Guild Wars 2

And if you don’t seem to understand the impact of your suggestions, then just stop all together. Glad that you changed the name of the thread to reflect the real issue, but fixing this doesn’t include nerfing Consume Conditions.

Think of it this way, all three heals serve different purposes, however, all three heals should have the same amount of healing after a while:
Well of Blood: It doesn’t consume conditions, and I don’t think it should. The main purpose of this is to grant you an immediate heal as well as an AOE heal for support and extra heals if you stand on it.
Blood Fiend: It was buffed not long ago, and I think the toughness should be buffed for it to last longer. Although feast doesn’t grant as much as immediate heal as other skills, the blood fiend is constantly draining health to you. This is basically same as other classes signet, where they heal upon attacking.
Consume Condition: Considering necromancers are masters of conditions, it is logical to have something where it shows as such, the direct heal from it is equal that of the well of blood, except that any extra heal is related to how many conditions you have on you. It is stronger than well of blood when you think of it as single heal, however it serves absolutely nothing in support. That’s where Well of Blood shines.

This is why, nerfing that skill will fix nothing. If you want to make Well of Blood shine, increase the after heal effects done, and if you want the blood fiend to shine, increase its toughness to last a little more.

sorrow.2364:

That is not true at all.
Warriors use Healing Surge and Mending on the same level. Only Healing signet needs to be looked at, but it is another issue.
Elementalists have all the heals equally useful.
Guardians use both Signet and Shelter as much both in PvE and in PvE.
Engineers have Elixir and Turrets which are equally useful. Don’t know about Med kit.
Rangers use pretty much Healing Spring because of the combo field, but Troll Unguent and Heal as One are equally viable.
Thief have all heals viable. Withdraw and HiS are on the same level, signet is useful with high hit rates (P/P, for instance).
Mesmers suffer the same issue of Necromancers. Ether Feast is too strong to bring Mantra or Mirror.

Warriors: The signet is a PVE thing, plain and simple
Guardians: The signet is used when traited for it, shelter is used otherwise.
Engis: Med kit > other heals, especially when traited. Equally, traiting the other heals makes them equally, though differently useful
Rangers: Healing Spring is used most thanks to the heal blast finish it can provide. However, unguent/heal as one are perfectly fine roaming/soloing heals
Thief: no comment there
Mesmer: The mantra has its use in a mantra build ( traits ). Ether feast is fine. Mirror is used by many a mesmer in WvW ( reflect anyone? Combined with reflecting phantasms + focus = whoop whoop).

As you can see, the heals can get BETTER when TRAITED. And by that I mean traits focussed on the heals, not traits healing you on the side ( aka not using your heal skill ), which is what you are proposing. Why? Because not everyone uses the same tree and thus, it would mean an unnecessary nerf to builds that are not your own.

Also, are we useless in PvE? We are the most tough profession in PvE, to be honest.

Nope, Guardians are. When’s the last time you heard someone say “Get a necro so we can survive on maw in 40+ fractals”? Right, never.

Anyway, with your answer you proved what I said. You don’t really care about balance as far your build works. You just don’t want any nerf.
That said, I don’t think that this mindset is the right one to approach this kind of thread.

He proved nothing. You are taking things out of context ( also ignoring what other people are proposing, namely, buffing the other heals ). Consume Conditions is fine. The only thing I may agree in is to slightly nerf the healing coefficient from healing power ( which someone else already proposed, but you decided to ignore it ), and even that is a stretch.

The Blood Fiend has only one flaw: he’s a minion. Minions are not in a good place right now and need a workover badly in general.

Well of Blood: this is mostly a PvE heal. Hell, it’s the heal I use in PvE (over consume conditions ). Why? Because in PvE, I won’t be laden with conditions as soon as a mob looks at me funny ( invaders on the other hand … ). How to boost this one? Well, it’s a well of BLOOD, so having it do x extra healing for each enemy standing in it would be a start (don’t know if someone already mentioned this).

Back to CC: The necro is known to put conditions ON HIMSELF. Therefor, the extra loss of life must be mitigated somehow. Also, notice it’s CONSUME conditions, not SNEEZE OFF conditions.

So in conclusion: all you are doing is trying to push YOUR view on all of us, ignoring valid ideas and arguments, dismissing explanations as to why your idea is a bad one, playing the victim (boo hoo, we’re all against you) and generally being a pain in the butt.

I reiterate what I said before: You truely are the Westboro Baptist Church of necromancers.

Azraeel.1238:

And if you don’t seem to understand the impact of your suggestions, then just stop all together. Glad that you changed the name of the thread to reflect the real issue, but fixing this doesn’t include nerfing Consume Conditions.

