Guild Wars 2

Muchacho.2390:

You know that even with all that warriors are more mobile, more tanky and have better access to stability then necros. And dont forget necros are supposed to be in the fight like warriors and guardians. And in theory necros have even the highest stability time if traited properly. The problem however is that this scenario is so unlikely.
-And has a cd of 180 seconds, which limits the elite too much (though the cd is probably justified).
-One could argue that necros need vigor. Though i am not sure if vigor is something necros really need. Stability in the other hand should be available in more necro builds then in only one…

One could argue that necro’s (traited and armed properly) can be just as tanky as warriors and guardians – so much so, that its neck-to-neck. I just got out of PvP and was facing Glass (every class) zerkers, and Tank (all classes) bunkers, and errythin in between, I’ve lasted through all their CD’s and near won every 1v1 (until it became a 2v1 – however sometimes I won those ).

Well timed blinds (LIMITED AS THEY MAY BE) and dodges make the win; However what’s great about the Necro is it’s ability to dish out conditions in seconds – also, condition transferring. I don’t even buff my condition much with my build, but I utilize every move to keep the enemy bleeding in some way or another at all times – even when they stealth and Idk where they are. Necro has good aoe’s and “tricks” that make defensive-agressive play style very accessible.

What does limit the Necro, however, is that we can’t just press 2 buttons for half our dps, I mean.. we can, but not in such an easy way suchas: [Mistform],[stone armor(?)],[berserker stance],[endure pain], [whatever elixer](hopefully you know the rest, cuz Idk them all :p ) – a different tactic is necessary to handle these simpleton builds nowadays, and risk is a big part of it (meaning taking hits and doing without stability is sometimes just the way to go).

And I don’t mean to sound like I’m bragging in the first part. Every match is simply a test of my skill and the build itself; and I’m just pleased with the results is all. I’m also not saying my build is the way to go, because I saw plenty other competitive necros as well. (mine just most often won (in fair, 1v1 scenarios ^^).

One last thing, Lich Form is also a fun stability move. But I understand the diversity in opinion concerning that one.

Lich might be a fun stability move, but the second you are against a thief/mesmer/necro you’re boned. I can’t tell you how many other necros I’ve totally screwed over by corrupting/removing their stability then hard CCing them into oblivion.

Krude.7495:

One could argue that necro’s (traited and armed properly) can be just as tanky as warriors and guardians – so much so, that its neck-to-neck. I just got out of PvP and was facing Glass (every class) zerkers, and Tank (all classes) bunkers, and errythin in between, I’ve lasted through all their CD’s and near won every 1v1 (until it became a 2v1 – however sometimes I won those ).

All profession (maybe exept thieves) can build themself to be tanky as warriors and guardians. But thats not the point. It is also not about 1v1 or 2v1 in which necros are not that bad.

This is about stability. And i stand to my opinion that professions that are supposed to stay in fight (and necromancer a amoung those professions) need stablity without heavy traiting or blowing elites. And it should be a longer duration with a long cd…

zapv.8051:

LOL I build craft constantly so telling me which skills the necro has, and what their utility is makes me laugh. Dark path is a teleport to a target, which is ok when fighting, but terrible for escape. Spectral walk is an amazing skill that I actually trait for, but its functionality is limited, and most of the time it still won’t allow you to get away from smart players. Flesh worm is 1200 range, you have to have it presummoned, and make sure no one kills it. In WvW where I play it isn’t worth it. A light armor class should have the heaviest access to stability because unlike warriors and gaurdians, we don’t have invulnerabilities, or blocks, and have to work way to hard to make the movement skills we have worth while. Furthermore, we don’t have evades skills, or stealth like ever other light and medium armor class. That is why we need stability, our in combat movement is terrible, or out of combat movement is subpar, and we don’t have good(i.e. instant) teleports and evades.

Especially comparing us to a warrior though is absurd. Warriors run one weapon, and have great damage and great mobility (greatsword is actually the highest dps warrior build again).

Again, I realize plague is a skill, but 20 seconds of blind spam is not equivalent to good defense, or sustain. It makes me question why you think you can bring up a 180 second cooldown elite as “perfect defense.” It is one of the best elites in the game don’t get me wrong, but you can’t call something with that high of a cooldown the perfect defense.

