Guild Wars 2

Silverkey.2078:

If you look at PvP, while still having a “meta”, you see that the top teams are players, not classes. Many of them have their favorite class and just stick to it, regardless of the meta. Nos for example is playing necro, and while people almost accuse him of being a burden to the team, the fact is that he is still a core member of the best team in NA, because he is a good player. (On that subject, if you look at the twitchcon, I absolutely hate how Grouch and Hugh Norfolk kept insulting him during the stronghold match).

The sole reason why the PvE community got so toxic is that the content is doable by anyone who knows reasonably the dungeon. The goal is just to do the content as fast as possible to maximize the income. The dungeons are basically not fun-driven but reward-driven.

From what I can see, currently raids reward coordination more than the choice of class. So the problems may be less. Also, since you will most likely play with regular friends and not PUG, the chances of being bullied for being a necro are minimal… or change your friends.

I agree on all accounts. I’ve always found it really interesting how people will immediately discount the fact that Nos plays Necro at a high level. All kinds of excuses are used, but the crux of the matter is that given the current community of players, a team demonstrably shows that bringing the player, not the class, can bring success. The class’s shortcomings do not restrict the team from succeeding since they have coordination and cohesion. Is ANet supposed to balance the game around some theoretical group of professionals who don’t play as their “high level” meta? Seems like a tall order to me.

Part of the problem with PvE is that it has almost always, in all games, been a reward-driven experience. GW2 tried to do something different in not rewarding gear power, but gear aesthetic instead, but PvEers want their progression. At a high level, they also want some means of competition. Dungeons were not suited to accommodate that at all, and Fractals started down that path with stat-based gating without power creep.

So what will raids do? Will ANet keep them difficult, requiring more organized groups? Or will they succumb to the parade of complaints that will ensue if people cannot easily pug the content? And if people can pug the content, what does high-level PvE turn into again? A race to complete as quickly as possible? If so, balance is going to be a nightmare of super-optimal class combinations which will inevitably lead to class exclusions (most likely more than just Necromancer).

If content stays difficult and requires organization, I hope they can maintain a “bring the player, not the class” methodology.

Atherakhia.4086:

Things to keep in mind though is dagger is still higher DPS than greatsword auto attack. Dagger + Locust does about the same damage as grave digger. So really Reaper isn’t going to be pulling away from base Necro all that well just from doing very quick math.

Perhaps others who are more vested could provide better numbers.

Not sure, but I think Reaper Shroud AA is bigger DPS than Dagger, everyone is mentioning Greatsword, RS AA has much better DPS than GS.

Bhawb.7408:

Silverkey.2078:

If you look at PvP, while still having a “meta”, you see that the top teams are players, not classes. Many of them have their favorite class and just stick to it, regardless of the meta. Nos for example is playing necro, and while people almost accuse him of being a burden to the team, the fact is that he is still a core member of the best team in NA, because he is a good player. (On that subject, if you look at the twitchcon, I absolutely hate how Grouch and Hugh Norfolk kept insulting him during the stronghold match).

Nos being able to play Necro on the top NA team means very little. A lot of top players would say the same thing, Nos holds his team back by playing an underpowered profession, but his team cohesion is probably more important at this point, and GW2 PvP doesn’t have strong enough competition to matter. Look at League pre-LCS and see all the garbage pro players that were allowed to be pros because the competition was comparatively low.

Well that’s exactly my point. The Abjured do not take Nos in their team because he plays a strong class, but because he is a good player and they play well together. And Nos plays necro because he likes it and he’s good at it. So conclusion, in PvP you can have player>class.

Cylokin.2560:

Atherakhia.4086:

Things to keep in mind though is dagger is still higher DPS than greatsword auto attack. Dagger + Locust does about the same damage as grave digger. So really Reaper isn’t going to be pulling away from base Necro all that well just from doing very quick math.

Perhaps others who are more vested could provide better numbers.

Not sure, but I think Reaper Shroud AA is bigger DPS than Dagger, everyone is mentioning Greatsword, RS AA has much better DPS than GS.

In PvE (i.e. ideal conditions) dagger and GS are better than RS. Below 50% GS > dagger. Above 50%, I don’t think people have calculated the rotation…
In PvP, all the traits favoring shroud means RS > everything.

When making claims like that, you’ve really got to show the math used to reach that conclusion.

