Guild Wars 2

so necro atm:

worst mobility
worst support
worst survivability
worst damage
3rd best boon removal

discuss

Worst mobility? yes but you got the wurm and walk

worst support? i guess but thats not our job

worst survivability? nah man zerker thief/mes/ele way squishier

worst damage? nah man lich form/life blast or 100fears is plenty dmg

3rd best boon removal? LOL

Corrupt boon + path of corruption + axe#3 + chill of death + well of corruption

No class comes even close to us when it comes to boon removal

Best boon conversion into conditions, which is incredibly strong

Extremely strong in 1v1s (if played well)

Great pressure, whether condi or wells, in team fights

Buckets full of fear: to set up burst, interrupt stomps/ressing and actually deal damage itself

Conclusion: Moa, stop scaring people off from playing necro. They’re superbly beautiful and stronk, and not enough people play it well.

Narkodx.1472:

Worst mobility? yes but you got the wurm and walk

worst support? i guess but thats not our job

worst survivability? nah man zerker thief/mes/ele way squishier

worst damage? nah man lich form/life blast or 100fears is plenty dmg

3rd best boon removal? LOL

Corrupt boon + path of corruption + axe#3 + chill of death + well of corruption

No class comes even close to us when it comes to boon removal

survivability of emsmers and thiefs is actualyl better in etamfighst cause of stealths, ports, invulns, dodges which tehy actually have and we dont.
Damage of power nec is stil worse than dmg of mesmers and theifs whiel their survivability is way worse, condi nec has less dmg than anything else but bunker guard
boon removal of necro isnt realy good, ye tehres alot of it, but its priotities are incredibly bad, mesmers have more boon removal than nec and thief has more reliable.
as it stands atm tehres absolutely no reason to ever bring a necro to pvp, any other class would do more for your team and also bring less of a weakspot to capitalize on

Blackmoa.3186:

Narkodx.1472:

Worst mobility? yes but you got the wurm and walk

worst support? i guess but thats not our job

worst survivability? nah man zerker thief/mes/ele way squishier

worst damage? nah man lich form/life blast or 100fears is plenty dmg

3rd best boon removal? LOL

Corrupt boon + path of corruption + axe#3 + chill of death + well of corruption

No class comes even close to us when it comes to boon removal

survivability of emsmers and thiefs is actualyl better in etamfighst cause of stealths, ports, invulns, dodges which tehy actually have and we dont.
Damage of power nec is stil worse than dmg of mesmers and theifs whiel their survivability is way worse, condi nec has less dmg than anything else but bunker guard
boon removal of necro isnt realy good, ye tehres alot of it, but its priotities are incredibly bad, mesmers have more boon removal than nec and thief has more reliable.
as it stands atm tehres absolutely no reason to ever bring a necro to pvp, any other class would do more for your team and also bring less of a weakspot to capitalize on

First of all work on your spelling

I see, so you did not come to the forums for an actual debate you simply want to QQ and have made up your mind that necro is complete trash and should not be used in PvP – The rest of us will continue to own with our Necros

I might suggest that people not blow him off so readily. Blackmoa is quite familiar with the profession. That said, this does seem like a thread where he’s blowing off frustration right now.

According to the Q/A response I got, the developers balance the classes using strictly team Pvp. Using this rationale, Necromancers are supposedly most balanced there.

I don’t agree with that assessment or the approach in general; ignoring all other game modes for balance purposes seems ridiculous in any game, let alone GW2.

The current meta tPvp necro build running terror is strong enough to be ‘competitive’ at higher end tPvp. It relies on a lot of automatic fear procs, supported by the same mindset that gave us the recently buffed Nightmare Runes. However, other classes with higher potential skill caps will dominate said necro, given both players are equally skilled, because our strength is balanced around those involuntary procs.

Apokriphos.7042:

According to the Q/A response I got, the developers balance the classes using strictly team Pvp. Using this rationale, Necromancers are supposedly most balanced there.

I don’t agree with that assessment or the approach in general; ignoring all other game modes for balance purposes seems ridiculous in any game, let alone GW2.

The current meta tPvp necro build running terror is strong enough to be ‘competitive’ at higher end tPvp. It relies on a lot of automatic fear procs, supported by the same mindset that gave us the recently buffed Nightmare Runes. However, other classes with higher potential skill caps will dominate said necro, given both players are equally skilled, because our strength is balanced around those involuntary procs.

