Whats wrong with Necros?
You wanna know whats wrong with necros?
The traits are sub-par. Weapon sets are too boxed, and some have been nerfed. Deathshroud was a down mechanic turned into a skill mechanic which made it wonky, it has usefulness but it’s very lacking.
I don’t really have high hopes the people in charge of balancing necros will ever tweak them in the right way. A little buff for necro in the same patch every other class is always steps ahead of it.
@Kravick
“I have to agree with this statement. Necro marks do very low damage and the conditions they cause are no threat to anyone really, which are easily cleansed. Even with a pure glass cannon power build you’ll only get maybe 4k out of staff 4. Other classekitten harder than that with abilities on much shorter cool downs. Marks are also one of the only moves that you can see brightly lit up like a light bulb and they’re a huge dodge through me sign unless you drop them on top of someone.”
Then they are NOT speccing Glass-Cannon. I run Berserker except for 3 Ascended wich is Toughn,Power,Crit-Dmg. I average 5k+ Putrid Mark and often higher.
http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/3664/gw069l.jpg
Rave
Servant of Dhuum
…snip…
1) While there may be more viable builds in WvW, this does not at all speak to the viability of the attrition aspects (or lack thereof) of those builds. The issue is not the amount of builds, it is the amount of sustainability the necro gains (or, as I would argue, doesn’t gain) in each build.
2) In terms of what the ultimate goal is, yes. But in order to achieve your goal in WvW, skirmishing is required (and is nowhere near as rare an occurrence as you describe imho).
3) So the necromancers complete inability to function as an attrition class in WvW in any non-zerg XvX scenario is unimportant because those fights are largely not reflected as much on the scoreboard?
4) Yup. But that still does not speak to the viability (or lack thereof) of the necro as an attrition class. Assuming you were pitted against an enemy force of equal numbers, you would still suffer from the same deficiencies unless the people you joined up with constitute a large enough group that you can effectively hide in the crowd.
5) Agreed. The necro has excellent offensive potential in large scale fights.
Nowhere in the statement I quoted did you ever indicate that your criticisms were about the attrition aspect of the necromancer. Nowhere in this thread have you ever stated that the inability to attrition is what makes necros incapable of doing anything This whole focus on attrition aspects is coming out of left field when being applied to what I am talking about.
I am talking strictly about WvW performance, and not the attrition aspect. I do agree that necros aren’t the best at attrition (which is partly why I run Carrion and not Rabid). However, that is not what I was talking about. I am, of course, talking about the many differences there are between sPVP and WvW, and how the necromancer’s weaknesses in one aren’t carried over to another. So, with that in mind…
#1: The biggest boon the Necro’s get is with greatly increased condition duration, which makes all of their cripples and chills more potent while freeing up space for more important attributes and increasing the DPS of condition builds. The ability to engage at range and while retreating is also more important, since the wide open spaces encourage pole positioning, which the necro is good at. Also, in WvW with plenty of enemies and terrain objects it is much easier to gain Life Force, making the defensive aspect of Death Shroud more valuable. In WvW players will also run glass cannon builds that are much more fragile than in sPVP, which makes the statistical bulk of the Necromancer much more valuable when fighting back against these glass cannons.
#2: Local skirmishes play a role only in preventing/achieving one of the other goals. I’m referring to the futility of ambushing random roamers and aimless PVP, as well as how the terrain varies greatly between defending a tower and capturing a point in sPVP. Even when you have a 5 vs. 5 bout at a tower, that is still far different from a fight in sPVP.
#3: True: It does not matter. Also, keep in mind I was not referring to necromancer’s ability to be an attrition class. I was, again, referring to the difference between sPVP and WvW, and how a target retreating instead of being killed counts as a victory in WvW.