To your last point, classes should not have to spec into specific runes, and traits to get things every other class has. Every other class has access to vigor, but necros don’t. Another example is with mesmers, they are the only class that has almost no access to run speed bonuses. They shouldn’t have to spend gold on runes to reach a reasonable run speed. That kills build diversity while also leaving one class in the dust. Giving necros better access to stability would allow us to sit in the pocket without getting cc chained to death which is what happens now. It would allow the class to prevent being focused so much in pvp, and open up tanking builds that didn’t center on 30 in soul reaping.

Ok, you know the skills, but did you know after exiting Plague (early), you still have the stability? Perhaps “perfect” is saying a bit much, but anything that gives response-time is all it can take for a skilled player. MM’s for example have quite the advantage of hiding behind their minions, condimancers have the advantage of high vitality + condition damage, and hybrids have their own strengths and weaknesses as well. That being said Plague can fit in with those builds just fine.

- I also can’t really defend some moves in WvW, because mobility is nice; and with flesh worm I’d definitely agree, it has no place in it. I am also more of a victory or death play style, so retreating isn’t always the best option for me.

Again, I will mention Plague Signet. (theoretically)There’s your first stun-break, and second, you have spectral walk (according to you); there’s your life-force needed to fear/blind/DS (or whatever works) and last another few seconds (giving you time to respond) <- My strategy is: plague signet, well of vulnerability, and spectral grasp (not always in that order) – just to add a more unique/difficult play style. Even if SG doesn’t pull, the extra life-force is much appreciated. (and spectral armor will activate at 50% health – with the 20 in soul reaping that I run.)

A specific thing that I like about GW2 and class diversity is that most skills available to each class, and the ways they can be empowered/traited makes sense. Ele’s have their ways of getting stability, and so do Necro’s and Mesmers – seems fair to me.

As for mobility, necro has perfectly decent access to swiftness, not so much with dashing attacks such as many other classes, but that makes sense, concerning the concept of the Necromancer – raiser of monsters, plaguer of conditions, inflicter of fear and corrupter of boons and statuses. (’nuf of that..)

Lastly, runes are the finishing touches to a build, it’s the finishing polish; and it’s also not the only way to “have what other classes have” – which isn’t even the point of the classes. So I would completely disagree and say that it definitely does increase build diversity. What ele runs Nightmare runes? and What engineer uses Traveler runes? Build diversity is very difficult to attain when the amount of exhibited, differentiated builds are so limited and rarely shared with many people. (because many people who theory craft their builds have pride in being different – myself included)

Bhawb.7408:

Lich might be a fun stability move, but the second you are against a thief/mesmer/necro you’re boned. I can’t tell you how many other necros I’ve totally screwed over by corrupting/removing their stability then hard CCing them into oblivion.

I feels ya Bhawb. Just figured I’d bring it up, that new move-set can still be very effective if used efficiently. (takes skill, just like anything else)

Muchacho.2390:

Krude.7495:

One could argue that necro’s (traited and armed properly) can be just as tanky as warriors and guardians – so much so, that its neck-to-neck. I just got out of PvP and was facing Glass (every class) zerkers, and Tank (all classes) bunkers, and errythin in between, I’ve lasted through all their CD’s and near won every 1v1 (until it became a 2v1 – however sometimes I won those ).

All profession (maybe exept thieves) can build themself to be tanky as warriors and guardians. But thats not the point. It is also not about 1v1 or 2v1 in which necros are not that bad.

This is about stability. And i stand to my opinion that professions that are supposed to stay in fight (and necromancer a amoung those professions) need stablity without heavy traiting or blowing elites. And it should be a longer duration with a long cd…

I agree/understand Necro’s need to stay in a fight, and I’m saying its doable without stability. But I’ll give in, you have your right to your opinion; and I also won’t complain if they make stability easier to get. It’ll just be a new way to adapt and that’s cool

Krude.7495:

zapv.8051:

snip

Ok, you know the skills, but did you know after exiting Plague (early), you still have the stability? Perhaps “perfect” is saying a bit much, but anything that gives response-time is all it can take for a skilled player. MM’s for example have quite the advantage of hiding behind their minions, condimancers have the advantage of high vitality + condition damage, and hybrids have their own strengths and weaknesses as well. That being said Plague can fit in with those builds just fine.

