Burning Precision: Critical hits have a 33% chance to cause 2 seconds of burning. Burning duration is increased by 20%.
Looks familiar? We had this once, and we were nerfed because of it, and then it was nerfed into oblivion.
Dhuumfire: Shroud skill 1 inflicts 1 stack of burning for 3 seconds when it hits.
Of course, to rub in the salt a bit, the ele trait also synergizes with a trait that applies a ton of blind. Imagine if every time dhuumfire procced, the foe was blinded. People would say it was broken. I don’t want eles to be nerfed, but I do want Necros to be buffed, and if ele can have something as strong as this, can’t we get something other than a nerf?
Nope. /15,000 nachos.
That is a minor trait too hahahah dhuumfire is a grandmaster that only functions on the slowest firing projectile in the game hahah. So MUCH BIAS!!!!!!!!!
I like the new Dhuumfire. I just wish it also worked with Shroud 4 skills or was bumped to 4 seconds on auto.
To stick with the necromancer theme, every time an Elementalist procs the ability a random necromancer should receive 10 stacks of poison.
I like the new Dhuumfire. I just wish it also worked with Shroud 4 skills or was bumped to 4 seconds on auto.
Just an increased duration would be fine.
I like the new Dhuumfire. I just wish it also worked with Shroud 4 skills or was bumped to 4 seconds on auto.
Just an increased duration would be fine.
If still like 2 seconds per tick on Shroud 4. It does a great job making our physical Auto a condi move, would be cool if that extended to our 4 as well. I wouldnt suggest 3 though. 1.5-2 seconds would be sufficient.
I posted this somewhere else, but it’s one stack of burning, and most eles don’t run crit heavy builds. Compared to Dhuumfire which was clearly balanced for Reaper Shroud, which can stack burning in an AOE, every hit.
It’s not even close.
I like the new Dhuumfire. I just wish it also worked with Shroud 4 skills or was bumped to 4 seconds on auto.
Just an increased duration would be fine.
If still like 2 seconds per tick on Shroud 4. It does a great job making our physical Auto a condi move, would be cool if that extended to our 4 as well. I wouldnt suggest 3 though. 1.5-2 seconds would be sufficient.
Interesting thought I always believed our AoE condition was limited because the devs believe we have a slot for Epidemic (vs players that is) it might change but yeah on shroud skill 4 seems worthy.
I posted this somewhere else, but it’s one stack of burning, and most eles don’t run crit heavy builds. Compared to Dhuumfire which was clearly balanced for Reaper Shroud, which can stack burning in an AOE, every hit.
It’s not even close.
Yeah, the two don’t really compare, however technically even with reapers shroud, it does fall quite a bit short of Scepter auto attack when traited. Hence why is be thrilled if either it got 1 more second or 1.5-2 seconds per hit on Shroud 4 so it could be used in sort of a burst phase. Would be cool. Plus then all shroud skills would be valuable as a condition user.
I like the new Dhuumfire. I just wish it also worked with Shroud 4 skills or was bumped to 4 seconds on auto.
Just an increased duration would be fine.
If still like 2 seconds per tick on Shroud 4. It does a great job making our physical Auto a condi move, would be cool if that extended to our 4 as well. I wouldnt suggest 3 though. 1.5-2 seconds would be sufficient.
Interesting thought I always believed our AoE condition was limited because the devs believe we have a slot for Epidemic (vs players that is) it might change but yeah on shroud skill 4 seems worthy.
I don’t believe having it on shroud 4 would be a problem with epedimic. If it was a 1.5-2 second burn it would be a short burst of damage but not last long enough for it to be an epedimic issue since burns are short and bursty as opposed to long and stackable like bleeds. We’ll see though if they touch it. I sort of hope they do.
I posted this somewhere else, but it’s one stack of burning, and most eles don’t run crit heavy builds. Compared to Dhuumfire which was clearly balanced for Reaper Shroud, which can stack burning in an AOE, every hit.
It’s not even close.
Yeah, the two don’t really compare, however technically even with reapers shroud, it does fall quite a bit short of Scepter auto attack when traited. Hence why is be thrilled if either it got 1 more second or 1.5-2 seconds per hit on Shroud 4 so it could be used in sort of a burst phase. Would be cool. Plus then all shroud skills would be valuable as a condition user.
