(edited by Sagat.3285)
(edited by Sagat.3285)
(edited by Sagat.3285)
(edited by Rym.1469)
I laughed during the part about the Flesh Golem, also I cried because it’s true, that lazy bum is collecting unemployent.
As for the rest, nothing of it was news, not to the players and I’m sure by now not even to anet.
Also, there were a lot of false/incomplete facts about the history of buffs and nerfs, Death Shroud and life force regeneration. For example Vital Persistance wasn’t mentioned, Weakening Shroud being nerfed when the removal of the icd was actually a buff overall, and we actually do have lf generators that scale with multiple opponents: Locust Swarm, Well of Corruption and Spectral Wall. For regular healing the freshly buffed but still not viable Signet of the Locust. And of course we have several aoe skills that inflict fear, weakness, chilled or blindness, so to some extent those are too defensive mechanics that scale with multiple opponents.
And DS being weaker now than it was at release is completely wrong. Life force regen was buffed across the board, so were several traits that interact with DS, the UI has seen several very useful improvements over time, almost 2 years ago we got that 50% damage reduction bug so our pool was effectively doubled, we got Tainted Shackles, and we can now rez and stomp in DS. The Shroud back at release was nothing compared to what is is now.
Vital Persistance doesn’t give you much of an edge in PvP, it makes you less panicky with your DS but that is about it… it’s not like you get to hit more with a zerk glass cannon. Who’s honestly going to just sit there and let a glass cannon necro spam life blast ?
Weakening Shroud ICD as far as i remember was 15 sec, and the DS mechanic has 10 sec cd, maybe i remember it wrong… but it was definitely not a buff. Before the NERF every single necro used Weakening Shroud, after… no one uses it… why is that ?
Locust Swarm and Spectral Wall does not compensate for the lack of dissangage and does not make you an attrition class = afflictioner warlock WoW… if they did every single necro would be using them in all builds, you have to be mad not to…
As a defense mechanism, in my opinion DS is weaker, since we use to be able to use it as an Aegis… Enter DS get the aegis effect – lose DS, get a bit of life force – enter DS again. Not only did they remove the DS aegis effect but they also gave it a CD so even if we get life force we can’t get back in DS again…
As for the so called “bug”… it’s a common practice to say “bug” when you want to buff something that inexperienced people may not agree with.
Yeah… life force generation IS stronger… for 1v1s… which again doesn’t really solve the main issue.
I did however forgot to talk about the fact you can now res and stomp in DS, ma bad…
But… i also didn’t talk about how the Dhuumfire “buff” crushed our build variety, because it limits all our damage options into one traitline. Think about how low are damage is now if we don’t go for Dhuumfire, since it’s lower even WITH Dhuumfire.
I agree on the fact that the necromancer should have never been a condition burster, more of an attrition point-pressure… we just lack the attrition part from condition build, it’s actually so bad now that people are going Leroy Jenkings glass cannon…
My question is… why would you play a necromancer glass cannon in PvP, when you can play any other class as a glass cannon and do the same damage if not more but also have… “dissangage” ?
I have seen noobs faceroll 3 buttons and do really well in a team fight… and really experienced necromancers get demolished in the same team fights…
There is a reason why in 900+ players there were only 58 necromancer players… there is a reason necromancer has the least builds voted viable on metabattle…
GW2 PvP system = focus fire burst while target is CCed + spam invulnerability effects
IF target = dead /write noob, EZ
IF target = alive /dissangage
People still don’t get that if you lose to a necromancer in 1v1, with all your evades and blocks and mist forms… doesn’t mean that necromancer fairs the same in a focus fire scenario. Yet all your evades and mist forms and distortion effects still do…
If the Death Shroud which doesn’t scale up or down, was balanced around 5v5s… intended to take the punishment of 4-5 players… NO ONE… WOULD EVER… kill a necromancer in 1v1. #fact
Terror is burst.
Them 2.5k condi tick bursts.
terror doesnt tick for 2.5k
I was referring to what Terror + Bleeds + Poison will usually tick for all together. Which rarely exceeds the stated amount. Hardly a burst.
