Guild Wars 2

I’m talking about my personal experience.
Once professions were announced, I’ve decided to play as a Necromancer because I liked the concept behing the profession and the profession mechanic itself.
Then, after the game came out, I’ve created my Necro an keep playing it for a considerable amount of time, in both PvE and in PvP.

At that time, I’ve never tried another profession neither looked at the forum.
When I’ve played PvP, I always felt that it was really challenging and sometimes it fell also into being frustrating because of how hard it was. Well, what matters? Keep practice and get better, in fact it is considered a competitive mode for a reason. I came from the Guild Wars PvP environment, where fights were less frenetic and more reflective compared to Guild Wars 2 PvP, so I blamed that difference as being the reason I felt that hard to getting better in Guild Wars 2.

Then I jumped on the forum, seeing all the complains on Necro being too weak.
So I said myself, is Necro that weak? I’ve never considered that as an option. So I created a dummy Thief and tried it out, because it was the second profession on my scale of preference.

Believe or not, I felt that PvP was a completely different mode. I kept killing people with ease, without worrying about timing dodges and interrupts, just using my skill as I felt and then vanish in stealth when things were going wrong. Seeing those kind of damage numbers I’ve never seen on my Necro was quite surprising.

I had two different conclusions: either Thief was too strong or Necro was too weak. Looking at the forum about the complains about Thieves, I’ve came to the conclusion that Thieves were just overpowered and Necros were fine.

Than I tried Warrior. Well, the result was quite the same as a Thief.
I’ve then tried the Guardian, the Mesmer and the Ranger intensively. All those professions performed way better than my Necro did despite the fact that I was completely inexperienced into playing those professions.

Did it mean that 5 professions out of 8 are overpowered? I don’t think so.
Did it mean that I was completely negated to play Necro? Well, quite hard to believe considering that I performed better on 5 other different professions.

The only possible conclusion was that Necros are weak. Than I’ve tried to figure out the reason behind that, pointing out what Necro is lacking compared to other professions and I’ve listed it in the first page of this topic plus a considerable amount of topics in this forum.

You’re free to believe that Necros are fine, but I don’t think you would think so if you tried other professions after you have sticked on Necro for a considerable amount of time.

The main problem with necros as I see it, is that most have lousy builds. I have one that completed the world and many times, i see Guardians, Eles, and the rest die next to my necro in group events. I have a necro with 2 knives maxed for speed and hi power damage and take veterans in 80 zones often all by myself. The build is key and how you use your traits as well. I use scepter and horn for a secondary set. Since the scepter has been fixed, it works even better. I go anywhere without any minions.
So It is possible to have a powerful Necro, and maybe it is not for everyone, either.

Definitely, Sorrow, you don’t know what you talk about. I also have a ranger, guardian, engineer, ele. My Necro and Ranger have the best survavibility.
From one that has “Been there, Done that.” with that necro, I can assure you that I know what I talk about.

@Cybil Song

I doubt people are complaining about PvE necro.

Cybil Song.2359:

The main problem with necros as I see it, is that most have lousy builds. I have one that completed the world and many times, i see Guardians, Eles, and the rest die next to my necro in group events. I have a necro with 2 knives maxed for speed and hi power damage and take veterans in 80 zones often all by myself. The build is key and how you use your traits as well. I use scepter and horn for a secondary set. Since the scepter has been fixed, it works even better. I go anywhere without any minions.
So It is possible to have a powerful Necro, and maybe it is not for everyone, either.

Definitely, Sorrow, you don’t know what you talk about. I also have a ranger, guardian, engineer, ele. My Necro and Ranger have the best survavibility.
From one that has “Been there, Done that.” with that necro, I can assure you that I know what I talk about.

I obviously wasn’t talking about PvE as Kardiamond pointed out.
It is quite hard to complain about Necros in PvE to be honest, at least when talking about survivability.

So my Necro is almost 80…… I hit level 79 in WvW this morning … and I hate it more than ever.

I stuck it out because I thought things would get better, and there were occasional plateaus of slight effectiveness, but I am still here frustrated with almost everything about the profession.

By far, PVE is the worst. By myself it takes four or five times as long for me to kill anything than it does on any of my other professions. My life is fighting respawns right after I just gone done burning all my cooldowns to kill the original mobs. Unless I spend 3/4 of my time in DeathShroud spamming 1 I usually get the crappy credit on world events/bosses. Forget 98% of my possible skills, just hope you can keep up with the actually effective professions and get enough damage in before the targets burst down. All that work for a silver medal, thanks. Drop a mark or well and your target just walks or is shoved out of it before it’s even done casting. Why bother? The number of times I’ve wasted cooldowns on targets that aren’t even there anymore is huge. I’m not even interested in 90% of the world events I come across anymore, because I know I won’t be able to complete them. Maybe this is exacerbated by the fact that the world outside Lions Arch is completely empty. I got to the 70-75 and 75-80 zones last night, been in them about six hours total now, and still haven’t seen another player. I actually backtracked from the 75-80 zone because it was just too stupidly lethal; even at 79, a 76 mob can kick my kitten just because I can’t get enough damage done to the thing before it wears out all my options. I see a Veteran or tougher and I just run.

The one thing it sort of shines at, is average quality group player vs player support.
I can put out very low to average aoe/group damage to set up the professions that actually can do decent damage to get kills(that I usually don’t even get credit for), I put out average to below average group heals on a long cooldown. I can once in a very great while (due to huge cooldowns) put out average direct damage. I am usually the guy rezzing people because I’m still up because of the large HP pool. I can annoy people behind doors. I can annoy people on walls. I can run through uncoordinated groups and live because of the health pool, sometimes. I can go Plague and blind and cripple a small group of players for a short time until I’m CC’d/locked down easily by most other classes. The best thing I can do is drop Well of Corruption and hope somebody is stupid enough to stand in it. Which doesn’t happen often. Marks are pretty much useless except versus the most gormless derping near-afk player. Still wondering why their location is drawn for the enemy player, at all. Thieves get magicial invisibility that doesn’t break on damage or even show damage numbers, but I get big neon sign-like traps that scream ‘evade now’ or ‘walk calmly around this and kill that idiot necro’…

Go ahead and say learn to play, whatever. There’s just nothing fun about endless running and dodging and chipping away at an enemies health in tiny increments with easily dodged or mitigated skills.

