Metabattle: celestial signet is meta?

Metabattle: celestial signet is meta?

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Posted by: manveruppd.7601

manveruppd.7601

It’s a “celebrity effect”. The champions are using that build, so all the me-too leetkiddies decide that if they just imitate them they’ll automatically get good themselves.

I’ve been using that build about 60% of the time in pvp since 23/6 (the rest of the time I was trying out different variations of condition builds to see if I could still make it work, and a bit of mucking about with minions), and I admit that it’s the best necromancer build available right now. It’s definitely viable (even at high level, as Abjured have shown), but it’s certainly not what I’d call optimal (or “meta” as the kids are calling it these days).

The reason I don’t think it’s optimal is because of the role it fills in your team. As someone using celestial amulet, the role you need to play is definitely that of a bunkery brawler. You’re not expected to hold 2v1 for days, but you definitely need to survive long enough to get reinforced. You’re not expected to deliver the same kind of bursty punishment as a zerker thief, but you need to pack a solid enough punch to help the thief down an enemy holding a point fast enough that THEY don’t get reinforced.

Here’s why I think celestial necro is suboptimal for that role: in terms of survivability, if you have full DS and Plague off cooldown, you can actually stand on a point longer than even an elementalist. If you have neither of these conditions, you go down almost as fast as someone in zerker gear. Moreover, an elementalist may be squishier, but they have multiple defensive skills, all on staggered cooldowns, and much better healing-over-time than the necro. An elementalist holding 2v1 can run off the point, go behind a pillar, heal, then jump on the point again, and repeat that a few seconds later. The necromancer, while being able to stay on the point longer, only has active heals (except for SoV’s passive effect, which is small), and two of them rely on lifestealing at short range. You can’t duck in and out of a fight, coming back at nearly full health, keeping the enemy busy without them being able to down you for as long as an ele can. Water attumenent comes off cooldown much faster than an empty life force bar can be refilled, is my main point! And if you decide that a point is lost and you’re better off helping elsewhere, you can’t just use a Burning Speed to zoom away from the fight (while evading!), getting away safely even at low health the way an elementalist can. If a necro commits to a fight they’ll either win or they’ll die there.

Ditto in terms of damage: while a celestial necro can inflict much higher sustained damage than an elementalist, they need DS off cooldown, a bunch of might stacks, and life force>50% to do that. Between Reaper’s Might and Signets of Suffering, you’re gonna build up some serious might if the fight goes on awhile, but before that your damage will be mediocre. By contrast, an elementalist’s sustained damage is lower, but they have a lot of high damage skills with staggered cooldowns, letting a good elementalist choose between pressuring you hard enough to force you to retreat, or saving some cooldowns for when you’re just low enough that they can checkmate you.

So if you’re comparing 1v1 on who to include in your team, celestial necro or celestial ele, ele wins hands down: they can fulfil that role much better. However, there’s one thing that makes the signet necro relevant, and why it’s still a decent include in most teams in spite of this: all those boon corruptions you can do make you the only thing that can make a d/d elementalist sweat a little! Cele necro is one of the few things that can sit 1v1 on a point against an ele for a significant amount of time. It’s one of the few builds that can even kill an ele 1v1, although a good ele will stay alive so long that either you or they will get reinforced. With elementalists being the strongest class right now, and one of the most popular in pvp, this means that a cele necro will always have a decent matchup against nearly all enemy teams. You might be a suboptimal matchup against nearly every other class in the game, but against an ele, you’re, well, ok, they’re not exactly quaking in their boots, but you counter them better than anyone else does (to the extent where anything as overpowered as today’s d/d ele can be “countered”). You’re not exactly the ele’s natural predator, more like that prey that’s really annoying for them to kill. You’re not a fox to their sheep: they’re the fox to your hedgehog.

So until ele gets nerfed, cele necro will find a place on pvp teams as a situational meta choice. When that happens, I expect people will realise that it’s not really the optimal class to feel that bunkery brawler role that celestial signet fills, and go back to using other things.

A bad necromancer always blames the corpse.

Metabattle: celestial signet is meta?