I already did the math for best case scenario of “the condi burst” in my video… it’s right next to the 13k backstab hit i got from a thief
(edited by Nemesis.8593)
(edited by Rym.1469)
(edited by Nemesis.8593)
No doubt that necros are in bad shape and not favorable for high end pvp, but couple of minor things you should have noticed in 101 games:
1. You mentioned dagger 1 didn’t get buffed, but it actually did get a cleave. It’s actually very helpful in team fights. Plus, you will often use dagger 1 to build LF on a down body, so the extra cleave is nice to take out the ranger pet or any squishy that may come by to help rez.
2. Spectral Walk is another escape and teleport…not just the worm. It doesn’t compare to other class options, but it’s probably more reliable than the worm, especially if around a z-axis that you can leverage to your advantage.
3. I didn’t see you running much power or spectral builds. Spectral attunement buff made LF building quite good and gives you much more survivability because you have more DS more often. Also, the extended period on spectral wall can be extremely powerful in certain scenarios (i.e escape or cutoff people to a node/down body/etc).
4. Wells are very helpful in team fights as well as Lich. Condi necros just don’t have enough AOE pressure, so it’s no surprise you found them lacking in team pvp…but fine in duels.
5. You didn’t focus enough on one of the main weaknesses of Necros….long cast times. You can’t have a class that is so susceptible to cc and designed to be a damage sponge, but ALSO give them long cast times on meaningful abilities. Focus cast times need serious reduction…Corrupt boon needs to be virtually instant…Worm needs to be near instant…dagger 5 is way too long…all the healing skills are too long for a class that can’t even heal in DS…the list goes on.
6. Another big weakness you should have spent more time on is the lack of LF at the start of matches. This makes anywhere from 30-70% of our traits useless at the start of the match, as well kitten other skills that include our big damage and survivability tools…not to mention…a necro without LF (or with DS on cooldown) is the squishiest MMO class ever created.
All-in-all though, it was a great job of outlining the issues. Even with the things I pointed out above, it doesn’t change your overall conclusions, but it does provide a more complete picture that doesn’t seem as biased to 1 specific build.
1. I was thinking of actual damage value increase… but you know you are kind of right, it is… something… even though going glass cannon trying to slice a group of people is a suicide sentence…
2. I was making a point that the same “escape” tools are also used to traverse the map at a faster rate then what swiftness provides, and if you are stuck in combat even faster… Spectral Walk is just swiftness as far as mobility is concerned… i can’t use it to win a race to a team fight vs any other class… so that’s why i didn’t count it.
3. The meta power builds are a death sentence… you have 70% the damage of any other glass cannon and no disengage…
4. Only noobs stay in wells… @blinking targets in my video that i couldn’t even damage with scepter auto-attacks which are 1/2 sec cast time.
5. I did mention this aspect, when i showcased in slow motion how easy it is to dodge most necro high CD skills, but i didn’t remained on that fact for too long since i was trying to provide clear bigger picture.
Look what happens when i team fight… vs look what happens when any other class team fights… & 1v1s don’t happen often… & mobility matters for reinforcing locations or fights.
6. It was in the original plan to talk about it, but i cut it out since i had no more room… was trying to keep the video under 30 minutes and still failed… You are 100% correct on this regard.
As for being biased… i did try out multiple variations of condition builds which are the most highly upvoted everywhere.
Every single power necro i met did nothing in a team fight… even if i didn’t personally made sure he dies instantly… @in my video you can notice a few Lich Formed enemies, that didn’t even hit my team once
.
(edited by Nemesis.8593)
No doubt that necros are in bad shape and not favorable for high end pvp, but couple of minor things you should have noticed in 101 games:
1. You mentioned dagger 1 didn’t get buffed, but it actually did get a cleave. It’s actually very helpful in team fights. Plus, you will often use dagger 1 to build LF on a down body, so the extra cleave is nice to take out the ranger pet or any squishy that may come by to help rez.
