Guild Wars 2

I believe only in science but since there is no science (translation: a dps meter) available in the game I use empiric science.
When I want to test a build I go to the PvP lobby, there is a Golem there that resets its health when you “kill” it, it cannot die so it’s a good training dummy.
To test a build I take the time since I begin to damage it and until I “kill” it (reset its health) 5 times.
I asked a friend of mine to test that condition build with this methodology and I compared the results with mine.
A disclaimer first: Sinister is not available in PvP so we used Rampager, my build was, instead, Rabid, also we was not exactly custom to the build so his results are a bit worst than normal however it’s a good test ground nevertheless.
Engineer results (time total / difference between each kill):
Kill #1: 15.798
Kill #2: 33.243 – 17.445
Kill #3: 47.838 – 14.605
Kill #4: 1:05.859 – 18.031
Kill #5: 1:20.894 – 15.035
Medium time to kill the golem: 16.182s
Necromancer Results (time total / difference between each kill):
Kill #1: 21.313
Kill #2: 34.731 – 13.418
Kill #3: 49.034 – 14.303
Kill #4: 1:02.064 – 13.030
Kill #5: 1:14.984 – 12.920
Medium time to kill: 14,997s

As I said the Engi was with Rampager instead of Sinister and not really custom to the build which means there is room for improvements.

This means the Engineer is not doing that much DPS as described early in the post, I’m pretty sure he can surpass our timing but I don’t think of that much, meaning that the Necromancer is good as the Engi.

Also there are a lot of factor to consider in favor and in oppisition:
1) The Engineer is faster to build damage
2) But will lose terrain after a while
3) For shorter fights it’s may better (a.k.a. trash mobs)
4) But we have Epicdemic (yes: EPIC demic).
5) The Engineer needs to close combat using the bombs, this is not always possible
6) But we do this as well, I use Dark Path and Mark of Evasion to add more bleeds.
7) Now that we apply a good amount of Torment there is a fair amout of DPS loss when testing the Golem since he is not moving.
8) Sinister is much more squishy than Rabid, in a real situation a Necro could be better since it’s harder to kill
9) <add more things here>. There are too many factors to think about!

TL:DR; Necro deals as much as damage as the Engineer.

Arcades Saboth.5139:

Snip

Unfortunately, your test is flawed at it’s core. You can not test timed kills with two different armour sets. Especially when the set used on the Engi doesn’t even have Condition Damage as it’s main stat.

Arcades Saboth.5139:

TL:DR; Necro deals as much as damage as the Engineer.

It doesn’t. Engi’s burning application means it’s not even close.

Nec condi dmg isn’t too bad, but is best while kiting around damaging moving enemies while engie is good at burning down enemies standing still.
screen of necro dmg vs standing enemy (so for kiting double those torment ticks):
http://imgur.com/qWH5ut7

It really isn’t close.

Engineer pistol 4 along with the burn kick from the rocket boots minor skill does so much burning damage it is literally unbelievable. Recently made a Condi Engineer running PP and it’s fantastic.

Mor Gothic.5692:

Unfortunately, your test is flawed at it’s core. You can not test timed kills with two different armour sets. Especially when the set used on the Engi doesn’t even have Condition Damage as it’s main stat.

Sorry but this doesn’t make any sense: following your logic I shouldn’t even compare different classes. We are talking about DPS and Conditions, of course we apply them in another way. Also in my test I reach almost the same DPS with just Malice and no direct damage (since I was using Rabid).

I may agree, though, that it is not a good reference because Malice is not the main stat however between Rampager and Sinister the diffrence is small so, as I said, the results I have are more in favour of the Engineer but the whole point of my tests is to demonstrate that a difference, if exists, is not that large as someone said: like 20k DPS vs our ?k DPS.
I believe my tests are still valid and meaningful.

Damages fluctuates with the Engineer between Burning and Bleeding application, we used to have a constant bleed damage but now, as I’m experimenting these days, it’s fluctuating as well but with the addition of Torment.

Avigrus.2871:

Engineer pistol 4 along with the burn kick from the rocket boots minor skill does so much burning damage it is literally unbelievable. Recently made a Condi Engineer running PP and it’s fantastic.

That’s just a burt, not meaningful and not even the best one they have: Incendiary Ammo is much more powerful (as burst, with pistol 3, for example).

I love it when people try to compare classes. We already know necromancer is the lowest dps in the game but the most survivable class. I really can’t believe people are still playing the “Oh this does better than this class” or “The numbers are higher on this class” game.