Well I think a condi user could still use it, I mean it also grants more life force and can deal some damage if you’re waiting out your heal or something. FitG is probably still stronger., though.
I’m not even sure that Reaper is that strong of a choice for condi necros at this point. Chill dealing damage is cool but I don’t know how much it’s really worth.
I posted this somewhere else, but it’s one stack of burning, and most eles don’t run crit heavy builds. Compared to Dhuumfire which was clearly balanced for Reaper Shroud, which can stack burning in an AOE, every hit.
It’s not even close.
Yeah, the two don’t really compare, however technically even with reapers shroud, it does fall quite a bit short of Scepter auto attack when traited. Hence why is be thrilled if either it got 1 more second or 1.5-2 seconds per hit on Shroud 4 so it could be used in sort of a burst phase. Would be cool. Plus then all shroud skills would be valuable as a condition user.
Well I think a condi user could still use it, I mean it also grants more life force and can deal some damage if you’re waiting out your heal or something. FitG is probably still stronger., though.
I’m not even sure that Reaper is that strong of a choice for condi necros at this point. Chill dealing damage is cool but I don’t know how much it’s really worth.
Reaper’s #4 doesn’t give life force. Still think it would be a good addition to the skill. You shan’t sway me. Spinning fire scythe is too stronk for you.
Burning Precision: Critical hits have a 33% chance to cause 2 seconds of burning. Burning duration is increased by 20%.
Looks familiar? We had this once, and we were nerfed because of it, and then it was nerfed into oblivion.
Dhuumfire: Shroud skill 1 inflicts 1 stack of burning for 3 seconds when it hits.
Of course, to rub in the salt a bit, the ele trait also synergizes with a trait that applies a ton of blind. Imagine if every time dhuumfire procced, the foe was blinded. People would say it was broken. I don’t want eles to be nerfed, but I do want Necros to be buffed, and if ele can have something as strong as this, can’t we get something other than a nerf?
eles stole dhuumfire? no eles always had it and necro stole it. burning precision always existed and u know why? because eles cant play condi it doesnt matter how much burning they get. necro can play condi, we have bleed, poison, fear. thats why dhuumfire was so strong until they deleted it without deleting it. raging about eles who cant use it is just stupid
eles can play condi. I suppose you never met one. but they wreck ppl and they wreck them hard.
that said, necros are not Gods.
Man stole fire from God.
Eles stole fire from Necros?
Not even close.
Engineer:
Incendiary Powder
Your critical hits inflict 4s of burning. Burning you apply lasts 33% longer. This trait has a 10 second internal cooldown.
Read: Over 5 seconds of burning without any additional condition duration.
But who cares? I still prefer our new Dhuumfire to these cheesy traits or the cheesy original dhuumfire. Not only it’s stronger than these traits in my opinion (as long as it remains without any ICD), but it’s on demand and happens when I want it, not when the game desires so.
The passive procs are stronger. It’s been proven how effective passive procs are in this game. Ever since they removed original dhuumfire, nerfed our bleed procs and durations, nerfed our terror damage, nerfed our DS multiple times, condi necro has only been useful in certain comps and even then people figured out it wasn’t worth it when they could have another engi, or even a power necro instead.
It was nerfed because it might be a strong combo with reaper. Nevermind how good players are going to dominate the slow reaper with ease.
I was grouped with a 4man Anet team during stronghold, they are some of the worst players I have ever seen. We got crushed by a full pug group.
The issue is, they are bad at the game and they also play the game…. so they see necro as strong and ignore all the data showing its not strong.
This will never change, necro will always be one of the weaker classes. If it moves to average power level it will get nerfed quickly.
(edited by Xom.9264)
The passive procs are stronger. It’s been proven how effective passive procs are in this game. Ever since they removed original dhuumfire, nerfed our bleed procs and durations, nerfed our terror damage, nerfed our DS multiple times, condi necro has only been useful in certain comps and even then people figured out it wasn’t worth it when they could have another engi, or even a power necro instead.
You aren’t mentioning the buffs necros have received over the years, but I generally agree with you.
Anet seems to be more concerned with improving the Engineer than other classes. The class that has always been on the OP borders and most of the times beyond that.
They can’t use some very strong skills multiple times in one fight so let’s decrease their cooldown. Yeah, that’s their logic for balancing that class (watch Engi section of ready up 35). But when it comes to necro, 1 additional bleed for 2 seconds can be considered overpowered!