Think of it this way, all three heals serve different purposes, however, all three heals should have the same amount of healing after a while:
Well of Blood: It doesn’t consume conditions, and I don’t think it should. The main purpose of this is to grant you an immediate heal as well as an AOE heal for support and extra heals if you stand on it.
Blood Fiend: It was buffed not long ago, and I think the toughness should be buffed for it to last longer. Although feast doesn’t grant as much as immediate heal as other skills, the blood fiend is constantly draining health to you. This is basically same as other classes signet, where they heal upon attacking.
Consume Condition: Considering necromancers are masters of conditions, it is logical to have something where it shows as such, the direct heal from it is equal that of the well of blood, except that any extra heal is related to how many conditions you have on you. It is stronger than well of blood when you think of it as single heal, however it serves absolutely nothing in support. That’s where Well of Blood shines.

This is why, nerfing that skill will fix nothing. If you want to make Well of Blood shine, increase the after heal effects done, and if you want the blood fiend to shine, increase its toughness to last a little more.

You don’t need to explain me every healing skills. I’ve spent quite a time playing Necromancer, I think that, at least, I know how healing skills work.

Said that, Necromancer isn’t a good healing support profession. He is quite good at controlling condition and boons but it is absolutely horrible at healing.
WoB needs a lot of healing power invested to give significant healing, which is a stat that is worth nothing on the whole profession except for that skill.

So, bringing WoB over consume conditions means giving up on stats freedom, having an healing skill on longer cooldown, loss of condition removal potential and overall less healing.
There is no reason to bring WoB at all, except if you want to feel you are supporting your team somehow, but in that case, you can just bring WoP, WoD, Spectral Wall and Transfusion supporting your team better without all the drawbacks of WoB.

Blood Fiend, on the other hand, can be quite a good healing skill if it wasn’t floating around and be killed anytime.
The healing it gives doesn’t pay off the risk you are taking. Comparing it to CC, you are losing reliability (which is HUGE on healing skill), instant condition cleansing and healing capability.
There is no reason here too to bring Blood Fiend over CC. The only advantages over CC is that you have another minion, which means about 300 damage and 100hp every 2s (if it attacks) and, depending on traits, a single condition cleansed every 10s. You can safely give up on that minion taking CC, even in a MM-centric build, having higher, more reliable healing paired with instant condition cleansing.

CC is so good in any situation, even in the ones it is supposed to be less effective compared to the other skills.

Rhogall.4179:

Nope, Guardians are. When’s the last time you heard someone say “Get a necro so we can survive on maw in 40+ fractals”? Right, never.

It means nothing. Toughest doesn’t mean best support. Those are different things.
A Necromancer can be easily the last man standing in a dungeon run (which is what a tough profession should do), but it won’t be that useful to the team once everyone else are dead. That’s why none ask for Necromancers.

Rhogall.4179:

He proved nothing. You are taking things out of context ( also ignoring what other people are proposing, namely, buffing the other heals ). Consume Conditions is fine. The only thing I may agree in is to slightly nerf the healing coefficient from healing power ( which someone else already proposed, but you decided to ignore it ), and even that is a stretch.

Really?
Please, quote me a post in which spoj has proposed and explained a change to any skill.
Most of the people here are saying only “CC is fine, buff other heals”.
Read the topic and you’ll se that not so many people here have a constructive attitude. I’m not ignoring the suggestions of other people, I’m just overwhelmed by a lot of trash posts of people not contributing at all to the topic but they only don’t want their favourite heal to be touched at all.

sorrow.2364:

None here has proposed a real change to WoB or BF. Everyone have just said “don’t nerf CC, buff WoB and BF instead”, which really doesn’t help to the issue if you don’t give a real alternative to what I’ve suggested.

What are you talking about? Almost everyone has proposed changes to make BF and WoB more viable. We’re positively drowning in alternative suggestions. But here,since you’ve apparently forgotten everything else in this thread:

BF: Like all minion skills, it needs some resistance to splash damage so it doesn’t die instantly (though that’s more an issue with minions in general) and the spike heal from sacrificing it should probably be a little bit bigger. Also, the UI should include an indicator of the BF’s health bar so you can reasonably know when’s a good time to sacrifice it.

WoB: Needs a slightly lower base cooldown and slightly higher base healing from the field so that it has strictly better heal/time than CC if you can stay in the field. Or conversely, allowing Necros to heal while in Deathshroud somehow could make this a lot better without much in the way of changes.

In both cases, these two heals are still going to be niche because that’s just how they’re designed, but they should be markedly better in their niches than CC.

sorrow.2364:

Said that, Necromancer isn’t a good healing support profession.

I’m not so sure that’s true. I haven’t tried Nemesis’ healing support necro build, but it looks pretty interesting.

Blaine Tog.8304:

What are you talking about? Almost everyone has proposed changes to make BF and WoB more viable. We’re positively drowning in alternative suggestions.

Please, count how many people just said “CC is fine, don’t nerf it” and how many have proposed real solutions to the issue. You’ll be surprised.

sorrow.2364:

Blaine Tog.8304:

What are you talking about? Almost everyone has proposed changes to make BF and WoB more viable. We’re positively drowning in alternative suggestions.

