So, how are necromancers doing atm?

So, how are necromancers doing atm?

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Posted by: Jknifer.6803

Jknifer.6803

I believe the bottom line is; without a spammable gap closer (Dagger 2 on thief), invisibility, or ride the lightning, you can’t disengage from a fight.

Thief/mesmer/ele – can do.

You could make the argument that engineers get invis, but they generally move so slow it isn’t going to allow them to break enough distance unless they juke effectively while invis.

Oh and norns… norns can all disengage…. should have rolled a norn necro.

Simply put a necromancer is the “Yamato without those big guns”. Necromancer is not quick/tricky enough to engage an enemy. Necromancer’s firepower is very weak in the engagement. Necromancer is not quick/tricky enough to disengage a fight. All the necro is good for is drawing fire away from his/her allies.

I often sacrifice myself to buy my allies time. For example let’s say my group of 15 got caught by a group of 40 foes. It is obvious that we have to retreat. Since I know I can’t run anyways, I would actually charge head first into the enemy, and then run in another direction. That will draw maybe 20 enemies to chase me. I would survive and tank for about 10 seconds before dying. That buys my allies 10 extra seconds to get away.

So yes Necromancers does fight like the Yamato, even how they dies.

Ok, lets take your 15v40 example. What a good co-ordinated guild would do is order a mesmer to open a portal behind the zerg then we wipe them from behind. If it’s 15v60 the guild leader might order the mesmer to open a port in a safe place. Good guilds don’t scatter and run like headless chickens, they use mesmer portals and move everyone at once. If we are going to die, we die together. Hardly anyone uses +25% run speed because we all want to run at the same speed and stay tight, it also frees up a utility slot for something better for the group. Good guilds use group swiftness to move as a group.

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Posted by: brogarn.8723

brogarn.8723

I’m not sure I understand why Engineers are being put down here with Necromancers for mobility, gap closing and escape. Have you seen the Tankcat build with 2 separate blocks and a magnet pull? Do you know what the talent Speedy Kits is? Granted, Rifle 5’s animation needs reworking to be a true gap closer/maker but they have so many tools for mobility outside of that it makes me think the person claiming otherwise isn’t as knowledgeable about the game as they claim. Rifle 4 > Rocket boots to create MASSIVE distance. Speedy kits for perma swiftness. Healkit 5. Slick Shoes tool belt Super Speed. Invigorating Speed where you get Vigor whenever you gain swiftness, which is just a swap to Healkit away every 10 seconds. Then get swiftness on crit from Infused Precision so you’re a dodging madman… So many mobility tools…

This is not to say that Engineers are in a good place as far as balance. They’re not. They’re chock full of gimmicks, none of which are very strong outside of using Static Discharge builds in a glass cannon explosion of lightning before someone flicks your ear and you die. But no mobility? I give you a giant “HAH!” for that…

(edited by brogarn.8723)

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Posted by: Rennoko.5731

Rennoko.5731

I’m not sure I understand why Engineers are being put down here with Necromancers for mobility, gap closing and escape. Have you seen the Tankcat build with 2 separate blocks and a magnet pull? Do you know what the talent Speedy Kits is? Granted, Rifle 5’s animation needs reworking to be a true gap closer/maker but they have so many tools for mobility outside of that it makes me think the person claiming otherwise isn’t as knowledgeable about the game as they claim. Rifle 4 > Rocket boots to create MASSIVE distance. Speedy kits for perma swiftness. Healkit 5. Slick Shoes tool belt Super Speed. Invigorating Speed where you get Vigor whenever you gain swiftness, which is just a swap to Healkit away every 10 seconds. Then get swiftness on crit from Infused Precision so you’re a dodging madman… So many mobility tools…

This is not to say that Engineers are in a good place as far as balance. They’re not. They’re chock full of gimmicks, none of which are very strong outside of using Static Discharge builds in a glass cannon explosion of lightning before someone flicks your ear and you die. But no mobility? I give you a giant “HAH!” for that…

If directed at me I am willing to stand corrected. I know very little about engineers (admittedly), and the ones I fight in WvW never seem to be able to get away, or really try.

Running with the BLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCK just buys time in most cases. If they do in fact have other gap closer/blink/teleport style skills that I don’t ever see then I apologize.

I wasn’t questioning their sustain or defense, which is quite high, but rather their ability to fully disengage.