CodeHavoc.7926:

I love it when people try to compare classes. We already know necromancer is the lowest dps in the game but the most survivable class. I really can’t believe people are still playing the “Oh this does better than this class” or “The numbers are higher on this class” game.

Isnt that a vitaly important aspect of cross profession balance?

CodeHavoc.7926:

I love it when people try to compare classes. We already know necromancer is the lowest dps in the game but the most survivable class. I really can’t believe people are still playing the “Oh this does better than this class” or “The numbers are higher on this class” game.

Sometimes people come up with new builds or new rotations, and sometimes balance patches/trait reworks upset whatever natural order you have adopted as fact. At those times, I don’t see why people wouldn’t be trying to compare classes.

Why are you so accepting of some arbitrary fact, such as “Necros are the lowest DPS but the most survivable”? Have you substantiated any of that statement?

There may be flaws to Arcades’s initial comparison, but props to him for trying to bring numbers at the very least.

Arcades Saboth.5139:

Mor Gothic.5692:

Unfortunately, your test is flawed at it’s core. You can not test timed kills with two different armour sets. Especially when the set used on the Engi doesn’t even have Condition Damage as it’s main stat.

Sorry but this doesn’t make any sense: following your logic I shouldn’t even compare different classes. We are talking about DPS and Conditions, of course we apply them in another way. Also in my test I reach almost the same DPS with just Malice and no direct damage (since I was using Rabid).

I’m not sure how you got ’shouldn’t even compare different classes’ from my post, but I’ll try to be clearer on my point.

Your test is based on how fast a class can kill in X time, for this test to be accurate you need to keep the gear the same (or as close as possible, but as this test is using pvp gear this isn’t an issue), by doing this you insure that the only difference is what the class itself brings (traits and skills).

By running one class in a condition main stat armour (Rabid) and the other class in a precision stat armour (Rampager) you’re unintentionally biasing the result towards Necro as the Engi is missing 300 condition damage.

To give an example, the difference in burning damage between the two sets (per stack tick).

Rabid: 317.5
Rampager: 271
Difference: 46.5

Doesn’t sound much, right?

Now lets times that by 20 (we know that Engi can stack that many): 930

So for every second that the Engi has 20 stacks of burning they lose 930 damage by running Rampagers over Rabid.

Now add in the fact that this damage loss affects all the damaging conditions and you’re looking at an even higher damage loss….

Quells.2498:

In terms of raids, I think the days of only power and only condi will be gone. If the beta raid is any indication of direction, we need hybrid builds that can fill a few roles so we don’t have to spend hours getting the right composition. That is a place I think Necro shines as it’s so easy to spec into curses for condi and just throw everything else into power. Also, the burst heal with ressing potential and no bleed out is pretty amazing.

In a raid you don’t need to hybrid on the same character just across the raid in general… which means zerker revs and sinister engi’s not necros.

“but the most survivable class”

Necros are pretty much the worst class at “surviving” in PvE. They have no dodge traits, no endurance traits, no vigor uptime, no immunities, no block, no aegis, no real mobility to speak of and no real self healing ability beyond using 3 wells with a warhorn and traiting blood or traiting 3 corruption skills with master of corruption and using Consume Condition. Death Shroud will eat a few his, but it’ll take ages to get it back to full potency and during that time, you’ll die to anything that glares at you. Of course, Necros can spec to be tankier and just face tank damage, but it comes at a DPS loss. Sure, everyone loses DPS while in survival mode, but good players of other professions WILL survive where a Necro will just run out of dodge/life force. A great example of this is Mai Trin where you’ll run out of dodge and life force and you’ll just barely make it out of the cannon phase while anyone who brings some real survivability will come out relatively unscathed.

ANet was over-excited about having a game with active-mitigation, and they designed so much of the early PvE content around “the boss is about to do X which will kill you, dodge/block/evade/invuln it!”. That isn’t to say they’ll continue down that road. In fact, I really hope they don’t, as it is gimmicky and one-dimensional.

They can include some examples of it, but if it is infrequent enough, dodges will suffice.

“but the most survivable class”

I actually think the idea of total active mitigation is great, it is one of the major things that made the Demon Souls/Dark Souls franchises work so well as hardcore games. Nearly every mob could kill you in a single combo/hit, it was entirely impossible to “tank” through hits in the traditional sense (unless you hid behind shield, but let’s be honest anyone who did that is a wuss). So you relied fully on active defense, and it ended up with a pretty deep combat system.

The problem with GW2 is ANet applied this only halfway. They didn’t go all-in like DS did, they had a hybrid of old MMOs and active defense. That, piled on top of an unequal distribution of active defense, and just flat out bad encounters lead to what we have now.