Cylokin.2560:

Atherakhia.4086:

- .

Not sure, but I think Reaper Shroud AA is bigger DPS than Dagger, everyone is mentioning Greatsword, RS AA has much better DPS than GS.

Ranking currently goes: Deathshroud, Reapers Shroud, Pure Greatsword, Dagger/Horn, Greatsword/Dagger/Horn mix, Gravedigger Spam. There is quite a sizable gap between the shroud builds and the shroudless ones, but in exchange the shroud builds solo stack might and vulnerability, so in “solo” situations they end up pulling ahead of everything bar Gravedigger spam.

@Silverkey&Cogbyrn: Your arguments, while nice and agreeable in theory, they crash hard against reality. What’s the top 1% can do has little meaning for the majority of the player base because, duh, they are the top so by definition they account for a very small number of players.

The hard truth is that unless you are a godly player, profession > player due to imbalances. They had to add a new rule to ESL Europe Tournament (“Each team needs to consist of at least 3 different professions.”) to put a stop to 3-5 D/D Elementalists teams. Metabattle even made a mocking page http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_Overskill to underline how ridiculous and out of hand the situation was both in Europe and NA.

Anyway Reaper is perfectly fine in PvP, we are talking about PvE. In PvE “skilled” mostly translates into “encounter knowledgeable” because fight mechanics are 100% predictable.

If you have experience of fighting bosses with the new defiant bar using Reaper in a 5-10 players instanced setting, please share it here. If you don’t feel free to comment the feedback written by other players, but please STOP derailing the thread with unrelated arguments.

At the end of the day, I thought this thread was about whether Reapers have a slot in Raids/Dungeons, not specifically the Defiance Bar alone. Is it off-topic to think about where/how a Necromancer fits in compositions given soft-CC applies a DoT to the defiance bar? Where does that leave the class, and is that position acceptable?

Also, PvE skill is not just “encounter knowledge”. It’s about the ability to listen, learn, adapt, execute, and maintain focus. At least, in well-designed PvE. I constantly see players sell PvE short because it’s an AI fight, then I actually play games and watch droves of people fail simple mechanics.

Is it also off-topic to define what high-level PvE actually is? If we’re talking about how soft-CC rolling into the Defiant Bar and not affecting the mob knocks the Necromancer class down as a desired class, what situation are you looking to have Necromancer be desired in? Speed-running raids? Progressing fastest through raid content?

How are you measuring the success of a class in PvE?

The reality is, short of Robert H Geezus giving Necros/Reaper some OP support ability, a lot of PvEers blindly following guides are going to discriminate against the necro. It happens in every game.

Skilled players know that ultimately, it is the player NOT the class that ultimately matters. But in a game where the significantly less majority simply follows the slightly more skilled minority, some classes are going to get burned. Short of an OP ability or nerf to other classes OP support, the only sure way of getting into raids is with a guild team.

fortunately, for me I am at a point in my life were raids have no appeal to me. So I am not going to dwell to much about missing out.

Cogbyrn.7283:

How are you measuring the success of a class in PvE?

High end PVE is not about speed, at least not in the sense that high end PVE is about speed running. Naw, that’s a fun side game once you’ve mastered the content enough that you find it pretty trivial.

High End PVE is when content is actually something that you might fail and be unable to complete.

In that sense, if a class puts your group at such a disadvantage that it may push it to the point that they can’t complete the content, then it’s a bad profession.

I think Necro is ok at this point, not great, but ok. Reaper is going to be a strong damage profession. Necro as a whole is nice in that it is a very durable profession almost tailor made to do things like absorbing those lightning fields. As far as range damge is concerned I think Necro is actually a decent one, I know compared to Engi it’s very close, if the target is mobile Ele falls a lot, and I’m not sure on Ranger but I’d imagine they’re up there (esp with double LB quick draw).

I’m content with Necro currently esp with the design of what we’ve seen for raids so far. If I had complaints it’d be more general game stuff (bleeds need to be better, burn worse) and I’d still kill for a block and or evade skill (even on longer than average cooldown). I don’t think Necro is far off from being a solid addition, and certainly an acceptable one.

High-end PvE should be a difficult, real-time puzzle that changes depending upon actions taken by individuals and teams.

It should be a mixture of (1) tPvP where players need to know what every profession and specialization needs for support with (2) highly-intelligent proactive and reactive AIs aggressively countering a team’s strategy while also having specific strengths and weaknesses players are expected to memorize and build for.