What are you talking about? All other classes given equal skill can beat a Necro? what builds? this statement is way too general to make any conclusions… I think the meta necro build is actually one of the best builds strictly speaking in a 1v1 duel – but obviously thats not the only thing that counts in the conquest game

Ignoring Conquest the meta 0/6/4/0/4 Necro build can defeat anything in a pure 1v1 duel – the classes ultimate weakness comes when we include capture points and multiple opponents in a team fight situation

Yes all class balance is with tPvP in mind – which is how it should be the game should not be balanced for 1v1 or WvW roaming or Pve or anything else besdies the only competitive format we have – Class balance should only be for competitive formats

Blackmoa.3186:

so necro atm:

worst mobility
worst support
worst survivability
worst damage
3rd best boon removal

discuss

The only thing I can agree on is the worst mobility. The rest is somewhere between debatable and definitely not true.

Narkodx.1472:

Ignoring Conquest the meta 0/6/4/0/4 Necro build can defeat anything in a pure 1v1 duel

This build isn’t even the strongest 1v1 build among necros. And there are lots of builds on other classes that can give it a very hard time.
Ultimately it comes down to the player’s skill anyway.

flow.6043:

Blackmoa.3186:

so necro atm:

worst mobility
worst support
worst survivability
worst damage
3rd best boon removal

discuss

The only thing I can agree on is the worst mobility. The rest is somewhere between debatable and definitely not true.

Narkodx.1472:

Ignoring Conquest the meta 0/6/4/0/4 Necro build can defeat anything in a pure 1v1 duel

This build isn’t even the strongest 1v1 build among necros. And there are lots of builds on other classes that can give it a very hard time.
Ultimately it comes down to the player’s skill anyway.

I think it is the best OVERALL dueling build – Opinion neither of us can probably prove

The best dueling build for a Necro depends on your opponents build – Buildwars

In the end we can both agree it comes down to player skill indeed

Narkodx.1472:

worst support? i guess but thats not our job

Wasn’t it the goal of GW2 to remove the holy trinity by introducing a soft trinity of damage support and CC accessible to every class just that the playstyle differed between classes?

Narkodx.1472:

3rd best boon removal? LOL

Corrupt boon + path of corruption + axe#3 + chill of death + well of corruption

No class comes even close to us when it comes to boon removal

Actually mesmer have the boon removal that rival if not surpass the necromancer’s boon removal.
sword#1 + gs#3 + shattered concentration + null field + phantasmal disenchanter + arcane thievery

Blackmoa.3186:

so necro atm:

worst mobility
worst support
worst survivability
worst damage
3rd best boon removal

discuss

Well i kind of understand this, since there were situation while playing necro when i also experianced all of this. But i dont think because of frustration but more because necro might be easy profesion for enemies to exploit its weakneses. In my opinion, because, we are the class built around bellow average action mobility and sustain (ds might refear to tankiness not sustain) and very long casting times, while having one of the easyest heal to interupt.
Not saying we are the worst proffesion. There were many times i felt like necro is as balanced as any proffesion. But because of reasons above, there were also many situations/times when i thought wtf is anet doing with this proffesion.

Just saying that balance of necro atm is situational. Which might indicate poor proffesion design.

Took your time to notice.

Its the same story in PvE.

Moa, who do you think is last currently on top level, ranger or necro?

I agree with everything except boon removal. It entirely depends on the situation, and I’d argue that we have the most useful boon removal, as it provides a much stronger chance to focus someone, compared to just boon removal. But its still not enough.

After reading this, I decided to go back to PvP after a month’s absence from the scene. Played 3 matches with my Necro, won each time and was the overall top scorer twice. My win/loss ratio (which is entirely on Necro; it is all I use in PvP) is still overwhelmingly positive as always. I look at this, and all I can think is “Wutchu talkin’ ’bout?”

Nox Lucis.8341:

After reading this, I decided to go back to PvP after a month’s absence from the scene. Played 3 matches with my Necro, won each time and was the overall top scorer twice. My win/loss ratio (which is entirely on Necro; it is all I use in PvP) is still overwhelmingly positive as always. I look at this, and all I can think is “Wutchu talkin’ ’bout?”

Completely anecdotal evidence proves nothing.

Bhawb.7408:

Nox Lucis.8341:

After reading this, I decided to go back to PvP after a month’s absence from the scene. Played 3 matches with my Necro, won each time and was the overall top scorer twice. My win/loss ratio (which is entirely on Necro; it is all I use in PvP) is still overwhelmingly positive as always. I look at this, and all I can think is “Wutchu talkin’ ’bout?”

Completely anecdotal evidence proves nothing.

This.

No response to my original post, but whatever. Sometimes these forums make me so sad because people blame the beautiful profession instead of their own skill level.

I like the Necro.