Mor Gothic.5692:

Now lets times that by 20 (we know that Engi can stack that many): 930

So for every second that the Engi has 20 stacks of burning they lose 930 damage by running Rampagers over Rabid.

Now add in the fact that this damage loss affects all the damaging conditions and you’re looking at an even higher damage loss….

First of all, as I’ve seen, it reach 20 stacks of burning only for a few seconds, then Burning and Bleeding tends to fluctuate, this means the 930 damage you mention is lost only for a fragment of the whole fight. But let’s say the difference is constant so the Engineer lost a lot of damage, it would give him a few seconds of difference, which is a big result, but still, as I said, this means we are still in par because the results are similar. Again my point is to demonstrate we are almost on the same level, not that one class is better of another due to a few stacks of this instead of that.

As I said there is no way to have a perfect comparison but I think watching at some numbers during a fight is not meaningful, if you have another way to test builds let me know or try your self in the PvP lobby and share with us your results.

Arcades Saboth.5139:

I believe only in science but since there is no science (translation: a dps meter) available in the game I use empiric science.
When I want to test a build I go to the PvP lobby, there is a Golem there that resets its health when you “kill” it, it cannot die so it’s a good training dummy.
To test a build I take the time since I begin to damage it and until I “kill” it (reset its health) 5 times.
I asked a friend of mine to test that condition build with this methodology and I compared the results with mine.
A disclaimer first: Sinister is not available in PvP so we used Rampager, my build was, instead, Rabid, also we was not exactly custom to the build so his results are a bit worst than normal however it’s a good test ground nevertheless.
Engineer results (time total / difference between each kill):
Kill #1: 15.798
Kill #2: 33.243 – 17.445
Kill #3: 47.838 – 14.605
Kill #4: 1:05.859 – 18.031
Kill #5: 1:20.894 – 15.035
Medium time to kill the golem: 16.182s
Necromancer Results (time total / difference between each kill):
Kill #1: 21.313
Kill #2: 34.731 – 13.418
Kill #3: 49.034 – 14.303
Kill #4: 1:02.064 – 13.030
Kill #5: 1:14.984 – 12.920
Medium time to kill: 14,997s

As I said the Engi was with Rampager instead of Sinister and not really custom to the build which means there is room for improvements.

This means the Engineer is not doing that much DPS as described early in the post, I’m pretty sure he can surpass our timing but I don’t think of that much, meaning that the Necromancer is good as the Engi.

Also there are a lot of factor to consider in favor and in oppisition:
1) The Engineer is faster to build damage
2) But will lose terrain after a while
3) For shorter fights it’s may better (a.k.a. trash mobs)
4) But we have Epicdemic (yes: EPIC demic).
5) The Engineer needs to close combat using the bombs, this is not always possible
6) But we do this as well, I use Dark Path and Mark of Evasion to add more bleeds.
7) Now that we apply a good amount of Torment there is a fair amout of DPS loss when testing the Golem since he is not moving.
8) Sinister is much more squishy than Rabid, in a real situation a Necro could be better since it’s harder to kill
9) <add more things here>. There are too many factors to think about!

TL:DR; Necro deals as much as damage as the Engineer.

Couple problems with your test:

1. Different gear sets account for most of the difference in damage right off the bat. Need to normalize the gear

2. Necro’s dps is something like 95% conditions, 5% direct damage. They lose essentially nothing by having rabid gear instead of sinister. Engineer on the other hand is closer to 80/20 so they lose a good amount of dps without the secondary power stat and main condition stat.

3. It sounds like your friend just isn’t very good at PvE engineer. I’d try recruiting someone from the engineer forums who can pull off the rotation fairly well.

4. Might be interesting to repeat this challenge across many different professions and see the differences.

5. Do golems lose their conditions when they reset their health or does everything stay?

ZudetGambeous.9573:

1. Different gear sets account for most of the difference in damage right off the bat. Need to normalize the gear

2. Necro’s dps is something like 95% conditions, 5% direct damage. They lose essentially nothing by having rabid gear instead of sinister. Engineer on the other hand is closer to 80/20 so they lose a good amount of dps without the secondary power stat and main condition stat.

3. It sounds like your friend just isn’t very good at PvE engineer. I’d try recruiting someone from the engineer forums who can pull off the rotation fairly well.

4. Might be interesting to repeat this challenge across many different professions and see the differences.

5. Do golems lose their conditions when they reset their health or does everything stay?

1) As stated before by Mor Gothic. There is no Sinister gear in PvP so it’s impossible to have a direct comparison, so results are just close to reality (but not too different).

