Guild Wars 2

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAse7ancfClphdqB2oBEgilcjqMAStWreVn1bF92KpcA-TJRHwAJLDQ+JAA4kAEa/BA

So here I was poking around looking at our grandmasters, and I thought it might be worth it to look back at Mistrust as a potentially viable gm to use. It’s a particularly underwhelming trait in most instances. Less of a need for Deceptive Evasion thanks to Chronomancer might however open up doors to using this gm. Did the devs have this in mind for this trait?

Highlights:

• Frequent blocks on Scepter/Shield = blinds/confusion
• Potential for clutch clone generation via IR, Chronophantasm and Mirror Images
• Decent uptime on recharging of skills and clone generation. Interrupting keeps pDuelist up. Shattering gives Alacrity. Wells give Alacrity. Shattering phantasms knocks off 2s of your phantasm recharge.
• Keeping enemies on most points frequently confused via dodging/blocks/shatters/interrupts. Essentially, any action you’re taking will be confusing the enemy team.

Drawbacks:

• Interrupting relies on lack of stability. This build has no boon strip.
• If you’re in a bind for clones, you can’t rely on simply dodging.
• No reliable condi clear except for Well of Eternity.
• Necessity to fight in melee-mid range most of the time can be dangerous with no clear defenses.

Just something to chew on for my fellow condi users while we wait for BWE3. Constructive criticism encouraged!!!

Not sure if well alacrity is that useful in your trait.

Even though your build is more phantasm based, but landing shatter for the condie burst is always important for any condie mesmer these days. So I will definitely pick clone super speed shatter over well alacrity.

You may also want to test out which is better between improved alacrity and illusionary reversion.

Same for deceptive evasion and mistrust. Not sure which is better even when you rely on phantasm damage a lot.

I was thinking IR would be good after shattering both Mirror Images and Deja Vu. With condi shatter, you need a lot of clone generation, because you shatter more often.

Same for deceptive evasion and mistrust. Not sure which is better even when you rely on phantasm damage a lot.

Maybe you didn’t read my post or are confused but… the build is supposed to be based around the inclusion of Mistrust. XD

Mistrust looks like an amazing trait, but it’s tough to be in the same tier with DE.

But looks like an interesting build. I’d try it with Master of Fragmentation too and see if it’s worth the tradeoff.

I think you’ve found a way to have good clone uptime without DE, which is good. However that lack of condi cleanse is going to get this build killed. What you don’t need is mirror images, so do the smart thing right now and swap it out for mantra cleanse.

Also how married to Krait runes are you? You could just bite the bullet and go Melandru, or Hoelbrak. That way you have -45% condi duration on cripple/chill/imob, which should keep you out of trouble (and you lose kitten all condition damage, not counting the applications). That way you can save your cleanses for burns or other condi bursts.

MailMail.6534:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAse7ancfClphdqB2oBEgilcjqMAStWreVn1bF92KpcA-TJRHwAJLDQ+JAA4kAEa/BA

I tried a similar build during the last beta test. Found one or two things wrong with the build.

1, Well of Eternity, not too comfortable with it. In PVE it was ok but in pvp where i was getting heavy bust on me, it wasn’t too go. Necros, eles just drop there condi on top of it. Making me an easy pray.
2, Gravity Well, as good as it is, after the first plus, a good player just get out of it unless you lock them down, stun them or fight in it. Although I still include it in my finial build, I only use it coming from stealth when i can suprise, stun and bust very fast on the poor player.
3, Mistrust helps a lot with confusion stacking but but not as much and DE when you can generate clones and just shatter like a kitten.

Below is what i was testing.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAse7anknBNqhdqBOoBEgilcjqMAStep+Vn1bF9HKpcA-TJBBABAcSAc+JAs1+DiVGAA

a variation is using sigil of torment on both weapons. With this torment was hitting close to 2k.

Noss.4105:

But looks like an interesting build. I’d try it with Master of Fragmentation too and see if it’s worth the tradeoff.

I always take Ineptitude over MF. I like the survivability it adds with its blind being on a single-target CD. Power builds aside, since this is a condition spec, I’d take this trait purely for the long duration confusion application.

Ross Biddle.2367:

I think you’ve found a way to have good clone uptime without DE, which is good. However that lack of condi cleanse is going to get this build killed. What you don’t need is mirror images, so do the smart thing right now and swap it out for mantra cleanse.

This is what I was worried about! >_< And you know me Ross, I alway take some form of condition clear in all my builds. lol Yeah, I’ve never really used Mirror Images outside of testing. I figured this would be another reliable way of clone generation, but your idea might be better.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Also how married to Krait runes are you? You could just bite the bullet and go Melandru, or Hoelbrak. That way you have -45% condi duration on cripple/chill/imob, which should keep you out of trouble (and you lose kitten all condition damage, not counting the applications). That way you can save your cleanses for burns or other condi bursts.