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Posted by: brogarn.8723

brogarn.8723

Bas, I think. I now realize, though, that it was probably a little insulting and for that I apologize.

Anyways, Engineers have a bag full of escape tools and should be listed at least in the middle for mobility. Perma Stealth thieves and D/D Elementalists still rule the roost there. But engies get perma swiftness, access to vigor in a few different ways, CAN stealth with some set up, have multiple ways of blocking damage and at least one way of becoming invulnerable off the top of my head. While stealth is tricky, they can still fully disengage with the right set up. While you can say the “right set up” is the problem, I think that exists for Eles and Thieves too. While the Necro doesn’t have any “right set up” to do the same.

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Posted by: Rennoko.5731

Rennoko.5731

….

While you can say the “right set up” is the problem, I think that exists for Eles and Thieves too. While the Necro doesn’t have any “right set up” to do the same.

My request/point/hope exactly. Having the option of building to get that would be nice, even at the expense of something else. D/D ele gets mobility at the cost of damage. Staff ele gets practically no mobility but hit like a train. Thief on the other hand always has access to stealth (or would be crazy not to)…. so I would say they get to live by default. They do not have to give up anything to get that. Mesmer is similar to ele. It always has access to invulnerability, but it must take weapon/utilities to get the invis and blinks.

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Posted by: Bas.7406

Bas.7406

Bas, I think. I now realize, though, that it was probably a little insulting and for that I apologize.

Anyways, Engineers have a bag full of escape tools and should be listed at least in the middle for mobility. Perma Stealth thieves and D/D Elementalists still rule the roost there. But engies get perma swiftness, access to vigor in a few different ways, CAN stealth with some set up, have multiple ways of blocking damage and at least one way of becoming invulnerable off the top of my head. While stealth is tricky, they can still fully disengage with the right set up. While you can say the “right set up” is the problem, I think that exists for Eles and Thieves too. While the Necro doesn’t have any “right set up” to do the same.

You were not insulting at all. I have an 80 engineer, and play horribly with him. I was simply speaking in terms of access to the high mobility at all times. Even a staff ele has really strong mobility and escape through cantrips. Engineers in order to be as mobile as you say have to spec a specific way without alternating any single point. This isn’t a highly mobile class it’s just a class with access to mobility.

The problem that people see is that the thief and ele has access to high mobility while not sacrificing any damage to get it. They can both mobile and explosive. The engineer sacrifices a ton to pickup the highly mobile traits. Even in it’s highest mobile state the engineer cannot approach the Theif or elementalist in terms of ability to escape.

It however can approach and sometimes better the guardian and necro in terms of survival.

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Posted by: ManCaptain.3154

ManCaptain.3154

I’d say they are tied with engineer for bad design award. Their utility skills are generally good while their weapons are much less so, makes me with I could put util skills in my elite and weapon slots. Necro is not very versatile and a lot of their stuff needs multiple major traits to make it useful. Typical example are wells which need at least cooldown reduction trait and trait that makes them castable at the distance (should be the default functionality).

Another example is life steal build. Without any traits there’s like 1 ability on dagger that does lifesteal. Then you have a bunch of major traits that add lifesteal on some aspects (like crits). You need to spend a kittenload of traits and the life steal amounts are small and don’t scale with healing power or power. Which brings me to the next thing:

They don’t have a good healer build and in general can’t utilize healing power well.

You can make a condition build, but it’s weaker than ele/engineer builds that stack bleeds and burning. Against bosses (i.e. anything that stands still) an engineer build with triple nades + explosions have chance to bleed + crits have a chance to bleed + explosions cause vulnerability + crits cause vulnerability + crits burn (2 of these are minor traits) an engineer can stack the boss with 25 stacks of bleed, 25 stacks of vulnerability and constant burning and constant poison with some added chilled, just with grenade kit. It’s obvious which class I’d rather have with me in dungeons.

Another important issue for dungeons is that necro only has 1 good immobilize skill which is on a really short ranged weapon that you don’t want vs a boss.

