Proposal: Necro Specific Condition

Proposal: Necro Specific Condition

in Necromancer

Posted by: Gryph.8237

Gryph.8237

Apologies community, I know I have proposed something like this before, but I am a huge advocate of the Necromancer being given a class specific condition that is more resistant to being removed. Below I try to add some reasoning why I think it would help our class and increase our utility somewhat.

Necros have access to several conditions, weakness (does this even do anything noticeable?), vunlerability, cripple, chill, poison, bleed, and fear; two of which (bleed and poison) we depend on to deal damage in a condition build. Actually, let’s be honest, Bleed is the one condition we depend on to deal damage; Poison does not do a lot of damage but does limit healing, and fear only deals noticeable damage when traited. Thus, Bleed represents the majority of our damage from conditions. In fact, I would gather that most condition builds in any class (warrior, rangers, and to some degree thieves, depend on bleed for their main condition damage. Although Fear is described by some as our unique condition, it is attainable by warriors and thieves, and thus not unique, and does little damage.

So why give something unique to the necros? What would that solve?

Necros are the condition/attrition class: ANET has designed (and described) the class as the attrition class. An attrition class depends on wearing down an opponent, via condition damage (DoT), and uses disables to decrease or reduce chances to escape. However, the necro has access to no unique conditions or disables, and I think it has brought about several problems, which overall limit our utility.

Problem One – The Bleed Cap/Lessened utility 1: As stated above, the large part of necro damage (if traited/built for a condition build) depends on bleeds, with poison playing a minor role). If we could downplay our dependency on bleed damage (which is used already by other classes with condition builds) and create a necro specific condition, then ANET could continue to maintain a 25 limit cap on bleed damage, and even add a new 25 stack limit to the new necro condition. Thus the mechanic they have implemented for bleed damage is maintained, and a new cap could be used to limit damage from several necros on one target (yeah right, like there are that many necros around that the damage would even need capping). Thus, we can damage the boss mob differently than the other class condition builds, which brings a unique dmg role to the field by the necro, which leads to problem 2.

Problem 2 – Defiance = no fear/daze (Lessened Necro Utility 2): Now that fear has no place in large scale boss fights, which largely represented our unique contribution to large scale fights, a necro specific condition would allow us to bring something useful to the table, with unique properties. Let’s face it, with the bleed cap, weak minions, and lack of ability to control boss movements via fear, the necro has a lot less utility on the battle field, especially in boss fights. A unique condition, which perhaps could bring a unique set of disables and damage, would up our utility.

Problem three – Condition removal: Condition removal is relatively too easy for any class. For example, the warrior class, which per the description has trouble with condition damage can easily remove conditions with shouts. Specifically, a shout warrior build can remove conditions almost as well as a guardian, if he uses soldier runes, which removes a condition with each shout. Thieves remove them when going into stealth, and their heal; guardians remove with ease; and necros, elementalists and mesmers are very good at removing conditions. So what is left? If large scale fights, conditions don’t last, in fact, im surprised if they are on for more than 5 seconds, thus our damage output is slammed. Maybe in smaller scale fights (5 v 5) they last, but most people are building to counter conditions, especially because condition builds are considered by some the most common competitive necro builds. On the other hand, the shear amount and ease of access to condition removal has forced some necros to play power builds that ignore condition damage altogether, which usually forces us into melee range, and we loose a lot of uniqueness just trying to be a robed dagger man, with roots and wells as our main process to damage. Condition removal not only removes the condition, but all stacks of that condition, which can essentially drastically diminish our total damage output in one button press.

Thus, a possible answer to the removal problem, is to make the necro specific condition more resistant to removal, perhaps via traits, or a new signet. Thus, if anet added a new condition that is specific to necros, they would not have to change parameters on existing conditions with regards to removal, but could focus specifically on the necro condition.

(edited by Gryph.8237)

Proposal: Necro Specific Condition

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Posted by: Gryph.8237

Gryph.8237

Most people play a class because they like the unique mechanics the class brings. I for one like that the necro is one of the least played class; on the other hand, I do not like that the necro is the least played class because it really is one of the most bugged, pigeon-holed classes in GW2 right now (of course this is my opinion and i speak for myself). I would rather it be the least played due to difficulty of playing, not due to the amount of problems. I am not quitting necromancer, nor will I continue on my rant path, that is getting this class nowhere with the Devs. I want to support this class, but I will admit that I am fatigued with the amount of issues with the class.

