Will scourge be enough to become raid viable?

Will scourge be enough to become raid viable?

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Posted by: Josh.4016

Josh.4016

Do you think it offers enough to maintain a regular spot in raids? If not, why? Please provide reasons, such as, dps doesn’t meet X requirement, other classes bring X, Y, Z to the raid and more dps, barriers and buffs offered by necro are provided by another class but even better…

I’d like your thoughts. I enjoy necro a lot and have always raided in MMOs, except Ultima Online. So, what are we missing to allow us access to this content?

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Posted by: mazut.4296

mazut.4296

Ask again few weeks after release…

(Reaper is perfectly fine for raids, no matter what people are saying)

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

I’m not sure Scourge’s support is desirable in raids, so they would have to get in based on DPS. While Scourges have great burst, nobody knows what their sustained DPS is like yet.

Dragonbrand |Drarnor Kunoram: Charr Necro
http://www.twitch.tv/reverse830
I’m a Geeleiver

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Posted by: Wintermute.5408

Wintermute.5408

Anything is raid viable. Will Scourge be taken for its support qualities? Depends on how much will we need to sacrifice for might generation – we might be able to compete with warriors in that regard. Will Scourge deal enough damage to pass enrages? Absolutely. Will it be less gimmicky than DC Reaper? Yes. Will tryhard elitists consider it worthy of raiding? Most likely not. Because “necros are unviable in PVE”.

Welcome to Rivendell, mister Anderson

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Posted by: Josh.4016

Josh.4016

Necro offers nothing that other classes can’t do or better. Let’s not have that debate.

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Posted by: Dadnir.5038

Dadnir.5038

Depends on how much will we need to sacrifice for might generation – we might be able to compete with warriors in that regard.

I’m sorry but that’s deluding yourself here. PS was king even when revenant’s passive might generation was above the top and Elementalists can still easily grant 25 might almost permanently to a party. Warriors are a convenient sources of might that need “low” investment and are already well rounded in all raids strategy because they do not only provide might (they also have empower allies and banners buff).

The point is that you’ll need a warrior with EA to be optimal and since EA is in the same traitline than PS, the best course of action is to use your warrior as might provider as well, while banner’s buff will come as a bonus.

And there you’ll have your scourge that will say : I can provide migth to! But he won’t be able to cope with the net loss of 150 point of power for all your team. He also won’t be able to cope with the loss of banners. And if you try to somehow push it, you’ll end up with a warrior that will take tactic just for EA, wasting personnal damage and usefullness for the sake of leting scourge provide might…

It’s not tryhard or whatever, the might providing role is taken by an unreachable montain of offensive buffs that the necromancer/scourge can’t sake off.

Like Drarnor said, the only place still left for the necromancer/reaper/scourge is a DPS spot. There is lot of competition for thess spots which mean that the scourge will need to hold is own dps wise. That said, there is potential for both condi and power dps in the scourge, what’s left is to see whether or not it’s at a competitive level. One need to be aware that it’s a boon eating spec that might end up starving in PvE and thus have a lower condi dps than expected in raids.

What the necromancer/reaper/scourge is missing is a unique offensive buff or debuff that is not the pitifull vampiric presence. Just this one thing in our core traitline would be enough to make any necromancer’s spec “sexy”.

No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.

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Posted by: Shiki.7148

Shiki.7148

Depends on how much will we need to sacrifice for might generation – we might be able to compete with warriors in that regard.

I’m sorry but that’s deluding yourself here. PS was king even when revenant’s passive might generation was above the top and Elementalists can still easily grant 25 might almost permanently to a party. Warriors are a convenient sources of might that need “low” investment and are already well rounded in all raids strategy because they do not only provide might (they also have empower allies and banners buff).

The point is that you’ll need a warrior with EA to be optimal and since EA is in the same traitline than PS, the best course of action is to use your warrior as might provider as well, while banner’s buff will come as a bonus.

And there you’ll have your scourge that will say : I can provide migth to! But he won’t be able to cope with the net loss of 150 point of power for all your team. He also won’t be able to cope with the loss of banners. And if you try to somehow push it, you’ll end up with a warrior that will take tactic just for EA, wasting personnal damage and usefullness for the sake of leting scourge provide might…

It’s not tryhard or whatever, the might providing role is taken by an unreachable montain of offensive buffs that the necromancer/scourge can’t sake off.

