Guild Wars 2

I personally dislike that Death Shroud works as a form. I envision it as working as a cross between the Guardian’s Virtues and the current Life Force usage when using DS skills.

So, in the following, passive skills work regardless of Life Force amount, whereas activating skills uses Life Force the way using skills in shroud does now. Life Force will drain the way it currently does when you’re in shroud.

I’ve re-written all the traits that currently involve DS, and while I have swapped a couple between lines, the number of adept/master/grandmaster traits in a given line remain the same.
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Skills -

F1 – Life Blast: Passive – Chill Foe for 2 seconds on every fifth attack. Active – Blast Foe with Life Force.

F2 – Dark Path: Teleport to target area, bleeding and chilling nearby foes. Recharge 20 seconds.

F3 – Life Transfer: Damage nearby foes and steal their life force (3%). Recharge 40 seconds.

F4 – Dark Armour: Passive – Grant 3 seconds of Retaliation every 30 seconds. Active: Gain 5 seconds retaliation. Gain 5 stacks of Stability for 6s. Recharge 30 seconds.

Traits:

(Spite)

Minor Adept – Reapers Might: Life Blast active grants might.

Major Master – Rending Shroud: Shroud skills inflict Vulnerability on their targets.

Major Grandmaster – Spiteful Spirit: Cast Unholy Feast when activating Life Transfer.

(Curses)

Minor Master – Furious Demise: Gain 3s Fury when a nearby foe dies.

Major Master – Path of Corruption: Dark Path converts enemy boons to conditions.

Major Grandmaster – Weakening Shroud: Dark Armor casts Enfeeble on foes.

(Death Magic)

Minor Adept – Armored Shroud: Gain Toughness (180 at lvl 80) when Life Force is above threshold. (50%)

Major Adept – Shrouded Removal: Dark Path transfers 3 conditions to affected foes.

Minor Grandmaster – Beyond the Veil: When Dark Armor ends, you and your minions gain protection.

Major Grandmaster – Unholy Sanctuary: If Life Force is above the threshold (10%), Dark Armor will activate if you take a lethal blow.

(Blood Magic)

Major Master – Unholy Martyr: Nearby allies gain regeneration when your HP is below the threshold. (50%)

Major Grandmaster – Vital Persistence: Gain regeneration when Life Force is above the Threshold. (90%)

Major Grandmaster – Transfusion: Life Transfer heals and partially revives nearby allies. Up to five downed allies near you teleport to your location when you’re channeling Life Transfer.

(Soul Reaping)

Major Adept – Speed of Shadows: Reduce recharge on Death Shroud skills by 20%

Major Adept – Unyielding Blast: Life Blast pierces up to 5 foes.

Major Master – Foot in the Grave: Conditions expire 33% faster while you are above the Life Force threshold. (90%)

Minor Grandmaster – Strength of Undeath: You deal more damage (5%) while above the Life Force threshhold (90%)

Major Grandmaster – Life from Death: Nearby deaths decrease recharge on Death Shroud skills by 1s.

Major Grandmaster – Death Perception: Increase critical hit chance (15%) while life force is above the threshold. (90%)

Major Grandmaster – Dhuumfire: Death Shroud skills inflict burning on your targets. (1 stack 3 seconds)

REAPER:

F1 – Life Rend: Passive – Chill foe for 2 seconds on every fifth attack. Active – Cleave foes around you, gaining life force for each foe struck. (This skill inherits traits from life blast)

F2 – Death’s Charge: Slide forward, destroying projectiles in your path. Blind and Chill foes at your destination. (This skill inherits traits from Dark Path) Recharge 15 seconds.

F3 – Soul Spiral: Spiral and damage nearby foes, dealing high damage. (This skill inherits traits from Life Transfer) Recharge 40s

F4 – Infusing Terror: Passive – Gain 3 seconds of Retaliation every 30 secons. Active – Gain 5 stacks of Stability for 6 seconds. Foes around you flee in Fear. Recharge 30 seconds.

Traits:

Minor Adept – Shroud Knight: Death Shroud is replaced by Reaper Shroud, with more melee oriented skills.

Major Adept – Reaper’s Onslaught: Deal more damage to foes under 130 distance. (10%)

Major Master – Relentless Pursuit: Reduces duration of movement impairing conditions. (33%) You move 25% faster.

Major Grandmaster – Blighter’s Boon: Gain Life Force (1%) when you apply a boon to yourself. If Life Force is full, gain health instead.

This is how I envision the Necromancer and Shroud as working. Discus, crucify me, what have you.

EDITED: Spelling and formatting.

Having a ton of options all at once (like ele/engi) would be crazy awesome for necro. It would probably need a full rework and some awesome animations for the special stuff though.

