Healing in Death Shroud just became dire...
Let’s be honest, if we allow heals on shroud, some things would need to be rebalanced, and that mean we would be temporary OP or UP depending on how a-net does it.
But currently, necro is good in 1v1, and sucks in 5v5. Allowing healing from allies on shroud would reduce this disparity. I sometimes play support guardian while my gf plays necro, and it is very difficult when I try to help her to tell “please leave shroud I’m going to heal you” and then for some reason I get interrupted or whatever and I just killed her because she’s now without shroud AND with low health.
Reaper’s Shroud is indeed very good (and will be better once the Axe has 900 range) but I do think you’re giving Death Shroud short shrift. The damage is pretty good, the AoE Vulnerability stacking is good, 3 is amazing for clutch situations, 5 is really strong CC, and 4 can be traited to heal allies while teleporting multiple downed allies out of AoEs. 2 would be better if it weren’t so slow that you could just walk to your target by the time it reaches them, but the others are really strong. A lot of builds specialize in staying in Death Shroud as much as possible just because it has so much going for it.
I said DS is good damage my complaint is the lack of utility that allows you to enact tactics to gain the upper hand outside of plain damage and buying time. And nope, the traited vuln, heal and teleport don’t count: I’m talking of the base skill set and those traits are available to Reaper Shroud too. Tainted Shackles is the worst offender. If it was chill/immobilize or torment/fear I would understand, but torment/immobilize is kitten wrong. Only Doom has real utility. Even aquatic shroud is much better, skills 1-4 have a clear synergy even though it lacks the combo field-finishers of RS.
In terms of base utility, Death Shroud has the following:
**1. None, just damage.
**2. AoE Chill and a teleport.
**3. Instant targeted Fear up to 1200 units away.
**4. None, aside from the Life Force gain.
**5. Delayed AoE Immobilize.
Now, let’s compare it to the base utility of Reaper’s Shroud:
**1. None, aside from the Life Force gain on the 3rd hit.
**2. AoE Blind and movement.
**3. Pulsing Stability which can be expended to cause AoE Fear.
**4. AoE Poison.
**5. Stun + Chill-pulsing Ice field.
Honestly, I don’t see a huge difference between those two. Reaper’s Shroud obviously has a bit more utility overall, but Death Shroud has a range advantage. To put it differently, Reaper’s Shroud needs the marginal utility gain because it will have a much harder time actually applying its damage, but this doesn’t mean Death Shroud is lacking in utility.
You specifically mentioned Tainted Shackles as problematic. While I’ll agree that it was a… curious decision to have a skill start by stacking up Torment only to force foes to minimize the damage from said Torment once it’s finished stacking, this doesn’t negate the utility of the AoE Immobilize. It’s still in our toolbox, even if it’s at odds with a very small portion of our damage.
Finally, I would submit that Transfusion is far better suited to Death Shroud rather than Reaper’s Shroud because the intent is typically to teleport foes out of danger rather than into it, which the base Necro will be able to do more easily without taking a significant DPS loss. Additionally, it seems likely that effective Reaper builds won’t have room for Blood in the first place, making the point moot.
Let’s be honest, if we allow heals on shroud, some things would need to be rebalanced, and that mean we would be temporary OP or UP depending on how a-net does it.
But currently, necro is good in 1v1, and sucks in 5v5. Allowing healing from allies on shroud would reduce this disparity. I sometimes play support guardian while my gf plays necro, and it is very difficult when I try to help her to tell “please leave shroud I’m going to heal you” and then for some reason I get interrupted or whatever and I just killed her because she’s now without shroud AND with low health.
I think we’re all in agreement that Necromancers need to gain a fair benefit from external healing sources even if those external heals are applied whilst we are in Death Shroud / Reaper’s Shroud. The only question is what form that benefit should take.
I main Ele and Necro, though I have an alt of each profession at level 80.
How to Condi Reaper on a budget
Everything I say is only in reference to PvE and WvW.
How to Condi Reaper on a budget
Everything I say is only in reference to PvE and WvW.
(edited by Blaine Tog.8304)
Let’s be honest, if we allow heals on shroud, some things would need to be rebalanced, and that mean we would be temporary OP or UP depending on how a-net does it.
But currently, necro is good in 1v1, and sucks in 5v5. Allowing healing from allies on shroud would reduce this disparity.
You do see the contradiction here, right?
You say we would need a nerf to compensate for the added healing. But it would change almost nothing in 1v1s and add more team synergy for bigger fights, at which we currently do indeed suck.