Like Drarnor said, the only place still left for the necromancer/reaper/scourge is a DPS spot. There is lot of competition for thess spots which mean that the scourge will need to hold is own dps wise. That said, there is potential for both condi and power dps in the scourge, what’s left is to see whether or not it’s at a competitive level. One need to be aware that it’s a boon eating spec that might end up starving in PvE and thus have a lower condi dps than expected in raids.

What the necromancer/reaper/scourge is missing is a unique offensive buff or debuff that is not the pitifull vampiric presence. Just this one thing in our core traitline would be enough to make any necromancer’s spec “sexy”.

Well, it really depends on whether raidwide barriers and raidwide “convert 2 conditions into boons every 4 seconds” is needed in possible new raids or not, or would make old raids a lot more consistant to beat. Remember Scourge can give the might, barrier, and condicleanse to more than “just” 5 people. If new raidbosses then also have a lot of boons that need ripping… Well. I still think Scourge should probive quickness or sth. instead of might because might generation is so over-saturated already, but oh well…

Then again, also depends on what conditions raidbosses dish out…if they spam chill and/or slow, that gets converted into resistance and quickness every 4 seconds (and the boons last 3 base), so…

“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

If future raid bosses like their Burning, I can see Scourge support being wanted just from that.

Dragonbrand |Drarnor Kunoram: Charr Necro
http://www.twitch.tv/reverse830
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Posted by: Sublimatio.6981

Sublimatio.6981

Necro offers nothing that other classes can’t do or better. Let’s not have that debate.

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Posted by: Brujeria.7536

Brujeria.7536

No, just no. No unique support, or damage increase. Barrier is just a lackluster heal. Low DPS, no Unique benefit = not viable at all.

(edited by Brujeria.7536)

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Posted by: Zefiris.8297

Zefiris.8297

Ask again few weeks after release…

(Reaper is perfectly fine for raids, no matter what people are saying)

If “fine” means that it is possible to do a raid with a reaper in the group, then your statement is true.
Unfortunately, everyone else defines “perfectly fine” as “not the worst option by far”. In nearly every situation and raid setup, any other class you pick does more for a raid group. Even an elementalist has an easier time to do far more damage.

So yes, no matter what you are saying, you’re wrong. Reaper isn’t fine: Reaper does significantly less damage in a raid, brings a benefit for only two encounters, and contributes nothing unique. To make a reaper fine, one of two things would need to happen:

-Unique Support that is useful to a group
-Equal DPS

Reaper has neither.

Scourge, at least, has potential for both. The DPS may be competitive (it sure is much higher than reaper), and it is possible the support will come in useful enough to run one.

(edited by Zefiris.8297)

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Posted by: Dadnir.5038

Dadnir.5038

Well, it really depends on whether raidwide barriers and raidwide “convert 2 conditions into boons every 4 seconds” is needed in possible new raids or not, or would make old raids a lot more consistant to beat. Remember Scourge can give the might, barrier, and condicleanse to more than “just” 5 people. If new raidbosses then also have a lot of boons that need ripping… Well. I still think Scourge should probive quickness or sth. instead of might because might generation is so over-saturated already, but oh well…

Then again, also depends on what conditions raidbosses dish out…if they spam chill and/or slow, that gets converted into resistance and quickness every 4 seconds (and the boons last 3 base), so…

The questions are :
- Will you give up druid’s damage boost for barrier? And the answer is no.
- Will you give up warrior’s EA to use scourge as might provider? Again the answer is no.
- Should you bet on what the futurs raid boss will do to say that the scourge will have a place in raids? Still no.

The support that the scourge provide is not “sexy” for the actual content and is far from shaking off our “support classes” that provide what’s important on the long run : offensive support. The actual content won’t disapear while the futur content is far and few. Ask yourself if the scourge have something that would make raiders want to use it in the current raids. You’ll end up finding that also it could be usefull to have barrier/condi cleanse on some boss, the loss of offensive support don’t make him a primary choice as a support.