So I took a break untill expansion ;3 .

worst mobility

This is actually true very close with Guardian but he has 2 Movements tied to his Weapon GS#3 and S#2 wich makes him slighlty more mobile

worst support

Well as stated above we arent a support class, and yes we are worst at this aswell (Life Transfution, Regen Buff, Plague Signet are exceptions)

worst survivability

Not even close to truth when it comes to Health Pool and DS we can survive several burst but since mobility = survival then we fall further down the ladder then we should have, a attrition class we are NOT, and since everyone knows necro is lacking mobility we usually are first target.

worst damage

Here is were u started to smoke the mushrooms m8, cause when it comes to dmg we are imho #1 in AoE dmg overall and #1 in Condition dmg tho we lack Single target DD -dmg of classes like Warrior,Thief and say Mesmer Id still say damage is Necros strong point.

3rd best boon removal

wich class does it better ? We are the masters of Corruption, and yes u need to be Condi Specced to get the most out of it I just cant see what u ment by 3rd here tbh.

Narkodx.1472:

Worst mobility? yes but you got the wurm and walk

worst support? i guess but thats not our job

worst survivability? nah man zerker thief/mes/ele way squishier

worst damage? nah man lich form/life blast or 100fears is plenty dmg

3rd best boon removal? LOL

Corrupt boon + path of corruption + axe#3 + chill of death + well of corruption

No class comes even close to us when it comes to boon removal

Wurm and Swalk aint mobility, they are pre set teleports, by that logic mesmer portal and thief shadow trap are op mobility.

Nope, evade, evade, block, vigor, invuls, reflects

Necros are tied 3rd highest dps with charriors in terms of self capable strength, but that means jack kitten since zerk gear by itself means a ton of damage.

Mesmer aa>Thief larcenous>Necro CB +DP or A/F + WoC =>Engie lixirs.

finally someone not brown nosing and realising how bad a state necro is in.. im sorry but is good positioning means waiting for someone to get into a fight then dropping in later then that is trash.,.. no class should require another class with them at all times to be “viable”. to peel etc. anet actually need to test the class against real people.

I’ve been playing double range 4/4/0/0/6 zerk shatter mesmer and I know I’m supposed to be squishier than almost everything but I actually feel more sustain somehow with the ability to disengage and just portal around lots of dodges and the damage is just insane.

Blackmoa.3186:

so necro atm:

3rd best boon removal

discuss

Who removes boons better than Necros?

Dirame.8521:

Blackmoa.3186:

so necro atm:

3rd best boon removal

discuss

Who removes boons better than Necros?

Mesmer and Thief on a reliable pre second basis, engie can technically “burst” off condis/over a few seconds for total boon removed/second, but over a longer fight (on second corrupt boon into 3rd dark path) it goes into the favor of necros.

Necros boon removal would be the best if it wasnt on such high cooldown/long cast time skills. Thats the main reason its ranked 3rd. Most classes can reapply boons and cleanse multiple times. So a single burst of boon corruption is not really a major threat by itself. The game is very boon heavy so sustainable boon removal is superior to burst.

^Corrupt boon is an incredible threat if used correctly. You’re just wrong.

Guys, what are you on about? Necromancers are awesome!

You just need your toolbar to look like this and you’ll be golden!

Granted, not a PvP setup :<

Ovid.7135:

^Corrupt boon is an incredible threat if used correctly. You’re just wrong.

How is sustainable boon removal not better than burst boon removal that depends entirely on landing 1, maybe 2 skills depending on the spec?

Also, burst boon removal (corruption) on an attrition class

“Let’s make the slowest character in the game – but make it a burst class! Call it attrition for fun "

GoogleBrandon.5073:

Also, burst boon removal (corruption) on an attrition class

“Let’s make the slowest character in the game – but make it a burst class! Call it attrition for fun "

Huehue anet design 101.

Nexed you don’t seem to understand the difference, which is that corrupt boon converts boons into conditions whereas other classes merely remove boons. This therefore accounts not only for boon rip but also condition burst.

Seriously a massive L2P issue for so many people here who claim to play necromancer. This gets on my kittens.

Yeah you are right I just must be really confused on the difference between corrupting boons and removing boons….lol.

You are also right I srsly need to l2p but I can’t even understand the simple concept that corrupting boons turns into a condition burst, or that other classes can turn conditions back into boons….wait whatttttt?

Or that the other classes that are removing boons typically aren’t doing it with skills that are solely designed for boon removal, they are stealing boons or bursting the kitten out of you while removing boons.