Ironically, I like how they approach balancing the necro. I don’t like how they seem to “balance” other classes.
A trait like the new Dhuumfire provides a lot of flexibility and let’s you as the player to think and decide when you want to use it. Cheese traits that give you passive effects randomly may be stronger for the passive player, but they lack intuition and creativity.
As another example, I like how the dev behind Master of Corruption thinks. Could he have been mistaken? Absolutely, but I admire him for taking the risk to make structural and unique changes instead of “hey, let’s decrease the recharge of all engineer skills to make them better!” type of mentality.
(edited by Burjis.3087)
The problem is as they balance necro to require using your brain less proc based. They make other classes more brainless proc based button mashing strong.
Its unreal how perfect you need to play necro to win where other classes can make multiple mistakes and still recover.
My other class is ENG…. its just plain good even if you are average you will do outstanding, if you are a really good player you are OP.
On necro a really good player is at best as useful as an average eng, war, ele, guard in most cases even less useful.
I suck at war, hardly ever play it but when i do shoutbow… in alot of cases I’m stronger then my necro for conquest just button mashing war.
Perhaps because Elementalist have more access to burning by default?
Remember what happened to us when we got Dhuumfire?
They can’t use some very strong skills multiple times in one fight so let’s decrease their cooldown. Yeah, that’s their logic for balancing that class (watch Engi section of ready up 35).
Actually that’s anet nonsense and it made me realise that their ‘reasons’ for skill changes were made after the modifaction of the skills. You see all these cooldown decrease were done because the lost stats change ad not because using skills multiple time.
Remember what happened to us when we got Dhuumfire?
But ele is not necro.
we are already OP strong
one weak dhummfire trait is not going to break us.
we are already OP strong
one weak dhummfire trait is not going to break us.
Wat. You flip flop your story so often on this forum lol.
i posted on this before? can’t remember lol.
i just support or disagree depending on the mood.
Okay, this whole post is kind of silly.
Elementalists get burning precision as an adept trait because burning is the only damaging condition they can stack in threatening quantities. Bleeds on kitten scepter builds don’t count, because if you try to run that, or any form of a dedicated condition elementalist spec, you’re going to be useless. The signet D/F conditon ele build was the best it ever got to be, and the trait that allowed it to function is getting removed. Blinding ashes is a strong trait to be fair, but its balanced by its ICD, which is thankfully being reduced from 5 to 3 seconds.
Now lets look at necromancer. With rabid, and lingering curses, you are able to stack lots of bleeds fairly quickly, and you can even spread them around with epidemic or just use staff marks and whatnot. You have access to enough damaging conditions to run a dedicated condition build, and if you still decide to take terror, you will have arguably the most burst, or the fastest kill potential of any condition build, which is the only way that terrormancer can even stake a niche in this game’s pvp.
Its almost absurd to run a dedicated condition ele after the changes go live, simply because there aren’t enough conditions, damaging or cover or otherwise, nor is there the burst application to justify using it over anything else. It also lacks sustain to an extent compared to celestial elementalist builds. Its called balance. And you can’t have the exact same traits have equal power amongst the different classes, because each class has different strenghts and weaknesses. If necromancers had burning precision as an adept trait in curses, it would be broken as kitten, since they could take terror and LC on top of it, while being able to take something like foot in the grave to be much harder to kill.
So, hopefully by now, its apparent to you why dhuumfire has to be an awkward to use GM, while ele can safely have an on-crit proc.
You realize if you’re spending any significant time burning people you aren’t stacking much of anything else, right? Cleaning burn is practically an alternative to stacking long poisons/bleeds and using epidemic. Much like not spending time to bleed as an elementalist, spending time burning on a Necromancer is essentially a trade off. Burns are very short and Burnett, so you won’t see a lot of burn stacking ONTOP OF bleeds/poisons etc and epidemicing. Not to mention, most things would be dead by time you tried anyways.
Currently, stacking with Scepter and using epidemic is more dps and spread than cleaving burn, and essentially, that’s why wish, that it was a more competitive alternative by making it either 1 second longer or allowing it to affect other shroud skills (namely #4).
All of that said, I don’t necessarily agree with the comparison of Ele trait to Dhuunfire. They fill very different roles. One is a proc not much different than barbed precision and the other is essentially an alternative (but highly specific) condition build centerpiece.