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Posted by: nearlight.3064

nearlight.3064

@manveruppd, what do you think necros will run when ele gets nerfed? Also I heard from a popular streamer that the ele balance dev is on vacation right now so thats why it hasn’t been nerfed yet… but I guess it will be soon since vacations can’t last forever.

Necromancer Main
Taking a break from GW2 to play various
Nintendo games..

Metabattle: celestial signet is meta?

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

@manveruppd, what do you think necros will run when ele gets nerfed? Also I heard from a popular streamer that the ele balance dev is on vacation right now so thats why it hasn’t been nerfed yet… but I guess it will be soon since vacations can’t last forever.

They’ve been on vacation for two years? Man I want to work at ANet.

But of Corpse – Watch us on YouTube
My PvP Minion Build

Metabattle: celestial signet is meta?

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Posted by: nearlight.3064

nearlight.3064

@manveruppd, what do you think necros will run when ele gets nerfed? Also I heard from a popular streamer that the ele balance dev is on vacation right now so thats why it hasn’t been nerfed yet… but I guess it will be soon since vacations can’t last forever.

They’ve been on vacation for two years? Man I want to work at ANet.

Hahaha yeah it sounds like a great job in all seriousness, but being a game designer is probably difficult when you get to crunch time before a release.

Anyway it was a streamer that talked to tons of devs intimatedly at the WTS, so yeah its just a rumour of a neverending vacation, but hopefully for the game’s sake it ends soon.

Necromancer Main
Taking a break from GW2 to play various
Nintendo games..

Metabattle: celestial signet is meta?

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Posted by: Sagat.3285

Sagat.3285

@manveruppd, what do you think necros will run when ele gets nerfed? Also I heard from a popular streamer that the ele balance dev is on vacation right now so thats why it hasn’t been nerfed yet… but I guess it will be soon since vacations can’t last forever.

There is always boon to corrupt,conditions to transfer,traditional specs etc hopefully LB rangers don’t become meta no hate to rangers though.

“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
The Dhuumfire thread

Metabattle: celestial signet is meta?

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Posted by: nearlight.3064

nearlight.3064

I don’t think we have to worry about rangers being meta unless D/D ele gets nerfed back into 2013 and Spirit ranger gets restored back to its 2013 state :P

Necromancer Main
Taking a break from GW2 to play various
Nintendo games..

Metabattle: celestial signet is meta?

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Posted by: manveruppd.7601

manveruppd.7601

@manveruppd, what do you think necros will run when ele gets nerfed? Also I heard from a popular streamer that the ele balance dev is on vacation right now so thats why it hasn’t been nerfed yet… but I guess it will be soon since vacations can’t last forever.

Well the people who jumped on the necro bandwagon will go back to playing whatever else is overpowered. As for the people who main necro and want to play necro regardless… well, it depends on how the ele nerfs happen (IF they happen). If they nerf ele directly, without touching celestial signet’s stats, the signet necro will probably still be around. But if they also take stats off celestial it might leave signet necro too weak to be worth it, depending on how much they shave off. I guess soldier’s amulet minionmancer would be the next most viable thing in this meta, it’s got no sustain to speak of because anyone with aoe can literally KILL YOUR HEALING SKILL (lol), but a lot of up-front durability since you’re basically at 60k HP with a full shroud. I don’t see zerker shroudmancer making a comeback since the nerfs to air/fire sigils 2 weeks ago – I can’t get those delicious 5k crits anymore. And terrormancer is really bad atm, even against mesmers who have zero cleansing.

A bad necromancer always blames the corpse.

Metabattle: celestial signet is meta?

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Posted by: Rym.1469

Rym.1469

@manveruppd, what do you think necros will run when ele gets nerfed? Also I heard from a popular streamer that the ele balance dev is on vacation right now so thats why it hasn’t been nerfed yet… but I guess it will be soon since vacations can’t last forever.

They’ve been on vacation for two years? Man I want to work at ANet.

Side note – I wouldn’t bury Blood Magic Necros. Some traits, like Life from Death, are being incredibly underestimated or considered only with MMancers, while other builds can make great use of these.