Whatever they do, I would love for necro to become a more skill based class. I enjoy playing classes that are capable of being really complex.

Removal of the life force health bar would also open up our profession to actual useful skills like evades/invulns and blocks.

I feel like I keep advertising for my old posts, but using F1-F4 instead of a transformation was the key of my elite spec suggestion
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/New-ES-the-warlock-a-burst-and-DPS-spec/first#post6094838

If we keep the death shroud mechanics as it is, what I would suggest is:

1. Life blast changed to a channel beam (like staff AA of druid) with 3 hit on each auto every 1.5s or so. This allows DS to benefit from all the “shroud skill 1” traits as much as RS (RS is currently hitting faster and thus benefitting more). It also becomes more reliable than the stupid projectile we currently have, especially since we already have similar AA on staff and Lich Form.
2. skill 2 changed to a ground-targeted teleport and with shorter CD.
3. skill 3 could become a stunbreak (either by default or thanks to Foot in the Grave)
4. skill 4 slightly faster channel
5. skill 5 I don’t know about this one

I dont like your changes. I actually like the fact that our shroud is a transformation. Only because Anet implemented it badly (which in my opinion has alot to do with the fact that shroud was our down state at one point) doesnt mean having a transformation as f-skill is bad.

Honestly it also wouldnt be hard to fix the problems shroud has. In the past there where a lot of good suggestions about it.

.

Muchacho.2390:

I dont like your changes. I actually like the fact that our shroud is a transformation. Only because Anet implemented it badly (which in my opinion has alot to do with the fact that shroud was our down state at one point) doesnt mean having a transformation as f-skill is bad.

Honestly it also wouldnt be hard to fix the problems shroud has. In the past there where a lot of good suggestions about it.

.

Shroud is great thematically but needs some serious fixing to open up the class again.

Maybe if shroud gave the dmg reduc but no second life bar, allowed use of heals and utils, life force as more of a shroud timer, shroud dmg bonus, necro getting some skills useful for gap closing/disengage/dmg negation/decent heal/better stun breaks/more boon availability.

Something needs to be done though. Necro is currently too simplistic and lacks a lot of the tools that other classes have as far as controlling engagements and dealing with focus. Even decent ranged dmg (staff?)

Reh.5986:

Muchacho.2390:

I dont like your changes. I actually like the fact that our shroud is a transformation. Only because Anet implemented it badly (which in my opinion has alot to do with the fact that shroud was our down state at one point) doesnt mean having a transformation as f-skill is bad.

Honestly it also wouldnt be hard to fix the problems shroud has. In the past there where a lot of good suggestions about it.

.

Shroud is great thematically but needs some serious fixing to open up the class again.

Maybe if shroud gave the dmg reduc but no second life bar, allowed use of heals and utils, life force as more of a shroud timer, shroud dmg bonus, necro getting some skills useful for gap closing/disengage/dmg negation/decent heal/better stun breaks/more boon availability.

Something needs to be done though. Necro is currently too simplistic and lacks a lot of the tools that other classes have as far as controlling engagements and dealing with focus. Even decent ranged dmg (staff?)

I’ve been thinking along these lines too. While it certainly would change a lot of things I think it would be better for the game and easier for Anet to balance. The main problem with shroud is it’s lack of scaling. No other class can be beaten out of their defences. I mean we could go the other way and change blocks and invuls to only block/ignore a certain amount of dmg. to make the block spam and invuls less powerful but…. it would be better,easier and less complicated to change shroud.

Well, if you want shroud to scale, just make some skills/traits that regulate the life force drops. For instance a trait could be:
When entering shroud your life force doesn’t drop for 2 seconds.

This means for 2 seconds you have damage immunity in shroud.

You can scale in other ways: a trait that prevents losing more then a fixed amount of life force in a second, skills that force a minimum duration of shroud regardless of life force,… . just some creativity.

Tim.6450:

Well, if you want shroud to scale, just make some skills/traits that regulate the life force drops. For instance a trait could be:
When entering shroud your life force doesn’t drop for 2 seconds.

This means for 2 seconds you have damage immunity in shroud.

You can scale in other ways: a trait that prevents losing more then a fixed amount of life force in a second, skills that force a minimum duration of shroud regardless of life force,… . just some creativity.

that doesn’t change anything. we’ll last 2 more seconds before die. This is a core problem to how shroud works and a few traits wont fix that or become mandatory in every build for pvp which leads to less diversity. The problem with shroud not scaling is that you can’t balance it properly. It’s either too good or too bad depending on the situation. And as you have to balance it for all situations without trivialising some of it you can’t do it. Not without hitting hard in other areas. Like our stab and dmg.
If it’s scaled too high it basically becomes crazy invuln but if it’s to low it won’t really do anything. This makes it less fun to play and less fun to play against. Scalable always works without trivialising or becoming useless.