The difference in this case is burning and bleed are the only damaging conditions eles have access too. 2 condi removals = all dots gone and need to be reapplied, This is assuming one doesn’t condi cleanse after he has chill applied to him.
Outside of burning, Necro on the other hand has torment, Bleed, poison, Fear and should you trait for conversion (Like any good condi build would) Confusion. We can also apply alot of aoe chill, Vulnerability and weakness. It’s not about how it’s applied and the condition itself, It’s about how much you can clutter the opponent and re-apply the clutter.
I gotta go with Charlie and nearlight on this one. Eles have a trait to more easily stack burn because they have the hardest time of any profession making a viable condition build.
the problem is why is such a weak skill as dhummfire on a grandmaster trait?
is it there just to fill a spot? it doesn’t have any other use apart from possibly a Reaper spec in future. Even then, surely a melee range Reaper deserves a stronger grandmaster trait especially with all the nerf on chill.
the problem is why is such a weak skill as dhummfire on a grandmaster trait?
is it there just to fill a spot? it doesn’t have any other use apart from possibly a Reaper spec in future. Even then, surely a melee range Reaper deserves a stronger grandmaster trait especially with all the nerf on chill.
Well if it went anywhere else, it’d ruin my idea of going Unyielding Blast → Vital Persistence → Dhuumfire Reaper. So I’d be pretty devastated. :P
Heres the thing, I wish people would realize. Dhuumfire pretty much is only worth it with reaper. Reaper doesn’t have torment, and while you’re spamming away burns it’s a 100% trade off from doing ANYTHING else conditions related (including utilities), and once you drop shroud, you’re locked out of it for 7-10 seconds. It’s a trade off from other application methods, where as a burn proc is simply in addition to anything you were doing previously (and the 20% benefits other burn applications eles do). For that reason, I still say; they are very different in effect. But Dhuumfire NEEDs to be strong on its own because of its requirement of Life force (Shroud uptime), it locks you from your other (And actually, mathematically stronger) condition applications while using it, is shorter and more burst oriented so it doesn’t pair as well with epidemic and essentially requires Reaper’s faster swinging to even make it worth running, as Life blast is essentially half the speed, and as such, Dhuumfire just isn’t very potent with life blast.
Okay, this whole post is kind of silly.
Elementalists get burning precision as an adept trait because burning is the only damaging condition they can stack in threatening quantities. Bleeds on kitten scepter builds don’t count, because if you try to run that, or any form of a dedicated condition elementalist spec, you’re going to be useless. The signet D/F conditon ele build was the best it ever got to be, and the trait that allowed it to function is getting removed. Blinding ashes is a strong trait to be fair, but its balanced by its ICD, which is thankfully being reduced from 5 to 3 seconds.
Now lets look at necromancer. With rabid, and lingering curses, you are able to stack lots of bleeds fairly quickly, and you can even spread them around with epidemic or just use staff marks and whatnot. You have access to enough damaging conditions to run a dedicated condition build, and if you still decide to take terror, you will have arguably the most burst, or the fastest kill potential of any condition build, which is the only way that terrormancer can even stake a niche in this game’s pvp.
Its almost absurd to run a dedicated condition ele after the changes go live, simply because there aren’t enough conditions, damaging or cover or otherwise, nor is there the burst application to justify using it over anything else. It also lacks sustain to an extent compared to celestial elementalist builds. Its called balance. And you can’t have the exact same traits have equal power amongst the different classes, because each class has different strenghts and weaknesses. If necromancers had burning precision as an adept trait in curses, it would be broken as kitten, since they could take terror and LC on top of it, while being able to take something like foot in the grave to be much harder to kill.
So, hopefully by now, its apparent to you why dhuumfire has to be an awkward to use GM, while ele can safely have an on-crit proc.
Some of your post is valid, but you’re leaving out something that you may not be aware of….
There is actual video of Anet explaining WHY they nerfed Dhumfire. They SPECIFICALLY claimed it’s because they didn’t like the passive nature of it…even for a GRANDMASTER trait.
They also claimed that they don’t do “whack-a-mole” nerfs, yet the post nerf Dhumfire requires Life Force and a slow moving projectile to hit. Stats showed it reduced the value of the trait by as much as 60-80%. This is “whack-a-mole” by any objective measure.