- I also can’t really defend some moves in WvW, because mobility is nice; and with flesh worm I’d definitely agree, it has no place in it. I am also more of a victory or death play style, so retreating isn’t always the best option for me.

Again, I will mention Plague Signet. (theoretically)There’s your first stun-break, and second, you have spectral walk (according to you); there’s your life-force needed to fear/blind/DS (or whatever works) and last another few seconds (giving you time to respond) <- My strategy is: plague signet, well of vulnerability, and spectral grasp (not always in that order) – just to add a more unique/difficult play style. Even if SG doesn’t pull, the extra life-force is much appreciated. (and spectral armor will activate at 50% health – with the 20 in soul reaping that I run.)

A specific thing that I like about GW2 and class diversity is that most skills available to each class, and the ways they can be empowered/traited makes sense. Ele’s have their ways of getting stability, and so do Necro’s and Mesmers – seems fair to me.

As for mobility, necro has perfectly decent access to swiftness, not so much with dashing attacks such as many other classes, but that makes sense, concerning the concept of the Necromancer – raiser of monsters, plaguer of conditions, inflicter of fear and corrupter of boons and statuses. (’nuf of that..)

Lastly, runes are the finishing touches to a build, it’s the finishing polish; and it’s also not the only way to “have what other classes have” – which isn’t even the point of the classes. So I would completely disagree and say that it definitely does increase build diversity. What ele runs Nightmare runes? and What engineer uses Traveler runes? Build diversity is very difficult to attain when the amount of exhibited, differentiated builds are so limited and rarely shared with many people. (because many people who theory craft their builds have pride in being different – myself included)

No leaving plague early removes the stability as you can test by pressing your elite twice. I would be very happy if this was the case because half the time I need to leave plague early, but unfortunately it isn’t. Every build has advantages obviously, warrior healing signet builds for instance have absurd regen, decap engineers have knockback. Plague does work pretty well for all of these builds.

Other classes don’t have to run 2 stun breaks to be effective because they have blocks, stealth, invulns, and dodges. We have to sacrifice our other great utilities so we aren’t cc chained.

Ele’s have mist form, and great mobility (although they are currently still underpowered often in survivability). Mesmers have invulns, reflects, vigor, and stealth, so equating our stability access to theirs is kind of ridiculous.

Simply put necros swiftness access is difficult compared to other classes. Spectral walk traited is amazing don’t get me wrong, but warhorn often slows you down ooc more than it speeds you up. Even then you have to invest in boon duration if you want perma swiftness that other classes get easily.

Runes are not the finishing touches to a build. The runeset your running is incredibly significant to your build. Runes of perplexity, balthazar, nightmare, and strength are often build defining. Sacrificing stats, and effects for swiftness, or vigor is extremely significant to your build. Saying otherwise is ludicrous to me. Build diversity is limited because of what works, and how lazy people are and nothing else. Many people never change builds because they are way to lazy, and say what they have works and don’t feel like changing it. The people who do actively build craft or even adjust to the meta use what is best. Currently as you can see in the tournament necros get focused down very easily because they lack easy access to stability. Very good necros have described necros as being completely dependent on their teammates to survive because they don’t have sustain, stability, active blinks, stealth, invulnerability, block, or vigor. Simply put until necros get stability, sustain, and more viable power weapons they will be forced to spec completely for damage in high level play. That isn’t build diversity. As for hot join, or spvp I could probably run any build and do alright because it isn’t competitive. WvW is similar.

I just want to clarify one thing. Actually you can stomp from death shroud, so you can use stability from death shroud to stomp…

Indeed you can. In fact if we had more traits of varying power and accessibility that gave us stability like FitG did, we wouldn’t need this thread at all…

Ok, I’m mistaken on Plague (stab lasting after early exit). (I don’t even use it. . except when underwater obviously.) I’d much rather boon rip with spinal shivers and then golem charge them when they least expect it/or to secure the kill.
And again, yes ele’s and mesmers have some advantageous skills, but they correspond to the idea of the class – after all is said and done though, Necro’s have higher vit and a “second health bar” to make up for some “shortcomings” (I would call them different playstyle intents).