I sometimes play support guardian while my gf plays necro, and it is very difficult when I try to help her to tell “please leave shroud I’m going to heal you” and then for some reason I get interrupted or whatever and I just killed her because she’s now without shroud AND with low health.
A perfect example for why this needs to change.
Let’s be honest, if we allow heals on shroud, some things would need to be rebalanced, and that mean we would be temporary OP or UP depending on how a-net does it.
But currently, necro is good in 1v1, and sucks in 5v5. Allowing healing from allies on shroud would reduce this disparity.
You do see the contradiction here, right?
You say we would need a nerf to compensate for the added healing. But it would change almost nothing in 1v1s and add more team synergy for bigger fights, at which we currently do indeed suck.
I’m not sure what you mean, but with the nerf, our 1v1 abilities would be reduced and our 5v5 increased. It goes both ways. And I think loosing some 1v1 sustain is perfectly fine. Let’s be honest, currently, if we build for it (for example MM) we can be near-unkillable in 1v1. We won’t become bad in 1v1 even with a (well thought) nerf.
I just meant to point out that you’ve argued against your own concern.
You said we would need to “rebalance some things” if we got more healing, then you said: necro is good in 1v1, and sucks in 5v5. But all more healing through Shroud would do is improve our position in 5v5 and change almost nothing in 1v1s.
I just meant to point out that you’ve argued against your own concern.
You said we would need to “rebalance some things” if we got more healing, then you said: necro is good in 1v1, and sucks in 5v5. But all more healing through Shroud would do is improve our position in 5v5 and change almost nothing in 1v1s.
This has been my argument as well. I mean, I do agree it would likely be enough to shift Necromancer from being always the go-to kill target, but I’m not sure that’s a bad thing. This would have very limited change to 1v1 while making our defensive mechanic not break our team synergy, which ironically, is where we are lacking currently. I’d imagine the bigger fear of this, at least internally, stems from PvE. With RS being able to sustain itself with a Blood/SR/Reaper Build, perhaps it’s too much of a tank for the raid developers, and that I could honestly see. As far as PvE goes though, it would be a boost in all the right areas, and fix the biggest problem, which is terrible design and working against allies.
Let me point out, Mallyx got an entire rehaul due to the fact that it didn’t work well with teams, as teams could cleanse conditions and that felt bad, this is just as much of a glaring issue, of not more-so, specifically as they add healers to the support types.
Necromancer is currently one of the worst in team fights as far as ability to avoid being stomped out, and this change would benefit that without requiring the devs to cave and increase homogenization through more blocks, etc. I just want to play the Necromancer to its best, using its own tools, so long as they work properly.
And lastly, we’re a sponge. If they want to say we have two health bars, then they need to stop treating it like an extensive invulnerability. Nothing about using two different health bars suggests that healing should no longer benefit your health bars.
End rant stuff. This can work, even if they need to move some things around. It’s honestly a good time to fix 3 year design flaws of the Necromancer before the class changes slow down after HoT.
High Warlord Sikari (80 Reaper) / Lord Siekron (80 DH)
Warlord Sikari (80 Scrapper)
Warlord Sikari (80 Scrapper)
Also, Flow, now that we have a bit more healing in death shroud and with Reaper incoming, I can say with absolute certainty that unrestricted healing in death shroud would be horrendously OP. Even just with adding siphons to what can heal us, Necro survivability jumped pretty significantly when running blood magic. Blighter’s Boon has already been catching complaints about how tanky it makes us.
If heals of less than 150 are doing that, what do you think heals of 3k+ would do?
3k+ in what time frame? Once every 10 sec maybe, that would change nothing except QoL for team skill rotations.
A single Ventari Revenant pumps that out every 2 seconds with ease, and that’s without investing in healing power or outgoing healing. With, you’re easily seeing heals of 3k per second if they’re being conservative with their energy. If they’re not, you’re looking at easy 6k h/s
And that is just one player.
100% healing in Death Shroud would make us the most broken thing the game has seen. This much I can garuntee. Healing while your health can’t be touched is much, much stronger than healing normally. I cannot stress this enough.
“But other classes can get healed through blocks/invulnerabilitie/etc.” Stop. Just stop.
Do you know why those don’t unbalance the game, but doing the same with shroud would? Because Shroud’s uptime is vastly higher than that of blocks or invulnerabilities. It’s not uncommon for Necros to spend 40% of a fight in Shroud. It is uncommon for anyone else to spend that much time blocking or going invulnerable.
