Guild Wars 2

Bhawb.7408:

This heavily depends on build. A bunker Warrior will do the same damage as a glass one, a bunker ele will be the same, and this is relatively true in many other cases as well, because they equip similar weapons.

Like I said, the only profession where the damage would be the same would be rabid and cele engi (and then only with kits, not their main weapons). Every other profession takes different weapons depending on amulet. Zerker warriors use GS, don’t they? That’s a burstier weapon with very high power scalings (Hundred Blades is over x4!). Hammer, longbow, and even sword don’t come anywhere near that. Cleric eles use staff, not d/d, whose skills have lower scalings to make up for its larger aoes. Bunker guardians use mace/shield/staff, zerkers use scepter or sword and either hammer or GS, again, much better-scaling weapons.

Trust me man, if you make minions immune to crits, whether by a trait or baseline, MMs will become the new turret engis: everyone will hate them, and deservedly so, but, unlike turret engis, whom you can just cede the point to and go fight elsewhere, a MM will follow you around with swiftness and beat you up at your home point too!

Flesh of the Master isn’t compulsory to run a minion. Flesh Golem, Flesh Wurm, and Bone Minions in general can be used without HP traiting in a normal build without issue. If they die they die, its not such a big deal to a normal build, and they are used for their utility. Shadow Fiend and Bone Fiend with the proposed changes would also be worth using in normal builds. Also we are proposing a 20% HP boost without traiting.

I’m with you on a baseline HP boost, and if that happens then yes, Flesh of the Master wouldn’t be compulsory. But as they are, the melee minions really aren’t durable enough without the trait right now(with the exception of Golem). Especially Bone Minions who only have 5k HP, and who REALLY have to get close to the enemy to be useful! They have a short recharge so it’s not a huge disaster if they die, but that basically puts one of your utilities on a 10" recharge before the fight even starts and it sucks.

hitting 5 targets with heavy amounts of retaliation will absolutely hammer you with damage, and many builds rely on AoE attacks, even to hit a single target.

It’s not that bad. I don’t know how much power the minions have, but, assuming it’s about 1500, retaliation damage would be 300ish per hit or so? Assume you had 5 minions, 1 dies, gives the rest retaliation, 4×300=1200 per hit assuming you hit ALL of them (unlikely since one will be Wurm). You’d have to hit them a lot of times to really hurt yourself, and considering that, in the version of the trait I proposed, one has to get killed to proc it, the rest are probably going to be pretty low too. So realistically they’re not gonna take more than 2-3 hits more MAX before they die, so it’ll hurt but there’s no way you’ll kill yourself even if you’re complete glass! Unless you hit them with one of those skills that does a million little tiny hits, like guardian’s Smite, in which case you’re kind of an idiot and maybe you’ve earned it. :p

If it was tied to something the MM had to intelligently activate and time (like, watch the DPS guard come in, activate AoE retal, laugh while guard spams AoE like an idiot) I’d be fine with it.

Yeah I could go for that too, maybe on activation of a specific skill or something.

My issue is more them just getting a bunch of random buffs from dying. Death Nova already covers the punishing of killing well on its own, and it has a lot of play with the rest of the kit.

Well, I love the trait, but I don’t think it covers it. A glass ele or a longbow warrior can kill them well before they’re close enough for death nova to hit him. And if they lower their autoattack damage like I think we all agree on, hitting with death nova becomes more important.

Plus, like you and Sikari said, dying cause you ate too many death novas is kinda toxic – annoying to the enemy, and doesn’t need much skill from the MM’s part. At least with retal the damage isn’t delivered in huge chunks so you can stop attacking till it expires, so there’s some counterplay. I’m not suggesting anything that’ll replace death nova, just a replacement for Flesh of the Master that, instead of trying to prolong a minion’s pathetic, miserable life, gives you some benefit from its death.

I guess specific CDs could be argued in some cases, because this would only really affect Shadow Fiend/Bone Fiend/Flesh Golem, the other minions have actives that are tied to their death and couldn’t be lowered. But for those three, yeah I think you might have a point to lowering CDs.

That’s all I’m suggesting too, clearly lowering the cd on bone minions and ol’ Bloodie would make them OP! I think a case could be made for Flesh Wurm too though.

Actually yes, I would, if we had any decent fields to combo them with. On non-MM builds it isn’t at all a big deal to leave them unsummoned when not needed and summon them specifically to combo with a field/deal burst damage.