Please, count how many people just said “CC is fine, don’t nerf it” and how many have proposed real solutions to the issue. You’ll be surprised.

You said “None here has proposed a real change to WoB or BF.” Even if a lot of people have just said to nerf CC, a lot of them have proposed changes to WoB and BF as well. The statement of yours to which I was responding was therefore patently false. Here’s a post from the first page of the thread:

RashanDale.3609:

no, it’s not OP, it’s fine. if the conditional healing is removed, it would be too weak.
instead of overnerfing it, the other heals should rather get buffed.

Well of Blood’s cooldown is a bit high. and its combo-field could be changed to water.
a cleansed condition every 3 seconds might help, but then it maybe becomes too similar to CC.

Blood fiend’s second skill should be instant. but even with that i guess i still wouldnt pick it because minion.

edit: Lumm, i guess every nec would like to have that to some degree, but the last SotG showed that Anet is still too scared of it.

There, a few suggestions for you.

Theres no point us all suggesting the same changes over and over. The general point we are trying to drill into your dense head is that a nerf on CC isnt needed. Seeing as you want suggestions ill just repeat a few that people keep mentioning… BF is a minion so make it more survivable or automaticly give the heal when its killed. WoB could have higher base heal or just a lower cooldown or even some condi cleanse (per pulse or make it a water field). Happy?…..

spoj.9672:

Theres no point us all suggesting the same changes over and over. The general point we are trying to drill into your dense head is that a nerf on CC isnt needed. Seeing as you want suggestions ill just repeat a few that people keep mentioning… BF is a minion so make it more survivable or automaticly give the heal when its killed. WoB could have higher base heal or just a lower cooldown or even some condi cleanse (per pulse or make it a water field). Happy?…..

I would have been more happy if you wrote this 3 pages ago.

Blaine Tog.8304:

sorrow.2364:

Blaine Tog.8304:

What are you talking about? Almost everyone has proposed changes to make BF and WoB more viable. We’re positively drowning in alternative suggestions.

Please, count how many people just said “CC is fine, don’t nerf it” and how many have proposed real solutions to the issue. You’ll be surprised.

You said “None here has proposed a real change to WoB or BF.” Even if a lot of people have just said to nerf CC, a lot of them have proposed changes to WoB and BF as well. The statement of yours to which I was responding was therefore patently false.

It was an exaggeration, of course.
But it is hard to deny that most people here didn’t came with a constructive attitude.
You said “almost everyone has proposed changes”. I can count how many people have proposed changes and how many have just came here to say “don’t nerf CC” and you’ll see that you’re wrong as I am.

Cant believe this troll thread has been going on for 5 pages lol.

sorrow.2364:

Blaine Tog.8304:

sorrow.2364:

Blaine Tog.8304:

What are you talking about? Almost everyone has proposed changes to make BF and WoB more viable. We’re positively drowning in alternative suggestions.

Please, count how many people just said “CC is fine, don’t nerf it” and how many have proposed real solutions to the issue. You’ll be surprised.

You said “None here has proposed a real change to WoB or BF.” Even if a lot of people have just said to nerf CC, a lot of them have proposed changes to WoB and BF as well. The statement of yours to which I was responding was therefore patently false.

It was an exaggeration, of course.
But it is hard to deny that most people here didn’t came with a constructive attitude.
You said “almost everyone has proposed changes”. I can count how many people have proposed changes and how many have just came here to say “don’t nerf CC” and you’ll see that you’re wrong as I am.

I was being a bit imprecise: almost everyone who’s posted repeatedly has offered suggestions about how to buff WoB or BF. That little bit of imprecision is nothing compared to the heavyhanded dismissal of all the suggestions that have heretofore been offered.

Furthermore, arguing that the heals are balanced can be a perfectly reasonable. It’s a different point of view, one that could potentially be correct, and it deserves to be heard and heard well. It’s disingenuous to label everyone who don’t think there’s anything wrong as “not constructive.”

Blaine Tog.8304:

It’s disingenuous to label everyone who don’t think there’s anything wrong as “not constructive.”

I did not labeled as “not constructive” people who said everything is fine.
I’ve labeled as “not constructive” people who said everything is fine without explaining why.
And I don’t usually consider as “explanation” just “WoB and BF are strong”.
Spoj is a good example. He has contributed nothing to the discussion until I explicitly asked to. He didn’t even contributed in a good manner.

You can find even more people in this topic who has done the same thing as Spoj.

When statistically most entities have a specific attribute in common, people tend to generalize.
It is obviously incorrect to say that oriental people are rice-eater, but would you care that much if someone says that? Is that statement so blatantly false that has to been pointed out?

Haha wow……..

This is a troll thread.

Here are suggestions for all the heals.

1. Keep CC as is
2. You can sacrifice BF for heal (as it is now). If BF is killed, it heals for 1.25-1.5 times the sacrifice heal
3. Reduce cooldown on WoB