Necro buffs for diversity, not power creep

Necro buffs for diversity, not power creep

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Posted by: Stalefish.7615

Stalefish.7615

Yo, was thinking about what changes id like to see the most to bring on some more diversity to the necro/reaper. I do not wish to ask for a bunch of buffs in order to make the strongest reaper build stronger, but rather bringing in more builds to meta possibility. Especially making old shroud better! (I care nothing for WvW or PvE, this is for sPvP)

First of I kinda want Chill trait out of reaper tree and put somewhere else. I would much prefer if old shroud was stronger for condi builds, and reaper to be more for the power build. Also to balance things out perhaps change the trait to “cause dmg instead of slower skill regen” or something so leaving chill as it is would be better for power builds!

Buff too old shroud:

Dark Path: Make this an instant teleport and remove the hand. That would be so much fun and so awesome and a millian times for useful of a skill that is now unreliable which is never good.

Tainted shackles: Any condition applied to you is transfered to tethered enemy instead. This would make old shourd again the condition shroud!

Right now all builds, condi or power must ALWAYS take reaper. I don’t know if that is intended or not but i rather dislike it. If all above is true there would be a reason to go for old shroud whilst leaving reaper still very strong for power or celestial builds!

Instead of the chill trait in reaper which is ideally wish moved, something very powerful powerbuild wise should be added.

These are my initial ideas, hope you guys agree and anet will take a look and consider.
Do you agree with me? Do you also what old shroud to have instant teleport for terror+shill burst? And reaper to be more power specced?

Let me know and happy killing to all reapers out there

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Posted by: Rolisteel.1375

Rolisteel.1375

Id like to see Death Shroud to work good as a ranged damage dealer that can kite good and can keep enemies far away from them. doing some damage on enemies while running or teleport skill away from danger and not just a skill that only teleport to enemy player.. so a working offensive deffensive play. Life Blast casting is also slow for todays meta. “its a punchbag shroud nothing more really.” it’s just useless compared to reaper.

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Posted by: NecroSummonsMors.7816

NecroSummonsMors.7816

I agree with buffs for build diversity and not power creep things.

Reaper

Deathly Chill: I think that maybe moving this trait can lead to a lack of sinergy infact with Reaper line you have pretty much everything about chill (Chilling Nova, Shivers of Dreads, Chilling Victory and Cold Shoulders)

Base Necro

Death Shroud:

Dark Path: I agree with your suggestion, an instant teleport would be so much usefull or something like Death’s Charge of Reaper

Tainted shackles: Clearly it’s an hybrid type of skill, imo there are two ways of improving it
Condi side: More Torment maybe 5 stack instead of 3 with a little duration reduction

Tactical/Power side:
change this
“Bind nearby enemies with your life force, conditioning them repeatedly. If enemies move out of range of this ability, the bind will break. If the bind is allowed to expire, it immobilizes and damages them.”
into this
“Bind nearby enemies with your life force, conditioning them repeatedly. If enemies move out of range of this ability it immobilizes and damages them.”
Of course a nice cooldown reduction will be needed if the dmg remain the same. Imo from a power side this skill need a big up in dmg like 2x but the cooldown remain the same.

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Posted by: Tim.6450

Tim.6450

I think that deathly chill is a bit too thematic and influential too move outside a elite spec. With every specialisation you will have to consider deathly chill as a staple. I also don’t consider this as a pure condition trait, it is more like a trait for hybrid builds.

Making the power/condi division between DS and RS is not preferable, it would make them both a bit stale. Also consider that Reaper is the first specialisation of many. I want death shroud to be more mid range while giving options to both power/condi/melee/ranged builds. With that in mind I suggest the following changes.

Life blast : lower cast and aftercast but same power dps. Inflicts 2~3 second bleed on hit.

Dark Path: Seperate the claw and teleport. The claw inflicts 1~3 stack of 4~5 seconds poison and 3~4 seconds chill. You then can telport to the target instantly and inflict 1~2 second of chill, this option stays 3~5 seconds on the target. Cooldown is reduced to 10 seconds. So if you don’t teleport, you get the claw back after 10 seconds since the cast, otherwhise you get the claw back 10 seconds after the teleport.