Well, uh, there’s a 3" poison field on Chilblains? :p
Seriously man, how about a little wager? If you run bone minions without Flesh of the Master and win 2 out of 5 games (screenshot proof accepted), I’ll run bone minions instead of Spectral Walk for two weeks thereafter ON MY CONDITIONMANCER!

Also, just read your sig Bhawb, it gave me a laugh!

manveruppd.7601:

Seriously man, how about a little wager? If you run bone minions without Flesh of the Master and win 2 out of 5 games (screenshot proof accepted), I’ll run bone minions instead of Spectral Walk for two weeks thereafter ON MY CONDITIONMANCER!

I bet I could come up with some cheese build that used WoS and Bone Minions to do some funny stuff, especially since Bone Minions are unscaling.

In fact I’d probably argue Death Nova is actually so good that if I was already 4 into DM that its worth dumping 2 more traits in just for Death Nova’d Bone Minions. I might try that sometime with a tankier build setup.

Don’t take that bet, Bhawb~ remember, putrid explosion blast still has a 3 second delay.

I’m pretty sure the blast happens at the right time, but the combo message is delayed.

It doesn’t, I’ve checked.

And I’m not playing good enough people for the blast to matter. I’ve respawned and seen poison ticks from across the map due to death nova.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I’m pretty sure the blast happens at the right time, but the combo message is delayed.

Oh believe me, I’ve played enough MM to know that blast is 3 seconds late. Its the reason PE basically never applies Weakness. It was to the point I almost forgot it even could… If you watch the animation, you even see the 3 second late blast, but you can test it, its full effect is just as late as the message.

An active skill might be the best approach. It could be a new profession mechanic skill (F2). There are a few ways such a skill could work.

The basic functionality of the skill could do any of: heal or regen minions, give protection to minions, give resistance to minions.

It would cost a significant (50% – 100%) portion of life force. It could heal as a percentage of the the amount of life force consumed. Durations could also be affected by amount of life force consumed. Durations would be very short.

If there are no active minions, it could be disabled. Alternatively, it could affect the necro too. It could be another way to counter burst, costing life force.

Another way to implement this new skill would be as an alternative way of leaving death shroud. While in death shroud, pressing F2 would consume remaining life force and function as described above, applying any of: prot/resist/regen boons and heals. The durations would still be affected by the amount of life force consumed. It would function similarly to the trait that triggers on leaving death shroud. Both could even stack in this case.

The goal of this brainstorm is to bring a skill like Blood of the Master to GW2. More sacrifice would likely be necessary, possibly requiring death shroud to go on a small cool down. Unfortunately, there is no precedent for health sacrifice in GW2.

I’m not worried about details like heal amounts or boon durations. I hope this could be explored further. To be honest, I haven’t been able to play GW2 for a while. Would the life force cost be a sufficient sacrifice? Would an extended cool down be needed for death shroud? Could self-applied chill be an appropriate sacrifice? Note the possibility of getting resistance from the skill.

A new profession mechanic skill could better connect minions with the necro profession mechanic.

*Edit: tried to organize it better.

Bhawb.7408:

I bet I could come up with some cheese build that used WoS and Bone Minions to do some funny stuff, especially since Bone Minions are unscaling.

In fact I’d probably argue Death Nova is actually so good that if I was already 4 into DM that its worth dumping 2 more traits in just for Death Nova’d Bone Minions. I might try that sometime with a tankier build setup.

Well the challenge was to take Bone Minions without Flesh of the Master, so you don’t HAVE to go 4 into death, you can run whatever you want! You could run CPC with Bone Minions I guess, though the recharge on that thing is ludicrous, and it already applies weakness on its own… WoS though? I don’t much like dark fields, blind is a marginal condition. Time to bump the “make well of blood a water field” thread maybe? :p

Speaking of the putrid blast delay, has anyone considered that it might be a stealth nerf to make it never combo with Death Nova? Its poison field is 3" long too, isn’kitten Or am I being paranoid?

@Scynte Yeah, integrating minion manipulation skills into the profession mechanic somehow would be a great way to go, but that means completely redesigning the profession, which I doubt they’ll do…

Why is “isn’t it” being caught by the swearie filter?

because of the last three letters in the word grouping.

It didn’t catch it in my next post though! And I went back and checked that there was a space in my previous one. Weird!