Yet…they did NOTHING to change/nerf/buff…OTHER profession traits that are virtually IDENTICAL and aren’t even grandmaster level.
The fact that eles don’t play condi despite having almost perma burning/blind potential speaks to EVEN MORE embarrassment for Anet in other areas…not less.
It’s also important to note that most Necros were AGAINST Dhumfire when it was released. It was the complete opposite of what the community recommended, yet Anet decided in its wisdom to do it anyway.
Their decision proved to be sheer folly because they subsequently had to nerf other things to avoid being proven wrong about Dhumfire, and they STILL eventually had to whack-a-mole it.
If you don’t see the problem with the fact pattern I outlined and think Anet was right, then it’s clear you have no clue what you’re talking about. Please log in to the game…play an hour…and tell me how many condi necros you see playing anymore.
Anet’s logic only makes sense if the goal was to make condi necros virtually extinct and not viable….GRATZ!
I play Necro as my main, and think we shouldn’t have burns. But we should be amped in all other CD areas across the board.
wait for the patch.
condition-rune prices have jumped and i figure condition armor is doing the same. glad i did not salvage any armor, yet. even shaman’s armor is looking better while carrion and sinister could be very good.
watch the prices for consumables and upgrades that extend boon or condition duration, too.
My major gripe is that they really think burning and bleeding are “equal” so they had to nerf our bleeding on crit trait. Really funny,too , cause burning does almost FOUR TIMES as much damage as bleeding PER STACK. Just lovely. And the best part : it scales a lot better with level and condition damage too. So what if ele “only has access to burn and bleed”? Burn is the best condition for damage, period.
And for people that think I’m exxaggerating, these are the forumlas per stack :
Bleed : 2+(0.3*Level)+(0.075 * Condition Damage)
Burn : 7.5+(1.55*Level)+(0.155 * Condition Damage)
Hurray.
(edited by Shiki.7148)
My major gripe is that they really think burning and bleeding are “equal” so they had to nerf our bleeding on crit trait. Really funny,too , cause burning does almost FOUR TIMES as much damage as bleeding PER STACK. Just lovely. And the best part : it scales a lot better with level and condition damage too. So what if ele “only has access to burn and bleed”? Burn is the best condition for damage, period.
And for people that think I’m exxaggerating, these are the forumlas per stack :
Bleed : 2+(0.3*Level)+(0.075 * Condition Damage)
Burn : 7.5+(1.55*Level)+(0.155 * Condition Damage)
Hurray.
Except that ignores the purposeful difference between the two. Bleeds often last MUCH longer. Without any additional condi duration a traited scepter auto will apply like 12 seconds of bleeding. Bleeds are more snowball in nature slow but higher stacks where as burning is more bursty in nature. That has always sort of been the case. The changes for stacking were more aimed at allowing multiple condition players to play together. I dont think you will see ANY single burn build capable of stacking as high as a single bleed build alone. Not to mention, longer conditions blends better with epidemic.
My major gripe is that they really think burning and bleeding are “equal” so they had to nerf our bleeding on crit trait. Really funny,too , cause burning does almost FOUR TIMES as much damage as bleeding PER STACK. Just lovely. And the best part : it scales a lot better with level and condition damage too. So what if ele “only has access to burn and bleed”? Burn is the best condition for damage, period.
And for people that think I’m exxaggerating, these are the forumlas per stack :
Bleed : 2+(0.3*Level)+(0.075 * Condition Damage)
Burn : 7.5+(1.55*Level)+(0.155 * Condition Damage)
Hurray.
Except that ignores the purposeful difference between the two. Bleeds often last MUCH longer. Without any additional condi duration a traited scepter auto will apply like 12 seconds of bleeding. Bleeds are more snowball in nature slow but higher stacks where as burning is more bursty in nature. That has always sort of been the case. The changes for stacking were more aimed at allowing multiple condition players to play together. I dont think you will see ANY single burn build capable of stacking as high as a single bleed build alone. Not to mention, longer conditions blends better with epidemic.
“Last longer” does sure help alot when it gets cleansed after 2-3 ticks or you die because it takes 4 times as many ticks as burn to kill someone… Let’s say you have 20 seconds of bleed and 10 seconds of burn. After 5 seconds you’ll have racked up as much damage with burn as you get with bleed over the full duration. Which one is indefinitly better? Burning of course.