You could scale all of the damage output of every skill of this profession by 25% and that would just be a start. Some skills need double the damage output to not be a waste of a slot. DeathShroud is a joke, I can empty an entire lifeforce bar into a same level enemy and still have to spend another half a minute chipping away at the last half of the enemies health with every other skill I have.

Obviously this all applies to skirmish-type pvp encounters.

1. Targeting marks out in the open is ridiculously hard against a remotely competent player. Between trying to avoid their often big attacks and target a mark for them to walk into (even wasting points on that increased area and unblockable mark trait) you have to have rubber fingers to pull it off consistently. Meanwhile, other classes are all fire-and-forget or just equip a greatsword and hammer your face on 3 when you’re in the general vicinity of the enemy or disappear and run away or spawn a ton of allies. You have to watch the entire area like a HAWK and constantly predict every enemy’s movement to do effective damage as a necro.

2. Death Shroud is normally beyond useless and can often simply be ignored. The damage is crap and it rarely adds more than 3 or 4 seconds of survival IF you don’t just get CC’ed. Aside from mass-killing illusions and getting an extra fear skill it’s mostly useless.

3. Our downed skills are beyond crap. It sure is awesome fighting a ranger also in a downed state and watching them heal AND damage you at the same time or trying to follow a thief around as he blinks here and there. But no, that one dinky little fear that has never once given a single necro in pvp an actual chance (well, unless you have someone dumb enough to stand there with almost no health trying to finish you) sure is great.

That said, I come into this thread having just dropped three other players one after another right in a row with no healing in between fights by myself in Temple.

Because the Necromancer is WoW’s warlock all over again: if you do everything EXACTLY PERFECT you are an unstoppable killing machine.

But if you make even one little slip, miss one mark, or don’t hit the dodge at just the right split-second, you are an ugly little goo spot on some heavy armor wearer’s boot.

Easy to play, almost impossible to master, and almost impossible to win in pvp with mastery.

@ black regent

have you ever seen Life Burst crit with a power build? Or how about the aoe stacks of bleed from Life Transfer, or the DS 2-3 combo?

If one gets 3-4 sec of survival from DS, traited for it or not, in the words of Point Break, you’re doing it wrong Roach.

also, with the greater marks trait, it’s virtually impossible to miss your marks on moving targets. and they cant be blocked. DS can be used both for tanking and dps’ing.

sorrow.2364:

You’re free to believe that Necros are fine, but I don’t think you would think so if you tried other professions after you have sticked on Necro for a considerable amount of time.

Necros are comparable. And you have to qualify what you mean: PvE (solo, groups, dungeons, etc), sPvP, WvW (seiges, roaming, camps, etc), etc.

In fact, my experience is the opposite of yours: having read the over-the-top complaining in this forum, I started with a Mesmer, got him to around 20 and was bored, so tried an Engineer, got him to mid-20’s and wasn’t bored but wanted to try something else, tried an Elementalist and loved him, got him to almost 60 and said, “Hmmm, there are some reasonable voices on the Necro forums, and I’ve seen that Engineers, Elementalists, and Thieves all complain about being pigeonholed, only having a single spec that is viable (usually meaning in PvP), etc., so I think I will try a Necro.”

So I tried the Necro and have LOVED it. Way more toughness than an Elementalist. Way more fun than a Thief. In fact, I just deleted my Mesmer and started a Guardian to see how the other half lives. (I also have a Thief that I will eventually take to 80, along with my ELementalist and Necro. Not sure about the Engineer, not sure about the Guardian. Sure it won’t be a Mesmer. Probably not a Warrior or Ranger.)

Anyhow, in PvE the Necro is most certainly comparable to any other profession. With the exception that Guardians and Warriors are better-constructed than any of the other professions. I don’t PvP much, so I can’t say, but I have seen discussions by reasonable folks in the Necro community who do well. And a good PvP’er actually knows the other professions very well, since they need to get in their heads and anticipate what they’re going to do.

So in PvE, Warriors/Guardians have fewer issues and a more coherent design. In PvP, Warriors, Guardians, and Thieves are probably overpowered. (Or are proper-powered, and the other professions are underpowered.)

Yes, Necros perhaps have the most rough edges, since fairly substantial profession mechanic changes were made as late as Beta.

PolarApe.9351:

So my Necro is almost 80…… I hit level 79 in WvW this morning … and I hate it more than ever.

Blah blah blah..

If you’re “running from veterans”, missing your marks, having a generally bad experience in PvE, then I really have to say you’re one bad Necro. It would help if you would share your build.

I use hybrid gear, and have no problem in PvE. I can solo an event chain in Straits of Devastation involving three Champions and an Eye of Zhaitan without going down. Mobs in these areas are definitely harder to kill, so if you dont fight wisely you will die. That said, dont expect to kill anything using DS autoattack if you’re not a Berseker/Valkyrie build. I use DS to soak up damage because it’s a freely replenishable resource (that refills in %, not numbers like HP, so there’s no such thing as “effective healing”).

If your marks arent landing, it’s not a Necro problem. I mean, if you take a few steps back from 100b, it doesnt hit you. Walk out of a meteor shower, it doesnt hit you. Any spin-to-win, get out of range it wont hit you. Honestly, you just need to predict better, and use Greater Marks to help you too. I dont know what’s there to complain about..

In WvW the marks are indispensable. By the end of two large scale encounters (such as attacking or defending an objective), I can usually get all 25 stacks on my Corruption sigil. I dont do bursty damage, but I wither everyone down that when the fight starts, they only have half their life remaining. If the enemy is defending, anyone who is dying will be running to the back to regenerate. In that time, they’re not AOEing the gate and my forces, so I greatly support my team/server and squishy friends. Thief stealth stomp is easily stopped with Staff #5. After he’s feared, Staff #2 him to keep him occupied, Staff #3 to keep him at a distance while you res your team mate (when feared, he runs directly away from you so you can easily predict where he’ll be). Really, the list just goes on and on.