The very design of the raids encounter make it difficult for the scourge to overthrow the current support pilars of the PvE raids. If, and I say “if”, the raids developpers were to design encounters that are not centered around killing a foes as fast as possible but instead survive hard environment/block wave of monsters for an amount of time, the scourge might find it’s spot. However, that’s still a far and uncertain futur.

No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.

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Posted by: mazut.4296

mazut.4296

Ask again few weeks after release…

(Reaper is perfectly fine for raids, no matter what people are saying)

If “fine” means that it is possible to do a raid with a reaper in the group, then your statement is true.
Unfortunately, everyone else defines “perfectly fine” as “not the worst option by far”. In nearly every situation and raid setup, any other class you pick does more for a raid group. Even an elementalist has an easier time to do far more damage.

So yes, no matter what you are saying, you’re wrong. Reaper isn’t fine: Reaper does significantly less damage in a raid, brings a benefit for only two encounters, and contributes nothing unique. To make a reaper fine, one of two things would need to happen:

-Unique Support that is useful to a group
-Equal DPS

Reaper has neither.

Scourge, at least, has potential for both. The DPS may be competitive (it sure is much higher than reaper), and it is possible the support will come in useful enough to run one.

Pugging raids a lot lately and getting decent necro player is as good as average alternative. Also doing very fast runs with my necro. At least 1/3 of all the LI I have are done with necro. You can keep trying to convince me necro is bad, you wont succeed

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Posted by: Sublimatio.6981

Sublimatio.6981

- Will you give up warrior’s EA to use scourge as might provider? Again the answer is no.

to add to this, its not only about dps or EA. scourge might share radius isn’t even half of the PS radius. its 240/180 with occasional 300 range. Even might blasting ele has better radius of 360.

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Posted by: Substatic.6958

Substatic.6958

Ask again few weeks after release…

(Reaper is perfectly fine for raids, no matter what people are saying)

If “fine” means that it is possible to do a raid with a reaper in the group, then your statement is true.
Unfortunately, everyone else defines “perfectly fine” as “not the worst option by far”. In nearly every situation and raid setup, any other class you pick does more for a raid group. Even an elementalist has an easier time to do far more damage.

So yes, no matter what you are saying, you’re wrong. Reaper isn’t fine: Reaper does significantly less damage in a raid, brings a benefit for only two encounters, and contributes nothing unique. To make a reaper fine, one of two things would need to happen:

-Unique Support that is useful to a group
-Equal DPS

Reaper has neither.

Scourge, at least, has potential for both. The DPS may be competitive (it sure is much higher than reaper), and it is possible the support will come in useful enough to run one.

Pugging raids a lot lately and getting decent necro player is as good as average alternative. Also doing very fast runs with my necro. At least 1/3 of all the LI I have are done with necro. You can keep trying to convince me necro is bad, you wont succeed

He’s not saying it’s bad. He’s just saying it’s the worst, which is why you get carried.

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Posted by: Josh.4016

Josh.4016

Seems like barriers are being dismissed, which seems odd to me. Unlike a healer you get to preemptively mitigate damage that could otherwise result in a death. Rift had a similar mechanic in the Oracle class and it was highly wanted in raids.

I like the idea of blood being reworked it’s always seemed mediocre to me.

Providing some buffs other than might seems great. Making the barriers scale off of precision, power, or condition DMG.

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Posted by: Lily.1935

Lily.1935

It’ll be fine as a DPS class in raids, the question is can it fill a support role well enough to offer something new for those spots? Thats what we don’t currently knows at the moment, because its likely that the core profession’s flaws with party support might make scourge not viable in that role.

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Posted by: DreamyLove.8947

DreamyLove.8947

i think is not, cos boon remove it nothing for pve
necro still can’t help team, can’t make 1+1 > 2

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Posted by: Belenwyn.8674

Belenwyn.8674

What are the strengths of a scourge? It can corrupt boons on up to 20 targets every 4 s. It can convert conditions to boons on up to 20 targets every 4 s. It can can set on fire and deal a lot of damage to up to 20 targets.