2) Doesn’t really matter: the damage you lose on condition it’s gain from direct damage, since we obtain timings we are calculating the overall DPS. You can do the same test against a Berserker or any other build, what really matters is the time-to-kill.

3) No he isn’t but with that spefici build. As I said my results are not optimal, I’m sure a good Engineer that knows that build would beat my timings, but, again the point is to demostrate that the overall DPS is roughly the same and not, as someone wrote, that there is a DPS gap of 20k vs 8k (or whatever).

4) It is! A while ago I tested with few friends between various builds and classes to understand what is working and what not. Do this test yourself, you’ll be amazed of the results (which is: we are not bad in DPS).

5) No, the golem does not lose stacks, that’s why I “kill” him five times: to emulate a boss (which has a lot of health). One single kill is enough to test builds against trashes, two/three for veterans/elite and 5+ for bosses.

Arcades Saboth.5139:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

1. Different gear sets account for most of the difference in damage right off the bat. Need to normalize the gear

2. Necro’s dps is something like 95% conditions, 5% direct damage. They lose essentially nothing by having rabid gear instead of sinister. Engineer on the other hand is closer to 80/20 so they lose a good amount of dps without the secondary power stat and main condition stat.

3. It sounds like your friend just isn’t very good at PvE engineer. I’d try recruiting someone from the engineer forums who can pull off the rotation fairly well.

4. Might be interesting to repeat this challenge across many different professions and see the differences.

5. Do golems lose their conditions when they reset their health or does everything stay?

1) As stated before by Mor Gothic. There is no Sinister gear in PvP so it’s impossible to have a direct comparison, so results are just close to reality (but not too different).

2) Doesn’t really matter: the damage you lose on condition it’s gain from direct damage, since we obtain timings we are calculating the overall DPS. You can do the same test against a Berserker or any other build, what really matters is the time-to-kill.

3) No he isn’t but with that spefici build. As I said my results are not optimal, I’m sure a good Engineer that knows that build would beat my timings, but, again the point is to demostrate that the overall DPS is roughly the same and not, as someone wrote, that there is a DPS gap of 20k vs 8k (or whatever).

4) It is! A while ago I tested with few friends between various builds and classes to understand what is working and what not. Do this test yourself, you’ll be amazed of the results (which is: we are not bad in DPS).

5) No, the golem does not lose stacks, that’s why I “kill” him five times: to emulate a boss (which has a lot of health). One single kill is enough to test builds against trashes, two/three for veterans/elite and 5+ for bosses.

Too bad we don’t have a PvE golem… seems like a good addition for guild halls…

I’m going to try this tonight on my necro and see how I do. I’ll compare it to my ele as well. I’ll see if I can get some other classes to participate too.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2xxdfo/gw2_dmg_meter/ idk if posting links is allowed or not, or even if this program is widely known. But from what i’ve read on the thread it doesn’t offend the ToS.
Just thought you guys might find it useful

Arcades, one question. Were you doing these tests solo or were you keeping yourselves fully buffed with an Ele standing in the background rotating blasts? Necro has a lot to help his might/vuln stuff, engi does as well but I imagine if you’re not stellar at the rotation you weren’t keeping it up there? And, even if you were, it’s not as good as a necro gets solo, or anyone gets in a group. And that’s the big thing here, we’re discussing potential group dps right? Or am I mistaken? All those might/vuln advantages necro has are seriously watered down when you play with a full group.

Seraphy.2374:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2xxdfo/gw2_dmg_meter/ idk if posting links is allowed or not, or even if this program is widely known. But from what i’ve read on the thread it doesn’t offend the ToS.
Just thought you guys might find it useful

Awesome tool! I tried it out and got numbers for necro and for ele. Those are the only two classes I know well enough to ensure I can get the best dps from them.

I did a few tests:

1. d/f fresh air ele

2. Staff ele camping fire

3. Condi necro no food

4. Condi necro with food

Well apparently print screen does not capture the dps tool while in gw2… so here are the numbers, not sure how to get the SS proof..

1. 5600 dps

2. 5500 dps

3. 4300 dps

4. 6200 dps

This was using Golem, subtract ~300dps for places where golem can’t be used reliably.

This was done in the PvP lobby, using rabid amulet on necro, zerker amulet on ele. Used 40% condi food and toxic crystal.

Sigil of bursting and earth on S/D, and geomancy and bursting on staff. Runes of the Afflicted.