Do the raid bosses dodge red circles or attempt to interrupt big attacks or heals? Were they immune to lightning while the break bar drops faster to blind than any other condition? Did any boss corrupt one type of boon like fury and strip other types?

Anchoku.8142:

High-end PvE should be a difficult, real-time puzzle that changes depending upon actions taken by individuals and teams.

It should be a mixture of (1) tPvP where players need to know what every profession and specialization needs for support with (2) highly-intelligent proactive and reactive AIs aggressively countering a team’s strategy while also having specific strengths and weaknesses players are expected to memorize and build for.

Do the raid bosses dodge red circles or attempt to interrupt big attacks or heals? Were they immune to lightning while the break bar drops faster to blind than any other condition? Did any boss corrupt one type of boon like fury and strip other types?

I’ll say if that was how high end PVE was defined I’d not be doing high end PVE. What you describe is taking PVP and making PVE to replicate it. They’ve very different entities.

The main difference is that I’m not going against a player. It’s not skill vs skill, it’s skill vs mechanics set up to activate either statically or randomly in a way to challenge the player. When randomness doesn’t give you counter play so that you can overcome it with skill, well it’s just silly. Randomly evading bosses are dumb. Ones that intelligently evade can be manipulated and it’d be another form of CC. I could go on, but I think that what you describe is great for PVP because it’s skill vs skill, if you get interrupted/dodged its’ because taht player was good enough to answer your tell, in PVE it’d just be either random or manipulatable and naw, that’s not good design.

Jerus.4350:

Anchoku.8142:

High-end PvE should be a difficult, real-time puzzle that changes depending upon actions taken by individuals and teams.

It should be a mixture of (1) tPvP where players need to know what every profession and specialization needs for support with (2) highly-intelligent proactive and reactive AIs aggressively countering a team’s strategy while also having specific strengths and weaknesses players are expected to memorize and build for.

Do the raid bosses dodge red circles or attempt to interrupt big attacks or heals? Were they immune to lightning while the break bar drops faster to blind than any other condition? Did any boss corrupt one type of boon like fury and strip other types?

I’ll say if that was how high end PVE was defined I’d not be doing high end PVE. What you describe is taking PVP and making PVE to replicate it. They’ve very different entities.

The main difference is that I’m not going against a player. It’s not skill vs skill, it’s skill vs mechanics set up to activate either statically or randomly in a way to challenge the player. When randomness doesn’t give you counter play so that you can overcome it with skill, well it’s just silly. Randomly evading bosses are dumb. Ones that intelligently evade can be manipulated and it’d be another form of CC. I could go on, but I think that what you describe is great for PVP because it’s skill vs skill, if you get interrupted/dodged its’ because taht player was good enough to answer your tell, in PVE it’d just be either random or manipulatable and naw, that’s not good design.

AI that behaves more like player is good design. You issue seems more like you want content that can be conquered easily after countless repetition.

I guess that makes sense. PvEers want “difficult” content in a sense that they want content that will challenging for a couple of days.

I don’t think AI needs to try to behave more like a player to be interesting/engaging. I also don’t think AI acting more like a player would help secure a place in a raid/dungeon for Necromancers. If anything, it would just add behavior that would get analyzed, then most probably cheesed.

If you want to have a conversation about it and not just have the generic PVP posturing about how superior you are, please go ahead.

PlatinumMember.5274:

Jerus.4350:

Anchoku.8142:

High-end PvE should be a difficult, real-time puzzle that changes depending upon actions taken by individuals and teams.

It should be a mixture of (1) tPvP where players need to know what every profession and specialization needs for support with (2) highly-intelligent proactive and reactive AIs aggressively countering a team’s strategy while also having specific strengths and weaknesses players are expected to memorize and build for.

Do the raid bosses dodge red circles or attempt to interrupt big attacks or heals? Were they immune to lightning while the break bar drops faster to blind than any other condition? Did any boss corrupt one type of boon like fury and strip other types?

I’ll say if that was how high end PVE was defined I’d not be doing high end PVE. What you describe is taking PVP and making PVE to replicate it. They’ve very different entities.