Do I think a necro specific condition solves all the issues? No. That said, I think it brings answers to some common issues, bleed caps, usefulness in dungeons, uniqueness of a class, and supports ANET’s idea of a attrition class.

Would really appreciate a thoughtful discussion from the community.

Nicademus Stormcrow – Necromancer (Aurora Glade Server)

Proposal: Necro Specific Condition

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Posted by: Gryph.8237

Gryph.8237

On possibilty idea is a condition that not only affects players, but could equally damage physical objects (doors, gates, etc.) over time. For example, Decay (for the sake a filler, i’ll call it decay), could deal physical damage over time, by aging the player, or object (gate). Things that age, break down. In addition, as a side bar, perhaps decay would also additively slow a players movement, or attack speed, the longer the condition was on him/her, or the object, the slower they would attack or move (With regard to objects, decay could actually slow the rate of fire of a siege engine for example.) Another idea, is to have Decay channel LF to the necro casting it by a certain percentage of of the damage being done. Thus making condition builds able to build life force via the condition output, and make DS more available to the condition build.

These are just simple ideas.

(edited by Gryph.8237)

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Posted by: Recently.1043

Recently.1043

Holy crap, did you actually use a shout warrior build as an example in your argument?

As someone who’s tried to run a shout warrior build in sPvP, i can tell you strait up, it does not put enough pressure via damage to kill anything really. You shouldn’t make sPvP arguments if you have no experience; there’s more to this game than theory crafting stuff from http://wiki.guildwars2.com

Call me when this game gets fixed…. if it ever does….

Proposal: Necro Specific Condition

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Posted by: Gryph.8237

Gryph.8237

Holy crap, did you actually use a shout warrior build as an example in your argument?

As someone who’s tried to run a shout warrior build in sPvP, i can tell you strait up, it does not put enough pressure via damage to kill anything really. You shouldn’t make sPvP arguments if you have no experience; there’s more to this game than theory crafting stuff from http://wiki.guildwars2.com

I was not proposing that the build would be all shouts, but if the warrior adds a shout or two, he/she easily removes conditions. Check yourself before you put words in my mouth. I did not say build a shout warrior in spvp, nor was I speaking only to spvp. I was referring to the ease at which conditions can be removed by any class.

Proposal: Necro Specific Condition

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Posted by: Gryph.8237

Gryph.8237

Would love to hear community ideas on different condition types that could be implemented that would give us something unique damage wise, and not sap our utility.

I know there are no “roles” in GW2, which has led some people to run dungeons with any combo of classes. There are some classes that are helpful in a dungeon, and some that are more durable, but any combo of classes should be able to run a dungeon. I agree that and there is no need to bring back the holy trinity (Tank, dps, healer), but having certain classes around should be helpful to the 5 man team. Right now, the necro appears limited to some degree, especially with regard to condition damage, and brining something unique.

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Posted by: Aigleborgne.2981

Aigleborgne.2981

I must agree with you on the fact that condition removal are too easy in this game.
In GW1, it was more difficult and without enough removals, some fights were really difficult. On top of that, conditions lasted longer. With condition proper builds, you could be very dangerous as it wasn’t easy to remove many conditions. Plus, conditions were overall more deadly.

Now, in GW2, conditions are a lot shorter and if it wasn’t enough, they are a lot removal abilities/traits, and some of them are even affecting allies. Stacking is almost useless as all stacks are removed by one removal.

IMO, this is why burst damage is a lot better ! Against a good burst, you can eventually use a heal but this is pretty much all you can do (beside moving/dodging/protection).
Even outside burst damage, raw damage outshine conditions for the same reason.

Now, a condition build will not rely on raw damage to win, this is a fact. As a necromancer, it will be mostly with bleed stack and poison. All these conditions are applied with short duration, it can be extended with proper builds but it can be removed quickly.

A new or special condition is probably not going to happen because it’s quite complicated to implement. ANet already have trouble to fix bug or useless traits so adding a new condition…

I guess the best solution would be to significantly tone down condition removal.
Good condition removal on a class should come with a high price

Conditions should be as viable as raw damage in PvE/WWW/PvP. This is not the case because healing is vastly inferior to current raw (burst) damage but condition removal is superior or equal to condition damage builds.

Last thing: weakness is a very weak condition vs high critical enemies. IMO, this condition should prevent or reduce critical hit. For example, weakness would add glancing hit AND reduce critical hit by 50%. This way, it would be a great condition to disable glass canon.