Ahh I actually wanted Nightmare runes slotted instead of Krait for the extra condi duration on both bleeds and confusion, but this rune choice is something I didn’t think about. I love having Time Marches On, because it opens up so many rune choices for me personally. The 45% reduction sounds absolutely delightful. Losing out on condi duration and a little extra condi dmg might not be too bad. I think I’d go with Melandru as I can take advantage of all it has to offer.

Thanks for the very helpful advice you two!

Blades of Sabatine.5639:

1, Well of Eternity, not too comfortable with it. In PVE it was ok but in pvp where i was getting heavy bust on me, it wasn’t too go. Necros, eles just drop there condi on top of it. Making me an easy pray.

Yeah, this is an obvious issue with the build. Ideally, you’d want to stay mid range as you have better targeting for Tides of Time, but shattering with condi is always best in melee range.

Blades of Sabatine.5639:

2, Gravity Well, as good as it is, after the first plus, a good player just get out of it unless you lock them down, stun them or fight in it. Although I still include it in my finial build, I only use it coming from stealth when i can suprise, stun and bust very fast on the poor player.

Well this is two-fold. I think Mesmer has some pretty strong AOEs like Nullfield and Timewarp. You have a dual benefit in pvp where they either stand on the point and eat it or they get off the point and let you slowly cap/decap the point. You win either way.

Blades of Sabatine.5639:

3, Mistrust helps a lot with confusion stacking but but not as much and DE when you can generate clones and just shatter like a kitten.

I was up last night theorizing about this, but was too tired to actually think harder about which option would give you more confusion application. Considering you have MoD, Tides of Time, Diversion and Magic Bullet, that’s a total of 4 interrupts with some of them possibly interrupt more than once. Shattering is always aoe confusion, but where I think Mistrust shines is its longer duration and stacks. It makes it easier to actually stack confusion which as we know can potentially the strongest condi in the game (see WvW roaming).

Blades of Sabatine.5639:

Below is what i was testing.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAse7anknBNqhdqBOoBEgilcjqMAStep+Vn1bF9HKpcA-TJBBABAcSAc+JAs1+DiVGAA

a variation is using sigil of torment on both weapons. With this torment was hitting close to 2k.

Maybe I should put it in the title, but I’m trying desperately to theory craft a build that uses Mistrust. I guess the fact that no one is checking for it is proof of how garbage this trait is in pvp?! lol

With your build, specifically, I don’t think you need Mirror Images or S. Domination. Those could be saved for something with more utility like a condi clear, portal or Blink even over Decoy.

Thanks so much for your contribution. It helps that you’ve already testing something out similar to what I’m trying to do.

MailMail.6534:

Noss.4105:

But looks like an interesting build. I’d try it with Master of Fragmentation too and see if it’s worth the tradeoff.

I always take Ineptitude over MF. I like the survivability it adds with its blind being on a single-target CD. Power builds aside, since this is a condition spec, I’d take this trait purely for the long duration confusion application.

I prefer Ineptitude too, but considering you’re building around Mistrust the AoE Diversion could be devastating.

Updated build after feedback from my mesmerizing friends! It looks a little more refined and apt for mid range to melee combat with the condition clearing and additional resistance to CC.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAse7anknBlphFpB2oBEgilcjqMAStWr+Vn1bF92KpcA-TJRHwAp2fIZZAyPBAAnEAA

Noss.4105:

MailMail.6534:

Noss.4105:

But looks like an interesting build. I’d try it with Master of Fragmentation too and see if it’s worth the tradeoff.

I always take Ineptitude over MF. I like the survivability it adds with its blind being on a single-target CD. Power builds aside, since this is a condition spec, I’d take this trait purely for the long duration confusion application.

I prefer Ineptitude too, but considering you’re building around Mistrust the AoE Diversion could be devastating.

Very good point! I actually thought about this and was wondering if Staff would be better than sword/shield. When running Chaotic Interruption, I’ve seen many people get interrupted at the same time in Chaos Storm which could cause a lot of confusion. It also would add more overall condi dmg and a bit of defense as well, but I just like how awesome the blocks and clone generation is on shield.

I think MF is good for a burst of confusion while Ineptitude is the safer route with just a slow but steady stream of confusion. It could definitely be devastating like you say.

Oddly, I actually disagree with the recommendation of Time Catches Up.

With how hard you’re focusing on interrupts, and how necessary they are to the dps potential of Mistrust itself, I feel the synergistic effect of Delayed Reactions will serve you better, opening up more windows for interrupts to occur.

Plus, as you attempt to land more aoe interrupts, Delayed Reactions will spread slow aoe as well, which is pretty boss.