Another pvp issue is poor access to hard CC and poor access to stability. Necro has no good stability options, there’s one grandmaster trait that gives 3 sec of it when entering death shroud. That is not very practical and it shares the slot with trait that reduces death shroud recharge.
As far as hard CC goes, you have 2 sec daze on warhorn with all the problems of a cone attack and like 2 fear abilities with 1 sec fear (one in death shroud and one on staff). That is quite bad. (obviously there is other CC available like lich form, golem minion etc). I mean 1 sec fear vs long launches (2-3 sec cc), knockdowns and stuns (for instance 2 sec on mesmer pistol) or heck even warrior gets up to 3 sec fear.
Fear is special as a CC in that it’s a condition. That allows you to run extenders (food+gear), but even then it’s 2 sec tops (can’t make conditions last longer +100%).
On the other hand it means that not only do stun breakers remove it but also condition removal, making it the only CC that can be removed by allies of affected targets. In this regard, fear should be either more common on necro or last longer.
So as a necro you’ll pretty much helplessly observe an ele bounce you around like a volleyball.

Necro is also pretty much forced to facetank all the damage coming his way.
No invul, no vigor, very little in way of escape. You might be thinking “I have tons of HP and death shroud”, to which my answer is “not that much you don’t”. This game is all about hard defenses, that is, avoiding the damage completely (especially dungeons), necro is therefore weaker defensively than, say, a mesmer who has less HP but tends to avoid the damage completely. Necro does have a teleport on the wurm but you need it placed already, because wurm cast time makes it not very useful in “oh kitten” situations.

Axe is boring, no utility and gets murdered by retal. Scepter has short conditions on autoattack and the #3 skill is pure power skill which just doesn’t belong there. Dagger #2 is inferior damage to just autoattacking, plus it’s channeled so no dodging while you’re channeling in someone’s face. Staff #1 and DS #1 are super slow projectiles which is very noticable at 1200 range. Their cast times make me wanna stab myself in the eyes. Staff #5 has too long recharge for what it does, I consider mesmer’s Chaos Storm several times stronger. DS #2 doesn’t belong, why would I pull myself to something when I have a long ranged attack? It would make more sense on axe or dagger.
Generally if I could run double staff, I would.

Cast times on necro in general are too long (just like in gw1 lol) and the class doesn’t feel responsive.

Necro has one thing where it really shines. Boon/condition manipulation. It’s better than any other class. But in some dungeons mobs don’t use either much so it’s wasted and if I have 5 slots on the team and I need boon removal, condition removal, I can clutch it with a mesmer or someone else.

In any case the whole class seems to cover this one niche and everything else is just an afterthought. Changing some damage numbers won’t fix this. It might make necro powerful if they buf his numbers, but the class will still be incredibly one-trick-pony.

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Posted by: Drachshyish.2319

Drachshyish.2319

So maaaany posts… My points…

Necros has a very AOE strong condition build. With Mark of Blood, Grasp of the Dead, Enfeebling Blood and Epidemic. Problem is that there are classes with very great condition removal which makes them basically immune to anything you can do… Eles and Guardians. Just today I saw my 10+ stacks of bleeds I just spread around vanish after ticking twice on all 5 targets…

Necros cant burst, and currently in many areas of GW2 burst is king.

Direct dmg necros are very weak compared to other classes. My hammer warrior can hit for 2.5k on an autoattack crit, and that toon has some excellent control skills and 3k armor to boot. What zerker thieves can do is pretty well established by now…
Elementalists can also bring a kittenton of hurt down on you and still have a great deal of versatility. Even rangers, with all their bashing, can put out a great deal of direct dmg hurt.
Lifeblast for a powermancer can do a smashing amount of dmg though. Wont even scratch the paintjob on a warrior if you are not very high in power though.

Many utility skills are buggy or to weak if not traited for… and/or have way to long CDs. Spectral Armor, 90seconds for 6(5?) seconds of Protection… Just not good enough.

Minions… Can be devastating, if they behave well. More often than not they just stand around looking goofy or run around attacking everything but what they should be attacking. Adding some control, like what the ranger can do with their pets would be nice.

Necros are still fun for some odd reason while still being frustrating to play. Generally in WvW I feel more like a speedbump than a threat, and that is the area of play I prefer in this game. With all the thieves running around though, death is just around the corner.

Necros need polish, and quite a bit of it… Trait lines are at best messy and many traits just feel pointless. Direct dmg needs to be brought up, especially on the axe which also should be able to hit more than one target, in the current game environment direct dmg beats condition stacking which gets cleansed pretty easily. And to boot it is way faster.

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Posted by: Drachshyish.2319

Drachshyish.2319

Good post ManCaptain… Should have read that first since I agree completely.