The main difference is that I’m not going against a player. It’s not skill vs skill, it’s skill vs mechanics set up to activate either statically or randomly in a way to challenge the player. When randomness doesn’t give you counter play so that you can overcome it with skill, well it’s just silly. Randomly evading bosses are dumb. Ones that intelligently evade can be manipulated and it’d be another form of CC. I could go on, but I think that what you describe is great for PVP because it’s skill vs skill, if you get interrupted/dodged its’ because taht player was good enough to answer your tell, in PVE it’d just be either random or manipulatable and naw, that’s not good design.

AI that behaves more like player is good design. You issue seems more like you want content that can be conquered easily after countless repetition.

I guess that makes sense. PvEers want “difficult” content in a sense that they want content that will challenging for a couple of days.

AI behaving more like players would be really boring… Fighting off point, spamming 1 skill over and over, going off to solo something for no reason, rage quitting mid fight…

No thanks, I’d rather my interesting and engaging mechanics with tight timers and good teamwork required.

Silverkey.2078:

Well that’s exactly my point. The Abjured do not take Nos in their team because he plays a strong class, but because he is a good player and they play well together. And Nos plays necro because he likes it and he’s good at it. So conclusion, in PvP you can have player>class.

The problem is this is only true while competition is too low for optimization to matter. This doesn’t mean Necro isn’t bad, or that you can do whatever you want as long as you do it well. He can do this while still allowing Abjured to be #1 NA because in PvP being #1 only requires that you be better than the #2 team. However in PvE, you can measurably compete against yourself, speed runs on their own require utmost optimization because even if you have no outside competition you can always beat your own record. That’s why PvP “allows” for underpowered professions to seemingly excel, whereas PvE chokes out everything except the best. Its a lot like saying Clerics gear is okay for PvE because you can still complete the content like anyone else.

If at any point GW2’s PvP got stronger competition though, we’d see the same thing in PvP that we see in PvE, though it already happens in general. Players would be forced to play optimal setups, instead of getting by due to lack of pressure.

Onerios.4962:

Cylokin.2560:

Atherakhia.4086:

- .

Not sure, but I think Reaper Shroud AA is bigger DPS than Dagger, everyone is mentioning Greatsword, RS AA has much better DPS than GS.

Ranking currently goes: Deathshroud, Reapers Shroud, Pure Greatsword, Dagger/Horn, Greatsword/Dagger/Horn mix, Gravedigger Spam. There is quite a sizable gap between the shroud builds and the shroudless ones, but in exchange the shroud builds solo stack might and vulnerability, so in “solo” situations they end up pulling ahead of everything bar Gravedigger spam.

From the math I have done GS>Dagger/Horn for dps.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

PlatinumMember.5274:

Jerus.4350:

Anchoku.8142:

High-end PvE should be a difficult, real-time puzzle that changes depending upon actions taken by individuals and teams.

It should be a mixture of (1) tPvP where players need to know what every profession and specialization needs for support with (2) highly-intelligent proactive and reactive AIs aggressively countering a team’s strategy while also having specific strengths and weaknesses players are expected to memorize and build for.

Do the raid bosses dodge red circles or attempt to interrupt big attacks or heals? Were they immune to lightning while the break bar drops faster to blind than any other condition? Did any boss corrupt one type of boon like fury and strip other types?

I’ll say if that was how high end PVE was defined I’d not be doing high end PVE. What you describe is taking PVP and making PVE to replicate it. They’ve very different entities.

The main difference is that I’m not going against a player. It’s not skill vs skill, it’s skill vs mechanics set up to activate either statically or randomly in a way to challenge the player. When randomness doesn’t give you counter play so that you can overcome it with skill, well it’s just silly. Randomly evading bosses are dumb. Ones that intelligently evade can be manipulated and it’d be another form of CC. I could go on, but I think that what you describe is great for PVP because it’s skill vs skill, if you get interrupted/dodged its’ because taht player was good enough to answer your tell, in PVE it’d just be either random or manipulatable and naw, that’s not good design.

AI that behaves more like player is good design. You issue seems more like you want content that can be conquered easily after countless repetition.

I guess that makes sense. PvEers want “difficult” content in a sense that they want content that will challenging for a couple of days.

AI behaving more like players would be really boring… Fighting off point, spamming 1 skill over and over, going off to solo something for no reason, rage quitting mid fight…

No thanks, I’d rather my interesting and engaging mechanics with tight timers and good teamwork required.