Plus, most blocks and invulnerabilities don’t let you keep up offense during them. Shroud does.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
A single Ventari Revenant pumps that out every 2 seconds with ease, and that’s without investing in healing power or outgoing healing. With, you’re easily seeing heals of 3k per second if they’re being conservative with their energy. If they’re not, you’re looking at easy 6k h/s
Again, how would this make necros any better than another class receiving that kind of healing?
Also, if this was a real fight, do you really think the opponents of that duo would let the rev heal his ally all the time? It would be the easiest fight ever, stun and kill the revenant first and from then on it’s a 2v1 against the necro. Comps like these already exist, they are bad and easy to outplay.
100% healing in Death Shroud would make us the most broken thing the game has seen. This much I can garuntee. Healing while your health can’t be touched is much, much stronger than healing normally. I cannot stress this enough.
Just… no. This much I can guarantee! :P
Healing while your health can’t be touched by a life force pool is exactly the same as getting healed when you’re stealthed or invuln or blocking or running condi immunities against condi builds or direct dmg immunities against power builds.
I can’t stress enough how much you’re overestimating our Shroud and how wrong you are about all of it.
“But other classes can get healed through blocks/invulnerabilitie/etc.” Stop. Just stop.
Do you know why those don’t unbalance the game, but doing the same with shroud would? Because Shroud’s uptime is vastly higher than that of blocks or invulnerabilities. It’s not uncommon for Necros to spend 40% of a fight in Shroud.
Again, wrong.
Real mature, there, flow. You don’t have evidence to back up your claim whereas looking at how durable what we already get makes us backs me up rather well.
Yes, we need more than we currently have, especially if ANet wants dedicated healer specs to be a thing in this game. This I will back up entirely.
But full healing? No we do not.
My Revenant example is not a one-way street. The Revenant, for example, does have the ability to run rather defensively even while sticking with just Ventari out. They will be a tough nut to crack even without the Necro pressuring and running interference. It’s not difficult to get high Protection and Blind uptime (actually easier with running Ventari than other legends) and they can get on-demand Stability (2 stacks if running Herald, one of which lasts for ~6 seconds) without using a skill. Factor in evasion/block skills from weapons… yeah. And none of this is reducing their healing output, since it’s largely instant cast.
And again, that healing is from only one player. More meta team comps would include a Shoutbow Warrior and D/D Celementalist, meaning equivalent or better heals rolling in which, on the Necro, cannot be counteracted with DPS
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
Real mature, there, flow. You don’t have evidence to back up your claim whereas looking at how durable what we already get makes us backs me up rather well.
Chill dude. Also, the statement “look how durable..” doesn’t back you up any better than me saying “look how fast I die, and look how I wouldn’t have died if I actually got the healing my ally tried to use on me.”
And again, that healing is from only one player. More meta team comps would include a Shoutbow Warrior and D/D Celementalist, meaning equivalent or better heals rolling in which, on the Necro, cannot be counteracted with DPS
And again, how would a necro benefit from such a composition more than a different class? Are you suggesting that dps is a counter to invuln, blocks or evades? Are you suggesting that another ele in that group couldn’t rotate through fire and air attunement while your rev, shoutbow and second ele are healing that player for the full amount until that ele can heal himself when back in water?
And no, Shroud having a higher uptime doesn’t make it better or more sustainable than those other mechanics.
All you do is come up with outlier scenarios that only prove my point rather than yours.
Real mature, there, flow. You don’t have evidence to back up your claim whereas looking at how durable what we already get makes us backs me up rather well.
Chill dude. Also, the statement “look how durable..” doesn’t back you up any better than me saying “look how fast I die, and look how I wouldn’t have died if I actually got the healing my ally tried to use on me.”
And again, that healing is from only one player. More meta team comps would include a Shoutbow Warrior and D/D Celementalist, meaning equivalent or better heals rolling in which, on the Necro, cannot be counteracted with DPS
And again, how would a necro benefit from such a composition more than a different class? Are you suggesting that dps is a counter to invuln, blocks or evades? Are you suggesting that another ele in that group couldn’t rotate through fire and air attunement while your rev, shoutbow and second ele are healing that player for the full amount until that ele can heal himself when back in water?
And no, Shroud having a higher uptime doesn’t make it better or more sustainable than those other mechanics.
All you do is come up with outlier scenarios that only prove my point rather than yours.
