Guild Wars 2

Fay.2357:

BlackDevil.9268:

Use this in a match where people are smart enough to insta target you and you’re dead in seconds or you’re dealing 0 damage due that you’re standing on range spamming 1 staff all by yourself.

How is this any different for power shatter? You’ve got even less resilience in a power build than you do in a build using rabid.

Ultimately, since mesmer is not viable at the top level, ‘viable’ is simply a reflection of what works. If you’re able to play a build successfully at an appropriate level, then that build is viable.

I personally used to play tPvP quite a bit, and I played PU conditions almost exclusively. You’ll hear lots of moaning about how that isn’t viable. I maintained my place in the top 100 of solo queue and the top 150 soloing in team queue with relative ease, not really pushing hard for those spots. Therefor, PU conditions is viable at that level.

Any mesmer build (that actually works) is viable at any level except the very top if you’re competent and skilled enough to use it in an appropriate manner.

Power shatter can easily stand on 1200 units and deal a fair amount of damage. Show me a video of how condi mesmer can be effective at 1200 units and I’ll take back that statement.

Ranking says nothing
Viable =/= Better
Power shatter > any other build in tpvp.
Mesmer is viable, it’s just not as strong as the cele setup with a dps guard.
In this case both setups are viable, though only accomplished when the mesmer is actually power shatter.
If the mesmer runs anything than that or uses it on a bad way your setup is not viable. This is due the particular reasons that a mesmer has a good burst, boon removal and portal.
Go anything else than that and you’re just wasting a spot, because all other working mesmer builds can be accomplished by other classes on a better scale.
So I don’t see why you would play something that’s not meta. Especially when we’re talking about condi builds because necro, engi and ranger can do a much better job on that subject. You’re just giving yourself a handicap.

(Other than having fun on other builds of course, though this is not an argument for which build is better)

BlackDevil.9268:

Power shatter can easily stand on 1200 units and deal a fair amount of damage. Show me a video of how condi mesmer can be effective at 1200 units and I’ll take back that statement.

If the enemy team is aware enough to instakill you if you get close, they’re certainly aware enough to send a thief to chase you down after you run away to 1200 range. Essentially, against an aware enough team…you’re not doing anything on any shatter build.

BlackDevil.9268:

Ranking says nothing

This is wonderfully false.

BlackDevil.9268:

Viable =/= Better

This…is wonderfully meaningless.

BlackDevil.9268:

Power shatter > any other build in tpvp.

This is a statement wonderfully lacking in any substantial evidence.

BlackDevil.9268:

Mesmer is viable, it’s just not as strong as the cele setup with a dps guard.

If mesmer is viable, why did zero teams run it in the WTS? Saying it’s ‘viable, just not as strong as other things’ is incredibly disingenuous. It’s flat out worse than other options, that’s literally what non-viable means. If it fights these other options, it loses.

BlackDevil.9268:

In this case both setups are viable, though only accomplished when the mesmer is actually power shatter. If the mesmer runs anything than that or uses it on a bad way your setup is not viable. This is due the particular reasons that a mesmer has a good burst, boon removal and portal.

I’ll just reiterate what I just said. The mesmer setup is obviously not viable, because running that makes you lose. This can easily be seen in how no teams ran it ever. Despite the good burst, boon removal, and portal…it’s still flat out worse than the meta celery comps.

BlackDevil.9268:

Go anything else than that and you’re just wasting a spot, because all other working mesmer builds can be accomplished by other classes on a better scale.

No, all working mesmer builds can be accomplished by other classes on a better scale. This is why no mesmers were used in the WTS. You’re deluding yourself if you think that mesmers are even remotely viable at the top level of play currently. It doesn’t matter whether or not you’re playing power shatter, condie shatter, PU, or glamour…none of them are viable.

BlackDevil.9268:

So I don’t see why you would play something that’s not meta. Especially when we’re talking about condi builds because necro, engi and ranger can do a much better job on that subject. You’re just giving yourself a handicap.

I play what I play because I enjoy playing it. I’m able to be successful with what I play through a combination of experience and skill. Because I’m able to be successful with it at any level outside of top tournaments…that makes it equally as viable as power shatter. These are the hard facts of the matter.

