer in PvE and PvP modes.

The number one thing I find lacking is in the clones. They don’t survive well enough to reach the target reliably when shattering. When they do survive, they don’t target worth a kitten. Shatter is the build that captures my imagination but I end up playing condi /clone death in Pvp because I know my clones will die en masse.

The phantasms also are too weak both in “hit points” and damage.

Mesmer doesn’t excel in any game mode. I can run dungeons that I know well as a Mesmer. On the other hand, I can run any class when I know the dungeon well.

Reworks? there are so many.

The number one thing that reduced my faith in the devs was when Power Block was almost instantly nerfed. Around the same time, Hambow wars were rolling unchecked over most PvP matches and it took months to fix those.

It made me think that the devs specifically dislike Mesmer.

One reasonable wish? Make clones tougher and make them mimic the Mesmer’s movements. Oh and make them seek the target when shatter is invoked

Mesmer is perhaps the best dungeon utility class in the game but is increasingly less useful as anything other than a condition spec in pvp imo and conditions are either outright op or easily countered. Mesmerizing solo lupicous in less time than a 5 warrior team. Shatter is the only optimal build and in my experience interrupts and lockdown have too little reward even in www where mass interrupts are possible. Reasonable wish is for members to have more lucrative interrupts as lockdown etc can be hard countered by stab. Requiring members to run heavy boon rip and lessening survivability against foes by removing other utilities. Just the way I see the state of mesmerizing in pvp. Btw condi mesmer is the strongest condi spec as of now… it even tops condi thief against anything other than condi specs with reasonable cleanse… also known as condi thieves. Make distortion block projectiles etc that begin before distortion but do not land before it begins if that isn’t fixed already.

• notes
  I don’t play standard shatter and other builds work… but shatter will always be optimal burst dps meta… I run wacky mantra variants and other builds I don’t want to put out because these forums …. pm me in game if you want a wacky build :p

@chaosarchangel what’s this about getting the same treatment as thief ? You want us to get continual nerfs again ?

Sadrien.3470:

@chaosarchangel what’s this about getting the same treatment as thief ? You want us to get continual nerfs again ?

When Anet nerfs Thief they come out stronger: sans Initiative Nerf 2014

Lo ;D

Lol………………….minimumlengthreq…..

Sadrien.3470:

Lol………………….minimumlengthreq…..

When Anet fixes Mesmer, we get nerfed: sans iLeap “fix” 2014

cough

……wheeze

Ross Biddle.2367:

Sadrien.3470:

Lol………………….minimumlengthreq…..

When Anet fixes Mesmer, we get nerfed: sans iLeap “fix” 2014

cough

……wheeze

Not just Mesmer getting screwed, there. #DSOverflowFix

• (As for the idea of Thief getting nerfed and coming back stronger … trust me, it just seems that way because Thief can still burst decently. Then you play one for a while and notice crap like: most of yer traps bite, most of your utils in general are nonexistant underwater, ANet keeps trying to shove Venoms down yer bloody throat…
  Hell, whoever thought of those should be forced to run a V-share Thief for a month or two.)
• Anyway, it just seems that there is a large breech between the ideas ANet had for each profession, and the reality of how they operate in the wild. Yet again, they honestly need two things:
  1. Repeat after me: Public. Test. Realm.
  2. Let us not forget to chant: Skill-splits between PvP/PvE.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

• What do you feel the Mesmer is currently lacking ATM?

I don’t think that there is one thing we lack. Several things tie in together.

• Overall low untraited damage. Mesmers are too reliant on traits to achieve a level of damage which could compete with the damage of other classes.
• Too few survivability options outside of deceiving mechanics (Clones, Stealth) which leave us as an unfavourable class in many parts of the game.
• Too inefficient in large scale fights due to our class mechanic and underperforming area effects (Glamours or Mantras).
• Most importantly: We lack a balanced baseline resource generation for our mechanic.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

What game mode (PvP, WvW, PvE Open World/Dungeons) do you feel Mesmer currently excels in the most? Least?

Most: Probably roaming and duelling. Not that we are best at it, though.
Least: Open world anything. Anything with area damage.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Without reworking anything, what minor adjustments would you make to any of our weapons/utilities/traits to make them more viable?