I’m sorry for being so blunt, but really dude, if playing your Necro to 80 hasnt taught you how to utilise your skills and fight effectively, I dont know what will.

Edit: That solo chain.. is done with abusing LOS or anything. It’s legit fighting.

Black Regent.5897:

Obviously this all applies to skirmish-type pvp encounters.

1. Targeting marks out in the open is ridiculously hard against a remotely competent player. Between trying to avoid their often big attacks and target a mark for them to walk into (even wasting points on that increased area and unblockable mark trait) you have to have rubber fingers to pull it off consistently.

Not sure what you mean. Do you mean it’s hard to drop a Mark at all while moving, or to try to anticipate where someone’s going and drop it there?

I think Marks are very flexible: target anywhere, including behind you, instant cast, instant hit, and traited the are large and unblockable. It’s just an added bonus that they can be pre-placed like a trap.

I’ll admit I’m not much of a PvP’er, though I do use a multi-button mouse and a Logitech G13 pad, which may help avoid “rubber fingers”.

“Instant cast” is a bit of a stretch, #2 has a 0.5s cast time, #3 is 0.25s (from memory, may be wrong). Anything around 0.2s could be considered instant cast because the average human response time is 0.2 – 0.25s.

Edit: I thought there was some talk about the marks being blockable despite traiting because it’s bugged?

One more thing regarding damage output of conditionomancers in PvE using scepter and staff – It takes about 6-8s to reach your max bleed stacks, but once you do it’s lovely. Assuming your bleeds tick for 100 damage (as an average number – mine can reach 150), you’re doing 2k damage per second (I get 20 stacks on average).

“That does not seem much”, you say. Given I’m able to upkeep this 20 stacks on a Vet or Champion, one Epidemic later, all the little minions are melting away at 2k/s. And I can do that every 12s (traited).

Tell me which profession can do that from 900 range.

Nickczh.6341:

PolarApe.9351:

So my Necro is almost 80…… I hit level 79 in WvW this morning … and I hate it more than ever.

Blah blah blah..

If you’re “running from veterans”, missing your marks, having a generally bad experience in PvE, then I really have to say you’re one bad Necro. It would help if you would share your build.
<bunch of other good and reasonable advice was here>

.

I get it, I have to play it a certain way to be effective. Been talking to people in game and getting more info and advice. Got some great builds people have linked me, etc etc.

Problem is, looking at the builds/options… I hate playing the character that way. I like the way I’ve learned to play it – which was effective up until the 40s-50s. There’s the problem maybe – Necros are inflexible. So I still think I’m abandoning the Necro ship. Maybe not because it’s sinking, but definitely because I think it’s a not the ship I want.

If I get another profession to 80 and it’s also another case of ‘you can only pick one or two builds and all the other stuff is junk’ I’m probably done with GW2.

PolarApe.9351:

I hate playing the character that way.

Translation: I hate playing games (which are just complex organizations of rules) by the rules those games are made of.

Has it never occurred to you that you don’t want to play a Necro. Rather than trying to turn a Necro into Polly Prissy Pants so you can have a tea party, how about you diversify your experience catalog a little bit and get back to us.

PolarApe.9351:

I get it, I have to play it a certain way to be effective. Been talking to people in game and getting more info and advice. Got some great builds people have linked me, etc etc.
<omitted text>
If I get another profession to 80 and it’s also another case of ‘you can only pick one or two builds and all the other stuff is junk’ I’m probably done with GW2.

It’s fair to say you don’t like the Necro style (or builds as have been identified), just as there are different game genres – RPG, FPS etc. But to say that “Necros are inflexible” is unfair to the rest of us, especially players who are interested in trying the profession (which is the whole point of the OP). You will need to elaborate and justify.

does someone do high level fractal with his necro and give me a constructiv feedback please. I am currently working on a fractal build for high (15+) level of fractal and help would be welcome. Thanks

KirinDave.6451:

Engineers are in desperate need of a rework because many of their mechanics seem poorly considered (you think minions are bad? Try turrets!).

So: relax. Necromancer is not the worst off of the bunch, and no one is pretending they don’t need soem dev love. But the extremism you’re resorting two only makes the devs less likely to listen to you. And remember that this game is actually 3 games in one; PvE, PvP, and Wv3. Getting every class balanced in every field will take time.

Now hold up, engineer turrets aren’t worse than necromancer minions. At least the turrets can be spread out so they aren’t killed by the same single AOE, regen their own health (when traited), can be blown up for a blast finisher+damage, and even give you abilities to use when the turret is dead. Minions on the other hand pile up to eat a single AOE and then are all put on cooldown for 16-45 seconds (depending on the minion) removing a large portion of your damage without any consolation (I mean they don’t even give LF when they die for goodness sakes).

Also you can’t use WvWvW as an argument for balance as WvWvW isn’t meant to be balanced. sPvP and PvE are relatively easy to balance as long as Anet holds the [split for PvP and PvE] key.

@Striker

And turret AI is ok, not like our minions.

Flesh Worm has the same AI then engin turret, and I have no problem with it.

Sure turret are bit lack luster, but that’s a balancing issue, not a bug that make them unplayable.

Look, it’s getting very difficult to pull the separate arguements together back to the original topic, or point of the OP.

Minions are crap.
Some of our traits suck, or are bunk.
In PvP, Conditionmancer>Hybrid>powermancer. Some people are mad at this.
Necro isn’t easy to play, and isn’t as easy to make into a god like thief/war

But the class is far from broken, period. None of those things above make the class unplayable, or total junk compared to other classes. Don’t use minions, Don’t use the gluttony minor, and figure out when to anticipate popular moves (seriously, it isn’t a l2p thread, if we’re complaining we can’t 100b or CD/backstab/HS someone to death, you’d think millions of people would get smart to it and learn to avoid it by now)

As for PvP, which many players are pissed at because they bought GW2 to play the PvP as an “e-sport”, congratulations, most successful players rely on super hyped DPS or nothing builds to take out people. In a 5v5 where most of the players are really close to being total glass cannons, a non-glass build will only lead to death. That’s the gist of it. Even with a good staff guardian or D/D thief, you can pretty much stack on them and down them pretty quick.