I think we’ve hit a wall where we can longer exchange information in a helpful matter. I remain resilient in my opinion that condi shatter can accomplish similar things as Power Shatter but at a much slower speed. I also stand firm in communicating my experiences that condi shatter performs better against the current cele meta.

I don’t think anyone has to say why Power Shatter is an amazing spec and easily one of our best, hence why there are no such threads. However, our power spec also has a lot of cons that make it hard to be successful. Pyro lays out why this is a fact by bringing up Mesmer [lack of] viability in a general sense.

I respect your opinion and thank you for your contribution to this thread, BlackDevil!

The ranking system, especially at the time you played tpvp, was more based on the amount of games you played (with a few exceptions of 11-1 scores) rather than on the amount of wins you had. The current leaderboards are just a little better, but still give you points based on the amount of times you played.
Also what I find funny is this:

Miku Lawrence.6329:

Miku Lawrence.6329:

I can’t see you on leaderboards, what is your IG?

Leaderboards are hilariously broken, I wouldn’t put any stock in them now.

And then your statement not much later:

BlackDevil.9268:

BlackDevil.9268:

Ranking says nothing

This is wonderfully false.

TCG and 55 hp monks still run a mesmer and do just fine in the ESL. If I remember correctly, the matches of TCG vs oRNG for the WTS qualifiers were pretty close (1-2 actually). Seeing oRNG being the best in the world since the last WTS, it’s pretty safe to say mesmer is still viable. The fact that there were no teams with mesmer on WTS is based on a whole different subject. 4 teams, whereas 1 team is being brought up with the cele meta, is just too few to base conclusions from. Especially when all teams are not in the same bracket but spread of 3 different brackets.

Seems like someone hasn’t learned how to position himself correctly yet… There are many spots where a thief just can’t come that easily across all maps. That is also if there’s a thief around, which is not always the case.

I already said why power shatter is better than condi shatter. Asuming there aren’t many builds left besides these it’s pretty safe to say power shatter is the most viable build for mesmer in tpvp. If it wasn’t then there would surely be enough reason for the remaining mesmers to respec to that specific build to be more effective, rather than not playing the meta build.

Like I said, playing something for fun is no argument for whether something is better than the other. If you feel like you can make it work and be effective, gratz to you. You still didn’t prove anything with that.
What I find the funniest of all is when people say something is viable, but once they come up with actual gameplay it shows nothing but garbage.

Edit: The quotes show incorrect and should show the order of: Fay – Miku lawrence Fay – Blackdevil

Wait wait wait, so I’m actually loosing all those games I thought I won while not playing an IP shatter build?

Man, no arguing with Blackdevils definition of viability I guess -_-u

Double wait, that game I lost while playing an IP shatter build, I actually won that one simply because I was on THE meta IP shatter build. Phew that’s a relief

if you look closly the fights where TCG with shatter mesmer you could see he was down and targeted always even in 1v1 he lost while accomplished almost nothing beside 1-2 burst from far which did 4k aoe dmg and run away to decap. reminde me thief play stlye
i dont say its not viable rather could be accomplish with with any other classes too

again i dont even try to compare power to condi setup
but compare it to engi or necro (ranger out of the question)

then maybe we can start really compare and make good arguments

i have started experiment with new setup build

4,4,0,0,6 with gs +staff carrion amulet
with boon removal 1800 power and boon on shatter and with gs the direct dmg can be nice (no crit dmg) but the condition still nice as with rabid

although i have to play more power shatter from range thus the shatter is slower the with rabid

till now i was nice in the courtyard where rabid mtd dont help at all.
in wvw also good almost the same as rabid
havent play much games yet on ranked

anyone tested it ?

messiah.1908:

if you look closly the fights where TCG with shatter mesmer you could see he was down and targeted always even in 1v1 he lost while accomplished almost nothing beside 1-2 burst from far which did 4k aoe dmg and run away to decap. reminde me thief play stlye
i dont say its not viable rather could be accomplish with with any other classes too

again i dont even try to compare power to condi setup
but compare it to engi or necro (ranger out of the question)

then maybe we can start really compare and make good arguments

Haha okay man. It’s funny you can see all that while you don’t see the pov of someone, but you can’t see yourself failing horribly on your own spec.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Wait wait wait, so I’m actually loosing all those games I thought I won while not playing an IP shatter build?