Doom: longer fear duration and/or lower cooldown.

Life transfer: Now gives a stack of stability of 2~3 seconds per pulse. Cooldown lowered to 30~35 seconds. Maybe add an extra 1% of lifeforce on hit.

Tainted shackles: Cooldown lowered to 30~35 seconds.

EverythingOP

Necro buffs for diversity, not power creep

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Posted by: Stalefish.7615

Stalefish.7615

Hmm. I did not expect to meet so much resistance of moving the chill trait outside of reaper.. Kinda odd i find that, the thematic part of reaper is chill? Like really hehe i feel you missed the giant death reaper you turn into!

The dmg on chill is the biggest buff in the reaper traitline, and hence perhaps feels like it belongs the most. But to me I still wish that reaper trait line was all about reaper form, not a “must have” trait for any condi build aswell.

But simply put my argument for moving Chill trait is this: As long as chill dmg is as strong as it is now, and remains in reaper tree, Old shroud will not find its way back into pvp. Any power build and any condi build = everybuild for necro will always need reaper. (Until next elite specc atleast but who knows when thatll be?)

So for the sake of diversity, something needs to happen here. My personal taste is still that chill gets slightly nerfed and moved outside reaper and old shroud sees some buffs. The enormity of chill a reaper can put out without the chill dmg should be useful for power dps, to slow and kitten target! Isnt that more in line with the theme of the reaper anyway?

But the big question remains that id love an answer from ANET: Is it intended that specialisation should overpower old traits? Is it intentional that it will inarguably be the best trait line? I mean is it a goal for ANET to bring old shroud on par with reaper to get the diversity? I doesn’t seem like it, and it may not be for balance reasons. I just wish i knew so i don’t hope for something that isnt trying to be achieved

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Consider this: if Deathly Chill were moved outside of Reaper, would “condition Reaper” exist at all? I don’t think so. Dhuumfire alone does not give enough reason to take an entire trait line.

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Necro buffs for diversity, not power creep

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Posted by: Tim.6450

Tim.6450

Consider this: if Deathly Chill were moved outside of Reaper, would “condition Reaper” exist at all? I don’t think so. Dhuumfire alone does not give enough reason to take an entire trait line.

I would think it will depending on which traitline it would drop, if it where to drop in spite or soul reaping, it would be taken especially soul reaping since you can take deathly chill + blighter’s boon). Spite would be a bit inconveniant with the loss of signets of sufferering, but not completely. Blood magic ,death magic and curses are a too much damage loss too work.

I think the better question is: If Deathly Chill were moved outside of Reaper would it make people stop running Reaper? I don’t think so, Deathly chill synergises too much with the reaper shroud and trait line: bitter chill (if spite) + executioner scythe, frost aura, shrivers of dread+ staff+deathly chill, chill + chilling victory, soul spiral,….

Another thing to mention is that people do not run Reaper because of deathly chill, they run reaper because of the Reaper Shroud. Stability, better mobility and faster attacks make reaper a lot more fun too play. It also synergises better with core necromancer traits then Death Shroud. Moving deathly chill will not change this.

What may improve the usage of death shroud in condi and power builds is a better schroud to suit the needs of the necromancer. But more importantly it has to be fun to use in death shroud. The pingpongmancer, the long cooldowns and slow attack speed and low synergy will not make people run Death Shroud no matter what traits are moved. It’s simply more fun to play reaper. You can nerf Reaper but I don’t think it will make people run Death Shroud. They will make people run away from necromancer in total. Reaper did pull players to the necromancer profession , they even leveled necro’s just for that elite spec.

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Necro buffs for diversity, not power creep

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Posted by: Cecilia.5179

Cecilia.5179

Base Necro needs some of the other classes to change, because an innate cc weakness is too much in a meta where some classes can stun us to death.