But again like you said I can’t understand the concept of corrupting

With all due respect Ovid… The forums have always been like this

Plus it is not that people are wrong in their respect, neither are you though, but you are missing a big picture – namely that a Necromancer is an oddity in all places of the game… Well, dunno much about WvWvW zerg fights and GWEN and alll, but hey;

In PvE they are a laughing stock – their “punishment” mechanic was turned into “Boon Corruption” and “Condition Transfers” of which both are so useless they can be regarded as trash…
Blood Magic spells, some of which required health sacrifices to do damage, has turned into “Blood is Power”, and though good for the might stacks, redundant for anything else…
Minions cannot be mastered…
Support… meh

As for PvP – sure, we got 2 builds! Yippee!
Though thematically, what are you? You are either a slow Condi-burst class, or a slow Power Burst class… Yes, we can survive better than some other classes, but the two builds thematically do not fit at all, especially when looking back as to how Necromancer is created, and most certainly when you look at how Anet said Necromancers are an “Attrition class” with no form of attrition aside from Minion Master… Master bwahahaha

Our punishment mechanic, doing damage when the enemy does damage (RIP Spiteful Spirit ) is either so weak in a team fight, since Condition Transfers are somewhat obsolete thanks to Eles, Guards and to a lesser extend Engineers cleansing one another (while Warrior can sustain itself) or so overpowered that it automatically ensures a win (Engineers in a 1v1) – this alone is a sign of how badly designed this class was, the scaling, and though this is a team game, is non-existant…
Same thing with Boon Hate – it is either extremely overpowered in small scaled fights, or completely redundant since it will be reapplied within seconds anyway… enjoy your cooldowns meanwhile because punishment mechanics are bad…

Now not just that, but also designing a class that is inherrintly slow and selfish within a gamemode which requires you to be fast and supportive … What real support do we have? Well of Power? Whooptydoo, force your mates to stand in your Aoe – jolly…

I like my Necromancer, and like most people I’d say I fare rather well whenever I am not half awake – but this class is designed wrong to it’s very core with a wrong mindset of what it should be… Worst offender to this is probably Deathshroud

Yes yes, please continue pretending like you’ve found some magical thing that no one else has ever found and people who have thousands of hours on necro just have no idea how to play. This is definitely why you’ve been on teams winning tournaments left and right. And players who have consistently played at the highest level of PvP since the game was released just don’t know how to play.

This reeks of a certain someone back closer to launch who told us we didn’t know how to use DS and that’s why we were complaining.

LOLOLOLOL this is hilarious. Necros actually think they’re UP when they’re probably the most OP class in the whole game. Necro can literally 1v1 EVERYTHING. You cant even touch a necro without getting 5 seconds minimum passive fear. Its so broken. Necro needs a nerf.

-Teef Teef Teef Teef

Nox Lucis.8341:

After reading this, I decided to go back to PvP after a month’s absence from the scene. Played 3 matches with my Necro, won each time and was the overall top scorer twice. My win/loss ratio (which is entirely on Necro; it is all I use in PvP) is still overwhelmingly positive as always. I look at this, and all I can think is “Wutchu talkin’ ’bout?”

You don’t even exist on the leaderboards, Mister. I’m calling a hotjoin troll. Also – what Bhawb said. Your statement bares no objective value and it still wouldn’t even if you were talking about solo queue, which you aren’t.

@topic: the amount of loaded BS in this thread is just depressing, proves most of the posters have no idea about pvp at decent levels whatsoever and so I am glad I quit playing.

Let me repeat myself once again so maybe another batch of pve heroes learns the truth – necro design is non-universal making necro either fare amazingly or fail miserably depending on number of factors that are by and large out of the necro’s control. This is why some people think necro sucks and others think it’s OP. No one’s right, most of you are painfully short-sighted.

Also Spoj’s still right – necro is comparatively horrible in PvE.

leman.7682:

Let me repeat myself once again so maybe another batch of pve heroes learns the truth – necro design is non-universal making necro either fare amazingly or fail miserably depending on number of factors that are by and large out of the necro’s control. This is why some people think necro sucks and others think it’s OP. No one’s right, most of you are painfully short-sighted.

This is true.
Also, it’s a bummer that you left. Imo you were one of the very few true masters of this class.

leman.7682:

Let me repeat myself once again so maybe another batch of pve heroes learns the truth – necro design is non-universal making necro either fare amazingly or fail miserably depending on number of factors that are by and large out of the necro’s control. This is why some people think necro sucks and others think it’s OP. No one’s right, most of you are painfully short-sighted.

Yes, this is true. The thing is though, although those factors are out of the necro’s control, they’re not random: good opponents will know when a necro is a sitting duck and it’s safe to engage them, and when they’ve got the ability to ruin them and it’s better to run from them. That’s why few top-tier teams run necro: they’re very situational, and their efficacy doesn’t always depend on the player’s skill. (Well it always depends on the player’s skill, but it’s subject to a large extent on factors the player can’t control.)

I don’t want Necro to get more damage, or better escapes, or more protection, or more life force generation. All I want is for Death Shroud to be reworked into something that is available on a more consistent basis, whose efficacy depends on how well I judge the timing of using it, rather than random stuff like how many ranger spirits happened to die within range of my life force generation. I want a baseline effectiveness based on cooldowns like most other professions have (or, if it’s gonna be a build up thing, make it more like warrior’s which is fast to generate and fast to burn down). If we’re not consistently effective in different situations, you can’t establish a baseline so you can figure out if we need a buff or a nerf.