Man, no arguing with Blackdevils definition of viability I guess -_-u

Double wait, that game I lost while playing an IP shatter build, I actually won that one simply because I was on THE meta IP shatter build. Phew that’s a relief

Well if you guys keep making such useless arguments then yes, there’s not much to argue about with me.
By your logic I can play without traits, win the game and mark it as a ‘’viable build’‘.
Why? Because it’s a team game. If my 5 enemies are just horrible like I see in any video that people post with other builds other than power shatter, then it’s not too hard for some decent brained people to win that 4v5. Now fill into that 4v5 a mesmer that runs between points capping stuff and doing the little damage on people cause he doesn’t get focussed and tada, you can win the game. This doesn’t say anything about your effectiveness though, but rather about the enemies you’re fighting and the players you play with.

Now here’s something funny: There’s much more evidence for power shatter to be viable and the meta for so long, while there’s little to no evidence for all these wannabe builds from people who claim they’re just as viable as power shatter. There’s no reason for you guys to argue. Come up with evidence, I might just believe you… or just facepalm like almost at every ‘’supposed to be good/meta build’’ video.

BlackDevil.9268:

The ranking system, especially at the time you played tpvp, was more based on the amount of games you played (with a few exceptions of 11-1 scores) rather than on the amount of wins you had. The current leaderboards are just a little better, but still give you points based on the amount of times you played.

hahahahhahaahhauwhuaifhaglahew

You’re calling the old MMR based leaderboards worse at reflecting player skill than the current farmingboard ones? :————-D Most ridiculous thing I’ve read today.

MMR was very volatile: get to the top by accident => lack the skill and you’d lose games => MMR plummets and back to playing with noobs. If someone managed to stay there day after day with a lot of games played, it definitely told me that player had skill. MMR is in no way dependant on how many games you have played, how otherwise would you explain ppl on the top with 11 games?

Players who were at the top hundreds recognized each other and chatted with each other, every game you’d see someone you know. It had a sense of community and ppl made friends. Makes me sad to see what kind of system it devolved into because devs want to cater for pve ppl (introduce farming to pvp). 50% of top 100 farmingboard is probably turret engis atm, grinding points with 0 skill involved…

Dear BlackDevil. What do you expect us to do? Ask people like Helseth and Supcutie to try out MtD-shatter during their next couple of matches against other top-teams? I doubt that would help though; you’d probably just go on and claim that their opponents played terribly that day or were handicapped by whatever. Because obviously, no matter how many people tell you and try to show you evidence that MtD-shatter is perfectly fine, you still claim that it’s not viable cause it’s not viable. You ask for evidence, yet you do not show much evidence yourself. You downplay every bit of evidence that we did deliver and might deliver in future, while not showing any proof that power-shatter is so much better other than it being the only build played in the few top-teams that still use Mesmers.

I don’t want to speak for BlackDevil but what he’s getting at is that any build in low tier pvp is viable. But when people start to talk about it being the next big meta build by not participating in tournaments or higher level play, then he’s defending that Power Shatter is still the meta. Why? Because that’s where it has been played and shown to work.

The “evidence” that I’d imagine BlackDevil is looking for is tournament play. s/tPvP doesn’t mean much unless you’re in organized fights with quality players. Messiah’s video pointed this out pretty clearly that the players he went up against weren’t all that great. He could have used any build and the outcome would have been the same.

The problem I see here in the Mesmer forums is that people have these grand ideas and show footage of them dominating PvP but the quality of players they go up against is severely lacking. You want your build (MtD) to really shine? Join a team, join a tournament, perform well, and then you can start shifting the meta from Power Shatter to MtD.

Saturn.6591:

Dear BlackDevil. What do you expect us to do? Ask people like Helseth and Supcutie to try out MtD-shatter during their next couple of matches against other top-teams?

Actually, yes. Not in tournaments but while they are queing on stream. Just a match or 2.

Btw I’m pretty sure they both tried it and there is a reason why they don’t use it.

@ Wille
I’m not gonna argue with someone’s opinion, but in both ways it’s a bad matchmaking and I guess we both agree on that. The old MMR was after a while heavily based on the amount of games you played in that time span it took for the mmr to update. You could just lose game after game and still rise up the rankings, just because you played games. That’s not any better or worse than the current MMR.