I can’t really think of minor adjustments which would help. Of course, there could always be small buffs but the things which do not work properly or need a change probably won’t be fixed with minor adjustments.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

• Is there anything that would make you stop playing Mesmer? If you’ve stopped what would draw you back?

I will stop playing my Mesmer when I stop playing GW2. However, I already stopped playing certain content with my Mesmer. Either I feel like a burden or just not efficient enough so I’d rather switch to one of my toons.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

What has damaged your faith in the devs? Is there any faith remaining? What would have to happen to earn back your trust? Again, please no general statements like “a lot of nerfs.”

The devs did many things I didn’t like. They also did few changes to Mesmers I actually enjoyed. I wouldn’t say my faith is damaged since I feel that the devs improved when it comes to overall balancing across all classes. However, I’m very dissatisfied with the slow cycle of class changes they commited themselves to. It bores me.

I didn’t change my solo PvP builds since I came up with it 1.5 years ago. Even though there have been some changes which weakened the build. This is solely due to the fact that I don’t feel they introduced significant improvements or anything intriguing to Mesmers when it comes to PvP. In PvE I made slight adjustments to my builds but it’s not like you need any special build there unless you are doing speedruns.

I need new toys to play with. HoT’d better be good for Mesmers.
I need more frequent class changes.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

What is your one (reasonable) Mesmer wish?

I want DE to be incorporated into our class mechanic. This trait single handedly cripples our class and limits build diversity significantly. Maybe this is unrealistic. But it most certainly is reasonable.

What do you feel the Mesmer is currently lacking ATM?

Someone in ANet that actually understands the class.

What game mode (PvP, WvW, PvE Open World/Dungeons) do you feel Mesmer currently excels in the most? Least?

Mesmer doesn’t excel in any game mode.

The utility we bring in PvP is often not enough to justify bringing a mesmer in the team.

Our WvW contribution is severely limited because our core mechanic (clones/phantasms/shatters) doesn’t work in big groups.

In dungeons, our dps is disappointing, although we have decent support (mostly for some fractals).

Without reworking anything, what minor adjustments would you make to any of our weapons/utilities/traits to make them more viable?

Weapons

• Reduce the number of hits on blurred frenzy (maybe even upgrading the damage), so we don’t kill ourselves with retaliation
• Increase phantasmal warlock projectile speed by 20 to 30%. Make the phantasm spawn and attack from max range.
• Reduce the cooldown on chaos storm and chaos armor
• Reduce the pre-cast and cast time of Confusing Images
• Fix temporal curtain swiftness application, could it be so hard?
• Lower Into the void cooldown to 0.5 seconds
• Increase phantasmal mage projectile speed by 50% and reduce the skill cooldown to 20 seconds to bring it in line with the other phantasms

Sword 3 needs a rework to function as a proper gap closer/immobilize without relying on a clone that will be obliterated in any group fight.

Skills

• Lower the cooldown for arcane thievery and fix the skill so it doesn’t get obstructed by small pebbles or things like that
• Lower the cooldown for Null Field to 35s, lower its duration to 3 seconds and increase it’s efficiency, stripping 2 random boons/condis per pulse (6 total)
• Give a proper range indicator to portal
• Increase duration (4s) and radius (600) for Power Break
• Increase radius (600) for Power Cleanse
• Lower Mantra of Distraction cooldown to 25s base
• Lower Phantasmal Defender cooldown to 25s to bring it in line with other phantasms
• Lower cast time on Mass Invisibility and increase the player limit to 20 (it’s an elite after all)

I’m sorry, but I can’t think of anything short of a rework to fix our signets and mimic.