Ele rain sigil of air/7% crit with runes of strength

If someone knows how to get it to be included in the SS let me know and i’ll redo it with the shots.

Numbers will be much higher in PvE, but I don’t know of a good way to test it. Might try to do necro on a champ husk in SW, should be a pretty good indicator.

Edit: should probably mention this was over 2 minutes. and I did not use Ice Bow.

I like Lupi phase 1 as a decent DPS tester in a somewhat realistic gameplay (have to dodge a bit and move).

As for getting the overlay in with the SS, can you change the SS key in GW2 away from print screen? I assume its overwriting the innate function of that key and taking just GW2 rather than your actual screen. You can always do a video if you have that capability.

As for the DPS, again I wonder if you’re prestacking might on the Ele and all that wonderful stuff.

That’s the big hitch as far as those dummies go, it’s not as much the PVP arena as it is the discussion of solo DPS vs group DPS. D/F Ele will do better than a staff Ele when you’re grabbing an extra 12-25 might (depending on setup). Take that staff Ele and pump him up to the same situation and it pulls ahead. And this is why solo and group situations are very different.

On my Engi I can pump out 12 or so stacks of might pretty consistently, however doing so is often pointless in a group with Rev/War around maintaining most of that role. So I get to play a little different. Likewise an Ele will rock with staff where a S/F or D/F build would do better in other situations. And, that’s why Necro has lacked for a long time. Where other professions get the damage modifiers (10% burning, 10% bleeding, 10% above X health, etc etc) that stack on top of these buffs, necro just has a ton of access to might and vuln. With that necro’s solo DPS is far more competitive than their group DPS.

Jerus.4350:

I like Lupi phase 1 as a decent DPS tester in a somewhat realistic gameplay (have to dodge a bit and move).

As for getting the overlay in with the SS, can you change the SS key in GW2 away from print screen? I assume its overwriting the innate function of that key and taking just GW2 rather than your actual screen. You can always do a video if you have that capability.

As for the DPS, again I wonder if you’re prestacking might on the Ele and all that wonderful stuff.

That’s the big hitch as far as those dummies go, it’s not as much the PVP arena as it is the discussion of solo DPS vs group DPS. D/F Ele will do better than a staff Ele when you’re grabbing an extra 12-25 might (depending on setup). Take that staff Ele and pump him up to the same situation and it pulls ahead. And this is why solo and group situations are very different.

On my Engi I can pump out 12 or so stacks of might pretty consistently, however doing so is often pointless in a group with Rev/War around maintaining most of that role. So I get to play a little different. Likewise an Ele will rock with staff where a S/F or D/F build would do better in other situations. And, that’s why Necro has lacked for a long time. Where other professions get the damage modifiers (10% burning, 10% bleeding, 10% above X health, etc etc) that stack on top of these buffs, necro just has a ton of access to might and vuln. With that necro’s solo DPS is far more competitive than their group DPS.

I did not stack any might or anything, just whatever I gained from natural rotations. Staff ele only had 3 stacks of might and fury on average, dagger ele had ~9 stacks of might and fury. Condi necro doesn’t really stack any might either though, just the brief moments of BiP.

A group dps measurement would be best, but is much harder to organize lol. Going to retry in PvE on a husk tonight to see how my real dps stacks up.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I did not stack any might or anything, just whatever I gained from natural rotations. Staff ele only had 3 stacks of might and fury on average, dagger ele had ~9 stacks of might and fury. Condi necro doesn’t really stack any might either though, just the brief moments of BiP.

A group dps measurement would be best, but is much harder to organize lol. Going to retry in PvE on a husk tonight to see how my real dps stacks up.

If you say condi necro doesn’t stack might, it means you used a non-meta build. Meta condi necro build generates a lot of might stacks and upkeeps them. This makes me think that your calculations are probably not to be trusted

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Jerus.4350:

I like Lupi phase 1 as a decent DPS tester in a somewhat realistic gameplay (have to dodge a bit and move).

As for getting the overlay in with the SS, can you change the SS key in GW2 away from print screen? I assume its overwriting the innate function of that key and taking just GW2 rather than your actual screen. You can always do a video if you have that capability.

As for the DPS, again I wonder if you’re prestacking might on the Ele and all that wonderful stuff.

That’s the big hitch as far as those dummies go, it’s not as much the PVP arena as it is the discussion of solo DPS vs group DPS. D/F Ele will do better than a staff Ele when you’re grabbing an extra 12-25 might (depending on setup). Take that staff Ele and pump him up to the same situation and it pulls ahead. And this is why solo and group situations are very different.