Saturn.6591:

Dear BlackDevil. What do you expect us to do? Ask people like Helseth and Supcutie to try out MtD-shatter during their next couple of matches against other top-teams? I doubt that would help though; you’d probably just go on and claim that their opponents played terribly that day or were handicapped by whatever. Because obviously, no matter how many people tell you and try to show you evidence that MtD-shatter is perfectly fine, you still claim that it’s not viable cause it’s not viable. You ask for evidence, yet you do not show much evidence yourself. You downplay every bit of evidence that we did deliver and might deliver in future, while not showing any proof that power-shatter is so much better other than it being the only build played in the few top-teams that still use Mesmers.

No. I would just want people to stop claiming their builds are effective and meta worthy without showing evidence. There’s reasons why mesmer is in a kinda bad spot compared to other classes and gets little to no buffs and part of that problem is how over-hyped the mesmer community is about how extremely well other builds work so good in sPvP, while they don’t. This is also part of the reason that the builds people present here are actually working against bad players and overal don’t require a too high skill cap, while they don’t work in competitive PvP.

But sure, if you need confirmation about all this, go ask them. They will just tell you the exact same: It’s bad.

BlackDevil.9268:

@ Wille
I’m not gonna argue with someone’s opinion, but in both ways it’s a bad matchmaking and I guess we both agree on that. The old MMR was after a while heavily based on the amount of games you played in that time span it took for the mmr to update. You could just lose game after game and still rise up the rankings, just because you played games. That’s not any better or worse than the current MMR.

This is just not true, it’s not an opinion if you’re talking about facts. When soloq and tpvp were around you would ALWAYS lose MMR if you lost a game.

The rising up the ranks when losing would only happen on the leaderboard on one special occasion: you hadn’t been playing for some time, and lost ranking to temporary decay. When you eventually did play a game this temporary decay would then get removed and the MMR change added to the original rating. An example with made up numbers: Have MMR of 1000, don’t play for 2 days, decay 1000 → 500, play one game and lose it 500→1000-50=950.

Most of the games Fay (Pyro) played and to which he was referring were under the old system we had for a long time before they made the first big change last fall. Ironically enough that system, even with it’s flaws, has proven to be better than these past two attempts except for the horrible decay issues it had.

That aside, this thread is plagued with context issues all over the place. It’s hard to step in and comment because the landscape is so large. I’ll try to narrow it down.

Specifically, our only viable build in the top tier (I like to call this the 5% of players) is power shatter. This is a fact and has been since launch. I would go further and argue that aside from helseth, sometimes supcutie and sometimes misha, even though mesmer isn’t as much being taken at the moment doesn’t lessen the viability of power shatter in top tier PvP. It’s still a very strong and excellent build; it’s just not taken as much due to counter comping. But the very fact that it’s still heavily considered in strategy discussions makes it a viable build.

As for MtD, viability is determined not in whether it’s a strong build as much as the meta in which we reside. It’s been deemed not viable in the top tier in our current meta. By whom? Well I see Supcutie’s name being mentioned in this thread. He has tested this build. I’m unsure how extensively, but I know he’s at least given it a solid shot as I’ve spoken to him about it in the past. Maybe I’ll hit him up to respond to this thread and share his experiences in testing.

MtD pales in comparison to power shatter in the top tier in this current meta. If we were less in a celestial meta and more in a power meta I bet MtD would wreck. For those arguing MtD could be viable currently in the top tier, I think people really underestimate the coordination of these top teams to in large part counter condition heavy builds with their mass AoE cleanses.

Moving past the 5% top tier into more of the mainstream, any decently put together mesmer build can be run, MtD no exception and I believe this is the space wherein it shines.

BlackDevil.9268:

messiah.1908:

if you look closly the fights where TCG with shatter mesmer you could see he was down and targeted always even in 1v1 he lost while accomplished almost nothing beside 1-2 burst from far which did 4k aoe dmg and run away to decap. reminde me thief play stlye
i dont say its not viable rather could be accomplish with with any other classes too

again i dont even try to compare power to condi setup
but compare it to engi or necro (ranger out of the question)

then maybe we can start really compare and make good arguments

Haha okay man. It’s funny you can see all that while you don’t see the pov of someone, but you can’t see yourself failing horribly on your own spec.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Wait wait wait, so I’m actually loosing all those games I thought I won while not playing an IP shatter build?