(continues)

Traits

• Increase the damage contribution from Wastrel’s Punishment to 7 or 10% (or rework it)
• Bring back Power Block as it was designed, before the thieves cried themselves to sleep (for 1 day)
• Make Mantra mastery also reduce the cast time by .5 seconds
• Make Protected Mantras grant protection for 3 seconds with 3 second ICD or Aegis for 1 second with 3 seconds ICD
• Fix Duelist’s Discipline so that the phantasm actually uses the increased range
• Lower the cooldown on Mirror of Anguish to 20 or 30 seconds (it’s a master trait with VERY good alternatives)
• Chaotic Interruption: make it apply Immobilize, Chill and Slow (grand master that only works on an interrupt!)
• Increase the duration for Vengeful Images or make it permanent like it was before, it’s not like our phantasms have huge health pools anyway
• Increase the health bonus for Persisting Images to 50 or 100%
• Warden’s Feedback: fix the reflect height on Temporal Curtain
• Restorative Illusions: make it provide AoE heal centered on the mesmer, double the amount healed (it’s a grand master trait in a traitline completely not involved with shatter builds, I want a really good reason to take it)
• Buff Shattered Strength to grant at least 2 stacks per illusion. You’re sacrificing your resources, and it’s a big investment in the traitline. Idea for a rework: grant 1 stack on shatter and 2 stacks for each clone that actually lands the shatter.
• Make Dazzling Glamours pulse 1s blind every second inside our glamours
• Lower Illusionary Invigoration cooldown to 40s
• Remove the ICD from Blinding Befuddlement

In need of rework: Rending Shatter (way too weak), Sharper Images and Confusing Combatants (why are these in a crit/crit damage/phantasm traitline?), Blurred Inscriptions and Cleansing Inscriptions (along with a full Signet rework), Chaotic Revival (meh), Retaliatory Demise (more meh), Bountiful Disillusionment (SUPER meh), Phantasmal Strength (why is it in this traitline?!), Vigorous Revelation (boon sharing mesmer is not a thing, don’t try to force it), Temporal Enchanter (this is tricky: I would want for Feedback to last longer, but I would want for Null Field to be more efficient – stripping more boons per pulse, and for Portal to have an increased number of charges…), Shattered Conditions (very nice trait, but requires so much investment in the wrong traitline), Disruptor’s Sustainment (possibly the worst designed trait in game), Phantasmal Haste (move it to some phantasm oriented traitline like Dueling or Inspiration and increase the effect to 50%), Imbued Diversion (base diversion should be AoE)

Is there anything that would make you stop playing Mesmer? If you’ve stopped what would draw you back?

The day I wouldn’t be able to provide any utility anymore to my WvW guild, I would stop playing mesmer (and probably the game).

What has damaged your faith in the devs? Is there any faith remaining? What would have to happen to earn back your trust? Again, please no general statements like “a lot of nerfs.”

What has damaged my faith in the devs is not the number of nerfs, but the quality of the nerfs we got: many of them were way too punishing (double nerf on Glamours/Confusion, double nerf on Blurred Frenzy, nerf to Power block against thieves), some others denoted that ANet doesn’t really understand the class (nerf to Sword Swap, focus pull, etc), while some of the buffs are – frankly – quite silly, like the buff to confusion in a power/zerk dominated PVE.

What is your one (reasonable) Mesmer wish?

Wellllll they could start fixing all our bugs and useless skills/traits… wait, you said “reasonable”.
I “reasonably” hope the specialization will bring some changes to the core mechanics so we won’t be so dependent on our illusions.

I’m hoping chronomancer removes the clones and shatters and has a much lower skill floor, because 1k hours and reading every guide available with minimal improvement? That’s a joke. I could be good with any of the meta classes with that investment.

I’d love a stronger Wastrel’s Punishment. Basically make up for some of the strength you lose by not going full-deep in Illusions.

(Would it hurt build variety in PvE, though?)

I have played mesmer since launch and have played all game modes wvw, pvp, and pve. I have recently gotten into team queue spvp and high level fractals/dungeon speed runs. Even though mesmer is my favorite class and I have 3 of them I have been struggling to keep playing it in current metas. “bring your ele” for pve/pvp. or pretty much any other class for pvp. And if we ever get another mesmer player in our pvp group I always switch, because stacking mesmers is genereally not a great idea in pvp….anyways on to the questions!

• What do you feel the Mesmer is currently lacking ATM? Please don’t use general terms like “damage” without elaborating for what game mode and why you feel this way.

Role/build diversity in Spvp, role/utility diversity in zerging in wvw, reliable phantasm or weapon damage in pve(dungeons, fractals, new LS instances, and open world bosses), movespeed signet/trait for out of combat situations.