On my Engi I can pump out 12 or so stacks of might pretty consistently, however doing so is often pointless in a group with Rev/War around maintaining most of that role. So I get to play a little different. Likewise an Ele will rock with staff where a S/F or D/F build would do better in other situations. And, that’s why Necro has lacked for a long time. Where other professions get the damage modifiers (10% burning, 10% bleeding, 10% above X health, etc etc) that stack on top of these buffs, necro just has a ton of access to might and vuln. With that necro’s solo DPS is far more competitive than their group DPS.

I did not stack any might or anything, just whatever I gained from natural rotations. Staff ele only had 3 stacks of might and fury on average, dagger ele had ~9 stacks of might and fury. Condi necro doesn’t really stack any might either though, just the brief moments of BiP.

A group dps measurement would be best, but is much harder to organize lol. Going to retry in PvE on a husk tonight to see how my real dps stacks up.

You realize Ele DPS is going to fall even further behind condi necro on a husk right?

Yes it’s a pain to try to replicate group situations, which is why I’m kind of ignoring the posted results here, they just don’t mean much in group content.

As for Ele, yeah staff ele can’t do much but with A.wave, A. bril, and Eruption you can avg a little over 3, and D/F Ele can hit 20-25 stacks with rune and sigil of strength, without sigil it’s about 15-18 IIRC, been a while. (Comet, Frozen Burst, Magenetic Aura, A.Bril,A.Wave, and Earth Dodge)

Sublimatio.6981:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I did not stack any might or anything, just whatever I gained from natural rotations. Staff ele only had 3 stacks of might and fury on average, dagger ele had ~9 stacks of might and fury. Condi necro doesn’t really stack any might either though, just the brief moments of BiP.

A group dps measurement would be best, but is much harder to organize lol. Going to retry in PvE on a husk tonight to see how my real dps stacks up.

If you say condi necro doesn’t stack might, it means you used a non-meta build. Meta condi necro build generates a lot of might stacks and upkeeps them. This makes me think that your calculations are probably not to be trusted

Would like you to explain how? My build is posted in multiple places on this forum, if you have a better build please post it.

I did a test in PvE on a champ husk. Good for a condition test since it fairly easy to kite and kill. Obviously can’t translate to direct damage classes.

I averaged about 7000 dps on the husk.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNAr4Yn0ICV3gd2AO2AEIijeham1DRQAb6CIAiR9EkBA-TBiIAB2pEcC9C3q8D2TCQsaYqV9HAeAAjt/QAgDAjP+4jP+4t7u7u7u7WKgFVWB-e

use all signets on cd, weapon swap on cd, ds 2+5 on cd, scepter skills on cd (BiP followed with scepter 4, and scepter 3 after spite signet, etc)

Sublimatio.6981:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNAr4Yn0ICV3gd2AO2AEIijeham1DRQAb6CIAiR9EkBA-TBiIAB2pEcC9C3q8D2TCQsaYqV9HAeAAjt/QAgDAjP+4jP+4t7u7u7u7WKgFVWB-e

use all signets on cd, weapon swap on cd, ds 2+5 on cd, scepter skills on cd (BiP followed with scepter 4, and scepter 3 after spite signet, etc)

I’ll give it a try. Might have to wait a few hours, but should be able to do it tonight.

Tried the signet build. It has a slight overall dps gain due to the much higher might stacks. This will turn into a pretty big disadvantage in a group however where the might is wasted while the other build will gain the full effects of might.

Solo I would say this build is probably better, but can’t see it ever being better in a group.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Tried the signet build. It has a slight overall dps gain due to the much higher might stacks. This will turn into a pretty big disadvantage in a group however where the might is wasted while the other build will gain the full effects of might.

Solo I would say this build is probably better, but can’t see it ever being better in a group.

then take CPC, close to death, keep spite signet, you know min/max on your own, but in general condi necro is a no no for even semi-organised groups – this is where dagger build shines

btw. some races are better for condi necro, especially sylvari (take root, the seed turrets upkeep like 15 bleeds). if not sylvari, take mistfire wolf available to all races (but gold gated;P)

edit: realized in your previous kill you used corruption stacks. in that case it’s obvious why the dps difference is so little. if you would use the corruption stacks with the signet version, you would see the real difference :P

Sublimatio.6981:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Tried the signet build. It has a slight overall dps gain due to the much higher might stacks. This will turn into a pretty big disadvantage in a group however where the might is wasted while the other build will gain the full effects of might.