Yes, higher uptime does make it more sustainable. When you are protecting your health for longer periods, that automatically makes it more sustainable. That’s pretty much the definition of “sustain” is protecting your health for as long as possible, and yes, Necros can protect theirs for far longer than anyone else. Where we currently fall short is in the ability to replenish health, even though we can protect it for longer.
I am not bringing up outlier or unlikely scenarios; anyone with team-wide healing would make a significant impact on the Necro staying alive. DPS is a counter to healing, not blocks or invulnerabilities.
Think: how much healing can you recieve during a 3 second block followed by 4 second direct damage immunity? A lot, right? After all, Warriors enjoy this and don’t become overpowered.
How much healing can you receive during a 15 second period where your health can’t be touched? Even in teamfights, it’s not terribly difficult for a Necro to spend that long in Shroud. The correct answer should be “over twice as much”.
Now, how often can a Warrior benefit from Shield Stance into Endure Pain? On average, about once every 30 seconds.
How often can a Necro benefit from Shroud? On average, about a 15 second period in between.
So the expected healing to a Necro while their health is protected? Roughly four times greater than that which a Warrior can enjoy. And the Necro doesn’t lose out on protection against condition damage or unblockable attacks.
And you keep saying to ignore the betas because “everyone was bad then.” Yes, everyone was bad. Including the Necros that nobody could kill.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
Also, Flow, now that we have a bit more healing in death shroud and with Reaper incoming, I can say with absolute certainty that unrestricted healing in death shroud would be horrendously OP. Even just with adding siphons to what can heal us, Necro survivability jumped pretty significantly when running blood magic. Blighter’s Boon has already been catching complaints about how tanky it makes us.
If heals of less than 150 are doing that, what do you think heals of 3k+ would do?
3k+ in what time frame? Once every 10 sec maybe, that would change nothing except QoL for team skill rotations.
A single Ventari Revenant pumps that out every 2 seconds with ease, and that’s without investing in healing power or outgoing healing. With, you’re easily seeing heals of 3k per second if they’re being conservative with their energy. If they’re not, you’re looking at easy 6k h/s
And that is just one player.
100% healing in Death Shroud would make us the most broken thing the game has seen. This much I can garuntee. Healing while your health can’t be touched is much, much stronger than healing normally. I cannot stress this enough.
“But other classes can get healed through blocks/invulnerabilitie/etc.” Stop. Just stop.
Do you know why those don’t unbalance the game, but doing the same with shroud would? Because Shroud’s uptime is vastly higher than that of blocks or invulnerabilities. It’s not uncommon for Necros to spend 40% of a fight in Shroud. It is uncommon for anyone else to spend that much time blocking or going invulnerable.
Plus, most blocks and invulnerabilities don’t let you keep up offense during them. Shroud does.
not op the necro alone can’t heal while in ds even if they allow it because ds interupts skills. yes if they allow it it will be good but def not op and what is the point to get heals if your life is 100% your comment only shows how good are the ranger and rev heals nothing more
not op the necro alone can’t heal while in ds even if they allow it because ds interupts skills. yes if they allow it it will be good but def not op and what is the point to get heals if your life is 100% your comment only shows how good are the ranger and rev heals nothing more
The Necro can heal himself in death shroud with trait choices already, and can actually recover a very respectable amount of health that way. It’s easy to get a healing skill’s worth of recovery while in death shroud as a base Necro. Reaper will be able to do moreso (though, being at greater risk, deserves it).
Again, I agree we need more than we currently get, and allied heals need to not be totally wasted on us while we’re in shroud, but 100% healing is not it. A reduced amount would be fine.
not op the necro alone can’t heal while in ds even if they allow it because ds interupts skills. yes if they allow it it will be good but def not op and what is the point to get heals if your life is 100% your comment only shows how good are the ranger and rev heals nothing more
The Necro can heal himself in death shroud with trait choices already, and can actually recover a very respectable amount of health that way. It’s easy to get a healing skill’s worth of recovery while in death shroud as a base Necro. Reaper will be able to do moreso (though, being at greater risk, deserves it).
Again, I agree we need more than we currently get, and allied heals need to not be totally wasted on us while we’re in shroud, but 100% healing is not it. A reduced amount would be fine.
if you are talking blood magic that thing is only good with dagger and even if we get 50% heals in shroud i will take it or even split the heal in half to give example 500 lf and 500 hp if heal is 1k
Okay, please, try punctuation. It really makes things a lot easier to read and does a better job of getting your point across. If you’re posting from your phone…you can still use punctuation.