I know lots of people are going to hate this, and will fight tooth and nail to say otherwise, but is nowhere near as bad as you think it is.

Someone said much earlier…

People who are satisfied with the class don’t come on the forums to praise it, or try to share their success. People come to the forums when they’re dissatisfied with something and need to verbally express their shortcomings with it.

There will always be people dissatisfied with their class. There is no such thing as perfection in an MMO (But this gets pretty kitten close, and will only get better over the years) (also, this doesn’t mean we’re excusing the failures as OKAY matters)

But in the end, the real problem is, we have a Necromancer subforum that is mainly made up of posts raging against the class, probably more so than any other subforum, and it needs to stop.

ANet kindly advised and requested players used the forums constructively to benefit other players who come to this sub to either figure out if they want to play a necro (which they should, they are one of the most fun imho) or if they need help with their necro.

Imagine if you’re one of those players, either new or experienced, who comes on here and sees a jumbled mess of “we are trash” threads. I really, truly, do not want that to be our outwards appearance to players coming to GW2.

Because the fact of the matter is, a class with more players playing it gets the attention of the developers first. (doesn’t mean they only work on those classes) but they get to those first. If we drive people away, claim EVERYTHING we have is total bunk, and fill the majority of the forums with claims that is how we are, we will lose our playerbase, lose respect (people will assume we are useless… which is not true at all!), and developers will be less keen to comb through this subforum to pick out constructive insight and suggestion as to how to change or improve the class without unbalancing the 1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1 battle we’re going through.

As a separate P.S, my guildmates have told me they NEVER reveal their successful builds or strategies in public. They stay away from forums because once you learn how to win with your class (after a lot of losing like everyone else) you don’t want to give it away, or waste the time to explain it to people.

many of my irl friends who play GW2 and are really strong fans of the game itself absolutely shun the forums in general because they too have told me “It is filled with whiny little ******* that don’t want to get better” I don’t share this sentiment. There are a good portion of people who want to share their knowledge and are good players.

There have been a lot of impressive builds and footage posted in this forum (go through a few pages and find them) that showcase different strategies, and different styles of necromancers. They show really impressive cases of the necro winning, and they weren’t done by absolute mistake or by playing against a crappy player.

The best players learn from their own mistakes and try to learn how to make themselves better. For me, I have tested each of those builds which have found some amount of success and I’ve already figured it out for myself. I don’t come on here to post “L2P” threads. Nor do I come on here to call people idiots and that they don’t know what they’re doing at all.

But to go and post things as a community that only shows that some people just don’t know the strength of any aspect of the class… It’s frightening. There is a lack of positivity, and it has to change.

Druitt.7629:

Black Regent.5897:

Obviously this all applies to skirmish-type pvp encounters.

1. Targeting marks out in the open is ridiculously hard against a remotely competent player. Between trying to avoid their often big attacks and target a mark for them to walk into (even wasting points on that increased area and unblockable mark trait) you have to have rubber fingers to pull it off consistently.

Not sure what you mean. Do you mean it’s hard to drop a Mark at all while moving, or to try to anticipate where someone’s going and drop it there?

I think Marks are very flexible: target anywhere, including behind you, instant cast, instant hit, and traited the are large and unblockable. It’s just an added bonus that they can be pre-placed like a trap.

I’ll admit I’m not much of a PvP’er, though I do use a multi-button mouse and a Logitech G13 pad, which may help avoid “rubber fingers”.

In PvP it’s easy to mark a player when you’re fighting them in an enclosed space because they have nowhere to go, but if you try to mark them in a wide-open area like the center of most of the maps while you’re also moving around they just walk around them unless they’re complete idiots. You can try and get it right on them as they’re moving but, again, unless they’re complete idiots they’re not just running in a straight line plus you have to be moving so most of the time it’s hit or miss. Rangers are the worst because they’re not only constantly moving but they’re constantly forcing you to be moving as they’re hammering on you.

Now compare this to a warrior who just has to be in your general vicinity to AoE you in the face with his greatsword. It’s an example of the level of detailed attention you have to pay while playing necro that you don’t have to pay while playing several other classes like Warrior and Guardian.

Marking in PvE is a no-brainer because the AI is dumb as a box of rocks. But against remotely competent players it’s a whole other story.

tehdirtyfivethirty.3507:

@ black regent

have you ever seen Life Burst crit with a power build? Or how about the aoe stacks of bleed from Life Transfer, or the DS 2-3 combo?

If one gets 3-4 sec of survival from DS, traited for it or not, in the words of Point Break, you’re doing it wrong Roach.

I assume you mean Life Blast, and yes, I’ve seen Life Blast’s huge critical potential, but when you’re popping DS in the middle of a fight where somebody is hammering on you and can wipe half of your Life Force bar out in a second you’re asking an awful lot of lady luck to not only get the LB shot off in time but also happen to have it crit. It’s not a reliable source of damage unless you manage to pull it off on an unsuspecting target, and we’re not talking about fighting people who are clueless. Wiping out clueless PvPers with a necromancer is easier than picking daisies with a backhoe.

Again, I refer you back to my point. It’s not that the POTENTIAL isn’t clearly there, it’s that it demands way too much of the player to exercise it compared to virtually every other class. On paper the necro is a perfectly playable PvP class, but in reality it just requires way too many things to go right to be reliable.

Black Regent.5897:

Now compare this to a warrior who just has to be in your general vicinity to AoE you in the face with his greatsword. It’s an example of the level of detailed attention you have to pay while playing necro that you don’t have to pay while playing several other classes like Warrior and Guardian.