Solo I would say this build is probably better, but can’t see it ever being better in a group.

then take CPC, close to death, keep spite signet, you know min/max on your own, but in general condi necro is a no no for even semi-organised groups – this is where dagger build shines

btw. some races are better for condi necro, especially sylvari (take root, the seed turrets upkeep like 15 bleeds). if not sylvari, take mistfire wolf available to all races (but gold gated;P)

edit: realized in your previous kill you used corruption stacks. in that case it’s obvious why the dps difference is so little. if you would use the corruption stacks with the signet version, you would see the real difference :P

They are there still in the signet kill, I just had too many buffs and forgot to set the meter to less opaque so they are hidden back there.

Once HoT launches i’ll redo this with reaper instead of blood magic. I think that will be higher dps. Now that I have the meter I can try out some different builds and see what I can come up with. I think Spite/Reaper/Curses might be the best, although SR/Reaper/Curses is also a good option. Now I should be able to actually tell which is better.

I’m presently surprised with our condition dps. It isn’t quite as far behind as I thought. However it should be noted that I didn’t hit 7k dps until 90% into the fight. The build up is really really slow. I think if the fight went on for 5 minutes it might make it up to 8k average to counteract the slow build up.

I’d love to see what other people can do with various builds. The tool is very easy to use. Really just need a champ that you can solo in a lvl 80 zone, and do the best you can. Doesn’t need to be a husk obviously.

It’s just a kitten class. Everybody makes mistakes. Arenanet all made one big mistake in necro.

Be careful with that program, even if it doesn’t touch the client doesn’t mean they can’t ban you.
I think they did a good job on avoiding addons and, specifically, DPS-Meters, it’s good because it prevents elitism which ruins the game (as it happened with WoW for example). However they failed for two reasons.
The main is Berserkers, now everyone wants a zerk build because is faster. Solving this problem, however, is a huge task and require another thread.
The other problem is while it’s good they want to prevent DPS meters they also didn’t give any other option to test a build which is, in my opinion, something that is needed. They could at lease leave the training dummies in Lion’s Arch.

Theorycrafting is good, gives a little bit of work to players but prevents them to reach elitist level or having a single build that is mandatory.

So, in the end, for me would be fine having the Indestructible Golem in PvE and nothing more.

Arcades Saboth.5139:

I think they did a good job on avoiding addons and, specifically, DPS-Meters, it’s good because it prevents elitism which ruins the game (as it happened with WoW for example).

You think elitism has been prevented in PvE because ANet-sanctioned GW2 meters don’t exist? I would disagree with you.

anyone else remember this?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Master_of_Damage

Sure would be nice to have in GW2…. Sure would be nice to have..

Arcades Saboth.5139:

Be careful with that program, even if it doesn’t touch the client doesn’t mean they can’t ban you.
I think they did a good job on avoiding addons and, specifically, DPS-Meters, it’s good because it prevents elitism which ruins the game (as it happened with WoW for example). However they failed for two reasons.
The main is Berserkers, now everyone wants a zerk build because is faster. Solving this problem, however, is a huge task and require another thread.
The other problem is while it’s good they want to prevent DPS meters they also didn’t give any other option to test a build which is, in my opinion, something that is needed. They could at lease leave the training dummies in Lion’s Arch.

Theorycrafting is good, gives a little bit of work to players but prevents them to reach elitist level or having a single build that is mandatory.

So, in the end, for me would be fine having the Indestructible Golem in PvE and nothing more.

Considering it was part of the official Anet sponsored overwolf app contest I don’t think there is any problem.

Elitism exists with or without damage meters. Damage meters just make people accountable. This goes both ways, for the elitists to show people how much worse damage you do in PVT, and in reverse, showing that Elitist warrior who runs a terrible rotation how pitiful he is for talking down to the Valkyrie Necro who’s outdamaging him >.<

Damage meters don’t create elitism, people do that on their own.

As I said they failed a bit on creating Elitism, in fact we have the Berserker problem.
However they made a good thing preventing damage meters.
Overwolf have no damage meters at all, a lot of useful application but no meters.

Damage meters would give people more reason to shift the game on a specific class or build and ruin the fun (even more than now).
It is my opinion to have something that lets you test (like the Golem) gives no ultimate precise results.

I’m almost ashamed to admit all that forum talk about how bad the Necro/Reaper dps is and how they lack team support and how they will not have a place in high end pve etc, nearly made me stop playing the class.

Then I remembered that I play games to have fun and that Im having fun playing a Necro and soon a Reaper. And thats it

pepsis.5384:

I’m almost ashamed to admit all that forum talk about how bad the Necro/Reaper dps is and how they lack team support and how they will not have a place in high end pve etc, nearly made me stop playing the class.