Lastly, the slow from delayed reactions serves as a much-needed cover condition, given you aren’t getting the condis from Chaotic Interruption or Winds of Chaos/Chaos Storm to help.

Interesting idea. I like the idea of scepter+Chrono to get a lot of Confusing Images uptime.

Chrono and Mistrust might work with Alacrity helping to increase interrupting instead of spamming clones for the shatter.

@Alpha, I thought exactly of this when I was theory crafting last night. In fact, I was originally going to take Delayed Reactions and Lost Time. You bring up great points of course, but my only concern was slow and its interaction with confusion on skill-usage.

The slow sounds really good in theory, but I’ll have to just test the numbers and see how it plays out. I feel like the slow traits are best for dps-based interrupt builds instead of ones relying on confusion/torment.

Time for some math!

It is true that Mistrust seems lackluster in its confusion application. I’d like to do some math to show you the real comparison between Mistrust and Deceptive Evasion.

Deceptive Evasion gives you 1 clone per dodge. At base rate, you can dodge once per 10s. At max rate, you can dodge twice per 10s.
Every clone gives you a specific benefit when shattered, depending on the shatter you use and the traits you have.

Let’s assume, for a moment, that you are a condi build with max endurance regen, and no shatter traits besides the Illusion tree minor (confusion on shatter). Let us also assume, contrary to fact, that you can manage to use every clone generated with DE as part of Cry of Frustration.
Let us also assume for simplicity that the only condition duration you have is the 33% on confusion duration from Illusions.

That means every clone from DE is worth 2 confusion at 4 seconds, or 8 confusion-seconds.
2 per 10s means 16 confusion-seconds every 10s, or 1.6 confusion stacks per second. CoF is aoe, so that’s 1.6 stacks per second on up to 5 targets.
This is the maximum potential contribution of confusion from Deceptive Evasion, assuming we have no other ways to gain endurance (such as sigil of energy).

Now Mistrust gives 2 stacks of confusion at 8 seconds per interrupt, or 16 confusion-seconds.
In order to hit 1.6 stacks per second, you need to interrupt one target once at least every 20s. This is also on up to 5 targets, so they’re technically even in aoe at this point.
This is not the maximum confusion potential of Mistrust. Interrupting more often, or interrupting more than one target, can increase the confusion applied dramatically

So to keep up with Deceptive Evasion in sustained confusions, at least, Mistrust only has to interrupt at most once every 20s.

What about cleanse?
Okay, let’s suppose that they had the same duration (if they always get cleansed at 4s, for example). That means we can ignore duration, and just focus on stack applications per second.

If you can drop both your clones in a single Cry of Frustration, you’ll get 8 stacks of confusion. At full alacrity, you can get that CoF once every 15s,
or 8/15 = .5333 stacks per second. Since that leaves us with 5s without a CoF, and we get a clone every 5s, we can use that extra clone on a Mind Wrack. So that’s another 2 confusion every 10s, or .2 stacks per second, for a total of .7333 stacks per second.

In order to get the same rate with interrupts, you have to interrupt on average once every 2.72 seconds. Or to put it another way, you have to get 3.7 interrupts every 10s (since we can get multiple interrupts, in theory).
That’s where shatters start to gain ground, as they allow more stacks at a shorter duration, while Mistrust relies more heavily on longer durations.

Additionally, there is the burst factor to consider.
Dodging for 2 illusions and hitting CoF gets you an immediate 4 confusion stacks.
In order to match that burst with Mistrust, you have to interrupt 2 people at once. That’s certainly possible, but it’s trickier and less reliable. Furthermore, CoF will always work the same way every time, each of our interrupts works slightly differently (Magic Bullet can proc 2 unpredictably, MoD can proc up to 5, Tides of Time can proc any number, but has a big tell and a positioning requirement, Diversion without MoF only gets one at a time, etc.).

So Mistrust in the hands of a smart mesmer always provides more sustained confusion than Deceptive Evasion, can provide more confusion application per second if you can interrupt 4 times every 11 seconds, and can only provide the same or better confusion burst if you interrupt 2 people at a time, or at least two separate interrupts within the amount of time it takes your illusions to run to the target (at super-speed).