I wasn’t talking about AI designed to the level of the average guild wars 2 dungeon player. I hope you realize AI or mechanics can be designed to be more advanced than that.

@Cogbyrn: Please read the first post. This topic is raising and discussing the following concerns:

• Defiance bars are creating a massive functionality overlap between soft CC and hard CC.
• Reaper brings chill and damage.
• Chill has the same value as any other CC available to all professions.
• Reaper damage is good, but other professions are equally good while bringing more support.
• Base necro has little support and what it has isn’t in high demand.
• Our other debuffs have little or no value by design in PvE.
• Reaper’s spot in raids is in jeopardy because his signature functionality (chill) becomes a featureless commodity against defiant bars.

If you are wondering where Necro/Reaper is fitting in a party composition for it’s defiance DoT, well they aren’t. As the beta showed us the defiance bar is immune for 99% of the fight and when it’s available it melts in seconds. Really there is no strategy/management to defiance bars. In my opinion they are more boring than the current system and taking away even more power from the players. A shortcut to outright erase and forget control and disables from PvE except for 10s they arbitrary chose to script in fight where it’s just blind CC dumping fest. Big deal having a damage over time that doesn’t actually do damage over time because defiance bars have only a small time window accounting for 1% of the fight.

To learn said knowledge you need effort. I’m not dismissing PvE in the least. It’s hard to find people that really know what they are doing in PvE.

Defining what high end PvE actually is it’s an interesting topic but with a really broad scope better suited for the “Fractals, Dungeons & Raids” sub forum.

sadly…not in optimal groups…..and never will, unless: chill has some “slowing” effect on bosses……massive boon removal/corruption becomes necessary…..or a passive damage-soaking tank becomes necessary (damage too consistently delivered for “active defense” to be effective).

that said…it is a pretty awesome soloing class.

The worst thing about PvE is the scripted attacks from over-powered Necro minions that masquerade as bosses and wander around, immune to everything but damage, using two or three skills whenever they are off of cool-down.

It is no wonder players just dps them while special skills useful in WvW and PvP are of little value. Who needs strategy when standing on a button, stealthing on by, stacking, jumping, and blasting might is all it takes to win?

Current boss AIs dodge or counter attack about as well as a Jagged Horror.

One thing that did come to mind today is that Reaper (and Necro in general, really) does have one odd bit of desirable functionality for the Vale Guardian fight. There are circles that appear that you need to stand in. The more bodies in that circle when it ends, the less damage you take from the follow-up attack.

These don’t have to be player bodies. Minions can be used as well. On top of that, at least in the Vale Guardian fight, the boss and NPC’s don’t seem to attack minions much at all. My Flesh Golem was up for the majority of the fight. There are also adds that spawn in the fight, and, although they are largely ignored due to slow movement and melee range, they will let Reaper shouts (including Rise!) scale up.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

One thing that did come to mind today is that Reaper (and Necro in general, really) does have one odd bit of desirable functionality for the Vale Guardian fight. There are circles that appear that you need to stand in. The more bodies in that circle when it ends, the less damage you take from the follow-up attack.

These don’t have to be player bodies. Minions can be used as well. On top of that, at least in the Vale Guardian fight, the boss and NPC’s don’t seem to attack minions much at all. My Flesh Golem was up for the majority of the fight. There are also adds that spawn in the fight, and, although they are largely ignored due to slow movement and melee range, they will let Reaper shouts (including Rise!) scale up.

If that is indeed not a mistake, Minion Necro + Turret Engi = duo every lightning field while throwing range damage on the boss. I have a feeling that will change though.

Charblaze.6958:

@Cogbyrn: Please read the first post. This topic is raising and discussing the following concerns:

• Defiance bars are creating a massive functionality overlap between soft CC and hard CC.
• Reaper brings chill and damage.
• Chill has the same value as any other CC available to all professions.
• Reaper damage is good, but other professions are equally good while bringing more support.
• Base necro has little support and what it has isn’t in high demand.
• Our other debuffs have little or no value by design in PvE.
• Reaper’s spot in raids is in jeopardy because his signature functionality (chill) becomes a featureless commodity against defiant bars.