Then I remembered that I play games to have fun and that Im having fun playing a Necro and soon a Reaper. And thats it

hey most of us play for fun too, but you get to a point where you see other professions being fun and effective. Then you ask hey Anet why not us too? Then offer feedback and suggestions but get silence for many months, then see your suggestions being given to a different profession and even though now you do more damage, due to power creep and lack of balance you end up remaining fun but ineffective you can see why some lose all hope for competitive viability for Necro

Arcades Saboth.5139:

As I said they failed a bit on creating Elitism, in fact we have the Berserker problem.
However they made a good thing preventing damage meters.
Overwolf have no damage meters at all, a lot of useful application but no meters.

Damage meters would give people more reason to shift the game on a specific class or build and ruin the fun (even more than now).
It is my opinion to have something that lets you test (like the Golem) gives no ultimate precise results.

People seem to already have enough reason to claim “No Necro/Ranger” in PvE. Real data exposes the truth, and the truth is always a good thing, for both the players and the developers.

Even if the results aren’t precise, people would use your golem test to discriminate against classes in PvE. Then other people would see that and automatically believe it, chaining through the community all on imprecise data.

People blame damage meters in every game, when they should be blaming the people. People will always find any way/excuse to tell you they are better than you. Right now, GW2 has no good method for you to prove otherwise. That’s a failing if they care about PvE.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Here are the Engineer and Scrapper POV’s from the Vale Guardian kill that OP is talking about:

Engineer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8AKNIO_q2Q&feature=youtu.be

Scrapper
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFAS7jPwPKk&feature=youtu.be

I’m not sure that our DPS is as terrible as OP makes it out to be but I do also wish that the people in this thread would stop bashing OP having apparently also never seen the videos. Maybe do some research before screaming “YOU’RE WRONG GRAVEDIGGER SPAM IS SO OP.”

Its the same people that are vehemently against meters that are saying the OP is so wrong, which is suspicious to say the least. To claim that necro/reaper dps is so high, but at the same time be so rabidly opposed to having a clear, in-game way to see the facts…

Cogbyrn.7283:

Arcades Saboth.5139:

As I said they failed a bit on creating Elitism, in fact we have the Berserker problem.
However they made a good thing preventing damage meters.
Overwolf have no damage meters at all, a lot of useful application but no meters.

Damage meters would give people more reason to shift the game on a specific class or build and ruin the fun (even more than now).
It is my opinion to have something that lets you test (like the Golem) gives no ultimate precise results.

People seem to already have enough reason to claim “No Necro/Ranger” in PvE. Real data exposes the truth, and the truth is always a good thing, for both the players and the developers.

Even if the results aren’t precise, people would use your golem test to discriminate against classes in PvE. Then other people would see that and automatically believe it, chaining through the community all on imprecise data.

People blame damage meters in every game, when they should be blaming the people. People will always find any way/excuse to tell you they are better than you. Right now, GW2 has no good method for you to prove otherwise. That’s a failing if they care about PvE.

You are kitten right and that’s sad. My hope is that a Golem or similar tests gives people the opportunity to help them improve ourself build, not blame others.
It’s impossible to play without a comparison meter: I want to know if my build is working or not! It’s part of the game to keep improving.
Or keep changing! I have 4 ascended armors on my necro because I wanted to change playstile, however I had to drop two of them because those were fun but not working.

Arcades Saboth.5139:

My hope is that a Golem or similar tests gives people the opportunity to help them improve ourself build, not blame others.

When I was playing a Demonology Warlock at the release of Warlords of Draenor, I sat with my damage meter open, practicing on a dummy. When I went into raids with it, I would use the damage meter to make sure I was performing well relative to the other classes. If I saw another Demo Lock outperforming me in a larger group, I would dig into their damage data and see what their skill percentages were. Was my DoT uptime not high enough? Were they doing something different in their rotation? Was it a crit/gear difference?

All of this was solely to improve myself. Also, in multiple cases, another Warlock would whisper me and ask how I was doing so much more damage. We would then have a conversation about the rotation (more like a priority list, with a few burn phases), talent build, and gearing. The damage meter is just a tool, and tools can be used for good and ill.

I actually didn’t know there was an immortal golem out in the sPvP area, so I’m probably going to go play around on it. However, I’ll always, always, always support a mechanism for measuring data in an MMO. That’s probably just the old raider in me, but it’s a strong feeling. Nothing helps you improve yourself like objective data.