Aside from that, I was referring more along the lines of Unholy Sanctuary (Shrouded Removal is a great trait too, it’s just Master tier where things are iffy), but Blood Magic does a decent job as well. It’s rather good even if you don’t wield dagger (Blood Bond is a good trait, albeit bugged to not heal as it should through shroud). Life From Death is a very strong heal with some healing power, though without, you may go with Vampiric Presence instead for some in-shroud sustain. Or Banshee’s Wail for more sustain of shroud itself.
Okay, please, try punctuation. It really makes things a lot easier to read and does a better job of getting your point across. If you’re posting from your phone…you can still use punctuation.
Aside from that, I was referring more along the lines of Unholy Sanctuary (Shrouded Removal is a great trait too, it’s just Master tier where things are iffy), but Blood Magic does a decent job as well. It’s rather good even if you don’t wield dagger (Blood Bond is a good trait, albeit bugged to not heal as it should through shroud). Life From Death is a very strong heal with some healing power, though without, you may go with Vampiric Presence instead for some in-shroud sustain. Or Banshee’s Wail for more sustain of shroud itself.
1. Necromancer Skills
Skills that give you Regeneration in shroud do not heal you, skills that siphon health have inconsistent Rules. Interestingly, the Necromancer has the most Regeneration on weapon skills of any class, but these skills don’t heal you in shroud.
Signet of Vampirism. active siphoning Effect HEALS in Shroud
Blood Fiend siphoning attacks do not heal in shroud
Mark of Blood does not heal in shroud
Well of Blood does not heal in shroud
Well of Power cannot heal you in shroud
Reaper’s Touch does not heal you in shroud
2. Necromancer Traits
Some healing traits heal you in shroud. Some dont. The traits that heal you in shroud are mostly siphons located in Blood Magic, but not all Blood magic healing traits or even blood magic siphon traits heal you in shroud
Spiteful Renewal. does not heal in shroud
Parasitic Contagion does not heal in shroud
Mark of Evasion does not heal in shroud
Ritual of Life does not heal in shroud
Transfusion does not heal in shroud
Blood Bond does not heal in shroud
Soul Eater does not heal in shroud, it provides no bonuses at all to your shroud while you are wielding a greatsword
Unholy Sanctuary HEALS in shroud
Vampiric does heal
Vampiric Presence HEALS in shoud
Vampiruc Rituals. HEALS in shroud
Blighter’s Boon. Heals in shroud
3. Healing From Allies
Healing from allies does not work in shroud, whether direct healing, the regeneration boon, or combo field interaction. The exception is that an allied necromancer with Vampiric Presence gives you a buff that will let you siphon health in shroud regardless of whether you have Blood magic equipped
4. Combo Fields
Interactions with Combo fields will not heal you.
Leap through water field Does not heal
Whirl through water field “Healing Bolts” Does not heal
Whirl through Dark Field “Leeching Bolts” Does not heal
5. Runes
Runes will not heal you in shroud regardless of whether the heal is a direct heal, a siphon, or the Regeneration boon
Superior Rune of Vampirism. Will not heal you in shroud
Superior Rune of Dwayna Will not heal you.
Superior Rune of Lyssa Will not heal you
Superior Rune of the Dolyak Will not heal you
6. Sigils
Sigils will not heal you in Shroud regardless of whether the heal is the regeneration boon, lifesteal, or a direct heal
Superior Sigil of Water will not heal
Superior Sigil of Luck will not heal
Superior Sigil of Blood will not heal
superior sigil of Leeching will not heal
Superior Sigil of Restoration will not heal
Superior Sigil of Renewal will not heal
7. Food
Effects from Food will not heal you in shroud, whether direct healing effects, heal on pric effects or lifesteal effects
Congrats, you can list sources of healing. It should be noted, however, that Blood Bond should heal through death shroud, but is bugged to not do so.
However, that list is helpful. It brings up new steps that can be taken in the interest of improving Necro healing and reception of teamplay. For example, the next step I would do (and would actually do it in tomorrow’s patch, but I’m not a dev) would be simply letting the Regeneration boon, Parasitic Contagion, and Spiteful Renewal heal through shroud.
Notice I said “step.” Gear (including food) procs would be the next step. Skills would start to be expanded on next.
Congrats, you can list sources of healing. It should be noted, however, that Blood Bond should heal through death shroud, but is bugged to not do so.