If you are wondering where Necro/Reaper is fitting in a party composition for it’s defiance DoT, well they aren’t. As the beta showed us the defiance bar is immune for 99% of the fight and when it’s available it melts in seconds. Really there is no strategy/management to defiance bars. In my opinion they are more boring than the current system and taking away even more power from the players. A shortcut to outright erase and forget control and disables from PvE except for 10s they arbitrary chose to script in fight where it’s just blind CC dumping fest. Big deal having a damage over time that doesn’t actually do damage over time because defiance bars have only a small time window accounting for 1% of the fight.

To learn said knowledge you need effort. I’m not dismissing PvE in the least. It’s hard to find people that really know what they are doing in PvE.

Defining what high end PvE actually is it’s an interesting topic but with a really broad scope better suited for the “Fractals, Dungeons & Raids” sub forum.

If Reapers are supposed to be the part of the group that razes down the Defiance Bar by design, then I think that’s really terrible role design. Also, the fact that the soft-CC conditions have little to no other value could just be a factor of the design of the first boss they showed, the simple 10-man example to see how people thought it felt.

I think it’s valid feedback to say “The Defiance Bar feels like a really boring mechanic”, because hopefully ANet will take that and ensure they actually design interesting mechanics that could utilize said conditions.

With respect to damage comparisons, this game is in desperate need of a damage meter system for proper evaluation. So many statements made on the forums about damage and support are anecdotal and contradictory. If Reaper brings about as much damage as another class, but that other class brings more “support”, is that difference in support going to make or break the kill? What is the difference in support? Will it actually matter at all?

It’s the conclusion that a Reaper’s spot in a raid is in jeopardy that I think forces the conversation to evolve. Sure, the Defiance Bar seems really boring. If Reaper is designed to be a major “Defiance Bar Killer”, then something will have to change, but that roll also seems ludicrous given the insane amount of conditions that fly around. I agree with that.

But does that really then conclude that the Reaper’s spot in a raid is in jeopardy? I’m just not sold, but then again, I’m not sure what the raid in which the Reaper’s spot is in jeopardy is trying to actually accomplish, which is why I was trying to figure out the goals of said high-end PvE raiding group.

@Drarnor Kunoram: Can you reliably position minions if the guardian isn’t over the circle?

Indeed I’ve summoned a lot of minions with Raise! thanks to the AoE healing keeping them alive but they helped only by keeping me alive (which is good). I wonder if further testing can find more uses for them in a boss fight.

Consider this. Raid is so hard that it takes a high level of skill just to survive so it is normal for entire parties to wiped out often. Necro is last one standing and then uses Shroud 4 to teleport the downed team, then uses signet of Undeath to rez everyone at the same time. This is something only the necromancer can do. The only problem is content has not been hard enough to need something like this.

Charblaze.6958:

@Drarnor Kunoram: Can you reliably position minions if the guardian isn’t over the circle?

Indeed I’ve summoned a lot of minions with Raise! thanks to the AoE healing keeping them alive but they helped only by keeping me alive (which is good). I wonder if further testing can find more uses for them in a boss fight.

Only way to position them on the circle if the boss isn’t next to it (it usually meanders over anyway as your entire group stacks on it) is to not be attacking when you pop Rise!. The horrors will all spawn at those you hit, then race back to you if you don’t use any offensive skills.

It’s a weird bit of utility tailored specifically to that fight, but I’ll take it.

Cogbyrn.7283:

If Reaper brings about as much damage as another class, but that other class brings more “support”, is that difference in support going to make or break the kill? What is the difference in support? Will it actually matter at all?

Yes it does matter, it’s how the current meta works. PS warrior has lower personal dps but it’s support boosts the party dps much more than what you lose by having him. I can 100% guarantee you that if Herald isn’t nerfed it’ll be mandatory for every raid due to the support given by 90% protection up-time. The herald allowed the raid to disregard defensive stats and keep wearing zerk gear. That’s how strong and wanted support is in this game.

Cogbyrn.7283:

But does that really then conclude that the Reaper’s spot in a raid is in jeopardy? I’m just not sold, but then again, I’m not sure what the raid in which the Reaper’s spot is in jeopardy is trying to actually accomplish, which is why I was trying to figure out the goals of said high-end PvE raiding group.

The goal for the majority of the player base is clearing the content in the most reliable and timely fashion. Party support really helps achieving that.

I wasn’t trying to compare the support of Reaper to what appear to be the two best supports you can bring to PvE. And this game really needs meters, because I have a really difficult time believing anything anyone says on these forums about how much damage classes do, or how much support classes bring. It’s nothing against the people, but humans are too easily biased, and data analysis is a difficult skill to master.