Elitist.8701:

LOLOLOLOL this is hilarious. Necros actually think they’re UP when they’re probably the most OP class in the whole game. Necro can literally 1v1 EVERYTHING. You cant even touch a necro without getting 5 seconds minimum passive fear. Its so broken. Necro needs a nerf.

-Teef Teef Teef Teef

You must be fairly insane to think that any sane Necromancer actually likes passive procs…

Though I agree with you, Necromancer’s, especially the 0/6/4/0/4 spec are ridiculous in 1v1’s at times…

leman.7682:

@topic: the amount of loaded BS in this thread is just depressing, proves most of the posters have no idea about pvp at decent levels whatsoever and so I am glad I quit playing.

Let me repeat myself once again so maybe another batch of pve heroes learns the truth – necro design is non-universal making necro either fare amazingly or fail miserably depending on number of factors that are by and large out of the necro’s control. This is why some people think necro sucks and others think it’s OP. No one’s right, most of you are painfully short-sighted.

Also Spoj’s still right – necro is comparatively horrible in PvE.

The thing is, and though I do not disagree with you that Necromancers have their flaws and strengths, is that Necromancer’s are becomming tiresome…

In my previous comment, I tried stating that Necromancers’ utility are flawed within their design… They wanted to unify the “punishment” mechanics from GW1 – but ultimately this, together with some problems DS and trait synergy gave, led to builds that is not at all what it is designed to be…

Necromancers’, the way I played them in GW1, and the way they were roughly designed in GW2 are all about control… To roughly quote, "the class you cannot get away from, outsustaining a fight – keyword "Attrition""…
Well good and all, but this designed failed within PvP… The combat is too fast paced to make this into reality for a Necromancer to succeed on point, and the control it gets does not scale well against multiple opponents – this is something noticable with Dark Path which chills the target it hits (mind you, this also means clones, minions or spirits if they are hit first) amongst some other skills…
For this reason, many Necromancers have found that the best way to row along within this gamemode, is becomming a burst class – condition or power… Both of these are meant for smaller fights, and are roughly about constant CC’ing, or gaining control with wells, of which one does insane damage if you stand too long in it… The loss in sustain is easily made up for the damage both these builds can do, so you are likely to always win 1v1’s and 2v2’s if you play well…

pt.1

However, if you try to look from a broader scope again, you will see that this class, though meant for “attrition” almost seem to be only made for bursting… Long cooldowns, which can overthrow small scaled fights – or as I would say, control burst, is what is making Necromancer’s extremely powerful in some fights… But none of this does even remotely fit the design…
Look at Epidemic – this skill comes the closes to the old “hit adjecent foes” from GW1, and on paper the most epic skill ever… AoE Condition spread? Freaking awesome!
However, within PvP this skill is such a lackluster compared to the “usual utility bar”, since the burst of a single target (in which said target loses the conditions again) is far superior than loading an enemy up with a lot of conditions which do minor damage, and spread them to all of your foes… Not just that, but a team running a Guardian and Elementalist within a teamfight will ensure this skill becomes obsolete for the next 16 seconds…
Wells are designed for control on a point, this is noticable when you see how big they are, but when you think about it, these things are “horribly designed”… Rather than giving acces to control over the battlefield for a sustained period of time, you use these things in conjuction with CC to once more burst your opponent down… There is no real control, and this is mostly as how the damage scales from Well of Suffering (because it is quite insane) and the Boon Hate scaling in small fights of Well of Corruption (being a lackluster at times in team fights, but overpowering in skirmishes)… Both go paired, because of this, with huge cooldowns, since they can literally change the face of battle…
Corrupt Boon, one of the best utilities we got at this very moment works the exact same way… It is a lackluster in teamfights, since the control you get is simply neglectable of the numerous cleanses that can happen (thus a non-existant punishment mechanic) but immensely overpowered in smaller fights if used correctly…

I do not have a real solution, but what I personally would like to see is more options for field control – not just fears, but pulls, pushes, punishing the enemies for spamming their skills (ala Spiteful Spirit , not Retaliation since there is no AoE control in that)… Instead of bursting Corruptions, give acces to smaller but more frequent corruptions (Path of Corruption is a step in the right direction), paired with an ability to punish those who spam boons (like a Retal for boons or something)… all this, while having the option to sustain ourself more frequently, in the forms of siphons or w/e
Make people regret focussing a Necromancer, but also regret not doing so… Make it the class you can ignore at first, but needded to get rid off at some point, since his control will likely interrupt your team’s synergy more and more
Of course, the damage of the punishment mechanics as we know them now also need to be toned down within this respect, or we would be horribly broken… I would gladly do so to see this class turned into more of a control role than a burst build with a strange niche…
Sadly though, this will likely never happen, since this means a complete overhaul for the class itself – thus Necromancers will always stay within this obscure role they have now, kittening off people in 1v1’s, and kittening off Necromancers in team fights…