I’m not even saying the necro NEEDS two stun breaks, but for one who like’s playing defensively I’d say it’s doable. I run one stun break, and that’s all I need. Ele’s can mist form all they want, it doesn’t stop the inevitable (their health is so frickin’ low). As for mesmers, they can be tough, but their moves are just as tactically demanding as Necro’s DS and utilities are. Some could argue that its easier for mesmers – I wouldn’t entirely disagree, but skill is definitely required for dominating victories.
[]Also, I don’t run war horn, so I’m not in much of a position to defend it. Same goes for spectral walk (tho I do use it in WvW, not in PvP); and from a WvW perspective I run mad king runes so.. spectral walk is just for the swiftness and life force, it’s pretty obvious what it’s for: Kiting, chasing, running, tricking (porting back and tricking the unperceptive player)
[]And really? runes are not the finishing touch? What difference is there in being definitive, or the finishing touch? (sounds the same to me, considering they simply-put, ALTER your finished build’s stats. seems like a finishing touch to me.) Moving on, sacrifice is necessary, and few people seem to be embracing it – choosing to stick with condition-mancers, minion-mancers, lifeblast-mancers, and spectral-mancers. There’s not enough expansive creativity within the necromancer community and those who do propose different ideas (like me) get very little shine + acceptance. I also rarely see much variety in Necro builds, so wherever these active theory-crafting necros are, I’m just not seein/reading about/watching them..
[]Necros now have (some more) good accessibility to group healing abilities, but I’ve yet to see someone try speccing into that.
Also most tank-necros I see are either MM or life-force/spectral builds.. not much creativity there. I made a corruption/well build and that was not too bad (cudda used more tweaking, but I much prefer my current build).
-What stability really comes down to is being a crutch. A crutch that I believe, necro’s don’t need. We have it, and for some it’s just what’s needed – but that doesn’t mean its ALL we need. Stomping may be fun + gratifying, but a necro is also very capable of wrecking the enemy’s hp and eliminating him even faster that way.
#TheStruggleIsReal

while you cant rez in it lich form and plague both provide stability for their entire durations and plaque provides the highest toughness bonus in the entire game. so you cant rez in them but they are both insanely long stability and one offers defensive bonuses and the other jumps your power and precision to insane levels. dont complain just because your class has different perks than other classes

“Just food for thought. When the question was asked which 3 professions needed the most help players did state 1)ele 2) Ranger 3) Necro. "

WUT?
Link please.

I just made necro my main is engi, haven’t tried everything yet but class not seem to have som “useless kitten” in his traits or utilies, yes there are a few in each class, but it’s on ok lvl, but engi had huge ammount of nefrs with slight buffs, what make it pretty good for pvp but sucks in large-scale battles.

Hvaran.6327:

“Just food for thought. When the question was asked which 3 professions needed the most help players did state 1)ele 2) Ranger 3) Necro. "

WUT?
Link please.

I just made necro my main is engi, haven’t tried everything yet but class not seem to have som “useless kitten” in his traits or utilies, yes there are a few in each class, but it’s on ok lvl, but engi had huge ammount of nefrs with slight buffs, what make it pretty good for pvp but sucks in large-scale battles.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Vote-for-the-Profession-Collaborative-Development/page/27#post3636880

There is the vote, I’m not gonna go find the where they tallied them, but necros where third with engis 4th. I would also like to note you just made a necro, and therefore have no idea what the class needs in terms of balance. Seemingly you have played an engi for a while, so can probably address their issues better. I don’t want to be rude, but your first impressions of a class is very rarely accurate.

Rangerdeity.5847:

while you cant rez in it lich form and plague both provide stability for their entire durations and plaque provides the highest toughness bonus in the entire game. so you cant rez in them but they are both insanely long stability and one offers defensive bonuses and the other jumps your power and precision to insane levels. dont complain just because your class has different perks than other classes

Well technically you can rez in lich form, plague, and death shroud, you just have to be absurdly quick and press the res then transform button in far less than a second. Also, you really shouldn’t use something that is on a 180 second cooldown as an argument for attrition. Plague is a great skill, but in pvp it is easy to avoid, and it is really only useful for group fights where necros accel anyway.
The problem with necros is that they aren’t really the best at the things that matter, but are really only good at a few other things overall (also this is the necro forum we are here to talk about how to improve the class and make it balanced). The things necros are good or best at:
Beating other condition classes (as seen in TOL not really needed)
Boon removal (best or second best at this, but there are so many spammable boons on the classes that run boon heavy builds it isn’t as useful as it could be)
Single target Condition damage (behind engineer, warrior, and probably thief too due to the nerfs to many of our bleeds, terror, and more dhummfire twice)
AOE condition damage (probably the best at this if not right behind engis)
Soft CC (probably the best at this with chill, and cripple).