In raids we have 10 men full of boons, permanently renewed, and stacking up close together – perfect conditions for scourges and spellbreakers. It is very clear to me that the devs will use many scourges in future raids. I assume champion and Boss Scourges can also corrupt things like alacrity or Grace of the Land. Scourges can build death zones players have to avoid at all cost. Several scourges can pile up massively amounts of barrier to protect allies. Players will have harder times to kill the opponents. Scourges will steal many many boons from the players making them much more powerful.

Players will have tons of conditions on them. Scourges can be very useful in that situation. Scourges can control, a large field and protect several targets in very different places.

Scourges and Spellbreakers have the potential to shatter the current meta in future raids.

(edited by Belenwyn.8674)

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Posted by: Josh.4016

Josh.4016

If you didn’t get a chance to do the Oasis test, the few mobs and bounties I ran into were boon heavy.

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Seems like barriers are being dismissed, which seems odd to me. Unlike a healer you get to preemptively mitigate damage that could otherwise result in a death. Rift had a similar mechanic in the Oracle class and it was highly wanted in raids.

I like the idea of blood being reworked it’s always seemed mediocre to me.

Providing some buffs other than might seems great. Making the barriers scale off of precision, power, or condition DMG.

Barrier is being ignored because you already have to take a Druid or two and they do fine at keeping you topped off. The only way they wouldn’t succeed, but Barrier would is if raid bosses are given an unavoidable attack that deals % max health of the target. And even then, the % has to be very close to 100.

Dragonbrand |Drarnor Kunoram: Charr Necro
http://www.twitch.tv/reverse830
I’m a Geeleiver

(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)

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Posted by: Dadnir.5038

Dadnir.5038

Seems like barriers are being dismissed, which seems odd to me. Unlike a healer you get to preemptively mitigate damage that could otherwise result in a death. Rift had a similar mechanic in the Oracle class and it was highly wanted in raids.

Well barrier in rift are great, I liked it, especially as a tank. To be honest, barrier are/were also great in lotro, I was totally in love with this mechanism with my dwarf champion. Above all, these barriers don’t decay.

In GW2, PvE group content revolve around dps not healing. To put it simply, when the player discover new content they tend to need a few bit of survivability which then become unneeded as you understand the mechanisms of the encounter. This is where barrier, revive, heal stand.

On the other hand, as players grow accustomed to the encounter, they reduce the healing part to the minimum and instead look for more damage output.

The barrier mechanism is dismissed for this reason, on the long run this is not a mechanism that will be of an asset for the necromancer. And if we look at short term, this support give nothing more than what the druid’s heal give.

No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.

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Posted by: Belenwyn.8674

Belenwyn.8674

A lot will depend on the creativity of the devs designing future raids. Scourges can cleanse conditions 40 conditions on 20 targets at once. It can do this without stacked targets.

It would be easy to design encounters where you have take care of more than 10 targets. Encounters with lots of condition permanently applied to many targets. Encounters where you have to protects 5-10 NPCs at different paces at once. Think about targets that can’t be healed but protected by barrier.

(edited by Belenwyn.8674)

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Posted by: mazut.4296

mazut.4296

Ask again few weeks after release…

(Reaper is perfectly fine for raids, no matter what people are saying)

If “fine” means that it is possible to do a raid with a reaper in the group, then your statement is true.
Unfortunately, everyone else defines “perfectly fine” as “not the worst option by far”. In nearly every situation and raid setup, any other class you pick does more for a raid group. Even an elementalist has an easier time to do far more damage.

So yes, no matter what you are saying, you’re wrong. Reaper isn’t fine: Reaper does significantly less damage in a raid, brings a benefit for only two encounters, and contributes nothing unique. To make a reaper fine, one of two things would need to happen:

-Unique Support that is useful to a group
-Equal DPS

Reaper has neither.

Scourge, at least, has potential for both. The DPS may be competitive (it sure is much higher than reaper), and it is possible the support will come in useful enough to run one.

Pugging raids a lot lately and getting decent necro player is as good as average alternative. Also doing very fast runs with my necro. At least 1/3 of all the LI I have are done with necro. You can keep trying to convince me necro is bad, you wont succeed

He’s not saying it’s bad. He’s just saying it’s the worst, which is why you get carried.

