Guild Wars 2

So I made a little diagram showing why it is not ok that the phantasms are not created when dodged, blind or LOS. The phantasms should be created regardles to provide the secondary effects. If the target is not in line of sight (LOS) the phantasm should be created right next to the mesmer and therefore not be able to do dmg (i.e. berserker in WvW), but allow for the many secondary effects!

So here we go!
http://i.imgur.com/8gHIC.jpg

Tell me what you think!
Cheers, A fellow Mesmer

You missed out quite a few other traits, such as the phantasm regeneration buff (Which itself is a trigger for our protection trait), and the heal and vigor on shatter traits.

Simply put, this change is equvalent to making a thief or warrior lose all adrenaline/initiative generation while defensive conditions are in place

Play better.

No, really, play better. If they dodge your phanta creation then you’re overly predictable. If they block it, then you failed to check their buffs. If you can’t see them you have no right to hit them.

Phantasms are just attacks that open up another tier of attacks. Nothing more, nothing less, and as such they should be subject to the same usage conditions as everyone else.

And yes, I play a mesmer and I approve of these changes completely. Perhaps now Mesmers will stop being one-trick-pony berserker factories and start actually playing their class well and explore other traits and weapons.

Parthis.2091:

Play better.

No, really, play better. If they dodge your phanta creation then you’re overly predictable. If they block it, then you failed to check their buffs. If you can’t see them you have no right to hit them.

Phantasms are just attacks that open up another tier of attacks. Nothing more, nothing less, and as such they should be subject to the same usage conditions as everyone else.

And yes, I play a mesmer and I approve of these changes completely. Perhaps now Mesmers will stop being one-trick-pony berserker factories and start actually playing their class well and explore other traits and weapons.

Can we get a reality check here. This isn’t an L2P issue, it’s a parity issue.

No other class gets their class mechanic and half their traits shut down every time an enemy dodges, has aegis up, blocks, blinds or runs out of LoS – as much as I hate the expression “it’s not fair” this is a legitimate situation that warrants it.

Ryuujin.8236:

Parthis.2091:

Play better.

No, really, play better. If they dodge your phanta creation then you’re overly predictable. If they block it, then you failed to check their buffs. If you can’t see them you have no right to hit them.

Phantasms are just attacks that open up another tier of attacks. Nothing more, nothing less, and as such they should be subject to the same usage conditions as everyone else.

And yes, I play a mesmer and I approve of these changes completely. Perhaps now Mesmers will stop being one-trick-pony berserker factories and start actually playing their class well and explore other traits and weapons.

Can we get a reality check here. This isn’t an L2P issue, it’s a parity issue.

No other class gets their class mechanic and half their traits shut down every time an enemy dodges, has aegis up, blocks, blinds or runs out of LoS – as much as I hate the expression “it’s not fair” this is a legitimate situation that warrants it.

You’re kidding right?

It’s a skill based game. You’re not supposed to mindlessly spam your buttons to win. This is your combat system, and every single class in this game has to mitigate enemy actions. There are a million traits in this game that depend on pre-conditions, that in turn are applied by abilities which can be blocked/blinded/evaded. Steal, burning, bleeds, etc etc etc.

Do other class’ attacks ignore LoS? No.
Do other class’ attacks ignore Aegis? No.
Do other class’ attacks ignore Blind? No.
Do other class’ attacks pass through evades? No.

Check your debuffs.
Check their buffs.
Track their dodges.

Every other class ironically already has to do this against a Mesmer in order to win one on one.

These changes raise the skillcap; rise with it.

Pointing out parity issues != Being unable to play.

I know how to play a mesmer and have no trouble curb stomping people and mob alike. But it doesn’t change the fact mesmer’s class ability is infinitely more counterable than any other classes.

In order to “balance” it, what they SHOULD do, is cause the phantasm’s attacks to not land if the mesmer is blinded/stunned/whatever; since that is functionally what a phantasm or clone is, a mesmer’s primary ranged attack (it also blocks several utility phantys). The problem with the new implementation is that it also denies us our class mechanic resource. Imagine the uproar if warriors or thieves lost their adrenaline/initiative whenever they got blinded

Ground targeted aoes ignore los to the certain extent and any channeled multihit ability ignores aegis and blind with the exception of one hit(even ours do that stuff).

Parthis.2091:

Do other class’ attacks ignore LoS? No.
Do other class’ attacks ignore Aegis? No.
Do other class’ attacks ignore Blind? No.
Do other class’ attacks pass through evades? No.