PS: sorry, english is not my natural language

Proposal: Necro Specific Condition

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Posted by: Brujeria.7536

Brujeria.7536

I Agree, a necro specific Condition would help a lot. Mesmers have Disortion and very reliable access to confusion, ele is the king of burning fast reliable permanent, both conditions which are meant to deal lots of damage.

I would however prefer a lifesteal condition:

- Damage somewhere between poison and burning
- Deals damage and heals you over time
- Rather slow duration, stacks in duration
- Caused by some Necro skills
(- Maybe let it scale off Condition Damage AND Healing power at a balanced rate)

Would fit into the attrition based concept, he gets weaker over time while u get stronger, perfectly for longer battles.

Additional ideas regarding conditions:

- Possible a trait that causes a strong lifedrain /damage effect if a condition gets removed / cleansed
-A trait that gives you health if a targets takes damage with stacks of your invulnerability (Maybe half of the extra damage dealt)
-A trait that adds a strong dot effect to your cripples if your target is moving (Like crippling anguish from GW1)
-A trait that steals a small amount of life for every stack of a condition applied to a target (Spell with 3 bleedings + cripple would trigger 4 x that effect, much like a guardian trait does with condition stacks)
-A trait that grants damage onto a target once it has 5 or more stacks of your bleeding

There are so many nice possibilities for the necro , yet we get pretty much useless or very situational traits and utility skills.

Proposal: Necro Specific Condition

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Posted by: Savan.8495

Savan.8495

I would however prefer a lifesteal condition:

- Damage somewhere between poison and burning
- Deals damage and heals you over time
- Rather slow duration, stacks in duration
- Caused by some Necro skills
(- Maybe let it scale off Condition Damage AND Healing power at a balanced rate)

Would fit into the attrition based concept, he gets weaker over time while u get stronger, perfectly for longer battles.

In before they announce it

Trait: Tainted blood

Your inflicted bleeds regenerate your HP for x% damage inflicted

Proposal: Necro Specific Condition

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Posted by: Gryph.8237

Gryph.8237

That would be interesting, if you could do a heal based on damage being done on conditions. Heck, a LF heal would be appreciated as well.

Still would like to see a condition that damages objects, or at least was resistant to being removed… in one flash.

Proposal: Necro Specific Condition

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Posted by: Khalifahaze.6045

Khalifahaze.6045

give us life siphon condi imo.

QT Khalifa [Cute] – Necromancer

Proposal: Necro Specific Condition

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Posted by: Gryph.8237

Gryph.8237

yeah, let me drain their life force to fill mine, or their health to fill mine. or let me steal their soul, and dance it around kicking people in the junk. That would make me really happy and feel like a necromancer.

Proposal: Necro Specific Condition

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Posted by: Brujeria.7536

Brujeria.7536

Maybe they could change Blood is Power a bit. Reduce the Might stacks, Decrease the Bleeding duration to 8 seconds, increase the ammount of stacks to keep the powerlevel and add a new effect only for that skill " Corruption" =“Conditions cant be removed while suffering from this spell” kinda booster for your condition damage for a short duration. But i think that would be too complex.

Proposal: Necro Specific Condition

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Posted by: Barend.5802

Barend.5802

Conditions aren’t the only thing necros should be good at. What about life steal, undead minions and curses. All those areas should be improved upon by the dev team and fixes.

(edited by Barend.5802)

Proposal: Necro Specific Condition

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Posted by: Sheobix.8796

Sheobix.8796

well, tbh i don’t think condition removal is too easy for other classes. Once they blow their condition removal, a lot of the time those builds are easy to stack conds on.

mesmers and eles have a hard time cleansing, for one. especially the ele.

shout warriors are meh (good tanks, but don’t pvp with one, you’ll cry) and they are built for condition cleansing to extremes. In that case, you should hope to god you didn’t min/max your necro to pewpew with a scepter.

Proposal: Necro Specific Condition

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Posted by: Sheobix.8796

Sheobix.8796

Here’s the thing people need to think about.

When you build a power necro, you can dish out consistent dps, and condition removal isn’t a game changer for you. But your target moves, and a lot of the time you need to close gaps and position to connect your hits to do yourself the good.

on the flip side with conditions, you can connect your damage from a range as long as they’re in your LoS, but your damage gets interrupted by sources of cleansing. Both types of damage have things you need to work around (for condition builds, its about anticipating the cleanse on your foe and connecting your BiP/bursts afterwards)

not to be a L2P post, but i think a lot of conditionmancers need to figure out how to actually look at their opponent and not at the bar when they’re casting.