There are multiple ways to fix this that varies heavily that may change a ton of things or close to nothing. I prefer it went in the direction of what Reh said. But an easier way would probably be to reduce the amount of dmg shroud takes based on how many that are attacking you which wouldn’t really change the mechanic of shroud. That would fix some of the problems.

I’m sorry but in the event that this became a real possibility, I would be against it. I love vanilla Necromancer the way it is. There are certainly things that I would like to see changed/fixed but I’m very happy with Death Shroud as a whole. Very minor things like removing the after cast of Tainted Shackles, increasing velocity of Dark Path, etc. are the most changes I would want to see.

It was an interesting read and it’s fun to come up with ideas such as these but personally, I would be against it. No offense intended.

we all have class specific mechanics, literally copying another class mechanic is a silly idea.

shroud is what we have so that’s what we gotta deal with

first shroud should lose the passive life force degeneration

second, change the shroud mechanic slightly. for every second that power damage would be taken x% of shroud is lost

eg. there is a mini timer from the moment the necro enters shroud, if at any point during the second any power damage is taken, x% of life force is lost no matter how high the damage spike is. at the end of that second, the timer is reset, if any power damage is again taken any point during the next second, you lose another x% life force. if only condition damage is taken, then life force degeneration remains unchanged.

this wouldn’t screw over condi builds, as all condi builds even necro sceptre have a form of power damage on the AA and even every skill. it just means that they would have to continue to attack the necro instead of condi and forget

change the soul reaping trait so that life force lost while taking damage is reduced

this way it scales

Folks, if we don’t fundamentally change Shroud, then power necro remains borked. Literally, our whole skillbar exists for no reason except to survive while we power up shroud.

That is a kitten poor design, right there.

stale.9785:

Folks, if we don’t fundamentally change Shroud, then power necro remains borked. Literally, our whole skillbar exists for no reason except to survive while we power up shroud.

That is a kitten poor design, right there.

I agree the shroud is the main source of our problems. But it is not completely awful, I don’t mind having it as a mechanics, but I would like to be able to choose to use the necro skills in a different context. That is why I think an elite specialization is a good way to address it. Give to this elite spec active defenses and remove the shroud HP bag. Easy! An example is the elite spec I suggested above.

While I sometimes think classes are doomed by design and need a major overhaul of their mechanics at the core level (for example mesmer and phantasms), I don’t think necro shroud is that bad.

So basically the OP wants necros to have guardian’s virtue mechanic. Because that is essentially what is being outlined.

No, I’m sorry, but no. I’ve said it in other threads and I’ll say it again. Necros should not be turned into wannabe guardians just to appease a meta that will change.

Shroud creates unique gameplay, if I wanted guardian gameplay I’d go play a guardian.

stale.9785:

Folks, if we don’t fundamentally change Shroud, then power necro remains borked. Literally, our whole skillbar exists for no reason except to survive while we power up shroud.

That is a kitten poor design, right there.

Yeah wouldn’t be so bad if shroud actually had some decent survival mechanics. As it is now you get a short stab and then no stun breaks, heals, condi cleanses. Against smarter players you’re basically wrapping yourself for burial. At least it fits the theme.

Bonus is you actually do worse dmg in shroud too unless you’re some reaper shroud condi.

What the shroud really needs is 0.25 recharge, so a bit of lag won’t get you outside of it because it gets triggered twice no matter how careful you are with your controls.

MithranArkanere.8957:

What the shroud really needs is 0.25 recharge, so a bit of lag won’t get you outside of it because it gets triggered twice no matter how careful you are with your controls.

Balancing something around lag issues is the definition of stupid.

Like alot of people said in here I like Death Shroud as a transformation skill. But I really hate the fact that it acts as a second health bar because you never really get prolonged use out of it when you’re getting your head smashed in from PvP so it just ends up being this pseudo taking ability.

My (bad) idea. Keep Death Shroud as a toggable transformation, you can stay in it as long as you like and give the ability a 30-45 second cooldown. Instead of the lifeforce bar acting as a health bar it acts as a power gauge. The more lifeforce you have the stronger your abilities are while you’re in the shroud. Maybe just increase the lifeforce decay by a little more and boom. You’re all good.

Lahmia.2193:

MithranArkanere.8957:

What the shroud really needs is 0.25 recharge, so a bit of lag won’t get you outside of it because it gets triggered twice no matter how careful you are with your controls.

Balancing something around lag issues is the definition of stupid.

Balancing something so it doesn’t get affected by lag is something you HAVE to do when making online games.