Attachments:

[rude]Antagonistka – Revenant, EU.
[SALT]Natchniony – Necromancer, EU.
Streams: http://www.twitch.tv/rym144

(edited by Rym.1469)

Metabattle: celestial signet is meta?

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Posted by: Rym.1469

Rym.1469

@manveruppd, what do you think necros will run when ele gets nerfed? Also I heard from a popular streamer that the ele balance dev is on vacation right now so thats why it hasn’t been nerfed yet… but I guess it will be soon since vacations can’t last forever.

If they nerf Ele’s AoE Condition removal, we could see some movements from Old Ones, buried deep beneath the tidal waves of Cleansing Water and meta. Rumours of sunken skills rising from the depths.

Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Epidemic M’eta wgah’nagl fhtagn!

..or just more bunker gaurds…

Attachments:

[rude]Antagonistka – Revenant, EU.
[SALT]Natchniony – Necromancer, EU.
Streams: http://www.twitch.tv/rym144

Metabattle: celestial signet is meta?

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Posted by: Totbot.4583

Totbot.4583

I think a lot of the arguing in this thread comes down to people not understanding “meta”.

Cele Necro is “meta” because its the strongest build when you’re on a good team fighting against another good team. Its strong against the other strong builds and doesn’t rely on people standing in your wells or not dodging/blinding your Death Shroud damage. Power Necro gets better then worse your opponent gets. Cele Signet gets better the better your opponent gets.

That being said, I win more in unranked with my homebrewed power Necro build than I do with Cele Signet or the traditional power builds. My power build is a little tankier and, in all honestly, depends on the enemy not being the best. And in most unranked games, that’s actually a pretty safe bet. You’re not fighting great players or organized teams in most games. And when you do play against an organized team, it doesn’t matter what your build is because even the best player in the world will lose a game if his teammates suck.

So yes, is you’re doing better with your build than you do with Cele Signet that’s probably why. If you’re doing well with your build, keep playing it. That’s my plan. But when talking about the Meta, please understand that the Meta is talking about good organized teams fighting other good organized teams.

Metabattle: celestial signet is meta?

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

Side note – I wouldn’t bury Blood Magic Necros. Some traits, like Life from Death, are being incredibly underestimated or considered only with MMancers, while other builds can make great use of these.

While I agree clerics support Necro really makes amazing use of the blood traits, the problem with our support builds is we still have no weapon based support. Every other profession who has strong support builds brings either weapon-based support and/or heavy weapon based CC. We have neither.

But of Corpse – Watch us on YouTube
My PvP Minion Build

Metabattle: celestial signet is meta?

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Posted by: Rym.1469

Rym.1469

Side note – I wouldn’t bury Blood Magic Necros. Some traits, like Life from Death, are being incredibly underestimated or considered only with MMancers, while other builds can make great use of these.

While I agree clerics support Necro really makes amazing use of the blood traits, the problem with our support builds is we still have no weapon based support. Every other profession who has strong support builds brings either weapon-based support and/or heavy weapon based CC. We have neither.

That’s indeed a problem I faced myself.

Honestly, I wouldn’t mind if Axe was reworked to be support-oriented MH weapon we need.

[rude]Antagonistka – Revenant, EU.
[SALT]Natchniony – Necromancer, EU.
Streams: http://www.twitch.tv/rym144

Metabattle: celestial signet is meta?

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Posted by: nearlight.3064

nearlight.3064

@manveruppd, what do you think necros will run when ele gets nerfed? Also I heard from a popular streamer that the ele balance dev is on vacation right now so thats why it hasn’t been nerfed yet… but I guess it will be soon since vacations can’t last forever.

They’ve been on vacation for two years? Man I want to work at ANet.

Side note – I wouldn’t bury Blood Magic Necros. Some traits, like Life from Death, are being incredibly underestimated or considered only with MMancers, while other builds can make great use of these.

Yeah, I’ve been trying soldier’s blood magic with signets and its been doing pretty well in teamfights, but can’t 1v1 very well compared to celestial.

Necromancer Main
Taking a break from GW2 to play various
Nintendo games..