Warriors and Guardians are generally understood to be the two classes in the best shape in the game, in all aspects of the game, so I’m not sure that’s exactly a fair comparison. I’m not sure that any of the other 6 classes measure up well when compared to Warriors and Guardians. Not to mention that they’re both melee classes, which will have almost entirely point-blank (character-centered) AoE as opposed to a caster class which will tend to have more ranged AoE combined with some point-blank AoE.

When I think of my Elementalist’s AoE, it seems to me that there are more cast-time skills while the Necro’s Marks are all instant-cast. I could be wrong in that recollection, but to be honest, if a non-Mark AoE misses your target, it’s simply going to waste itself on empty space but if a Mark misses your target it will at least linger on the ground and force some maneuvering.

Black Regent.5897:

Marking in PvE is a no-brainer because the AI is dumb as a box of rocks. But against remotely competent players it’s a whole other story.

If you’re comparing (ground-targeted) Mark AoE against non-ground-targeted AoE, Marks lose. But then so would the ground-targeted AoE skills of other casters. Target-centered AoE or caster-centered AoE are more fire-n-forget, of course, and maybe that’s what you’re talking about, but then again I’m not sure that Necros have more of that than other casters.

Knote.2904:

And yeah I think Plague Signet is fixed, was basically 1 random condition every 5 seconds. TBH I don’t think it’s that great considering it’s an aoe pulse.

If this is true, its quite a nice fix and I’d re-slot this in WvW.

Sheobix.8796:

Look, it’s getting very difficult to pull the separate arguements together back to the original topic, or point of the OP.

Minions are crap.
Some of our traits suck, or are bunk.
In PvP, Conditionmancer>Hybrid>powermancer. Some people are mad at this.
Necro isn’t easy to play, and isn’t as easy to make into a god like thief/war

But the class is far from broken, period.

We are a minion class, but are minions are crap.
Some of our traits suck but…
Conditionmancer is top on your list in PvP. (Suggesting our conditions are not crap, and you mentioned some traits suck separately from minions so some non-minion, non-condition traits are crap. That doesn’t leave much left… Even though your OP pointed out we are not just a DoT class or are affected by DoT cap)
Necro is not easy to play.

So we are… not broken… we are just not working?

I’m sorry, I’m missing the point of the OP as well…

Sheobix.8796:

People who are satisfied with the class don’t come on the forums to praise it, or try to share their success. People come to the forums when they’re dissatisfied with something and need to verbally express their shortcomings with it.

But in the end, the real problem is, we have a Necromancer subforum that is mainly made up of posts raging against the class, probably more so than any other subforum, and it needs to stop.

Actually, you are partially right. Classes that have significant issues are flooded with those issues. Classes that do not have significant issues are more often dominated by strategy discussions. One can easily see this is true by hopping over to, say, the thief forums and comparing it to the Necro forums.

Players should go onto the forums and speak their mind if they think the class is bunk. If the devs don’t respond, that is not the players fault and it is not up to the players to then ‘please shut up’.

If there is one truth to be taken out of EVERYONE speaking here is that the Necro forums are extremely negative about the state of the class. It is a shame that the response to this is to tell people to shut up, instead of addressing the issues with the class.

Whichever…

Anshard.3489:

We are a minion class, but are minions are crap.

Please go to ANet’s web page and actually read about the Necromancer. Minions are one sub-part of the second part of a two-part description. Of the five Necro videos on the page, only one even shows minions. We’re not “a minion class”. We are a class that has minions and we can make a heavily-minion-based build. Minions have serious AI problems that make this build a pain.

This is definitely worth mentioning and absolutely must be fixed by ANet. But it doesn’t break the class.

Anshard.3489:

Actually, you are partially right. Classes that have significant issues are flooded with those issues. Classes that do not have significant issues are more often dominated by strategy discussions. One can easily see this is true by hopping over to, say, the thief forums and comparing it to the Necro forums.

Um, no I read Elementalist, Thief, Mesmer, and Necromancer forums on a regular basis, since I enjoy all four professions. They are all full of complaints about being pigeonholed into a single viable build, that entire traitlines suck because either: a) the underlying mechanism sucks, or b) the traitlines are organized incorrectly.

The Necro forums have folks who are so emotionally attached to their Necro that they rant and rave and claim that all our traits suck, all our skills are broken, ANet is purposely holding the class back, no other classes have the problems we have, blah blah blah.

Anshard.3489:

Players should go onto the forums and speak their mind if they think the class is bunk. If the devs don’t respond, that is not the players fault and it is not up to the players to then ‘please shut up’.

Players who have reasonable arguments should make them. Players who claim the class is broken simply discourage devs from digging through the crap to find the useful comments and discourage reasonable non-Necros from trying Necros or even allowing them into parties. If you read through this thread, you’ll see examples of how this over-hyped over-negative emo stuff can so brand a class as to ruin it forever.

Anshard.3489:

If there is one truth to be taken out of EVERYONE speaking here is that the Necro forums are extremely negative about the state of the class. It is a shame that the response to this is to tell people to shut up, instead of addressing the issues with the class.

You’re saying that people are being told to shut up. What many of us are trying to say in this thread is that over-the-top, unqualified “We’re broken!!!!! SUXORS!!!” is wrong and destructive to the class. If you actually have experience with multiple professions and reasoned arguments, make them.

If you can’t make a reasoned and informed argument, then, well, shut up you’re just using up everyone else’s oxygen.

> So we are… not broken… we are just not working?

You’ve got to understand the language.

Well there’s no I-win button on a 28s cooldown = “I can’t actually refute or explain away the class comparison you just made, so I’ll just call you a button masher.”

Note how this formula doesn’t require the poster to explain what 3 buttons, or 9 buttons, or 257 necro buttons you need to press to win. Because it’s complicated and stuff.

Master the Death Shroud = More dodging than the class he’s defending possesses. At least his arguments have stability!

Look at other class boards, they complain too! Carefully avoids discussion of the relative validity of said complaints. Ranger complaint threads might be just a bit more justified than Warrior complaint threads, people!