This is not a counter strike 1.7 tournament in a LAN party.

MithranArkanere.8957:

Lahmia.2193:

MithranArkanere.8957:

What the shroud really needs is 0.25 recharge, so a bit of lag won’t get you outside of it because it gets triggered twice no matter how careful you are with your controls.

Balancing something around lag issues is the definition of stupid.

Balancing something so it doesn’t get affected by lag is something you HAVE to do when making online games.

This is not a counter strike 1.7 tournament in a LAN party.

This idea was implemented before, during HoT Beta, and it was reverted because people didn’t want a split second cooldown to get out of shroud. Anet aren’t going to implement it again.

So no more -50% dmg while in death shroud?

Justine.6351:

So no more -50% dmg while in death shroud?

edit: Just realised this might not be what you meant, but I’ll let it stay.

The 50% damage reduction doesn’t mean anything. Everything about shroud is percentage based except for receiving damage. This means that they could double the amount of life force and remove the -50%, or reduce the amount by half and upp the reduction to 75% and it would still be the same for gameplay. It just arbitrarily ended up this way.

DTATL.9641:

Justine.6351:

So no more -50% dmg while in death shroud?

edit: Just realised this might not be what you meant, but I’ll let it stay.

The 50% damage reduction doesn’t mean anything. Everything about shroud is percentage based except for receiving damage. This means that they could double the amount of life force and remove the -50%, or reduce the amount by half and upp the reduction to 75% and it would still be the same for gameplay. It just arbitrarily ended up this way.

No it’s not the same. Life Force amount does not scale to damage taken. Damage reduction does scale to damage taken.

Swapping X life force for Y damage reduction is only “the same for gameplay” at a single set amount of DTPS. Any more DTPS and Damage reduction is more valuable, and less and LF is more valuable.

Crinn.7864:

DTATL.9641:

Justine.6351:

So no more -50% dmg while in death shroud?

edit: Just realised this might not be what you meant, but I’ll let it stay.

The 50% damage reduction doesn’t mean anything. Everything about shroud is percentage based except for receiving damage. This means that they could double the amount of life force and remove the -50%, or reduce the amount by half and upp the reduction to 75% and it would still be the same for gameplay. It just arbitrarily ended up this way.

No it’s not the same. Life Force amount does not scale to damage taken. Damage reduction does scale to damage taken.

Swapping X life force for Y damage reduction is only “the same for gameplay” at a single set amount of DTPS. Any more DTPS and Damage reduction is more valuable, and less and LF is more valuable.

I’m not sure what point you are trying to make. Everything that gathers lifeforce is done by a percentage not amount of lifeforce. A skill that generates 1% will always have to hit 100 times before it’s full no matter what amount you actually have. The same for life force degen while using shroud. It is a set percentage. This means it will always take the same amount of time to get from 100-0 even if you have 1000 lifeforce or 10000000000 lifeforce. The only thing that doesn’t apply to this is damage taken thats based on the amount of lifeforce we have.

So if we have 10k lifeforce and we have 50% damage reduction, a hit of 1k dmg will be reduced to 500 damage only counting that damage reduction. The thing is if we double the amount of lifeforce to 20k and get rid of the damage reduction we’ll take the full 1k damage. The result would be the same as the percentage of lifeforce actually lost is the same. This is the point I was making. The damage reduction is just how it arbitrarily ended up paired with the amount of life force we have. Unless there is something I missed, which I might and feel free to correct me if that’s the case, the damage reduction is just arbitrarily put there.

edit: grammar

Yeah, no. I know Shroud is a constant source of frustration for many and many feel that its mere existence dooms Necro forever. But I do not want to see classes becoming more similar (like this, where Necro basically just becomes Guardian, but with a secondary energy mechanic instead of regular cooldowns on “virtues”) just for the sake of balance. I’d rather have flavorful and unique classes than get perfect balance by making everything the same.

I personally like it as it is. I get that the OP wants to make necro better, but the whole point of necro is to be taking the hits and just being okay with it because you’re one with death, in essence. Giving the necro a virtue-style kit effectively turns it into a Guardian v2 except strictly worse until other things get changed, in which case there’s just a problem of duplicate classes and one will just be better than the other.

I think the only two issues with it are that necromancer in general should respawn with a reasonable percentage to get started so they don’t get denied the opportunity to negate even some amount of damage or use some important abilities, and that life force accessibility needs to be upped across weapons and skills. In my opinion, all attacks that deal damage should provide LF. Arbitrary gains only on one or two skills per kit are kind of silly because then certain weapons become innately better at generating the essential resource over others, and those weapons may or may not even be good on their own to accelerate the necromancer into a position where it can genuinely fight well.

lol another shroud overhaul thread