However, that list is helpful. It brings up new steps that can be taken in the interest of improving Necro healing and reception of teamplay. For example, the next step I would do (and would actually do it in tomorrow’s patch, but I’m not a dev) would be simply letting the Regeneration boon, Parasitic Contagion, and Spiteful Renewal heal through shroud.
Notice I said “step.” Gear (including food) procs would be the next step. Skills would start to be expanded on next.
I’m not sure that is the route to go, really. Personally, these “steps” and hidden rules hair create confusion and frustration for players. You have to look at this at all angles and that includes less conditioned players. The thing is, it could be a very easy tuning handle if they just made it a bit more intuitive. For instance (not to be precise, but just as an example) rather than having blood traits and Regen work, instead do this:
Add to death shroud text “While in death shroud, healing received is reduced by 50%.”
This would include blood traits etc, but they could then make blood traits stronger while out of shroud, factoring in less benefit while in shroud (aka absorbing damage, preventing shroud from spiking health too much, but allowing blood to be stronger outside of shroud).
And simply add to Blighter’s boon and Unholy Sanctuary “Healing is not reduced by shroud dampening.” (As they are shroud-only heals, would be strange to reduce them in shroud).
Then there you go, you have a nice handle that you can move up and down to 25%-75% or remove the dampening all together if possible (which is doubtful). But the overall goal is to make playing with allies not punishing, and make the game a bit more intuitive. I would gladly take normalized but reduced healing in shroud than a handful of things that work and a handful of things that don’t work at all.
High Warlord Sikari (80 Reaper) / Lord Siekron (80 DH)
Warlord Sikari (80 Scrapper)
Warlord Sikari (80 Scrapper)
Yeah, if anyone has doubts about how strong healing in DS would be go play SR/Unholy Sanctuary Cleric MM, where every time you use DS you basically reset the entire fight. Now imagine every single build being able to do that all the time without the heavy investment.
I do think they need to address healing in DS in some way, but I don’t think 100% would work without massively nerfing the LF pool.
Yeah, if anyone has doubts about how strong healing in DS would be go play SR/Unholy Sanctuary Cleric MM, where every time you use DS you basically reset the entire fight. Now imagine every single build being able to do that all the time without the heavy investment.
I do think they need to address healing in DS in some way, but I don’t think 100% would work without massively nerfing the LF pool.
I don’t see a problem with that, a lot of classes can already heal to full constantly by themselves. This would actually require a teammate to help you. It also goes to the point that necros need less health+DS. It would allow us proper sustain, and wouldn’t kitten us from teamwork.
The overarching point is not about balance, the design of DS to not allow healing doesn’t make sense. Teamwork should be encouraged. I’d be willing to take a big hit to total HP+DS if it meant weapons generated LF better, and teammates could heal us in shroud. That is the definition of more sustain, which is what their design is supposed to do.
Necros don’t have reflects, invulns, vigor, blocks,
extra dodges, real stability, mobility skills,
burst skills, sustain, or good support. GG ANET.
extra dodges, real stability, mobility skills,
burst skills, sustain, or good support. GG ANET.
Yeah, if anyone has doubts about how strong healing in DS would be go play SR/Unholy Sanctuary Cleric MM, where every time you use DS you basically reset the entire fight. Now imagine every single build being able to do that all the time without the heavy investment.
I do think they need to address healing in DS in some way, but I don’t think 100% would work without massively nerfing the LF pool.
it won’t be at that lvl but if they do what you say they have to remove ds degen and cooldown time to make it balanced
Think: how much healing can you recieve during a 3 second block followed by 4 second direct damage immunity? A lot, right? After all, Warriors enjoy this and don’t become overpowered.
How much healing can you receive during a 15 second period where your health can’t be touched? Even in teamfights, it’s not terribly difficult for a Necro to spend that long in Shroud. The correct answer should be “over twice as much”.
Now, how often can a Warrior benefit from Shield Stance into Endure Pain? On average, about once every 30 seconds.
How often can a Necro benefit from Shroud? On average, about a 15 second period in between.
So the expected healing to a Necro while their health is protected? Roughly four times greater than that which a Warrior can enjoy. And the Necro doesn’t lose out on protection against condition damage or unblockable attacks.
See, that’s where you’re wrong.
You are making several assumptions here that will never happen in an actual pvp match (and are therefore outliers):
1. Warriors heal for a lot during their 3 sec block.
Why? Who says this always happens? Is there an npc following them around that automatically heals them for “a lot” once they activate a block skill?