Note: The above is never used alongside All these negative posts is the only reason why everyone isn’t a Necro!, lest someone with common sense ask why someone would flee Necro on seeing the complaint threads, then roll any other class, because they have complaint threads too. Apparently our threads have better fear duration than our class does.

The way I see it necro is about speed. Fast casting. Fast recharge. Fast moving. And with speed comes adaptability. Not to mention they have like 3 hp bars.

Necro also fights like a ninja. It is obvious what a thief is going to do: Invisible+backstab. I got a thief to level 70 and tbh only a portion of their skills are useful. Necros have a lot more choices.

Manticore Five.9867:

So we are… not broken… we are just not working?

You’ve got to understand the language.
…

Can you break this one down for me?

The entire NA meta is all about necromancers right now.

Mammoth.1975:

Manticore Five.9867:

So we are… not broken… we are just not working?

You’ve got to understand the language.
…

Can you break this one down for me?

The entire NA meta is all about necromancers right now.

Come on now. That’s a leap.

You see, this is exactly what I’m talking about.

Necro fights like a ninja, because it DOESN’T invis and backstab? Because as we all know, ninjas never go into stealth and they would never backstab anyone.

It’s true that mindless necro-haters exist, but they don’t compare with the literally demented will-to-believe found in mindless necro-boosters.

The point is you aren’t helping your cause by matching crazy hating with a triple-helping of your own crazy. People shopping for a class are more likely to be turned off by rampant dishonesty, so it’s better to let the opposition hold that distinction.

Manticore Five.9867:

You see, this is exactly what I’m talking about.

Necro fights like a ninja, because it DOESN’T invis and backstab? Because as we all know, ninjas never go into stealth and they would never backstab anyone.

It’s true that mindless necro-haters exist, but they don’t compare with the literally demented will-to-believe found in mindless necro-boosters.

The point is you aren’t helping your cause by matching crazy hating with a triple-helping of your own crazy. People shopping for a class are more likely to be turned off by rampant dishonesty, so it’s better to let the opposition hold that distinction.

I would highly advice you submit anything you wish to post on the internet to a 3rd party for, what I like to call the “Once Over”. Basically I tell them, tell me if this is stupid or not. Usually they will not let me post anything epically stupid, or weird and nonsensical to frame this context to a descriptive.

Cause what you said is surely in english. And I do speak and write english fairly well. But… I don’t meaning your understand. Popsicle Unicorn Rainbow.

This thread is anti-mindless necro hating
It now mindless necro excusing.
Lies are bad no matter who speak them.

You head no hurt now?

XiL.4318:

Come on now. That’s a leap.

Oh?

So after reading many posts on this specific topic, I’ve decided to speak up. After playing necro more than 800 hours I can say that I know this class very well. I know its weaknesses, I know its bugs and strengths. I’ve played GW1 for 7 years, and LOL for 4years, so I am not really new to PVP.

When people say necro is weak, up, broken I’m wondering what are they talking about. PVE,SPVP, WVW? Each class has to be played differently in each of these gametypes. There is not one build that is perfect for every dungeon or for every team composition. If you lack creativity and patience to test different builds, then you have chosen the wrong game. As in Guild Wars 1 you have to be able to adept to changes, situations, teammates and enemies. But let me be more specific.

Basics:

I will talk about pvp since I’ve come to realise that people like to compare classes to each other and whats a better place for that than SPVP. When I first looked at necro’s weapon skills, utility skills, healing skills and elite skills. The first thing that came to my mind was WOW necro has so much conditon and condition CONTROL!!!! I guess everyone knows by now that condition damage can not be reduced by stacking armor. It can only be removed, transferred or endured (can easily result in death). Well lets take a look which class can remove or transferr them the best. Oh wait its the necro! So wtf are we still talking about? The trait distribution is great in my opinoin. Curses gives you Precision and Condition dmg, Spite gives you power and condition duration? Are you kidding me? What more could a necro wish for? Crit dmg? I think its pretty clear that necro is not meant to be build for power. It can be built but I’m pretty sure its not the best way, since there are other classes for it with different trait setups, and utilities. Talking about traits, I’m sure everyone knows that necro has the biggest basic hp pool, which means you can trait full offensive. As a result of this with a well chosen gear, you can have around 19k hp 2700 armor over 50% crit really high attack power (depending on your build) and tremendous condition dmg. Traits like Target the weak and Furious demise bring these numbers up even more, not to mention your choice of utility skills.

Skills, Traits:

I am sure of it, that every class has its skills or traits that players consider to be OP. An example for necro is Putrid Mark on staff. To this day I think this is one the biggest OP bullkittenkill in this game. To be able to deal massive aoe dmg which is unblockable (death magic trait on 10, its a must!!!) and transfer all your and your teammates condition to the enemy is huge. Not to mention its a combo blast finisher which if used properly deal massive aeo weakness. People dont realise how important weakness is and it is one the necros biggest strength. Many aeo weakness! Half endurance regen, half dmg what more can you ask for. All in one skill. Consume condition as a heal skill is ridiculous. To be able to control that much condition and heal yourself over 13k is just way too funny. Another powerhouse of the necro is BIP. You have to first learn how to use that skill to its fullest. You can use the self bleed you get with your heal to get more heal, or transfer it to your enemy and give him 4 stacks of bleed instantly. You can do all this while earning 10 stacks of might which gives you both power and condition dmg, not to mention it also increases the DOT dmg you applied to your foe before this skill. If you dont have a target for this skill then you just get the might buffs. For elite skill I can highly recommend Plague. Its range is perfect for SPVP capping. Stability helps you stay in and not get knocked out. Huge HP boost and either tremendous aoe bleed, perma blind or even stacking up 20 secs of weakness to you foes in the area all this accompanied with some base dmg and perma poison. In general wells and marks are amazing while caping you can cover the whole place even from a huge distance (with marks of course). Necro has so many ways to infect the enemy with poison (even AOE) which reduce their heal effectiveness, and has so many utlities it can bring to a team I can hardly consider this class to be weak.