Man, no arguing with Blackdevils definition of viability I guess -_-u

Double wait, that game I lost while playing an IP shatter build, I actually won that one simply because I was on THE meta IP shatter build. Phew that’s a relief

Well if you guys keep making such useless arguments then yes, there’s not much to argue about with me.
By your logic I can play without traits, win the game and mark it as a ‘’viable build’‘.
Why? Because it’s a team game. If my 5 enemies are just horrible like I see in any video that people post with other builds other than power shatter, then it’s not too hard for some decent brained people to win that 4v5. Now fill into that 4v5 a mesmer that runs between points capping stuff and doing the little damage on people cause he doesn’t get focussed and tada, you can win the game. This doesn’t say anything about your effectiveness though, but rather about the enemies you’re fighting and the players you play with.

Now here’s something funny: There’s much more evidence for power shatter to be viable and the meta for so long, while there’s little to no evidence for all these wannabe builds from people who claim they’re just as viable as power shatter. There’s no reason for you guys to argue. Come up with evidence, I might just believe you… or just facepalm like almost at every ‘’supposed to be good/meta build’’ video.

i really respect your opinions but you got it wrong now

if you claim if i dont see the pov how can you?
and your proof is just saying the power shatter is the meta just because ppl use it just because the elite players use it….
let me remind you that many years ago the earth considered flat and only 1 man said that its rounded . slowly more and more started to believe in it without any proof at all

the meta become the meta because ppl see the effectiveness in a certain build and game style and composition (see also the s/d thief – at start ppl said no dmg just troll build with perma evades….only after a year it became meta)

now till ppl dont start more and more to experiment this build just to proof it can work in the higher tier and with which scenarios or compositions we all cant say anything

i know i read some interview by skcamow and Supcutie (i think) which said that conditions wont work in the current cele /power meta but almost every heir tier fight i see a mesmer,his role is just like as the thieves with portal. while no class or build go conditions

messiah.1908:

let me remind you that many years ago the earth considered flat and only 1 man said that its rounded . slowly more and more started to believe in it without any proof at all

Have you ever considered becoming a comedian?

Fay.2357:

BlackDevil.9268:

Use this in a match where people are smart enough to insta target you and you’re dead in seconds or you’re dealing 0 damage due that you’re standing on range spamming 1 staff all by yourself.

How is this any different for power shatter? You’ve got even less resilience in a power build than you do in a build using rabid.

Ultimately, since mesmer is not viable at the top level, ‘viable’ is simply a reflection of what works. If you’re able to play a build successfully at an appropriate level, then that build is viable.

I personally used to play tPvP quite a bit, and I played PU conditions almost exclusively. You’ll hear lots of moaning about how that isn’t viable. I maintained my place in the top 100 of solo queue and the top 150 soloing in team queue with relative ease, not really pushing hard for those spots. Therefor, PU conditions is viable at that level.

Any mesmer build (that actually works) is viable at any level except the very top if you’re competent and skilled enough to use it in an appropriate manner.

Agree 100% with your logic. My thinking is the same.

I don’t normally post on forums but this thread made me.

I have played sw/t gs shatter mes since launch really, every now and then I use staff also. I tried condi shatter and tbh found myself useless. I had a bit more sustain sure but my conditions did hardly anything compared to an engi nade spam and I have kittenty base power damage. All in all I was pretty useless in team fights, thus I quickly went back to power and was able to boon remove, spike and be much more use to my team.

If you want to play condi, go for it. I just feel it is pretty crap compared to power but each to his own…

Have you guys considered rolling ele? That’s one viable mesmer build !

BlackDevil.9268:

Now here’s something funny: There’s much more evidence for power shatter to be viable and the meta for so long, while there’s little to no evidence for all these wannabe builds from people who claim they’re just as viable as power shatter. There’s no reason for you guys to argue. Come up with evidence, I might just believe you… or just facepalm like almost at every ‘’supposed to be good/meta build’’ video.