2. If a warrior heals “a lot” in X time, necros will heal twice as much in twice that time frame.
Why? This is NEVER happening in actual fights. There aren’t always people ready to spam heals only because a necro or warrior or whoever else decides to use one of their defensive skills.
3. You are only arriving at the conclusion that warriors have a lower uptime of their stances and blocks than the Shroud of necros because you’re assuming that your hypothetical fight will last for several minutes.
What if that fight is much shorter, like less than 20 seconds? In that time a warrior can use his traited stances + the Last Stand proc and total 10 sec each for Berserker Stance and Endure Pain. Add stability, some dodges, a few Whirlwind Attacks and maybe Rampage to top it all off.
During this shorter time the warrior’s defenses far surpasses the uptime of any necro’s Shroud.
4. You’re assuming that necros spend 40% of their fighting time in Shroud and will access it every 15 seconds. So that would be 10 sec of Shroud every 25 seconds. And in that time they would presumably get healed back to full by allies, yes?
Why? Who are those incompetent opponents?
Are you fighting training golems? Is this in PvE?
Seriously, this is NEVER happening against half decent players. And it will certainly never ever happen where balance actually matters: against top players.
5. And last but not least:
You keep pretending that Shroud is this warm blanky we can retreat into, where we can just chill and weather the storm that is raging outside until we’re good and ready to expose ourselves to the real dangers again!
This is just not true. Life force is a valuable and finite resource. Taking damage against it is nothing you can just shrug off as basically having taken no damage at all. While it arguably is less precious than actual hp, you still have to manage it carefully and you will not always be able to replenish as much of it as you pretend we can do.
Also, unlike invulns/blocks/etc… in Shroud you can get stunned, your allies can get stunned if they try to peel (or heal) for you, you’re susceptible to all kinds of hard and soft CC without proper tools to defend against it. And even if you absorb most damage with life force, there’s a good chance condition damage and bigger hits will overflow to your regular hp once your lf is gone.
Just heal and regen lf once you’re outside of Shroud? No! Any decent opponent will not let this happen if they get the opportunity!
I don’t know how much more obvious it could be: your hypotheticals about necro becoming op and/or unkillable are purely based on fights that are never happening. And even if they did, it wouldn’t be because healing through Shroud is op, but because their opponents are terrible players.
Yeah, if anyone has doubts about how strong healing in DS would be go play SR/Unholy Sanctuary Cleric MM, where every time you use DS you basically reset the entire fight. Now imagine every single build being able to do that all the time without the heavy investment.
I do think they need to address healing in DS in some way, but I don’t think 100% would work without massively nerfing the LF pool.
1. Like I said, removing the 50% dmg bug would be a massive nerf to our lf pool, and that needs to happen anyway. Although I think 50% of what it is now would be way to low even if we got more healing.
2. SR/Unholy Sanctuary Cleric MM might heal for a lot but it’s easily outplayed, even more so when you bring it into team fights.
3. What makes you think that unlocking healing through Shroud would give any regular build the same kind of healing as a cleric MM?
The biggest self healing contributor to regular necros would be regeneration, and that would only tick for half the amount of a cleric necro.
Basically, you’re assuming that ally heals in the time frame you spend in Shroud would add up to the equivalent of a cleric MM self healing capability.
Well, that’s wrong of course, but who says there are allies at all?
I really don’t get how healing through Shroud makes some people think that this would automatically mean 1000000000 hp/s regen in Shroud, and only in Shroud?
Seriously, how much are you guys getting healed for outside of DS now? From my personal experience: somewhere between nothing and ~2-3k every 10 sec from regen and allies. Of course a lot more sometimes from waterfield blasts or guardians but that is not the norm, this doesn’t happen all the time and it will certainly not happen more often when healing through Shroud is unlocked.
1. The warrior isn’t getting healing from nowhere just like the Necro wouldn’t be getting it from nowhere. The sources are the same, and in-combat healing in general tends to be more of an over-time thing outside of your own heal skill. So yes, time spent protecting your health matters a lot.
2. Again, it’s because people aren’t waiting for a defensive skill to go off to throw out heals that uptime matters. The heals are coming in all the time, but usually incoming damage is mitigating their effectiveness. Those defensive abilities are when that is not the case, so higher uptime means more effectively healed.