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Necro buffs for diversity, not power creep

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Posted by: Tadsoul.6951

Tadsoul.6951

We have traits that benefit us for staying in shroud and traits that benefit us for flashing shroud.
shroud flashing builds or play style doesnt really work so i suggest a trait to make them work
Shrouded attunement
while your shroud is recharging 50% of incoming damage is redirect towards your lifeforce.

deathly chill should stay in reaper i think because elite spec should be usable by most but not optimal by all.

dark path I agree should lose the projectile

tainted shackles is good. does it need a buff?…. i like buffs

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Posted by: Tadsoul.6951

Tadsoul.6951

We have traits that benefit us for staying in shroud and traits that benefit us for flashing shroud.
shroud flashing builds or play style doesnt really work so i suggest a trait to make them work
Shrouded attunement
while your shroud is recharging 50% of incoming damage is redirect towards your lifeforce.
this effect ends early if you drop below the lifeforce threshold 30%
deathly chill should stay in reaper i think because elite spec should be usable by most but not optimal by all.

dark path I agree should lose the projectile

tainted shackles is good. does it need a buff?…. i like buffs

(edited by Tadsoul.6951)

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Posted by: Tim.6450

Tim.6450

We have traits that benefit us for staying in shroud and traits that benefit us for flashing shroud.
shroud flashing builds or play style doesnt really work so i suggest a trait to make them work
Shrouded attunement
while your shroud is recharging 50% of incoming damage is redirect towards your lifeforce.

I wonder if a necromancer with this trait will ever be able to enter death shroud? I would prefer a flashing trait that gives us some defense back like :
shrouded resistance: when entering shroud your life force bar can’t decrease for 2 seconds, increase the cooldown off exit shroud skills by 2 seconds.

EverythingOP

Necro buffs for diversity, not power creep

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Posted by: Tadsoul.6951

Tadsoul.6951

I wonder if a necromancer with this trait will ever be able to enter death shroud? I would prefer a flashing trait that gives us some defense back like :
shrouded resistance: when entering shroud your life force bar can’t decrease for 2 seconds, increase the cooldown off exit shroud skills by 2 seconds.

Its only active while shroud is on cooldown not when you aren’t in shroud. You will be able to go back into shroud.
Also i’m going to add this
this effect ends early if you drop below the lifeforce threshold 30%

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Posted by: Cecilia.5179

Cecilia.5179

We have traits that benefit us for staying in shroud and traits that benefit us for flashing shroud.
shroud flashing builds or play style doesnt really work so i suggest a trait to make them work
Shrouded attunement
while your shroud is recharging 50% of incoming damage is redirect towards your lifeforce.

I wonder if a necromancer with this trait will ever be able to enter death shroud? I would prefer a flashing trait that gives us some defense back like :
shrouded resistance: when entering shroud your life force bar can’t decrease for 2 seconds, increase the cooldown off exit shroud skills by 2 seconds.

I think the idea of the trait would be that you’d never stay in shroud for more than just the on entering procs and maybe the fear, but in exchange, you gain a huge resistance to damage while in non shroud form, which is a place where Necros currently lack any defense.

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Necro buffs for diversity, not power creep

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Posted by: Cogbyrn.7283

Cogbyrn.7283

I think I might be the only one who thinks diversity is an overrated and unnecessary concept. I’d take balance any day, and trying to fit a bunch more builds into “viability” for a class, when two classes are considered (whether it’s 100% true, that’s an exercise for the reader) to be garbage in competitive sPvP, seems like a tall and inviable order.

If every class had 1 build that fit in competition, that would be a good start.

Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”

Necro buffs for diversity, not power creep

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Posted by: Cecilia.5179

Cecilia.5179

I think I might be the only one who thinks diversity is an overrated and unnecessary concept. I’d take balance any day, and trying to fit a bunch more builds into “viability” for a class, when two classes are considered (whether it’s 100% true, that’s an exercise for the reader) to be garbage in competitive sPvP, seems like a tall and inviable order.

If every class had 1 build that fit in competition, that would be a good start.

I can see where you’re coming from. It is definitely important for every class to have at least one viable role in each game mode, but it gets really boring when that role can only be filled by a single build that is copy-pasted endlessly.
Take condition Reaper as an example. Most Reapers use Spite/Soul Reaping/Reaper. However, even though Curses is currently inferior in many ways to Spite, running it over Spite can help you surprise foes that expect the copy paste build. Of course, this would be infinitely more true if Curses was strong enough to legitimately compete with Spite. It’s also just more fun in general to see two different kind of condition Reapers that both can demand different gear and playstyle than seeing every condi Reaper running the same spec.