Not that it really matters if “every third crit” you get a few burning stacks. Or cause it with a lot of fire-based skills, i mean it’s not like eles don’t have enough of those. I mean we get a whole 2 stacks of 8 seconds bleed on Mark of Blood. Hurray.
I really wish they’d give Necro – and EXCLUSIVELY Necro – a condition that works like WoW’s “unstable affliction”. Cleanse it and take the burst damage of you lifetime…or rather, death. Otherwise those 20 second bleeds don’t mean jackkitten with stuff like on-hit condi cleansing.
(edited by Shiki.7148)
My major gripe is that they really think burning and bleeding are “equal” so they had to nerf our bleeding on crit trait. Really funny,too , cause burning does almost FOUR TIMES as much damage as bleeding PER STACK. Just lovely. And the best part : it scales a lot better with level and condition damage too. So what if ele “only has access to burn and bleed”? Burn is the best condition for damage, period.
And for people that think I’m exxaggerating, these are the forumlas per stack :
Bleed : 2+(0.3*Level)+(0.075 * Condition Damage)
Burn : 7.5+(1.55*Level)+(0.155 * Condition Damage)
Hurray.
Except that ignores the purposeful difference between the two. Bleeds often last MUCH longer. Without any additional condi duration a traited scepter auto will apply like 12 seconds of bleeding. Bleeds are more snowball in nature slow but higher stacks where as burning is more bursty in nature. That has always sort of been the case. The changes for stacking were more aimed at allowing multiple condition players to play together. I dont think you will see ANY single burn build capable of stacking as high as a single bleed build alone. Not to mention, longer conditions blends better with epidemic.
“Last longer” does sure help alot when it gets cleansed after 2-3 ticks or you die because it takes 4 times as many ticks as burn to kill someone… Let’s say you have 20 seconds of bleed and 10 seconds of burn. After 5 seconds you’ll have racked up as much damage with burn as you get with bleed over the full duration. Which one is indefinitly better? Burning of course.
I didn’t say it was perfect, but that’s the case. Also, bleeds tend to be easier to apply and come across, so getting those stacks is also easier than spammable burns, since afaik the only auto attacks that can sufficiently burn every hit is Scepter 1 Ele, Dhuumfire and a traited warrior Longbow (Which is so short it essentially doesn’t stack). None of which are sufficient ways to realistically stack. The difference is not at all as black and while as you seem to think. Will there need to be a balance update between them? Maybe… But it’s not reasonable to say that yet 100%.
Bleeds: Last longer and are more common.
Burns: Deal more damage, but are short durations and less common outside of burst applications.
My major gripe is that they really think burning and bleeding are “equal” so they had to nerf our bleeding on crit trait. Really funny,too , cause burning does almost FOUR TIMES as much damage as bleeding PER STACK. Just lovely. And the best part : it scales a lot better with level and condition damage too. So what if ele “only has access to burn and bleed”? Burn is the best condition for damage, period.
And for people that think I’m exxaggerating, these are the forumlas per stack :
Bleed : 2+(0.3*Level)+(0.075 * Condition Damage)
Burn : 7.5+(1.55*Level)+(0.155 * Condition Damage)
Hurray.
Except that ignores the purposeful difference between the two. Bleeds often last MUCH longer. Without any additional condi duration a traited scepter auto will apply like 12 seconds of bleeding. Bleeds are more snowball in nature slow but higher stacks where as burning is more bursty in nature. That has always sort of been the case. The changes for stacking were more aimed at allowing multiple condition players to play together. I dont think you will see ANY single burn build capable of stacking as high as a single bleed build alone. Not to mention, longer conditions blends better with epidemic.
“Last longer” does sure help alot when it gets cleansed after 2-3 ticks or you die because it takes 4 times as many ticks as burn to kill someone… Let’s say you have 20 seconds of bleed and 10 seconds of burn. After 5 seconds you’ll have racked up as much damage with burn as you get with bleed over the full duration. Which one is indefinitly better? Burning of course.
I didn’t say it was perfect, but that’s the case. Also, bleeds tend to be easier to apply and come across, so getting those stacks is also easier than spammable burns, since afaik the only auto attacks that can sufficiently burn every hit is Scepter 1 Ele, Dhuumfire and a traited warrior Longbow (Which is so short it essentially doesn’t stack). None of which are sufficient ways to realistically stack. The difference is not at all as black and while as you seem to think. Will there need to be a balance update between them? Maybe… But it’s not reasonable to say that yet 100%.