3. If the fight isn’t lasting for several minutes, it’s because one side is dead quickly. It’s the rare fight in PvP that doesn’t last at least 30 seconds. If one side is dead quickly, clearly healing (even incidental) really wasn’t much of a thing. Of course, in such a short fight, it is possible the Necro spends 80%+ in shroud himself, especially once Reaper hits. Even without Reaper, popping Locust Swarm and jumping into shroud is a common tactic.
4. In a teamfight? Yes. Yes that would happen. It’s easy in a teamfight to receive massive amounts of healing with D/D eles, shoutbows, and/or bunker guardians on the team. Even just a 3v3, which happens decently often, throws out a lot more healing than you would expect. Again, I will point to Blighter’s Boon, because we have experienced that. Heals of less than 150 and yet it completely screwed the “focus the Necro first” strategy. Those same classes that are spitting out boons to us? They’re simultaneously farting out much larger amounts of healing. This is largely incidental in nature and part of standard rotations! So focusing them when they’re healing the necro is no easier than doing it now.
5. I have never described anything of the sort regarding death shroud, but it is a powerful defensive tool. Managing shroud in teamfights is easier than you make it out to be via Locust Swarm and spectrals. Spending 10-15 seconds is easy, and you’re not “retreating.” You’re still keeping up offensive pressure. Regenerating life force in 15 seconds is likewise fairly easy.
6. This is more relating to your response to Bhawb’s comment, but if there aren’t allies around, not a ton changes from how we are now. Other than Transfusion getting overpowered as hell, anyway.
1. The warrior isn’t getting healing from nowhere just like the Necro wouldn’t be getting it from nowhere. The sources are the same, and in-combat healing in general tends to be more of an over-time thing outside of your own heal skill. So yes, time spent protecting your health matters a lot.
2. Again, it’s because people aren’t waiting for a defensive skill to go off to throw out heals that uptime matters. The heals are coming in all the time, but usually incoming damage is mitigating their effectiveness. Those defensive abilities are when that is not the case, so higher uptime means more effectively healed.
3. If the fight isn’t lasting for several minutes, it’s because one side is dead quickly. It’s the rare fight in PvP that doesn’t last at least 30 seconds. If one side is dead quickly, clearly healing (even incidental) really wasn’t much of a thing. Of course, in such a short fight, it is possible the Necro spends 80%+ in shroud himself, especially once Reaper hits. Even without Reaper, popping Locust Swarm and jumping into shroud is a common tactic.
4. In a teamfight? Yes. Yes that would happen. It’s easy in a teamfight to receive massive amounts of healing with D/D eles, shoutbows, and/or bunker guardians on the team. Even just a 3v3, which happens decently often, throws out a lot more healing than you would expect. Again, I will point to Blighter’s Boon, because we have experienced that. Heals of less than 150 and yet it completely screwed the “focus the Necro first” strategy. Those same classes that are spitting out boons to us? They’re simultaneously farting out much larger amounts of healing. This is largely incidental in nature and part of standard rotations! So focusing them when they’re healing the necro is no easier than doing it now.
5. I have never described anything of the sort regarding death shroud, but it is a powerful defensive tool. Managing shroud in teamfights is easier than you make it out to be via Locust Swarm and spectrals. Spending 10-15 seconds is easy, and you’re not “retreating.” You’re still keeping up offensive pressure. Regenerating life force in 15 seconds is likewise fairly easy.
6. This is more relating to your response to Bhawb’s comment, but if there aren’t allies around, not a ton changes from how we are now. Other than Transfusion getting overpowered as hell, anyway.
I dont know why but your comment just make flow’s win lol, and in a team fight if the necro goes to ds and he have full hp that normally happens he gets healed for 0
You…do realize the whole discussion is regarding the hypothetical scenario that Necros got full healing in shroud, right? We all know what happens now.
Well… at this point its obvious ANet is trying to force healers/support builds onto Raids. We’ll see if it happens, because ANet is notoriously bad (they know this too) so it is entirely possible that it won’t be the case, however, the dire situation is pretty much confirmed: no healing through DS will be a major hamper to Necro, basically solidifying that the only time we’ll be used is for solo content within raids, if that happens to be a thing.
Hopefully the base changes come around and fix this somehow, but I just don’t see how we’ll be wanted at this point. Not only do we not play well as far as offensively buffing our allies, but at this point our allies can’t even help us with entire builds in some cases.
Couldn’t agree more. We are becoming the PERFECT SELFISH character in a multiplayer game based on teamwork…. simply and plain wrong approach.
If at the end of the day the team wins and what needs to die dies then I am perfectly fine with being selfish as long as im not being punished for it.