#4: The necromaner’s main strength in conditions is their ability to apply them in a large AoE, and multiply other player’s conditions as well. Because of this, a necromancer’s power is literally multiplied while in a group. The necromancer’s disabling abilities also hit in an AoE, providing more defense in team combat while also providing more opportunities to team players to burst damage onto enemies. The statistical bulk of the necromancer also comes into play in these teams, because dodging and blocking key attacks is much more difficult when they can come from 5 different directions, and so having high HP is much more valuable in these circumstances. The high HP also decreases the % of HP lost from conditions, which undoubtedly will be flying around from the enemy team as well, making the necromancer survive longer compared to the rest of the team. The condition transferring abilities are also amplified by having team members, and with many of the Necro’s better abilities being support abilities, having people to support makes the necro much more useful. One of my favorite tactics in small battles is to use plague form, spam blind and chase the enemy group, causing half of their attacks to miss everyone while my teammates lay the hurt on their poisoned and half-blind enemies. By itself, a necro spamming plague form’s blind to disable someone is just a nuisance, but when you have other people with you who now can’t be hit either, it is a very effective tactic for winning a battle.
Again, assuming you do it as part of a large enough group, yes.
Possessing the tools isn’t necessarily dependent on having the team. Abilities such as laying down wells at sieges, putting up marks on tower walls, yanking people off of keep defense points, low maintenance travel speed with signets, good distance combat, those things exist with no one else needed. Sure, the capabilities of Spectral Wall and Plague Form and to a lesser extent Epidemic are dependent on having other players. You must hold this standard to other classes, though; what class would be capable of holding off a small army by themselves? I’ve never seen it done.
I do this when appropriate as well, but it’s a double-edged sword, since if you hit a target you will be kept in combat for that much longer. Also, a few marks on the ground will hardly make chasing a necro “suicidal”…
That it is. I usually only employ the mark tactic when I’m already engaged or the enemy is right on top of me. However, I have found that running while placing marks is an extremely effective 1 vs. 1 strategy. Most people who charge a lone player by themselves tend to run right through the marks to get to that player, layering up their effects one by one. They’ll chase after me while running through marks with no idea that I intend to kill them. Then I turn around, lay down Death Shroud (Enfeebling blood + fury + 2 bleeds + weakness + retaliation) and proceed to stagger my stuns while hitting them with everything I’ve got. Despite being condition based, most opponents go down pretty quickly regardless, and this tactic has won me fights where I obviously would’ve lost had I not done this.
Nowhere in the statement I quoted did you ever indicate that your criticisms were about the attrition aspect of the necromancer. Nowhere in this thread have you ever stated that the inability to attrition is what makes necros incapable of doing anything This whole focus on attrition aspects is coming out of left field when being applied to what I am talking about.
Okay…
In that case, allow me to recommend some reading material for you to catch you up on the recent debate about the necromancer. Specifically this thread, as well as the corresponding thread from the PvP forum.
There’s a lot more I feel like quoting from your posts, but I’m not so sure it would be productive since at this point it seems like we’re mostly talking past each other.
Necro’s don’t have problems with bad players, the ‘run and put marks behind you’ escape really only works vs bad players.
Most of the time if you are running, its from more than one person, and the marks will just keep you in combat while the other enemies catch up.
Yes vs bads, sometimes they will chase you too long and get depleted so far, you can turn around and gank them. But not sure why someone is running from a bad in the first place.
Not saying I have never had this strategy work, but as far as being some big life saver, or common thing vs someone actually skilled, no.
The best escape is usually just leaving a fight as soon as you can predict its outcome, while more foolish players stay and die buying you time. It may seem cruel, but its smart, and the exact same thing higher mobility classes do. Only they can hang around a lot longer. Otherwise jumping off cliffs with DS and SW are your best bets for escapes , of course not always feasible. Likewise, always having a convenient safety location in mind if you can help it. A tower, keep, camp, bigger friendly zerg, or even a sentry as last resort.
(edited by Pendragon.8735)
What’s wrong with necros? Ill tell you what’s wrong. The anet devs dislike necros, and don’t give a kitten about our role or place in any aspect of the game, and it shows. That is what is wrong. Our community, which I believe is full of talent and people with 10000 times more patience than I have, is disgusted with the place of our chosen class. We have had talented people play the necro only to just give up entirely and choose a different class. Anet does not care, because they will continue to play and pay to support their beloved classes.
after yesterday`s patch, I`v lost all hope regarding the necro prof.