For PvE – this is sadly mostly a design with PvE itself… On paper Necromancers sounds awesome for the mode, if not we did not fit in the current effeciency meta… To be useful we either need to have:

• Team damage modifiers that are not Vulnerability
• Reflects
• Frequent sustained AoE or cleaving attacks…
• Frequent Blinds or Protection

And we lack all of those…

we either need to have:
Team damage modifiers that are not Vulnerability
Reflects
Frequent sustained AoE or cleaving attacks…
Frequent Blinds or Protection
And we lack all of those…

Incoming: someone mentioning skills that do exactly that without any consideration for builds or any knowledge of necromancer in pvp.

Btw, if anyone in this thread is taking at face value what some of these guys say about necro being so atrocious, you might be interested in seeing just how few games these guys have even played in pvp (check gw2score) and how low ranked they are, that is if they’re ranked at all. Bhawb, very active on the forums, has a grand total of 85 pvp games.

Talking to the only exception, except for me, Leman:

“Let me repeat myself once again so maybe another batch of pve heroes learns the truth – necro design is non-universal making necro either fare amazingly or fail miserably depending on number of factors that are by and large out of the necro’s control.”

That’s a broad and unclear statement. Does it pertain to pvp? What does it refer to? Should I presume it is about pvp because the topic is on pvp? If so, Necromancers fare well against all classes in 1v1s, so it can’t be about necros faring in 1v1s. What’s out of their control? Oh this must be about pve or something.

Responding to Brandon’s concern about necromancers’ conditions being cleansed too readily to be of use:

In my opinion, condition necromancer is strongest in small fights: 1v1, 2v2 etc. It can be strong in larger team fights if played well, particularly on certain maps where it can free cast from a distance (eg. forest of niflhel mid point). So, if a necromancer wants to feel really useful, rotate properly into smaller fights.

In smaller fights, particularly if the guard isn’t there, the conditions are not cleansed as quickly as you can reapply them. Epidemic is an incredibly strong skill when used in these situations, because it can’t be cleansed immediately.

Responding to manver, another player who hasn’t played necro at a high level, so doesn’t know about it, yet still makes statements about top teams:

“That’s why few top-tier teams run necro: they’re very situational, and their efficacy doesn’t always depend on the player’s skill. (Well it always depends on the player’s skill, but it’s subject to a large extent on factors the player can’t control.)”

So here are a couple of teams: Drunk Harem ran with Prototype, though he generally runs with Team Exaltation, Peanut Butter Jelly Times, Hashtag Brownies, and then there are a couple of others like Life (I believe Ironnical plays with them) and Nonstop Nonsense. Sure lots of teams don’t run necromancer, but imo that’s because of their set up: ie. if you run mesmer+thief combo, you’d rather have guard + ward + ele, all classes that can survive outnumbered for longer than a necro and are a bit more mobile.

GOOD PLAYERS CREATE THE SITUATIONS. So they rotate properly into small fights they have the advantage in. You are correct their efficacy is based on personal skill. Every class has problems with some of their utility skills being on cool down sometimes. I don’t know what other factors you’re talking about?

Again, I think people are playing necromancer badly, and then complaining about the class. Sure it has weaknesses, but it has many incredible strengths.

I agree with you (Brandon).
I played a necro in top100 in GvG in GW1 and my job was so defined, so profound, so responsible I have not found anything that comes any close to it in GW2 even with Anet trying hard.
My job was to constantly draw conditions from allies (mostly deep wound from mid-/backline and weakness from frontline) and send them back to the opponets. I had to use Enfeeble/Oppresive Gaze all the time to hinder their offence, cripple their movements, spread condition pressure and kite them around. I had to sustain myself with Life Siphon as well and manage my energy, position and conditions. All this while usually holding a flag during teamfights.

Anet was lately trying to move necros to that role, which they had stated numerous times. It’s their philosophy for necros to have a support role. Unholy Sanctuary, Unholy Martyr, Plague Signet, Corrosive Poison Cloud, and so on.

The problem is what you describe – these things just don’t work and I believe that to make necro completely viable and good they would not only have to look at DS and survivability (probably changing the design to make them more universal) but also move a bit away from damage design to utility design. I have always believed that this game is too damage oriented, there is damage tied to a grand majority of skills and it causes problems.

Look at the Well of Suffering – remove the damage completely and make it stack vulnerability like crazy. Useful in PvE, WvW, PvP. Not universal, but designed to perform a certain task and fill a role. Do that with most skills in game, with the overall profession viability in mind and see how it goes from there.