Yeah , those things really need fixing…but they have for ages. And i doubt something will happen to make MM better soon, because my guess is that minions are what the Necro-Spec will actually lose…Because , if the GS will be a melee weapon, Minions have by far the worst synergy with it. Spectral gives a “GET OVER HERE”, life force when you get smashed in the face, mobility and a “get off me” + protection skill, nontraited wells are dropped where you stand favouring melee, and signets are passive bonuses with an active which help both ranged and melee. And, well, minions help out ranged specs mostly (if they are brought at all due to the issues).

Shiki.7148:

Yeah , those things really need fixing…but they have for ages. And i doubt something will happen to make MM better soon, because my guess is that minions are what the Necro-Spec will actually lose…Because , if the GS will be a melee weapon, Minions have by far the worst synergy with it. Spectral gives a “GET OVER HERE”, life force when you get smashed in the face, mobility and a “get off me” + protection skill, nontraited wells are dropped where you stand favouring melee, and signets are passive bonuses with an active which help both ranged and melee. And, well, minions help out ranged specs mostly (if they are brought at all due to the issues).

I play Dagger/Warhorn (staff) Soldiers MM. Its actually my favorite. I have hopes for the GS! But alas… You never know. I’d assume Curses would be the line to change for more power-oriented traits.

Greatsword has a lot of potential. Ranged isn’t that important on MM, so long as the weapon works well, and greatsword boasts heavy chill uptime, one of the single best MM conditions ever. Also very unlikely to lose minions because we’re based on Marj and she summons plenty still.

manveruppd.7601:

WoS though? I don’t much like dark fields, blind is a marginal condition. Time to bump the “make well of blood a water field” thread maybe? :p

Less about the blast finishers, more about WoS dealing thousands of damage on top of another 3-4k from Putrid Explosion.

manveruppd.7601:

Speaking of the putrid blast delay, has anyone considered that it might be a stealth nerf to make it never combo with Death Nova? Its poison field is 3" long too, isn’kitten Or am I being paranoid?

It always combos with death nova, so its probably just a bug.

Scynte.1340:

snip

Its not a necessarily bad idea, but it won’t happen unless we see a minion specialization or if it is trait based. I’d also argue that Death Shroud is really important to playing MM, because it allows you to stall when minions are down or minion actives are on CD.

Yeah, it combos with it. It just does it so late that it essentially never hits. Except for rare occasions someone thinks its fine to sit in a poison field for ever without ever evading. Its just rare that that’s the case.

Bhawb.7408:

Greatsword has a lot of potential. Ranged isn’t that important on MM, so long as the weapon works well, and greatsword boasts heavy chill uptime, one of the single best MM conditions ever. Also very unlikely to lose minions because we’re based on Marj and she summons plenty still.

manveruppd.7601:

WoS though? I don’t much like dark fields, blind is a marginal condition. Time to bump the “make well of blood a water field” thread maybe? :p

Less about the blast finishers, more about WoS dealing thousands of damage on top of another 3-4k from Putrid Explosion.

manveruppd.7601:

Speaking of the putrid blast delay, has anyone considered that it might be a stealth nerf to make it never combo with Death Nova? Its poison field is 3" long too, isn’kitten Or am I being paranoid?

It always combos with death nova, so its probably just a bug.

Scynte.1340:

snip

Its not a necessarily bad idea, but it won’t happen unless we see a minion specialization or if it is trait based. I’d also argue that Death Shroud is really important to playing MM, because it allows you to stall when minions are down or minion actives are on CD.

Problem is, losing any other option would hurt so much more than minions. Minions are slow with their activation skills, like to blatantly ignore enemies, kitten up their pathing or have other broken issues.

Let’s say we lose our wells. That would HURT like a motherkittener. Especially with a melee-based weapon. Imagine we lost signets. Oh, sure it wouldn’t hurt for the most signets, but we’d lose Signet of Spite, and that 180 powerboost comes in handy a lot. Spectral skills are also wonderful to have when in melee… To draw an enemy ranged character to you, speed yourself up with the option to blink back or gain something if you get hit (which you will in melee more than ranged) is really nice. Actually… I just thought about another possibility. We might lose corruption skills. Losing blood is power would HURT, though. Using CPC, Corrupt Boon and Epidemic, not so much (under the pretense GS will be better for PvE than PvP). Condition manipulation would be “out of character” for a poweruser.