Bleeds: Last longer and are more common.
Burns: Deal more damage, but are short durations and less common outside of burst applications.
So how does a Necro apply bleed on AA’s without Scepter-1? Not (except a trait which is now equal to the one that gives burn). And now Eles apply it with crits, like engis can. So it is a alot easier to access than one might think. I’d say “make poison almost as strong as burn!” but there is that crappy heal reduction on it which will make that never happen. The problem is, with on-hit cleanses and everybody and their mother (except necros because they don’T have any except crap) running AE-cleansing, higher duration condis are simply indefinitly worse than shorter condis with more damage. Hence my belief we need an unstable affliction-type condition, or something else that REALLY hurts spamming condi-clears.
My major gripe is that they really think burning and bleeding are “equal” so they had to nerf our bleeding on crit trait. Really funny,too , cause burning does almost FOUR TIMES as much damage as bleeding PER STACK. Just lovely. And the best part : it scales a lot better with level and condition damage too. So what if ele “only has access to burn and bleed”? Burn is the best condition for damage, period.
And for people that think I’m exxaggerating, these are the forumlas per stack :
Bleed : 2+(0.3*Level)+(0.075 * Condition Damage)
Burn : 7.5+(1.55*Level)+(0.155 * Condition Damage)
Hurray.
Except that ignores the purposeful difference between the two. Bleeds often last MUCH longer. Without any additional condi duration a traited scepter auto will apply like 12 seconds of bleeding. Bleeds are more snowball in nature slow but higher stacks where as burning is more bursty in nature. That has always sort of been the case. The changes for stacking were more aimed at allowing multiple condition players to play together. I dont think you will see ANY single burn build capable of stacking as high as a single bleed build alone. Not to mention, longer conditions blends better with epidemic.
“Last longer” does sure help alot when it gets cleansed after 2-3 ticks or you die because it takes 4 times as many ticks as burn to kill someone… Let’s say you have 20 seconds of bleed and 10 seconds of burn. After 5 seconds you’ll have racked up as much damage with burn as you get with bleed over the full duration. Which one is indefinitly better? Burning of course.
I didn’t say it was perfect, but that’s the case. Also, bleeds tend to be easier to apply and come across, so getting those stacks is also easier than spammable burns, since afaik the only auto attacks that can sufficiently burn every hit is Scepter 1 Ele, Dhuumfire and a traited warrior Longbow (Which is so short it essentially doesn’t stack). None of which are sufficient ways to realistically stack. The difference is not at all as black and while as you seem to think. Will there need to be a balance update between them? Maybe… But it’s not reasonable to say that yet 100%.
Bleeds: Last longer and are more common.
Burns: Deal more damage, but are short durations and less common outside of burst applications.So what except Scepter auto on Necro applies bleeds on AA’s? Nuthin. And now Eles apply it with crits, like engis can. So it is a alot easier to access than one might think. I’d say “make poison almost as strong as burn!” but there is that crappy heal reduction on it which will make that never happen. The problem is, with on-hit cleanses and everybody and their mother (except necros because they don’T have any except crap) running AE-cleansing, higher duration condis are simply indefinitly worse than shorter condis with more damage. Hence my belief we need an unstable affliction-type condition, or something else that REALLY hurts spamming condi-clears.
I don’t have an answer for your spammy-clear concerns for pvp. I’ve thought for a long time that the way clears were handled was just silly. But regardless, there isn’t much I can do about that, nor do I have a great suggestion to offer. I REALLY don’t think the game needs MORE conditions, and any reasonable idea I had would take so much work on the Devs part that it’s safe to say, they’d never go for it. Still doesn’t really change the fact that it’s easier to build bleeds than burns in many cases. Yes burns to seem a bit superior currently, but at least we have the ability to control our conditions a bit better than others. We’ll see…
The burning for elementalists is very different, because we get a lot more access to other damage conditions in great quantities. (we get a ton of bleeding, poison, and torment all at the same time) So when you add in burning procs on top of that, it gets pretty strong for us.