I totally don’t have to be a glass cannon that is only supposed to do damage and from time to time feels like being the only reason for a lost match just because it is what it is, but give me tools to play differently and design a game to allow for these various gameplays.

Ovid.7135:

That’s a broad and unclear statement. Does it pertain to pvp? What does it refer to? Should I presume it is about pvp because the topic is on pvp? If so, Necromancers fare well against all classes in 1v1s, so it can’t be about necros faring in 1v1s. What’s out of their control? Oh this must be about pve or something.

I guess sometimes you have to outright point out every single thing to make a statement understandable… Let me rephrase, necros are extremelly reliant on both their team and the opponents. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don’t. I could go on into reasons why but honestly I don’t want to. 4.000 tournies experience speaking. Just that.

Ovid…

Listing the strengths of what a Necromancer can do is never what concerned me at all…

I am well aware of it’s strengths, as I have been actively watching the profession since Beta – I could not play one as it went against my firm love I had for them in GW1…

The concerns about this class are often misinterpret, as I have stated within my 3 huge posts… The class is designed wrong. Period.

Like the Mesmer, this class is exactly the same, but now it comes more in line of what it was; It was a class that made you regret casting skills, it interrupted and stole your precious energy while doing so – you were forced to watch out for Mesmers and Necromancers since they created a depth of play that was never touched upon, namely punishment…

When the classes were in design for this game, there became a unification of a lot of skills that the classes had – some were completely over the top while having the same function (Health Degeneration had a list of skills that could do so)… However, in the design of a Necromancer, I don’t know where they looked at, but they missed the actual design of what a Necromancer is, and came up with an ideoligy which does not fit the class currently, and back then as well, at all…

Attrition is a joke – while most of the traits and the design are absolutely aimed that way…

Whether you can be succesful on a Necromancer or not does not take away the failed design this class has to cope with…

Also calling out Bhawb on his PvP experience is a bold move of yours… Not only has he contributed more than you could ever dream off despite his experience, but he has a ton more knowledge than you, or almost anyone within this thread… Same thing with Spoj, who has vastly more knowledge about the inner design of a Necromancer, it’s strengths and weaknesses than you can imagine, yet is a PvE’er at heart… Simply looking at their scores and saying “they are scrubs” is a fairly narcissistic statement…
You do not have to be on top of the LB’s to be right – if anything, on rare occasions those people on the top have no clue what they are on about themselves… The design of the Necromancer is at fault here, and if you are just willing to “discuss” it with those who are on the top of the LB’s, then I would politely ask you to leave since it means you are not open for discussion

leman.7682:

I agree with you.
I played a necro in top100 in GvG in GW1 and my job was so defined, so profound, so responsible I have not found anything that comes any close to it in GW2 even with Anet trying hard.
My job was to constantly draw conditions from allies (mostly deep wound from mid-/backline and weakness from frontline) and send them back to the opponets. I had to use Enfeeble/Oppresive Gaze all the time to hinder their offence, cripple their movements, spread condition pressure and kite them around. I had to sustain myself with Life Siphon as well and manage my energy, position and conditions. All this while usually holding a flag during teamfights.

Anet was lately trying to move necros to that role, which they had stated numerous times. It’s their philosophy for necros to have a support role. Unholy Sanctuary, Unholy Martyr, Plague Signet, Corrosive Poison Cloud, and so on.

The problem is what you describe – these things just don’t work and I believe that to make necro completely viable and good they would not only have to look at DS and survivability (probably changing the design to make them more universal) but also move a bit away from damage design to utility design. I have always believed that this game is too damage oriented, there is damage tied to a grand majority of skills and it causes problems.

Look at the Well of Suffering – remove the damage completely and make it stack vulnerability like crazy. Useful in PvE, WvW, PvP. Not universal, but designed to perform a certain task and fill a role. Do that with most skills in game, with the overall profession viability in mind and see how it goes from there.

I totally don’t have to be a glass cannon that is only supposed to do damage and from time to time feels like being the only reason for a lost match just because it is what it is, but give me tools to play differently and design a game to allow for these various gameplays.

This is mostly the sentiment I share… I was not much into GW1 PvP, but in PvE I had a distinct role! I knew what I had to do, and I knew what my class was designed for… in GW2 however, I am faceless and just a tool for quick damage…

Like you say, this game focusses too much on damage, and this is absolutely true… There are but little utilities which are actual utilities – tools to change direction of a battlefield, making people think twice about their positioning (since comming too close to a corrupted ally might get you diseased) etc.

Though not all is lost – a lot of traits and utilites are aimed indeed as you say in the right way – you can with some fine-tuning and tweaking get a Necromancer a role which is uniqe to the game, namely control… Like take Epidemic;

Epidemic :Apply vulnerability on yourself. Spread conditions on a target foe to all nearby foes.