And if the goal is to clear content as quickly as possible, I wouldn’t be surprised if multiple classes are left out. I can’t help but feel like all classes being able to complete the content as part of the group is ANet’s goal for PvE balance. Otherwise, do you expect representation from all 9 classes in a 10-person group designed to complete the content as quickly as possible, given the variety of builds/utility/etc. each class can potentially bring? Providing feedback to try to ensure a class isn’t totally left behind is definitely a valuable exercise, but if you’re arguing for a meta/goal that doesn’t agree with the developer’s, you might be setting yourself up for sadness.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Charblaze.6958:

@Drarnor Kunoram: Can you reliably position minions if the guardian isn’t over the circle?

Indeed I’ve summoned a lot of minions with Raise! thanks to the AoE healing keeping them alive but they helped only by keeping me alive (which is good). I wonder if further testing can find more uses for them in a boss fight.

Only way to position them on the circle if the boss isn’t next to it (it usually meanders over anyway as your entire group stacks on it) is to not be attacking when you pop Rise!. The horrors will all spawn at those you hit, then race back to you if you don’t use any offensive skills.

It’s a weird bit of utility tailored specifically to that fight, but I’ll take it.

I have to admit, “Bring cold bodies,” would be a bit of original design thinking on the part of developers. Bringing pets, elementals, clones, spirits, minions, and maybe even banners, turrets, a guild of thieves, or war parties to stack the odds is a bizarre but at least unusual PvE tactic.

Maybe the only place where pets are viable in gw2 :p

We may be onto something. You had to body block blue damaging orbs (1.5-2k) because if they hit the boss he would gain boons. With 12 shambling horrors you may have enough bodies to block all the orbs. Raise! could be an hilarious and unexpected form of support.

But I wouldn’t place all my hopes in Raise! since it will be likely nerfed. A kitten greedy youtuber posted a video were he abused the Kylo map to summon minions out of combat, kept them alive with a druid friend, amassing an army of more than two dozen minions. I hope they make the sensible choice to not nerf Raise! but cap the number or minions only in PvP (and WvW if necessary). :-/

From what i’ve seen about this first raid boss, necros are not necessary and can be easily replaced. I wish the others bosses have mechanics that make necros really wanted.
Like a consistent boon removal. We can have that every 5 sec with RS#2.

Lynnie.7213:

From what i’ve seen about this first raid boss, necros are not necessary and can be easily replaced. I wish the others bosses have mechanics that make necros really wanted.
Like a consistent boon removal. We can have that every 5 sec with RS#2.

Mesmer can have that with their auto attack…

The only way boon removal would benefit the Necro would be if a boss got 5+ boons at the same time every 30 seconds.

Atherakhia.4086:

Lynnie.7213:

From what i’ve seen about this first raid boss, necros are not necessary and can be easily replaced. I wish the others bosses have mechanics that make necros really wanted.
Like a consistent boon removal. We can have that every 5 sec with RS#2.

Mesmer can have that with their auto attack…

The only way boon removal would benefit the Necro would be if a boss got 5+ boons at the same time every 30 seconds.

If I read it correctly, Mesmers can strip 1 boon with Sword Auto every 1.5 seconds (is there any aftercast? I just used the cast times.) If that’s the max they can do via Sword Auto, then one of the boons is going to last 3 seconds, unless the Mesmer perfectly times the application of boons and prepares the 3rd attack in the chain for when they land.

If something like 25 stacks of Might lasts for 3 seconds every 10 seconds, that could completely wreck the team. If the boss has Protection for 3 out of every 10 seconds, that could severely limit DPS to put the group behind. Path of Corruption would clear both at once.

If Mesmers can trait their sword auto to strip 2 boons per chain, then it’s different. However, no one ever shares details, just sob stories about how class X can do Y, regardless of how the interaction would actually take place in a fight.

Well that’s what a wiki is for…

They remove 1 boon every 2.5 seconds. Most encounters this is enough as bosses tend not to spam boons. The class also has alternative ways to boonstrip if need be. Plus there’s the added benefit of multiple mesmers etc.

Like I said, in encounters where a boss gains tons of boons instantly on a regular interval, the Necro is great. Not so much when boons trickle in like they currently do.