2. Spectral Walk is another escape and teleport…not just the worm. It doesn’t compare to other class options, but it’s probably more reliable than the worm, especially if around a z-axis that you can leverage to your advantage.
3. I didn’t see you running much power or spectral builds. Spectral attunement buff made LF building quite good and gives you much more survivability because you have more DS more often. Also, the extended period on spectral wall can be extremely powerful in certain scenarios (i.e escape or cutoff people to a node/down body/etc).
4. Wells are very helpful in team fights as well as Lich. Condi necros just don’t have enough AOE pressure, so it’s no surprise you found them lacking in team pvp…but fine in duels.
5. You didn’t focus enough on one of the main weaknesses of Necros….long cast times. You can’t have a class that is so susceptible to cc and designed to be a damage sponge, but ALSO give them long cast times on meaningful abilities. Focus cast times need serious reduction…Corrupt boon needs to be virtually instant…Worm needs to be near instant…dagger 5 is way too long…all the healing skills are too long for a class that can’t even heal in DS…the list goes on.
6. Another big weakness you should have spent more time on is the lack of LF at the start of matches. This makes anywhere from 30-70% of our traits useless at the start of the match, as well kitten other skills that include our big damage and survivability tools…not to mention…a necro without LF (or with DS on cooldown) is the squishiest MMO class ever created.
All-in-all though, it was a great job of outlining the issues. Even with the things I pointed out above, it doesn’t change your overall conclusions, but it does provide a more complete picture that doesn’t seem as biased to 1 specific build.
1. I was thinking of actual damage value increase… but you know you are kind of right, it is… something… even though going glass cannon trying to slice a group of people is a suicide sentence…
2. I was making a point that the same “escape” tools are also used to traverse the map at a faster rate then what swiftness provides, and if you are stuck in combat even faster… Spectral Walk is just swiftness as far as mobility is concerned… i can’t use it to win a race to a team fight vs any other class… so that’s why i didn’t count it.
3. The meta power builds are a death sentence… you have 70% the damage of any other glass cannon and no disengage…
4. Only noobs stay in wells… @blinking targets in my video that i couldn’t even damage with scepter auto-attacks which are 1/2 sec cast time.
5. I did mention this aspect, when i showcased in slow motion how easy it is to dodge most necro high CD skills, but i didn’t remained on that fact for too long since i was trying to provide clear bigger picture.
Look what happens when i team fight… vs look what happens when any other class team fights… & 1v1s don’t happen often… & mobility matters for reinforcing locations or fights.6. It was in the original plan to talk about it, but i cut it out since i had no more room… was trying to keep the video under 30 minutes and still failed… You are 100% correct on this regard.
As for being biased… i did try out multiple variations of condition builds which are the most highly upvoted everywhere.
Every single power necro i met did nothing in a team fight… even if i didn’t personally made sure he dies instantly… @in my video you can notice a few Lich Formed enemies, that didn’t even hit my team once
To be honest atm you have a better chance at being useful on a power build, I even find the survivability better since people tend to panic a little. even if you die you force people to stomp you or get melted.
1. I was thinking of actual damage value increase… but you know you are kind of right, it is… something… even though going glass cannon trying to slice a group of people is a suicide sentence…
2. I was making a point that the same “escape” tools are also used to traverse the map at a faster rate then what swiftness provides, and if you are stuck in combat even faster… Spectral Walk is just swiftness as far as mobility is concerned… i can’t use it to win a race to a team fight vs any other class… so that’s why i didn’t count it.
3. The meta power builds are a death sentence… you have 70% the damage of any other glass cannon and no disengage…
4. Only noobs stay in wells… @blinking targets in my video that i couldn’t even damage with scepter auto-attacks which are 1/2 sec cast time.
5. I did mention this aspect, when i showcased in slow motion how easy it is to dodge most necro high CD skills, but i didn’t remained on that fact for too long since i was trying to provide clear bigger picture.
Look what happens when i team fight… vs look what happens when any other class team fights… & 1v1s don’t happen often… & mobility matters for reinforcing locations or fights.6. It was in the original plan to talk about it, but i cut it out since i had no more room… was trying to keep the video under 30 minutes and still failed… You are 100% correct on this regard.