Why not have it doe the following:

Apply Epidemic on the foe; For the next 3-5 seconds draw conditions to the target. Conditions cannot be applied by skills or utilities. Upon end, apply the conditions to nearby foes.

Now the enemy target has a choice; stay in combat and ultimately be a ticking time bomb, or retreat from battle, giving your team a disadvantage as well, but not risking a condition bomb.
Not just that, but for the team which runs Epidemc, you get to count on it’s control – immobilize him before applying Epidemic, and suddenly you get control in battle as soon as it goes off…

I do think Anet is trying with the right things at the moment, and I do see potential for Necromancer’s to get somewhat of a new role, but I fear that Necromancers will become extremely powerful in small scaled fights as well – especially if you take their current power into mind

@Brandon:

“Also calling out Bhawb on his PvP experience is a bold move of yours… Not only has he contributed more than you could ever dream off despite his experience, but he has a ton more knowledge than you, or almost anyone within this thread… Same thing with Spoj, who has vastly more knowledge about the inner design of a Necromancer, it’s strengths and weaknesses than you can imagine, yet is a PvE’er at heart… Simply looking at their scores and saying “they are scrubs” is a fairly narcissistic statement…
You do not have to be on top of the LB’s to be right – if anything, on rare occasions those people on the top have no clue what they are on about themselves… The design of the Necromancer is at fault here, and if you are just willing to “discuss” it with those who are on the top of the LB’s, then I would politely ask you to leave since it means you are not open for discussion”

My comments are all in response to the thread’s main post and title: gg pvp. I have commented upon the viability of necromancers in pvp, hence why I’ll call out people who don’t play pvp making comments about pvp. I haven’t called anyone scrubs. It’s important to remember this post is about pvp. Saying that some people have more knowledge than I could imagine is a joke. Misguided hero-worship.

This thread is not about the design of necromancers as whole, even if that’s what you want to talk about. I can completely understand your disappointment with the philosophy of necromancers and their play type. I’m not arguing for or against that, but merely responding to OP, which is about necromancers’ place in pvp. Instead, I’d ask you to keep on topic.

@Leman: “I guess sometimes you have to outright point out every single thing to make a statement understandable” – your statement was far too general to be helpful. Not the fault of the reader, but your fault. Your re-phrasing is more clear, and is a less general statement than your original, and can actually open up the possibility for a response.

I agree that necromancers are extremely reliant on their team, but I don’t think that’s necessarily bad. I disagree that they are extremely reliant on their opponents. If you went into the reasons why you think the way you do, then we could explore this further.

@The epidemic re-work: Conditions cannot be applied by skills or utilities to whom? To the guy marked? How many conditions does he draw each second from his allies? If the guy is marked, surely he could just cleanse those conditions before the timer goes off and then the epidemic is useless. I see no large difference between then and now, and the surprise element of condi transfer by instant epidemic more tide-turning in a battle.

Whether the topic is PvP or not – you decided to antagonize those who have little experience in PvP, and this is absurd to do so whether you agree with it or not… You literally call them out on their scores and imply that “they have no knowledge of how things work” – and frankly, there has been little reason for most to even have many tournaments played on the board… Or are you going to say that people like Leeto do not have enough experience in TeamQ as well, so can never formulate a decent opinion? I can assure you that though he has played more Solo than TeamQ on GW2score, that he has a better understanding of this game, the class and whatnot then you – granted, he did not partake within this discussion, but I would warn you where you decide to belittle people…

The class is uniformly bad designed – this includes PvP as well… The people you belittle are as entitled to give their opinions or feedback as you are, and if you are not willing to listen to them “because they did not play in the higher end of PvP” you are in the wrong here, and not them…
This is a discussion forum, not a “My rooster is bigger than yours”… If you have had succes with Necromancer in high end PvP – good for you… I know plenty who do, and plenty who had in the past, but discuss with those what is wrong with Necromancer and suddenly they can all wind it up to the same…

Coherrent issues with how the class is designed and how it is played out in PvP gives Necromancers are role within the said gamemode that does not fit the class, does not fit the player and thus aggitates those who play it – sure you can do well, but if you look from it with a broader perspective you will notice why these people are actually complaining

This thread started as a ventilation for Moa, though a respectable Necromancer, he was wrong here – Necromancers are somewhat fine within the gamemode… Are Necromancers fine? , no they are not… far from it…

Besides, these are the forums, not a jolly wacky crew of high-end players to please each other – here you will find a collection of people who are opinionated, like to let their voices be heard and are open about it… It will always stay this way, whether you like it or not…
Complaints are everywhere, and not reserved for Necromancer (I could make millions about Warrior and it’s design), and if you cannot handle those who give their opinion, this is not the place for you…

OP needs to learn to play Necromancer.