I like this talk of evidence because the evidence is that power shatter is not viable. It wants to be the only, or last remaining, or however you’d like to put it. But the evidence has clearly demonstrated Mesmer isnt even in the meta at all as of right now. This is what I keep reading over and over on the forums. So you’ve confused me again (BD clearly a pro Mesmer ;D), whats the difference again between all these builds that have no evidence of “viability”, and IP shatter with its evidence? Only that one has the evidence to back up its non-viability in the meta and the others don’t. Sorry guys I’m with Blackdevil on this one, clearly we have another ‘’supposed to be good/meta build’’ scenario on our hands and all those video’s even Anet took the time to record to back it up : (

Godkitten logic : (

messiah.1908:

let me remind you that many years ago the earth considered flat and only 1 man said that its rounded . slowly more and more started to believe in it without any proof at all

Actually, long before he came forward with his particular evidence and made his case, it was the general belief of many that the earth was round. Particularly sailors and those that traveled the sea because, as they moved to and away from land they could see the effect of the turning horizon. That can’t happen on a flat sea -_-u

So yeah, it wasn’t just one man, and it certainly wasn’t without evidence that people formed their opinion :/

hazahampo.4286:

I don’t normally post on forums but this thread made me.

I have played sw/t gs shatter mes since launch really, every now and then I use staff also. I tried condi shatter and tbh found myself useless. I had a bit more sustain sure but my conditions did hardly anything compared to an engi nade spam and I have kittenty base power damage. All in all I was pretty useless in team fights, thus I quickly went back to power and was able to boon remove, spike and be much more use to my team.

If you want to play condi, go for it. I just feel it is pretty crap compared to power but each to his own…

Sometimes I like to jump on to IP shatter just for kittenz and giggles. I know it’s strengths and its weaknesses. Anyway It’s one of my lesser played builds and not my preferred playstyle. As such my performance on it can be pretty bad after chopping and changing to it, especially given I only like to play ranked.

I mean if I go with your reasoning IP shatter is crap because I dived on to it randomly “gave it a go” and found it not working well. To each their own!

Oh wait! An idea! My instincts, playstyle, and mes concepts actually belong to another build! Therefor when I change on a whim, if I expect what I was playing with to function at the same level as what I’m now playing with, it’s probably me who’s kitten and not the build! D :

Oh man, I need to go lie down to process this.

Since this thread has gone all the way to the left, I’ll just +1 the good posts!

BlackDevil.9268:

The ranking system, especially at the time you played tpvp, was more based on the amount of games you played (with a few exceptions of 11-1 scores) rather than on the amount of wins you had. The current leaderboards are just a little better, but still give you points based on the amount of times you played.

You’re so hilariously wrong here it’s almost comical. The old leaderboards worked just fine, aside from a bit of odd roller-coastering with the decay functionality. The MMR, particularly at the highest ranks, worked quite nicely to match up people in that region. The broken boards now are entirely different and based on pure quantity of play, but the leaderboards were previously based purely on MMR with a side quantity of decay. The only way to gain ranking from a loss (as Wile put it several times) was to have decayed and then reset the decay with a loss. You’d still end up dropping ranking though, compared to where you were before decay set in.

BlackDevil.9268:

TCG and 55 hp monks still run a mesmer and do just fine in the ESL. If I remember correctly, the matches of TCG vs oRNG for the WTS qualifiers were pretty close (1-2 actually). Seeing oRNG being the best in the world since the last WTS, it’s pretty safe to say mesmer is still viable. The fact that there were no teams with mesmer on WTS is based on a whole different subject. 4 teams, whereas 1 team is being brought up with the cele meta, is just too few to base conclusions from. Especially when all teams are not in the same bracket but spread of 3 different brackets.

Didn’t TCG recently ditch helseth for another cele build or something? I thought I heard something along those lines. Regardless, the teams with mesmers lost. As I recall, the EU meta is slightly less cele-heavy, and you can see the results of those non-cele comps vs cele comps…the non-cele loses. Hard to argue with the facts of that.

BlackDevil.9268:

Seems like someone hasn’t learned how to position himself correctly yet… There are many spots where a thief just can’t come that easily across all maps. That is also if there’s a thief around, which is not always the case.

If you’re playing at a skilled level (like you keep making noise about) there will be a thief. There are incredibly few spots where a thief can’t shadowstep to you, and those spots are usually more of a pain for you to get to in the first place than it is for the thief to chase you up there.

BlackDevil.9268:

I already said why power shatter is better than condi shatter.

No you didn’t. You keep stating that it’s better, saying a couple reasons that don’t actually pertain to it (like taking portal and boon strip) and hoping that we don’t call you on your impressive leaps of logic.