As for being biased… i did try out multiple variations of condition builds which are the most highly upvoted everywhere.
Every single power necro i met did nothing in a team fight… even if i didn’t personally made sure he dies instantly… @in my video you can notice a few Lich Formed enemies, that didn’t even hit my team once
I think you need to rethink the way you play after being away 8 months. Other classes changed too.
For example, you probably didn’t have to worry about turret engies 8 months ago, but they are plentiful and effective node protectors now. Thus, when you claim wells are useless, you really don’t know what you’re talking about.
Even if good players get out of wells, you are effectively cc’ing them. They have to move/dodge instead of clicking a damage or cc skill on you. Two wells cover a lot of ground that they need to get out of. You can make them blow dodges…which allows them to be hit more reliably after.
Alternatively, you can hit them with focus 5 or dagger 3 and keep them in the wells for lots of damage. Don’t forget dropping wells on a down bodies that can’t move for mass carnage and boon ripping of rezzers.
Same goes for spectral walk.
I agree it’s not a race winner against certain other abilities, but it’s also not a one trick pony either. You can use it to juke, leverage a z-axis, build LF, or do some clutch play. It gives almost perma swiftness with spectral attunement builds, so you can’t leave it out of the movement/escape discussion…especially since it’s much better than the worm in most situations.
Just one example…especially with spectral attunement…you can click it halfway to picking up the repair treb kit, and cover a lot of ground back with the port. It’s not as fast as a mesmer with portal, but it’s useful. You just need to try different things.
That terrormancer build won’t cut it anymore. It’s pretty bad now and that’s probably what was influencing your thoughts more than anything.
Again, you’re overall premise is correct. There is no sweet spot with Necros right now in PvP. Any other class can do your job better.
However, you DEFINITELY can’t go into PvP with only 18k health playing a condi necro and expect to help your team much at all.
If you don’t want to learn a different profession, you have to make do with certain Necro niches and think out of the box to use things that make you less a liability and somewhat helpful.
1. I was thinking of actual damage value increase… but you know you are kind of right, it is… something… even though going glass cannon trying to slice a group of people is a suicide sentence…
2. I was making a point that the same “escape” tools are also used to traverse the map at a faster rate then what swiftness provides, and if you are stuck in combat even faster… Spectral Walk is just swiftness as far as mobility is concerned… i can’t use it to win a race to a team fight vs any other class… so that’s why i didn’t count it.
3. The meta power builds are a death sentence… you have 70% the damage of any other glass cannon and no disengage…
4. Only noobs stay in wells… @blinking targets in my video that i couldn’t even damage with scepter auto-attacks which are 1/2 sec cast time.
5. I did mention this aspect, when i showcased in slow motion how easy it is to dodge most necro high CD skills, but i didn’t remained on that fact for too long since i was trying to provide clear bigger picture.
Look what happens when i team fight… vs look what happens when any other class team fights… & 1v1s don’t happen often… & mobility matters for reinforcing locations or fights.6. It was in the original plan to talk about it, but i cut it out since i had no more room… was trying to keep the video under 30 minutes and still failed… You are 100% correct on this regard.
As for being biased… i did try out multiple variations of condition builds which are the most highly upvoted everywhere.
Every single power necro i met did nothing in a team fight… even if i didn’t personally made sure he dies instantly… @in my video you can notice a few Lich Formed enemies, that didn’t even hit my team onceI think you need to rethink the way you play after being away 8 months. Other classes changed too.
For example, you probably didn’t have to worry about turret engies 8 months ago, but they are plentiful and effective node protectors now. Thus, when you claim wells are useless, you really don’t know what you’re talking about.
Even if good players get out of wells, you are effectively cc’ing them. They have to move/dodge instead of clicking a damage or cc skill on you. Two wells cover a lot of ground that they need to get out of. You can make them blow dodges…which allows them to be hit more reliably after.