Or maybe, we won’T lose a complete “set” for a set, but, let’s say, all utilities that deal with condition manipulation. Signet of Plague, epidemic, corrupt boon and one more, maybe well of darkness or well of power (both nice on a melee though, and well of power is onbe of the rare stunbreaks…)

All our utility sets have one-two really important skills. WoS for burst, SA for defense (SWalk could be argued), Flesh Wurm for teleport (Flesh Golem if you can’t use the other elites), SoS for power&condi burst, CB for spike boon removal (Epidemic could be argued).

The rest are pretty replaceable or niche, and the removal of any single setup will hurt someone just as much as the removal of any other would hurt someone else.

Does it combo? Don’t think I ever noticed weakness on my targets when using Putrid. I haven’t used minions in months though, so don’t take my word for it. I won’t be able to play till Sunday probably, so if anyone logs in later blow up a bone minion near a golem while waiting for a match for me please? :p
Also, does it combo instantly, or with the 3" delay? Just noticed I was wrong about Death Nova’s poison field being 3", wiki says it’s 4 so it would still combo with the delay.

Bhawb.7408:

All our utility sets have one-two really important skills. WoS for burst, SA for defense (SWalk could be argued), Flesh Wurm for teleport (Flesh Golem if you can’t use the other elites), SoS for power&condi burst, CB for spike boon removal (Epidemic could be argued).

The rest are pretty replaceable or niche, and the removal of any single setup will hurt someone just as much as the removal of any other would hurt someone else.

When is Flesh Wurm ever usefull in a combat scenario? Since you need to summon it then use it again to TP to it , it just takes too long and you’ll get CC’d before you can use it. And if you set up the Flesh Wurm in advance it is extremely likely to die in an AE-Field before you can even TP to it. Or, alternatively, you’ll tp right into the AE field. It is just way too telegraphed in a PvP-Scenario, and as there is no way to reposition the Wurm it also is bad in PvE too (except if you want to use it to skip something, so OOC). As for the Golem, well, its an elite so if “only” the utility summons would be taken away it could stay. But Blood Fiend can go GTFO for all i care since it likes to ignore enemies, the lifedrain is laughable, the sacrifice telegraphed and the blood fiend itself about as durable as a house made of playing cards on top of a speedboat.

manveruppd.7601:

Does it combo? Don’t think I ever noticed weakness on my targets when using Putrid. I haven’t used minions in months though, so don’t take my word for it. I won’t be able to play till Sunday probably, so if anyone logs in later blow up a bone minion near a golem while waiting for a match for me please? :p
Also, does it combo instantly, or with the 3" delay? Just noticed I was wrong about Death Nova’s poison field being 3", wiki says it’s 4 so it would still combo with the delay.

Putrid Explosion will self combo with Death Nova 100% of the time, however it is delayed by 3 seconds.

Shiki.7148:

When is Flesh Wurm ever usefull in a combat scenario? Since you need to summon it then use it again to TP to it , it just takes too long and you’ll get CC’d before you can use it. And if you set up the Flesh Wurm in advance it is extremely likely to die in an AE-Field before you can even TP to it. Or, alternatively, you’ll tp right into the AE field. It is just way too telegraphed in a PvP-Scenario, and as there is no way to reposition the Wurm it also is bad in PvE too (except if you want to use it to skip something, so OOC). As for the Golem, well, its an elite so if “only” the utility summons would be taken away it could stay.

Flesh Wurm has been used for a long time in the highest tiers of PvP. You can place it far away from the fight and it allows you to create z-axis separation from your opponent that cannot be followed without them also using a shadowstep. It is one of the best skills for both mobility and distance creation that we have, and there is no substitute for its use.

Here you go fellers. Proof and whatnot about the putrid explosion delay. You never see it apply weakness because almost never does someone sit in the field a full 3 seconds to be in there at that exact point that it explodes. I’ve tested it before. If you’re moving toward the pet and it is exploded, a single evade roll or walking through at a constant non-slowed speed you can walk right through it and still not get hit by the blast finisher.

Bhawb.7408:

Putrid Explosion will self combo with Death Nova 100% of the time, however it is delayed by 3 seconds.

Cool, thanks, that’s what I was asking.

Flesh Wurm has been used for a long time in the highest tiers of PvP. You can place it far away from the fight and it allows you to create z-axis separation from your opponent that cannot be followed without them also using a shadowstep. It is one of the best skills for both mobility and distance creation that we have, and there is no substitute for its use.

I think he meant actually in combat, as opposed to placing it just outside the fight so you can use it to escape if you get into trouble.