Ofc, since raid release I got carried 830+ times… what a joker I am ty for the laugh

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

The only reason I can see the Barrier mattering is that it will let Druids drop a bit of healing power. I imagine that F3 will get used in raid situations, since it will still add a bit of DPS, so that will be a bit of healing that doesn’t have to happen.

Dragonbrand |Drarnor Kunoram: Charr Necro
http://www.twitch.tv/reverse830
I’m a Geeleiver

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Posted by: Asum.4960

Asum.4960

A lot will depend on the creativity of the devs designing future raids. Scourges can cleanse conditions 40 conditions on 20 targets at once. It can do this without stacked targets.

It would be easy to design encounters where you have take care of more than 10 targets. Encounters with lots of condition permanently applied to many targets. Encounters where you have to protects 5-10 NPCs at different paces at once. Think about targets that can’t be healed but protected by barrier.

If the Dev’s need to design content specifically for the Scourge for it to be viable, then that doesn’t speak highly of the design of the Scourge, does it?

Plus I’m not sure, as a main Necro player, if I want to be relegated to my role being a must have for that one annoying encounter in that one thing, and that’s it.

I really hope GW2 gets a big core Skill & Traits overhaul soon, that really shakes up the meta (and ideally is balanced enough to shake up the idea of a meta itself).
But that probably will never happen.

Necromancer just has to many essentially dead core traits that probably less than 10% of Necro player base have even looked at since launch since they are so bad.
One Specialisation line, being elite or not, can’t fix that and our limited viable Weapon choices don’t help either.

Additionally we don’t need one encounter to shine in, instead the game needs to promote more roles across the board.
I wouldn’t call DPS*3, Might Bot and Healer (2* for Raids) an interesting meta.
We need more conditions and boons from enemies across the board, so people need to worry about more than 1. Is everybody at full Health? 2. Do we pretty much have all the boons all the time? and 3. Who has the highest dps?

I also think reducing access to player boons would be healthier for the game than bloating boon removal.
No one player/build should be able to provide maximum Might for the entire party, essentially voiding all Might contribution from everybody else, making all skills that give Might here and there useless.

But maybe that’s just me (and sorry for the Balance “rant”, that just happened organically).

(edited by Asum.4960)

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Posted by: Anchoku.8142

Anchoku.8142

The teleport, Sand Swell, may be one good reason to bring Scourge. Otherwise, Arenanet has said the professions are being tweaked based on feedback so we will just have to trust there will be something attractive enough to prevent exclusion from the meta.

Scourge will not need to have an overwhelmingly awesome set of skills or utilities. It will only need to be good enough to allow in a meta raid, once the new meta is figured out. Scourge will be a mix of defense, mobility, and dps so top grade dps shoud not be expected.

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Posted by: Coffietire.2783

Coffietire.2783

The teleport, Sand Swell, may be one good reason to bring Scourge.

This!

I’m surprised the raiding community wasn’t oodling over this skill’s potential. I haven’t done all the bosses, but I can see it being great for VG, Gorseval, and that giant purple rock thing in w4. All on top of a good condi dps class that doesn’t require fields to do damage.

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Posted by: Rangerdeity.5847

Rangerdeity.5847

Necro offers nothing that other classes can’t do or better. Let’s not have that debate.

them some fighting words.

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Posted by: mazut.4296

mazut.4296

The teleport, Sand Swell, may be one good reason to bring Scourge.

This!

I’m surprised the raiding community wasn’t oodling over this skill’s potential. I haven’t done all the bosses, but I can see it being great for VG, Gorseval, and that giant purple rock thing in w4. All on top of a good condi dps class that doesn’t require fields to do damage.

As for now this skills is not needed anywhere, really. Maybe you can use it to drop the poison/corruption at Mathias, seems like a decent use if you can teleport back instantly, without waiting 1-2 sec for activation. But thats all that come to my mind. Future raids may utilize more movement skills, who knows.

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Posted by: Aktium.9506

Aktium.9506

but I can see it being great for VG, Gorseval, and that giant purple rock thing in w4

Any group that isn’t 100% utterly and irredeemably terribly awful at the game doesn’t do greens on VG nor updrafts on Gors. No one should get hit by teleports on Cairn either.