Actually, many do.
That’s exactly the point everyone is raising, why is out utility/AE being singled out to be blockable / dodgeable, when everyone else’s isn’t, either?

Ryuujin.8236:

Pointing out parity issues != Being unable to play.

I know how to play a mesmer and have no trouble curb stomping people and mob alike. But it doesn’t change the fact mesmer’s class ability is infinitely more counterable than any other classes.

In order to “balance” it, what they SHOULD do, is cause the phantasm’s attacks to not land if the mesmer is blinded/stunned/whatever; since that is functionally what a phantasm or clone is, a mesmer’s primary ranged attack. The problem with the new implementation is that it also denies us our class mechanic resource. Imagine the uproar if warriors or thieves lost their adrenaline/initiative whenever they got blinded

It’s not a parity issue. It’s not a question of fairness. Step back and think about it for a second; can a thief steal from you if you’re invisible? Can a ranger snare you if you’re Los? Can a warrior knock you down if you have aegis? Eviserate you if he’s blinded? Hundred Blades you if you’re immune?. All classes have traits that depend on the execution of certain abilities. So do you.

It’s also not infinitely more counterable. Your opponents haven’t suddenly found a never ending set of ways of preventing you from being effective. You’ve suddenly found yourself with a set of circumstances in which pressing that button is no-longer a good idea.

Just. Like. Every. Other. Class.

Finally the OP posts a graphic that shows if Berserker isn’t summoned then some things don’t happen… which is, infact, nonsense. All of those traits state Illusions. All of those shatters require Illusions.

Non of them depend on the perfect execution of a previously broken Phantasm. Poor parity would have been leaving it alone and letting the rest of the player base figure it out…

… which brings us back to; adapt, play better, be more aware of your debuffs and their buffs. Nothing has actually changed apart from the requirement to be aware of the circumstances of the fight.

Carighan.6758:

Parthis.2091:

Do other class’ attacks ignore LoS? No.
Do other class’ attacks ignore Aegis? No.
Do other class’ attacks ignore Blind? No.
Do other class’ attacks pass through evades? No.

Actually, many do.
That’s exactly the point everyone is raising, why is out utility/AE being singled out to be blockable / dodgeable, when everyone else’s isn’t, either?

Single target attacks.

Winds.3087:

Ground targeted aoes ignore los to the certain extent and any channeled multihit ability ignores aegis and blind with the exception of one hit(even ours do that stuff).

Indeed, and we’re in line with other classes there.

Parthis.2091:

Indeed, and we’re in line with other classes there.

With channeled abilities – yes.
With gtae – nope.

Parthis.2091:

It’s not a parity issue. It’s not a question of fairness. Step back and think about it for a second; can a thief steal from you if you’re invisible?

Can a ranger snare you if you’re Los? Can a warrior knock you down if you have aegis? Eviserate you if he’s blinded? Hundred Blades you if you’re immune?.

Way to cherry pick your examples. Hundred blades might not work if you’re immune, but it’ll wreck aegis, blind or one-shot blocks. Contrast to iWarden which is also a high yield multi-hit phanty; whereas any kind’ve one shot counter negates all 12 potential hits. A thief might not be able to hit you while invis with steal, but thieves can steal while blinded – and no class can hit you while out of LoS, but I’m not contesting that, iZerker’s out-of-LoS attacks were mechanically broken and needed addressing, this is an entirely different arguement.

And where do we stand with utility phantys like defender and disenchanter. Blind doesn’t prevent a guardian using symbol of protection or whatever it’s called.

Parthis.2091:

All of those traits state Illusions. All of those shatters require Illusions.

Now you’re just grasping at straws; did he really need to individually list every clone and phantasam related skill icon…

Parthis.2091:

Single target attacks.

So that means Berserker, Warden, Defender should all not be blockable/dodgeable, right?

We have other illusion creating abilites. You still have access to all the secondary benefits from illusions.

Use them.

koopatroopa.5360:

We have other illusion creating abilites. You still have access to all the secondary benefits from illusions.

Use them.

I do, I just stopped traiting (half of them are bugged and replace each other ,anyhow) Phantasms to be less dependent on them.
Further, Defender and (rarely) Disenchanter are off the hotbar. Since I’d never use them as an attack, having them blockable like an attack is just rubbing it in. Gone with them.

Intahara.7836:

So I made a little diagram showing why it is not ok that the phantasms are not created when dodged, blind or LOS. The phantasms should be created regardles to provide the secondary effects. If the target is not in line of sight (LOS) the phantasm should be created right next to the mesmer and therefore not be able to do dmg (i.e. berserker in WvW), but allow for the many secondary effects!