What other issues are there?
1. Torment. With Maim the Disillusioned, every DE clone shattered applies 1 torment at 6s, so we get 12 stack seconds of torment every 10s, or 1.2 stacks per second of torment. It also ramps up the burst a bit more, putting even more pressure on Mistrust in the burst department.
2. You won’t always have double endurance regeneration. Any falloff in endurance regeneration drops DE relative to Mistrust.
3. You can sometimes gain a bunch of endurance at once. Sigil of Energy can get you an extra clone every 10s, which is a 50% increase in DE’s potency.
4. You won’t always use DE on CoF. Every time you use DE for MW, Diversion or Distortion, DE loses ground to Mistrust.
5. Condi duration. Extra condition duration gains ground for Mistrust in low-cleanse environments, and gains ground for DE in high-cleanse environments.
6. Clone death. Clones die, get cleaved, etc. Super-speed on shatters helps, but if you lose a clone after you dodge for it, you lose ground.
7. Dodging to create clones means you didn’t save your dodge for defense. This is a subtle point, but if you ever need to use a dodge for a defensive use, you’ve compromised the value of DE dps-wise, while interrupts are always used offensively by definition.
8. IR+CP might be enough. If you can get full illusions on every shatter without DE, DE is unnecessary. If you can at least get full illusions on every CoF, DE loses ground against Mistrust.
9. I realize they aren’t available in PvP, but…Runes of Perplexity do exist. And an interrupt build is definitely gonna be able to get more use out of them than a shatter build…

In summary of the above, I think the math supports this as a potentially viable concept. The greatest difficulty you face is cleanse, as Mistrust put more of its balance into condition duration than Cry of Frustration and Illusionary Retribution did.

Also, I love the idea of dropping Tides of Time onto a zerg with Mistrust active, and watching the confusion spread.

Thank you Alpha for Kormir blessing you with the gift of math and truth! This helps to put this theory of using Mistrust in better context when discussing its viability.

I’m looking forward to testing this out. I’ve always liked the idea of confusion as a pvper, but I’ve had to recognize its severe limitations on Mesmer for quite some time now. It’s worth saying that when comparing IR and CoF to Mistrust that there will be no absence of shattering in a Mistrust build.

Considering that I’m a pvp purist, I hope someone tests the idea in WvW and reports back. Confusion can be potentially pernicious in that game mode I’ve heard. I’m imagining Tides of Time literally stacking so much confusion on an entire zerg with one skill. Add MoD to that and… yikes!

MailMail.6534:

Thank you Alpha for Kormir blessing you with the gift of math and truth! This helps to put this theory of using Mistrust in better context when discussing its viability.

I’m looking forward to testing this out. I’ve always liked the idea of confusion as a pvper, but I’ve had to recognize its severe limitations on Mesmer for quite some time now. It’s worth saying that when comparing IR and CoF to Mistrust that there will be no absence of shattering in a Mistrust build.

Considering that I’m a pvp purist, I hope someone tests the idea in WvW and reports back. Confusion can be potentially pernicious in that game mode I’ve heard. I’m imagining Tides of Time literally stacking so much confusion on an entire zerg with one skill. Add MoD to that and… yikes!

Biggest problem I can see with tackling the zerg is that with Duel/Illu/Chrono, this build is gonna be soo frail…
Maybe csplit → drop off the wall → Tides the snot out of them → cshift back?

Bump for a well thought out build.

Having not delved too deep into this thread yet, this past weekend I put together all the Chronomancer builds I wanted to test in the last (sadly my first) BWE. A condirupt build based around mistrust was one of them. Currently we don’t have enough means to truly make that shine but it seems on paper that Chronomancer and Mistrust were meant for each other.

The build I came up with was 90% what you did. The disruption and condition spreading is going to be so intense it may be deemed OP. In my build I have five AoE interrupts (primarily because, as I know how great Ineptitude is, I could not pass up MoF for AoE diversion daze).

I also agree slow on interrupt is the way to go initially, but remains to be seen how slow interacts with confusion as you mentioned.

There are a couple other very minor differences, for instance I think carrion will be best for this build. For sure it will deal a whole lot more damage than rabid. Of course you’ll be more squishy but you’ll have a much larger health pool. I also went with scavenging runes which, when paired with leeching sigils on both weapon sets can prove to be decent sustain while dealing damage at the same time. Scavenging also gives a nice condition damage boost on vitality, which is sizable with the carrion amulet.

For the heal I’m going to roll with well of eternity simply because of the changes made for BWE3. I think it’s a decent way to solve that cleanse issue while still allowing you to take portal (which is an absolute must for me).

Well done, can’t wait to try this concept in the next BWE!

EDIT: Forgot to say that the carrion suggestion is really going from an assumption that duelist’s discipline will be fixed for HoT. If it isn’t, I agree rabid is probably best.

Wow thanks a lot for your helpful insight. It’s always great when people can give feedback based on actual testing. Makes me feel like what I just think up in my head when I’m bored can actually have some viability.

I don’t have time to reply in detail, but I’ll get back to you. I’m hopeful that Mistrust can be put to use in PvP in a real impactful way. Thanks again.

One comment though, you aren’t the only one to suggest MoF for the AOE Diversion and you all make a good case for it. The AOE Diversion combined with potentially multiple interrupts and many many stacks of confusion. My pants are soaked.