Meanwhile, most elementalists can’t even run a real conditions build. They could possibly run something like
http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgABdASYBWQ~
and try to maximize their burning and bleeding procs while utilizing knights armor, but it’s still an awkward build. Meanwhile we can use Rabid gear and get tons of condition procs and damage from the curse line alone.
you know that burning precision has been around far longer than dhuumfire, right?
you also realize that dhuumfire procs 100% on hit on an autoattack, and burning precision only procs 33% chance on crit, right?
that means a dhuumfire necro needs zero precision to proc the burning. while the elementalist needs a decent crit rate for the trait to be worth taking.
these two traits are exactly in the tiers they deserve to be, because dhuumfire is much stronger than burning precision and always has been. (since dhuumfire’s inception that is)
you know that burning precision has been around far longer than dhuumfire, right?
you also realize that dhuumfire procs 100% on hit on an autoattack, and burning precision only procs 33% chance on crit, right?
that means a dhuumfire necro needs zero precision to proc the burning. while the elementalist needs a decent crit rate for the trait to be worth taking.
these two traits are exactly in the tiers they deserve to be, because dhuumfire is much stronger than burning precision and always has been. (since dhuumfire’s inception that is)
You do realize that the autoattack you speak of costs us Life Force and is the slowest autoattack in the game? The burning uptime of dhuumfire is so negiligible on a condi spec that it could almost be considered not worth taking.
you know that burning precision has been around far longer than dhuumfire, right?
you also realize that dhuumfire procs 100% on hit on an autoattack, and burning precision only procs 33% chance on crit, right?
that means a dhuumfire necro needs zero precision to proc the burning. while the elementalist needs a decent crit rate for the trait to be worth taking.
these two traits are exactly in the tiers they deserve to be, because dhuumfire is much stronger than burning precision and always has been. (since dhuumfire’s inception that is)
Eh~ like I’ve said, I’m all for being honest and not saying they’re the same…
But no, Dhuumfire isn’t way better. While one is on a crit it is in addition to your normal rotation. Dhuumfire essentially just makes Death shroud not lose all condition damage while you’re in it. A traited Scepter build does far more dps than Dhuumfire attacking.
you know that burning precision has been around far longer than dhuumfire, right?
you also realize that dhuumfire procs 100% on hit on an autoattack, and burning precision only procs 33% chance on crit, right?
that means a dhuumfire necro needs zero precision to proc the burning. while the elementalist needs a decent crit rate for the trait to be worth taking.
these two traits are exactly in the tiers they deserve to be, because dhuumfire is much stronger than burning precision and always has been. (since dhuumfire’s inception that is)
And you do realize that you can keep exactly one little tiny stack of burning on if all you do is use life blast right? Which means you have to stay in shroud and use the games’ slowest projectile right? And you aren’t allowed to use anything else, right?
Also, I’m soley considering Necro for this, as this is a Necromancer trait. Even if Reaper could keep up 4-5 stacks permanently when spamming Reapers Shroud 1, I will not count it here. Thats a Reaper issue and they could easily say “Life Blast does this, Reapers #1 does this”, which they clearly aren’T doing. So again, one of our traits has to suck because it could potentially be slightly above average or even good in a best case scenario.
And that also took a massive nerfbat already (not really, but from the first trait-preview to the current) because they changed their initial lingering curse from “awesome” to “borderline useless”.
Honestly, I currently see no reason to use dhuumfire. It is such a pitiful source of damage, and instead, I could have a stunbreak that doubles as stability.
my response was made to the OP’s comments on the comparison of dhuumfire and burning precision. i was making no attempt to comment on the actual worth of either trait to either class.
burning precision is NOT more powerful than dhuumfire. elementalists did not steal dhuumfire, because elementalists had burning precision before dhuumfire was even a twinkle in ANET’s eye.
if you don’t like dhuumfire, then don’t trait it. saying that burning precision is stronger than dhuumfire is a flat out lie.
personally, i won’t take dhuumfire either, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s stronger (by itself) than burning precision. (by itself)
other trait synergies are another story, however. burning precision at least has synergies with blinding ashes (burning applies blind) and burning rage (+10% damage against burning target). dhuumfire’s only trait synergy (at first glance) is with “target the weak” for an extra 2% crit chance per condition on the target.
Seriously necromancers burning is elected conditions maibe let’s give ekes as good access to poison and bleeding and same base health as you do and I’m neather necro or elementalist as main bleeding poison and fear are ur class conditions so compare them to other classes
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