Alternatively, you can hit them with focus 5 or dagger 3 and keep them in the wells for lots of damage. Don’t forget dropping wells on a down bodies that can’t move for mass carnage and boon ripping of rezzers.
Same goes for spectral walk.
I agree it’s not a race winner against certain other abilities, but it’s also not a one trick pony either. You can use it to juke, leverage a z-axis, build LF, or do some clutch play. It gives almost perma swiftness with spectral attunement builds, so you can’t leave it out of the movement/escape discussion…especially since it’s much better than the worm in most situations.
Just one example…especially with spectral attunement…you can click it halfway to picking up the repair treb kit, and cover a lot of ground back with the port. It’s not as fast as a mesmer with portal, but it’s useful. You just need to try different things.
That terrormancer build won’t cut it anymore. It’s pretty bad now and that’s probably what was influencing your thoughts more than anything.
Again, you’re overall premise is correct. There is no sweet spot with Necros right now in PvP. Any other class can do your job better.
However, you DEFINITELY can’t go into PvP with only 18k health playing a condi necro and expect to help your team much at all.
If you don’t want to learn a different profession, you have to make do with certain Necro niches and think out of the box to use things that make you less a liability and somewhat helpful.
Well… in your opinion i am wrong to play a condition build, and so are the majority of people on metabattle.com.
In my opinion, and i’ve had this for over 10 years… every time i hear someone saying “you can this, you can that” as if your opponent is just going to stand there and let you do all of that, i immediately lose interest…
PS: thieves go into PvP with a hell of a lot less HP and armor and they help the team 2-3x more… due to their insane disengage and unmatched mobility they literally have the option to ONLY engage in a fight when the odds are severely in their favor aka “outnumbering”…
That is why a thief can carry… going to learn me some thief…
(first im not a native english speaker, so sry for bad english )
I also think Anet should spend more love for necro, but I also agree with SPESHAL.9106.
I rly love to play Terrormancer, and that Build I use is fine it was, but totally different from urs Nemesis. Maybe thats the key, just try some other Traits, Utillitys and Weapons. I saw in ur video, u have some trouble with stomping ppl. I always safestomp, cause I get Stability from the Foot in Grave-Trait to do so or use Plague. Its such amazing, cause its also a stunbreak now. I never lack stunbreakers before that change, for me its now only a nice to have, but not rly necessary.
I also have enough mobilty with using Warhorn instead of Offhanddagger (I never liked Offhanddagger by the way) and Spectralwalk. I never need fleshwurm. Maybe my experience is this way, cause I don´t play on highlvl. I know I´m not the best and so I don´t get the best opponents. Maybe thats the only thing, why that works pretty good for me. ^^"
What I try to say is, just play with Traits and so on. If ur Build doesn´t work fine now, change a bit.
(first im not a native english speaker, so sry for bad english
I also think Anet should spend more love for necro, but I also agree with SPESHAL.9106.
I rly love to play Terrormancer, and that Build I use is fine it was, but totally different from urs Nemesis. Maybe thats the key, just try some other Traits, Utillitys and Weapons. I saw in ur video, u have some trouble with stomping ppl. I always safestomp, cause I get Stability from the Foot in Grave-Trait to do so or use Plague. Its such amazing, cause its also a stunbreak now. I never lack stunbreakers before that change, for me its now only a nice to have, but not rly necessary.
I also have enough mobilty with using Warhorn instead of Offhanddagger (I never liked Offhanddagger by the way) and Spectralwalk. I never need fleshwurm. Maybe my experience is this way, cause I don´t play on highlvl. I know I´m not the best and so I don´t get the best opponents. Maybe thats the only thing, why that works pretty good for me. ^^"
What I try to say is, just play with Traits and so on. If ur Build doesn´t work fine now, change a bit.
He did say he tried variations I do the same after every match at one point I went to blow off some steam in PvE. Issue with terromancer is that most of the damage comes from converting boons and transferring conditions but they allowed AoE cleansing and boons to get out of control without buffing boon hate add that the necro’s fragile state they kittened up.
The only reason I consider power better is that you can “tank” longer, it has nothing to do with zerker just stack more HP they can take down buys more time.