• What game mode (PvP, WvW, PvE Open World/Dungeons) do you feel Mesmer currently excels in the most? Least?

Most- I guess wvw roaming or small group play, low tier spvp

OK- high tier spvp, dungeons, low level fractals, open world bosses I guess

Least- wvw zerging, high level fractals, solo LS instances(though I enjoy soloing all the living story stuff on my mesmer over other classes because it’s more fun to me, some of the new boss mechanics are NOT phantasm friendly)

• Without reworking anything, what minor adjustments would you make to any of our weapons/utilities/traits to make them more viable?

alot of people have already mentioned the revert nerfs to 1hand sword

Greatsword- blast finisher on #3(actually mind stab is something that has improved so kudos), a chain to the GS auto or something to get rid of the stow weapon crap in pvp.

Far reaching Manipulations- just make all manipulations 1200 range by default this is seriously so limiting in spvp and it really doesn’t make sense to even have a trait for this.

we have so many “almost there” specs, just barely not working because our traits are terribly blobbed into grandmasters. Like mantras for example, does empowering mantras really need to be a grandmaster? we also have 3 grandmasters in 3 different lines dealing with interrupt, and yes interrupt IS one of the most rewarding builds out there that is working, but do we really need interrupt traits in 3 different lines?

• Is there anything that would make you stop playing Mesmer? If you’ve stopped what would draw you back?

I will probably always play mesmer to some degree. What’s enticing me is the new specialization.

• What has damaged your faith in the devs? Is there any faith remaining? What would have to happen to earn back your trust? Again, please no general statements like “a lot of nerfs.”

There was one Living Story instance in Hidden Arcana where you are fighting the Facet of Light and you get one shot unless you get the color attunement. After getting the attunement my heart kind of sank when I went in to “dps” the boss and my iWarden is dead on arrival, didn’t even land a single bit of dps before dying. And here I am getting all kittened off and what do I see? My kittening mini pet has the kittening invulnerable aura buff, the same one that I have, yet my phantasms, pretty much all of my dps, gets insta one shot. It was at that moment I realized mesmers were the last thing the devs thought of. I mean they sat around and decided to make our mini pets invulnerable to the one shot, but not our phantasms?

• What is your one (reasonable) Mesmer wish?

powerblocking thieves.

• What do you feel the Mesmer is currently lacking ATM?

Large Wvw: confusion time warp and blurred fenzy nerfs made mesmers poor veil bots
Roaming: acceptable but low mobility and hard countered by thieves
Pvp: not worth a thief(out of meta for close to 2 years)
Pve: all prof work…not worth mentioning

• What game mode (PvP, WvW, PvE Open World/Dungeons) do you feel Mesmer currently excels in the most? Least?
  Mesmers excel nowhere…not even close to excel (see above)

• Without reworking anything, what minor adjustments would you make to any of our weapons/utilities/traits to make them more viable?
  4 stacks of confusion with confusion trait (like warrior trait) instead of one would make mesmer more desirable in large wvw.
  Revert to blured fenzy nerf would also be welcomed.

• Is there anything that would make you stop playing Mesmer? If you’ve stopped what would draw you back?
  I stopped mesmer one year ago…and it was a blast to feel desirable again …with a role I performed well.
  I make sometimes some pvp games with it…but it does not last

• What has damaged your faith in the devs? Is there any faith remaining? What would have to happen to earn back your trust? Again, please no general statements like “a lot of nerfs.”

Unwished nerfs on an already sub-par profession is something I can not get.
All experimented players have the same feed-back and devs keep pushing the rampant dominating professions. It sounds to me unbelievable bur they keep doing it.
Honestly I feel they don’t care at all about mesmer and I am pretty sure their only focus is now on how to make revenant OP as hell.
After some years we will be back to normal and mesmers will still be where they are now : out.
Maybe I am wrong…I hope I am mistaking…but past did nor give me any fact that could bring confidence.

• What is your one (reasonable) Mesmer wish?

Grouch playing mesmer as main…only thing that could make thing change.
But in the current state of the mesmer I fear this is not a reasonable wish.