Anyway I am glad that I play necro and also that I have success with it both in PVE and PVP. I’ve never ever heard that a team does not need a necro, but one day I might. Till then I hope even more people missjudge thiss class, call it weak leading to it gettting even more buffs. Its a win-win situation for me, so keep the negative comments flood. The ones who mastered this class will benefit from it in the end, the others will still be kitten with it.

Still a ton of walls of text from casuals saying the class is fine.

My win rate in Tpvp pure puging is 30% higher on my mes then on my necro, thats a large gap and im still fairly new to mes while I have hundreds of games under by belt as a necro along with WvW farming, yet I’m doing much better on mes in tpvp.

Why? Its simple Mes has game changing power that wins maps I wont go into theory crafting detail what the mes and other classes bring that wins games because i dont think any of you casuals care about the details in tpvp. I will again say there is a reason Necro is so underplayed in Tpvp and its a low percentage of top teams setup.

Show a few hundred games on another class in a screen shot because right now I dont think all you saying Necros are fine have played other classes in Tpvp or Spvp much.

Xom.9264:

Still a ton of walls of text from casuals blah blah blah

I don’t think it’s in anyones best interests, let alone yours, for you to be belittling people dude.

Xom.9264:

Still a ton of walls of text from casuals saying the class is fine.

My win rate in Tpvp pure puging is 30% higher on my mes then on my necro, thats a large gap and im still fairly new to mes while I have hundreds of games under by belt as a necro along with WvW farming, yet I’m doing much better on mes in tpvp.

Why? Its simple Mes has game changing power that wins maps I wont go into theory crafting detail what the mes and other classes bring that wins games because i dont think any of you casuals care about the details in tpvp. I will again say there is a reason Necro is so underplayed in Tpvp and its a low percentage of top teams setup.

Show a few hundred games on another class in a screen shot because right now I dont think all you saying Necros are fine have played other classes in Tpvp or Spvp much.

Only a low % of top teams run necro.
Only % top teams run necro.
Top Teams run Necro.

kitten pants walk awkwardly away as to avoid unnecessary smearing on the inner pant leg.

Necro is extremely powerful in Tourny. Necro can control who has conditions and who has boons for more than long enough to end any coordinated team fight. The only thing Necro can’t do is use Minions or get fully scalled up Siphon Heals making both Top Burst, and Top Survive/Support outside the competitive ballpark for Necro at this time.

It is not nearly as bad as it seems. I can hunt and peck as well as any Thief using a Roamer Burst build, support Team fights from a safe distance with a Power/Condi Juggle build, or stack abilities that hit quickly and focus on our broken Siphon/Condi BiP that still manages to heal pretty well, and do significant damage as long as you have something to hit.

Yes there is plenty wrong with Necro, minions being kitten makes it seem even worse because Necro is supposed to summon minions, but things are not Ranger bad. Or Longbow Warrior bad.

Xom.9264:

Still a ton of walls of text from casuals saying the class is fine.

My win rate in Tpvp pure puging is 30% higher on my mes then on my necro, thats a large gap and im still fairly new to mes while I have hundreds of games under by belt as a necro along with WvW farming, yet I’m doing much better on mes in tpvp.

Why? Its simple Mes has game changing power that wins maps I wont go into theory crafting detail what the mes and other classes bring that wins games because i dont think any of you casuals care about the details in tpvp. I will again say there is a reason Necro is so underplayed in Tpvp and its a low percentage of top teams setup.

Show a few hundred games on another class in a screen shot because right now I dont think all you saying Necros are fine have played other classes in Tpvp or Spvp much.

Well there might be a few misunderstanding on your part sir. You state that I am casual though I mentioned how much time I ve put (sometimes feels like wasted) into gaming. I ve always been following pro gamers, watched their streams, learned from then. I ve never took part in Esports team, but to do that you have to be dedicated not to mention you need lots of support. I know how tournament works in Guild Wars 2. Since this is a topic about people saying necromancer is weak in general I ve replied to it accordingly. For example the mesmer which you hold so dearly is unable to farm in pve/WvW.

You state that your win rate is higher with mesmer than with necromancer. Its the opposit for me and for many other players I am sure of it. Sometimes people cant play certain things just because its not their style or either they dont know how to play it the best and they dont even want to know. But not being able to master a class doesn’t mean its useless or weak. If I have a bad win ratio with guardian does it make guardian a weak class? Saying that you have a low win ratio with Necro does not prove anything at all. Necromancer has gamechanging powers as well but people dont know how to use it in general, and thats the reason many think that its weak. I know I ll have hundreds even thousands of games with other classes in the future but till I feel happy to play a necromancer and I have succes with it, I dont really care people calling me casual or noob.

> I don’t think it’s in anyones best interests, let alone yours, for you to be belittling people dude.

Oh please. This thread, and those who lurk within, are all about belitting people who criticize necro, because that’s all they have.

Do you think “just because you want a I-win button” is a reasonable or logical criticism? No. It’s merely belittling the other person. Telling people that their negative posts are the reason people flee necro? More belittling. L2P? The whole reason for that phrase to exist is to belittle others while keeping your own posts safely content-free.

That’s far from a comprehensive list, because this thread’s main contribution to the necro discussion is to belittle people who have the “wrong” opinions.

Manticore Five.9867:

>

Oh please. This thread, and those who lurk within, are all about belitting people who criticize necro, because that’s all they have.

I think lot of people who favor playing necro gets belittled just because of that fact. But you can find it on any other thread so its not much of a big deal. Even necros disagree about some questions and that arguement often result in belittling each other.

Manticore Five.9867:

>

Do you think “just because you want a I-win button” is a reasonable or logical criticism? No. It’s merely belittling the other person. Telling people that their negative posts are the reason people flee necro?

I dont know whoever said people flee necro, because other player say its weak, but thats certainly amusing and ridiculous at the same time.

Manticore Five.9867:

>

More belittling. L2P? The whole reason for that phrase to exist is to belittle others while keeping your own posts safely content-free.