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Necro buffs for diversity, not power creep

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Posted by: Cogbyrn.7283

Cogbyrn.7283

I think I might be the only one who thinks diversity is an overrated and unnecessary concept. I’d take balance any day, and trying to fit a bunch more builds into “viability” for a class, when two classes are considered (whether it’s 100% true, that’s an exercise for the reader) to be garbage in competitive sPvP, seems like a tall and inviable order.

If every class had 1 build that fit in competition, that would be a good start.

I can see where you’re coming from. It is definitely important for every class to have at least one viable role in each game mode, but it gets really boring when that role can only be filled by a single build that is copy-pasted endlessly.
Take condition Reaper as an example. Most Reapers use Spite/Soul Reaping/Reaper. However, even though Curses is currently inferior in many ways to Spite, running it over Spite can help you surprise foes that expect the copy paste build. Of course, this would be infinitely more true if Curses was strong enough to legitimately compete with Spite. It’s also just more fun in general to see two different kind of condition Reapers that both can demand different gear and playstyle than seeing every condi Reaper running the same spec.

That’s my issue with balance attempts these days, and arguments for balance. People want diversity almost solely because of their personal need to change things constantly in order to maintain entertainment. No one seems to get their entertainment from the act of fighting players and how dynamic and interesting that interaction can be. Enemy players are, for most intents and purposes, just unique AI to people. You queue, a bunch of random names/faces show up, you do what you always do against them, the match ends, then you re-queue.

That isn’t PvP to me, and it’s probably why I can’t seem to stick with PvP in MMOs anymore beyond looking for small-scale WvW fights against the same roamers. There’s no familiarity, no evolution in gameplay based on how you know your enemy plays. There’s no player interaction depth, and that is completely separate from the game.

If ANet really wanted to balance this game, they would create templates of classes that you could choose and instate a draft mechanism before games, so teams would draft up comps live in front of other teams. If Team A picks DS Tempest, Team B knows to pick something that can help counter DS appropriately, while Team A needs to anticipate that and make sure their choice bears fruit.

But I digress. I’m on a search for depth, and I really wish GW2 provided it. Even Ranked sounds like a silly MMR slog to some rank no one will care about once the season is over. I want the feeling from the days of dedicated FPS servers. I want the feeling from the days of single-server Battlegrounds in WoW. I want to recognize faces and names, I want the opposition to recognize my face/name, and I want an evolving fight.

I really don’t care one lick about diversity.

Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”

Necro buffs for diversity, not power creep

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

I think I might be the only one who thinks diversity is an overrated and unnecessary concept. I’d take balance any day, and trying to fit a bunch more builds into “viability” for a class, when two classes are considered (whether it’s 100% true, that’s an exercise for the reader) to be garbage in competitive sPvP, seems like a tall and inviable order.

If every class had 1 build that fit in competition, that would be a good start.

I can see where you’re coming from. It is definitely important for every class to have at least one viable role in each game mode, but it gets really boring when that role can only be filled by a single build that is copy-pasted endlessly.
Take condition Reaper as an example. Most Reapers use Spite/Soul Reaping/Reaper. However, even though Curses is currently inferior in many ways to Spite, running it over Spite can help you surprise foes that expect the copy paste build. Of course, this would be infinitely more true if Curses was strong enough to legitimately compete with Spite. It’s also just more fun in general to see two different kind of condition Reapers that both can demand different gear and playstyle than seeing every condi Reaper running the same spec.

I’ve found great success dropping Soul Reaping for Curses on my condi build. The constant Weakness, extra boon corruption, and extra resilience really add a lot of pressure, and since I don’t want to spend tons of time in Shroud, Soul marks is the only actual loss I feel.

Of course, that was when my mouse binds were still working…

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Necro buffs for diversity, not power creep

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

I think I might be the only one who thinks diversity is an overrated and unnecessary concept. I’d take balance any day, and trying to fit a bunch more builds into “viability” for a class, when two classes are considered (whether it’s 100% true, that’s an exercise for the reader) to be garbage in competitive sPvP, seems like a tall and inviable order.

If every class had 1 build that fit in competition, that would be a good start.