(first im not a native english speaker, so sry for bad english
I also think Anet should spend more love for necro, but I also agree with SPESHAL.9106.
I rly love to play Terrormancer, and that Build I use is fine it was, but totally different from urs Nemesis. Maybe thats the key, just try some other Traits, Utillitys and Weapons. I saw in ur video, u have some trouble with stomping ppl. I always safestomp, cause I get Stability from the Foot in Grave-Trait to do so or use Plague. Its such amazing, cause its also a stunbreak now. I never lack stunbreakers before that change, for me its now only a nice to have, but not rly necessary.
I also have enough mobilty with using Warhorn instead of Offhanddagger (I never liked Offhanddagger by the way) and Spectralwalk. I never need fleshwurm. Maybe my experience is this way, cause I don´t play on highlvl. I know I´m not the best and so I don´t get the best opponents. Maybe thats the only thing, why that works pretty good for me. ^^"
What I try to say is, just play with Traits and so on. If ur Build doesn´t work fine now, change a bit.He did say he tried variations I do the same after every match at one point I went to blow off some steam in PvE. Issue with terromancer is that most of the damage comes from converting boons and transferring conditions but they allowed AoE cleansing and boons to get out of control without buffing boon hate add that the necro’s fragile state they kittened up.
The only reason I consider power better is that you can “tank” longer, it has nothing to do with zerker just stack more HP they can take down buys more time.
Actually I have no problems with that AoE cleansing. Because of that I invest in more condidmg, nothing in Duration. I have also only Corrupt Boon to convert (I use that mostly to prevent stomp an ally or to rip his defense he popped to prevent his dead; not for dmg itself) and Staff 4 for transfer. So I would say, thats rly not my dmg-ressource. I just apply condi after condi, even if they remove it then, I apply new.
But I also say, I´m not playing at a high level, so maybe I just don´t have ur problems now. ^^"
(edited by DelightArt.9604)
(first im not a native english speaker, so sry for bad english
I also think Anet should spend more love for necro, but I also agree with SPESHAL.9106.
I rly love to play Terrormancer, and that Build I use is fine it was, but totally different from urs Nemesis. Maybe thats the key, just try some other Traits, Utillitys and Weapons. I saw in ur video, u have some trouble with stomping ppl. I always safestomp, cause I get Stability from the Foot in Grave-Trait to do so or use Plague. Its such amazing, cause its also a stunbreak now. I never lack stunbreakers before that change, for me its now only a nice to have, but not rly necessary.
I also have enough mobilty with using Warhorn instead of Offhanddagger (I never liked Offhanddagger by the way) and Spectralwalk. I never need fleshwurm. Maybe my experience is this way, cause I don´t play on highlvl. I know I´m not the best and so I don´t get the best opponents. Maybe thats the only thing, why that works pretty good for me. ^^"
What I try to say is, just play with Traits and so on. If ur Build doesn´t work fine now, change a bit.He did say he tried variations I do the same after every match at one point I went to blow off some steam in PvE. Issue with terromancer is that most of the damage comes from converting boons and transferring conditions but they allowed AoE cleansing and boons to get out of control without buffing boon hate add that the necro’s fragile state they kittened up.
The only reason I consider power better is that you can “tank” longer, it has nothing to do with zerker just stack more HP they can take down buys more time.
Actually I have no problems with that AoE cleansing. Because of that I invest in more condidmg, nothing in Duration. I have also only Corrupt Boon to convert (I use that mostly to prevent stomp an ally or to rip his defese he popped to prevent his dead; not for dmg itself) and Staff 4 for transfer. So I would say, thats rly not my dmg-ressource. I just apply condi after condi, even if they remove it then, I apply new.
But I also say, I´m not playing at a high level, so maybe I just don´t have ur problems now. ^^"
Pretty much so I started doing the same a while ago, gave up on spite when full curses and condition burst rather than sustained. It didn’t make much off difference everyone knows how easy necro is to focus and how weak boon hate is, at this point it feels like they knew about it and want it to stay like that, they never cared.