BlackDevil.9268:

Assuming there aren’t many builds left besides these it’s pretty safe to say power shatter is the most viable build for mesmer in tpvp. If it wasn’t then there would surely be enough reason for the remaining mesmers to respec to that specific build to be more effective, rather than not playing the meta build.

You keep using this word ‘viable’. You appear to think that ‘viable’ means ‘whatever I say is viable, regardless of supporting details or evidence’. This is false.

Viable is a reflection of functionality. Different things are viable at different levels of play, because different things work better and worse at different levels of play. Ultimately, the viability of a build is simply an extension of whether or not it works, that’s all. Following that logic is quite simple, and leads to a single question to determine viability:

Does the build work at a certain level of play?
If yes, it is viable. If no, it is not.

Lets ask this question for some builds, shall we?

Does any mesmer build work at WTS level of play?
Answer: No.
Conclusion: No mesmer build is viable at WTS level of play.

What mesmer builds work at any level other than WTS level of play?
Answer: Many.
Conclusion: Many mesmer builds are viable at any level other than WTS level of play.

This many includes, but is not limited to

• CI lockdown
• CS lockdown
• Power shatter
• PU Conditions
• Power phantasm

I haven’t actually seen builds other than these played successfully at a high level of play, but absence of evidence is not evidence of the opposite case. Given the newly broken leaderboards it’s more difficult than it used to be to actually determine whether someone is at a high level of play, but I’m sure it could be done if you put your mind to it.

Ross Biddle.2367:

hazahampo.4286:

I don’t normally post on forums but this thread made me.

I have played sw/t gs shatter mes since launch really, every now and then I use staff also. I tried condi shatter and tbh found myself useless. I had a bit more sustain sure but my conditions did hardly anything compared to an engi nade spam and I have kittenty base power damage. All in all I was pretty useless in team fights, thus I quickly went back to power and was able to boon remove, spike and be much more use to my team.

If you want to play condi, go for it. I just feel it is pretty crap compared to power but each to his own…

Sometimes I like to jump on to IP shatter just for kittenz and giggles. I know it’s strengths and its weaknesses. Anyway It’s one of my lesser played builds and not my preferred playstyle. As such my performance on it can be pretty bad after chopping and changing to it, especially given I only like to play ranked.

I mean if I go with your reasoning IP shatter is crap because I dived on to it randomly “gave it a go” and found it not working well. To each their own!

Oh wait! An idea! My instincts, playstyle, and mes concepts actually belong to another build! Therefor when I change on a whim, if I expect what I was playing with to function at the same level as what I’m now playing with, it’s probably me who’s kitten and not the build! D :

Oh man, I need to go lie down to process this.

I played the build for a good 2 weeks wishing it to work better than IP shatter, I played with many strong players trying to make it fit into comps, but IMO it is just a sub par condi build. Much better to have engi or even necromancer in place of it IMO.

I understand IP shatter isn’t currently useful at WTS level, but it’s a hell of a lot closer to being there than condi shatter is IMO.

@ Fay
I find it funny that every time you go into a discussion and you don’t agree with someone, that all you do is calling someone stupid or dumb in other words. All you do is disagree like you’re the allknowing mesmer. You were the exact same 1/2 year ago, when I actually took the effort to watch your video’s. Your knowledge about mesmer is very good, but in practice you seem very poorly skilled. It wouldnt surprise me that, even if you did, you didnt play power mesmer for very long. Rather than that, you tried other builds such as PU condi like you said and probably any other build that you listed. Now there’s surely nothing wrong with that, but when I switched from PU hybrid to shatter it certainly took me a few weeks to actually get good on it. If you don’t know how to play power shatter, then yes, those other easy to play facerolling builds are surely as good as you would do on power shatter. This however, says much more about the player than the build. And I’m pretty sure any skilled mesmer will laugh at you once you say condi shatter, CS lockdown or power phantasm is as good as power shatter in sPvP or well… pretty much anywhere where there is PvP.