So here we go!
http://i.imgur.com/8gHIC.jpg

Tell me what you think!
Cheers, A fellow Mesmer

That is a very good diagram explaining the core mechanics of Mesmer. It’s disheartening to realize that some players have in depth knowledge about how the mechanics of this profession works, but the devs who were responsible in making these changes failed to see through that these changes raised other concerns and ultimately altered a coherent functional core mechanics.

This is a double penalty indeed. The state before the changes were already in perfectly balanced because all attacks by summoned Phantasm on the target will fail, miss, and evaded by blind, invulnerability, and dodge. Now when those conditions are met, the enemy target not only can make the initial attack or attacks by a Phantasm to be failed, miss, or evaded, those defensive counters will ALSO make any phantasm summoning skill to simply FAIL completely as double mitigation. Many of our skills revolves around summoning phantasms and synergies with clones and phantasms, these changes are going to penalize the core mechanics of a Mesmer.

Other professions with have a very easy time with Mesmers now since they can chain CC and defensive measures such as blind, invulnerability, dodge, and block to completely shut down the basic functionality of a Mesmer. If I’m playing against a Mesmer now, I know exactly what to do to completely steamrolled this class in PvP. Mesmers are going to take a heavy fall in PvP aspect of the game due to these changes, and raised new concerns not just in PvP but PvE and WvW as well.

Mystiq Angelic.8193:

Intahara.7836:

So I made a little diagram showing why it is not ok that the phantasms are not created when dodged, blind or LOS. The phantasms should be created regardles to provide the secondary effects. If the target is not in line of sight (LOS) the phantasm should be created right next to the mesmer and therefore not be able to do dmg (i.e. berserker in WvW), but allow for the many secondary effects!

So here we go!
http://i.imgur.com/8gHIC.jpg

Tell me what you think!
Cheers, A fellow Mesmer

That is a very good diagram explaining the core mechanics of Mesmer. It’s disheartening to realize that some players have in depth knowledge about how the mechanics of this profession works, but the devs who were responsible in making these changes failed to see through that these changes raised other concerns and ultimately altered a coherent functional core mechanics.

This is a double penalty indeed. The state before the changes were already in perfectly balanced because all attacks by summoned Phantasm on the target will fail, miss, and evaded by blind, invulnerability, and dodge. Now when those conditions are met, the enemy target not only can make the initial attack or attacks by a Phantasm to be failed, miss, or evaded, those defensive counters will ALSO make any phantasm summoning skill to simply FAIL completely as double mitigation. Many of our skills revolves around summoning phantasms and synergies with clones and phantasms, these changes are going to penalize the core mechanics of a Mesmer.

Other professions with have a very easy time with Mesmers now since they can chain CC and defensive measures such as blind, invulnerability, dodge, and block to completely shut down the basic functionality of a Mesmer. If I’m playing against a Mesmer now, I know exactly what to do to completely steamrolled this class in PvP. Mesmers are going to take a heavy fall in PvP aspect of the game due to these changes, and raised new concerns not just in PvP but PvE and WvW as well.

Thanks. Yes I did forget some traits and utilities, but the diagram is just an example of how illusions work for us.

What many do not grasp is that phantasms have 2 sides. One side is the damage part. And here I agree that when LOS, blind etc. the damage should not get through (and berserker for instance should not spawn next to target when out of sight, but next to the mesmer). But the other side is opens a whole lot of secondary things. The four shatters, traits that only give us buffs when illusions are active and others. And this side only works when the illusion is being created. So yeah if I am blinded, the phantasm should be created but should not do dmg! Thus I can use the secondary effects, of which we mesmer rely heavily upon.

Again: creating illusions is not an attack and should not be treated like one.

And for those saying that other classes attack fail if blind LOS: So then the Thief’s Heart Seeker should not let the player jump forward when blinded or LOS (the jump here is a secondary effect, Thief gains distance and does a combo finisher).

bb

I can deal with LoS – if it weren’t so buggy and often denied illusion summons under acceptable conditions
I can deal with block – if enemy Aegis burned up with my skill cast (doesn’t seem to)
I can deal with blind – if blindness burned up after my skill cast (doesn’t seem to)
Dodge is pushing it, but I can deal with that too. Just fix all the bugs already!!!

The illusion summoning is acting incredibly strange with its range. I’ve been at flat ground and attempted to summon and it’ll just use the CD without doing a thing. I’ve stood within 300 and it doesn’t summon.

It seems to be hit or miss now. This patch is incredibly unfortunate.