This thread is about warning people to keep an open mind and may be get other perspective about playing necro. I agree there are lots of comments content-free, but here and there you can find some usefull information which you can learn from. The “L2P” can be interpreted as an offensive statement, but I think its true. You have to L2P, your own class, other classes, everything. Even after hundreds of hours you can find new ways to play a certain class.

Manticore Five.9867:

>

That’s far from a comprehensive list, because this thread’s main contribution to the necro discussion is to belittle people who have the “wrong” opinions.

Its not about having wrong or right opinion, as I said before. Play the class you are comfortable with, and have success with it. You can never know what will be the new meta. You have to be innovative, and perceptive.

Valheru speaks very well for the point I’m trying to make. Its not my intention to make this a condescending “L2P” thread or to make excuses for our downfalls. I’ve addressed our problems accordingly.

But I am very uncomfortable with the fact that a large portion of new posters on the necro subforums spend more time knocking down the class instead of sharing positive and strong strategies and insight— more so than other subforums.

Talking is not doing.

Post your champion phantom tag Sheobix before you type L2P goes for alot of you.

For the record my condition Mesmer has smashed every single champion phantom I have played against. That’s not even considered the top Mesmer build but a tier 2 build. You think DS makes us ‘tanky’ lol you should see a Mesmer that does not spec glass cannon I have so many reset options on my Mes never taking damage in the first place is > extra HP.

Condition damage on my Mes is 1500 passive bleeds tick for 122-125 also have burning damage. Duelist bleeds on crit he stacks 5+ bleeds alone each attack cycle, thats just one ‘pet’, I wont waste anymore time I know the necro like the back of my hand and likely have more Tpvp wins on the necro then people arguing with me anyway.

If you think Necro is balance you flat out have not played Mesmer.

The casual pve and pvpers should be thanking people trying to get the Necro to a even playing field at high levels because someday you might want to play the class you main at a high level of PvP.

At least the class is moving in the right direction few bug fixing will put the class in a solid balanced spot.

Xom.9264:

Talking is not doing.

Post your champion phantom tag Sheobix before you type L2P goes for alot of you.

For the record my condition Mesmer has smashed every single champion phantom I have played against. That’s not even considered the top Mesmer build but a tier 2 build. You think DS makes us ‘tanky’ lol you should see a Mesmer that does not spec glass cannon I have so many reset options on my Mes never taking damage in the first place is > extra HP.

<omitted text>

At least the class is moving in the right direction few bug fixing will put the class in a solid balanced spot.

How well do you fight without your “so many reset options”? I’ve heard someone mention it before in the Necromancer forums that the profession requires more skill to play even at a basic level. We need to be of a certain level of mastery (skills both self and opponent’s) before we can be successful.

In this way, it punishes the casual players (the bulk of GW2 players, I would assume) because you don’t have shield blocks/invul like Warriors, Guardians and Engineers, no stealth/teleport like Thiefs and Mesmers, no mistform/rapid mobility like Eles, and evasive maneuvers like rangers (the flesh wurm doesnt count). There’s no way to charge into battle with a zerg headfirst, and have a guaranteed retreat option. How many times have I downed Elementalists only to have them mistform back into their group? Thiefs, who stealth and pull back from the fight, only to come back full health and harass you?

Necro has no options like that, so it takes a lot more skill to master. This could be interpreted to us being UP or “broken” (as cited numerously), or that other classes are “so much better”. I’m not suggesting this as an idea for improvement, but imagine if we had a DS #5 that gave us invulnerability for 3s.. would people still be complaining (bugs aside)?

PS: Dont miss the point. I’m not saying the solution is invulnerability/block skills, I’m saying that there’s no easy “reset” option for Necros that makes it difficult to recover if one makes a mistake. I am saying that the profession is the least forgiving out of all.

A tanky build is a tanky build, I agree. But for the Valkyrie Warrior, “Fat Heavy Ninja” Guardian, “Medicat” Engineer and “Wild Bill” Thief – how well do you think they could fight without their blocks, invulnerability, teleports and stealth? It just sucks that our “oh-kitten-button” (<— commonly interpreted purpose of DS) doesnt grant invulnerability/blocks.

Again, dont miss the point. See above.

PS: No hate against the above mentioned players, just pointing out their playstyles.

Look at it this way, if a necro takes a skilled player to do well. What would a skilled player do with a stronger class….

Again there is a reason Necros are underplayed in Tpvp.

I put it down last post pick it up all you champion phantoms prove it and ill be shocked honestly will be, so post the SS of tpvp games won and title else stop talking.

Thanks

Xom.9264:

Again there is a reason Necros are underplayed in Tpvp.

That reason is because only 1/10 of 1 percent of the player population cares to expand mastery. They care only for the guided tour. And why should they have to put forth effort to enjoy the money they just spent of effortless entertainment? Sound logical reason to not care one way or the other.

Necro happens to require effort to figure out how to play well. Mostly do to minions, but because traits are dedicated to them, that makes it important. If very few players give a kitten to try and figrue away around Necro bugs, very few Necro will be seen in ANY focused analysis. Whether it is tournament PvP or making food for fractals, every specialized aspect is going to show Necro as a minority. Period.

There is no other mystical influence. Some of the very best players in the world play Necro competitively and they win. Against other competitive top skill teams. So save the energy Watson, already got this one wrapped up.

But what does that prove ? If you have to be “one of the best players” to play a necro successful that only proves an absolute failure on Arenanet´s balancing team. The differences between the classes regarding the skill cap is so high, on one hand you have really difficult classes like the engineer and on the other hand thiefes which are one of the easier professions. There were many things promised by arenanet regarding the necro, build diversity has been promised, making death shroud more informative regarding boons and conditions has been promised. What has been delivered ? Nothing at all but lousy statements about learning death shroud. I don´t even speak about Bugs, there is a good sticky thread here regarding this. There is a reason why the Necro is underplayed in tPvP and why the Guardian and the Mesmer is not.