@ Ross
I have no freaking idea when you came into the community but your gameplay is kinda compareable to that of messiah or maybe even worse. Not only do you constantly klick your elite, you also struggle against mesmers that spam 1, struggle against facerolling warriors, use many skills on the wrong time or even out of range, dodge many times randomly like you just figuered out your dodge button. All that while running a dueling setup with mantra of distraction and a dueling build. It’s incredibly funny how such non-team supportive build can reach 1k hp against people who just figured out the game. The build you’re playing requires so less skill. It just feels like I’m watching my hybrid condi build of like nearly 2 years ago where all I did was spamming phantasm with immob/stun combo’s for them to actually hit. I barely even see you do that lol. Hell, you often even forget to cast your ileap to immobilize. Now of course you’re gonna deny that and act all funny about this, instead of actually getting better at your class. And so the hypetrain of how magically good these useless builds are goes on.
This is my problem with the mesmer community. So many clueless people, it’s not even fun anymore.

^Right… now may I ask who YOU are Mr. Super-Mesmer? The very first time I’ve read any post of you is in this topic. I have never heard or read your name anywhere before. I have never seen any video-footage of you. All I “know” of you is that you think very highly of yourself and that you are or were a member of a guild called Red Guard, which to my knowledge was the name of some hardcore GvG-guild that retired more than a year ago. Or maybe their name was slightly different; I don’t know. Oh hold on… you also have a channel linked in your signature. Right. Videos of guild raids; the most recent being nine months old. Very much like PvP indeed. Oh, and videos of killing PvE-players in EotM. Very skill, much wow. (Just copying your attitude here).

Oh, and according to your twitch, your current roaming build is power PU.

Edit: How about you make some videos of your amazing and perfect gameplay? So everyone here can be amazed by your ultimate skill, seeing how you kill the best players in the world on a daily basis?

Saturn.6591:

^Right… now may I ask who YOU are Mr. Super-Mesmer? The very first time I’ve read any post of you is in this topic. I have never heard or read your name anywhere before. I have never seen any video-footage of you. All I “know” of you is that you think very highly of yourself and that you are or were a member of a guild called Red Guard, which to my knowledge was the name of some hardcore GvG-guild that retired more than a year ago. Or maybe their name was slightly different; I don’t know. Oh hold on… you also have a channel linked in your signature. Right. Videos of guild raids; the most recent being nine months old. Very much like PvP indeed. Oh, and videos of killing PvE-players in EotM. Very skill, much wow. (Just copying your attitude here).

Oh, and according to your twitch, your current roaming build is power PU.

Edit: How about you make some videos of your amazing and perfect gameplay? So everyone here can be amazed by your ultimate skill, seeing how you kill the best players in the world on a daily basis?

You’re actually commenting on video detail rather than actual gameplay. If you have feedback on that please tell me, otherwise: just don’t comment on it.

Yes RG quit long time ago. So did my name change 1 year ago and so did my build. Do I care updating any of those? Nah not really. Don’t see why you would come with stuff that hasn’t been changed over a year. Shouldn’t have taken too long if you would’ve done some research for that seeing the latest youtube video’s date and the fact that the last highlight on twitch is also about the same time span.

I find recordings of spvp very boring to record and watch so it’s not something I’m gonna waste my time on, but if you want I can show you my apparently so claimed ultimate skill to you.

@Blackdevil

I find it educational that when presented with a simple and logical series of facts, you choose to ignore them and descend into juvenile critiques of character and playing skill. I’ll just assume that to mean that you don’t actually have a response.

BlackDevil.9268:

You were the exact same 1/2 year ago, when I actually took the effort to watch your video’s. Your knowledge about mesmer is very good, but in practice you seem very poorly skilled.

Real solid jab there, especially considering that I haven’t actually posted a gameplay video in 2 years, 1 month. I’d like to think I’ve gotten better in the past 2 years, I’m sure you have.

BlackDevil.9268:

This however, says much more about the player than the build. And I’m pretty sure any skilled mesmer will laugh at you once you say condi shatter, CS lockdown or power phantasm is as good as power shatter in sPvP or well… pretty much anywhere where there is PvP.

No see, here’s the difference. You just ‘say’ things are that good. I provide evidence, logic, and facts showing that what I say is true.

Having looked at your channel, I could go ahead and call you out on all sorts of mistakes and such in your play. However, I recognize that those are 9 months old and are not necessarily representative of your current skill. I also stopped by GW2Score for a quick peek at how you performed in PvP previously. It turns out that you actually did perform quite fine in PvP, so your opinion on what does work should carry some weight.

Unfortunately, it still means that your opinion on what doesn’t work is close to meaningless.