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Posted by: Artaz.3819

Artaz.3819

Seems like barriers are being dismissed, which seems odd to me. Unlike a healer you get to preemptively mitigate damage that could otherwise result in a death. Rift had a similar mechanic in the Oracle class and it was highly wanted in raids.

I like the idea of blood being reworked it’s always seemed mediocre to me.

Providing some buffs other than might seems great. Making the barriers scale off of precision, power, or condition DMG.

The difference of GW2 to Rift is everyone has a universal heal ability in GW2. Rift is a modified Holy Trinity – in Rift, class can be one of the three or a weaker hybrid between two of the three of tank/dps/healer. My point is that doesn’t really apply in GW2 raids.

The second aspect you need to think about is Barriers are actually weaker than a single class heal in general. They are potentially more plentiful but that isn’t always a good thing since it (Life Force) is a constant resource drain that could be converted to damage instead.

EDIT: Unrelated but on topic
The ONLY way Barrier becomes meaningful in raids is in lieu of healing directly is because of the Poison-33% heal potency reduction mechanic. It needs to be a heavily applied or non-clearable condition mechanic since Poison condition can easily be cleansed too. But that’s a BIG if and will probably be for only one boss fight. Basically, no unique reason to bring Necro still over many other classes.

(edited by Artaz.3819)

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Posted by: Shiki.7148

Shiki.7148

Seems like barriers are being dismissed, which seems odd to me. Unlike a healer you get to preemptively mitigate damage that could otherwise result in a death. Rift had a similar mechanic in the Oracle class and it was highly wanted in raids.

I like the idea of blood being reworked it’s always seemed mediocre to me.

Providing some buffs other than might seems great. Making the barriers scale off of precision, power, or condition DMG.

The difference of GW2 to Rift is everyone has a universal heal ability in GW2. Rift is a modified Holy Trinity – in Rift, class can be one of the three or a weaker hybrid between two of the three of tank/dps/healer. My point is that doesn’t really apply in GW2 raids.

The second aspect you need to think about is Barriers are actually weaker than a single class heal in general. They are potentially more plentiful but that isn’t always a good thing since it (Life Force) is a constant resource drain that could be converted to damage instead.

EDIT: Unrelated but on topic
The ONLY way Barrier becomes meaningful in raids is in lieu of healing directly is because of the Poison-33% heal potency reduction mechanic. It needs to be a heavily applied or non-clearable condition mechanic since Poison condition can easily be cleansed too. But that’s a BIG if and will probably be for only one boss fight. Basically, no unique reason to bring Necro still over many other classes.

I still think having a 2 condis to boons every 4 seconds for the entire raid without having to actually spec for it (aka still going full damage) while bringing decent barriers even without healing power, and condition corruption into two of the most damaging conditions is a pretty good reason to take scourge if the dps isn’t too far behind or even on par with another class.

And if someone says “but toher classes bring enough condi cleanse already”, I’ll answer with “With a scourge you might not NEED to bring any other cleanse, opening up those slots on the remaining classes for possibly better options”.

“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140

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Posted by: Anchoku.8142

Anchoku.8142

^
A sum of little benefits is what Scourge seems designed to provide but, in the absence of a must-have function, dps will weigh heavily.

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Posted by: Svarty.8019

Svarty.8019

I suspect Scourge will become a community of it’s own. There will be Scourge-only raids, but like lepers, Scourges will be ostracised from the bland normals. This ghetto class will socialise only with other Scourges and won’t be allowed anywhere near normal raids.

Nobody at Anet loves WvW like Grouch loved PvP. That’s what we need, a WvW Grouch, but taller.

Will scourge be enough to become raid viable?

in Necromancer

Posted by: Coffietire.2783

Coffietire.2783

but I can see it being great for VG, Gorseval, and that giant purple rock thing in w4

Any group that isn’t 100% utterly and irredeemably terribly awful at the game doesn’t do greens on VG nor updrafts on Gors. No one should get hit by teleports on Cairn either.

I never beat Cairn, but I have been in multiple scenarios where my group would constantly fail at trying the “no updraft” method on Gorseval only to try updrafts once and beat it no sweat.