I can see where you’re coming from. It is definitely important for every class to have at least one viable role in each game mode, but it gets really boring when that role can only be filled by a single build that is copy-pasted endlessly.
Take condition Reaper as an example. Most Reapers use Spite/Soul Reaping/Reaper. However, even though Curses is currently inferior in many ways to Spite, running it over Spite can help you surprise foes that expect the copy paste build. Of course, this would be infinitely more true if Curses was strong enough to legitimately compete with Spite. It’s also just more fun in general to see two different kind of condition Reapers that both can demand different gear and playstyle than seeing every condi Reaper running the same spec.

I’ve found great success dropping Soul Reaping for Curses on my condi build. The constant Weakness, extra boon corruption, and extra resilience really add a lot of pressure, and since I don’t want to spend tons of time in Shroud, Soul marks is the only actual loss I feel.

Of course, that was when my mouse binds were still working…

Dragonbrand |Drarnor Kunoram: Charr Necro
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I’m a Geeleiver

Necro buffs for diversity, not power creep

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Posted by: Blaine Tog.8304

Blaine Tog.8304

First of I kinda want Chill trait out of reaper tree and put somewhere else. I would much prefer if old shroud was stronger for condi builds, and reaper to be more for the power build.

You say you want to increase build diversity, but then your first suggestion is to pidgeonhole Reaper as a power spec and base Necro as a condition spec. Putting aside how badly this screws over new players (play 80 levels as Condi only to have to completelly change your playstyle at the last minute and respec after grinding out your Reaper HPs), it also reduces build diversity by giving us two basic damage specs (Power Reaper vs Condi Necro) rather than 4 (Condi Reaper, Power Reaper, Condi Necro, Power Necro).

Furthermore, I’m not convinced the jury is out about Reaper being primarily a Power spec. Chill damage is certainly a good reason to run Condi Reaper, but so are the faster, multi-target-by-default autoattack (good synergy with Dhuumfire) and the rapid Poison application on Soul Spiral. The Greatsword is clearly a power weapon, but you don’t have to run Greatsword just because you’re a Reaper.

I agree that buffing weak specs is a good idea, but I don’t think the cause of build diversity is furthered by moving Deathly Chill out of Reaper.

Also to balance things out perhaps change the trait to “cause dmg instead of slower skill regen” or something so leaving chill as it is would be better for power builds!

I don’t have any problems at all with ditching the skill regen reduction from Chill for something else, though. It’s an antifun mechanic that should never have been added to the game in the first place.

Buff too old shroud:

Dark Path: Make this an instant teleport and remove the hand. That would be so much fun and so awesome and a millian times for useful of a skill that is now unreliable which is never good.

Tainted shackles: Any condition applied to you is transfered to tethered enemy instead. This would make old shourd again the condition shroud!

These are both good ideas, though I’d be ok with Dark Path if ANet just sped up the projectile significantly and made it homing. It doesn’t have to be instant, just much quicker and more reliable than it is currently.

That said, I feel compelled to point out that an instant/much quicker Dark Path benefits Power Necros way more than Condi Necros (who have no incentive to get close to an opponent) and condi transfer on Tained Shackles would also tend to benefit Power Necros more since they naturally have fewer condi removal options to begin with.

Right now all builds, condi or power must ALWAYS take reaper.

Not always (there are occasional circumstances where the Necro is better) but you’re right that the base Necro needs some buffs as well. The tricky thing will be buffing the base Necro without also buffing the Reaper. You could nerf the Reaper trait line and buff, say, Spite to compensate, but then you’d just further force Reapers to take Spite and you’d end up limiting diversity even more. Not bueno.

I main Ele and Necro, though I have an alt of each profession at level 80.
How to Condi Reaper on a budget
Everything I say is only in reference to PvE and WvW.

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Dark Path already homes.

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Posted by: Blaine Tog.8304

Blaine Tog.8304

Dark Path already homes.

Then it needs to home in a way that actually causes it to hit occasionally, cuz mobs sidestep it all the time.

I main Ele and Necro, though I have an alt of each profession at level 80.
How to Condi Reaper on a budget
Everything I say is only in reference to PvE and WvW.