Generally speaking those are the things necros are known for, but they aren’t needed enough to make necros good. Furthermore, necros are at the bottom or the worst at many of the things that are needed the most.

In combat speed (easily the worst way behind every other class)
Out of combat speed (Second worst behind mesmers).
Sustain (not terrible in general, but have to make too many sacrifices to get the damage necessary to be even semi-viable)
Countering cc (Again, necros can’t run 3 stun breaks or they lose to much damage, they also can’t run 6 in soul reaping or they once again loose to much damage).
Power builds (necros have good damaging power builds, but suffer from low movement and escape mechanisms making them unviable in serious play)
Group support (wells wouldn’t be terrible if people couldn’t just walk out of them, but even with wells you aren’t tanky enough have long cooldowns and don’t provide as much as almost every other classes support).

The 5 things I just listed are way more important then the things necros are good at.

@zapv.8051 We are the best at aoe condi just because of epidemic.
We are actually kinda meh in terms of total boon removal strength, but we have it in a strong burst (which means nothing in pve and is destructive as all hell in pvp)
Our single target condi damage is still the best, tho engies have a more destructive teamfight kitten nal for pvp (thus why the very old now engie+necro meta was a thing)
We do have quite a nice amount of out of combat movement speed, nice and balanced
As for countering cc, its not so much that we cant, but that what does counter cc for us makes us worthless in a utility sense (even a 3 stun break 30sr necro does a lot of power damage, its just that it doesnt help actually get it off with our cast times+even worse team utility than normal).

Also i dont think you can put power builds as another issue since they arent, its said sustain and resistance to cc which are just some factors of power builds, we got overall ok scaling and high base damage just atrocious total dps over longer time frames because of cooldown+cast time (just one is enough *cough 8-20s skills which do more than WoC and WoS together in same time frame).

zapv.8051:

Hvaran.6327:

“Just food for thought. When the question was asked which 3 professions needed the most help players did state 1)ele 2) Ranger 3) Necro. "

WUT?
Link please.

I just made necro my main is engi, haven’t tried everything yet but class not seem to have som “useless kitten” in his traits or utilies, yes there are a few in each class, but it’s on ok lvl, but engi had huge ammount of nefrs with slight buffs, what make it pretty good for pvp but sucks in large-scale battles.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Vote-for-the-Profession-Collaborative-Development/page/27#post3636880

There is the vote, I’m not gonna go find the where they tallied them, but necros where third with engis 4th. I would also like to note you just made a necro, and therefore have no idea what the class needs in terms of balance. Seemingly you have played an engi for a while, so can probably address their issues better. I don’t want to be rude, but your first impressions of a class is very rarely accurate.

I’m still a huge noob in this class, i’m not making statements, it’s just mostly first impression of playing it bymyself after watching and learning class from a side for mostly 1 type of gameplay.

But in gvg or large-scale wvw necros got pretty good spot, I’m mostly thinking of priority that anet should put in efforts and in that terms i see
1. Ranger.
2. Engi.
3. Mesmer/theif

but even with my low knowledge in this class i still agree with u the last bad points of necro that u listed in your message, especially in movement, sustain and counter CC.

Hvaran.6327:

zapv.8051:

Hvaran.6327:

“Just food for thought. When the question was asked which 3 professions needed the most help players did state 1)ele 2) Ranger 3) Necro. "

WUT?
Link please.

I just made necro my main is engi, haven’t tried everything yet but class not seem to have som “useless kitten” in his traits or utilies, yes there are a few in each class, but it’s on ok lvl, but engi had huge ammount of nefrs with slight buffs, what make it pretty good for pvp but sucks in large-scale battles.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Vote-for-the-Profession-Collaborative-Development/page/27#post3636880

There is the vote, I’m not gonna go find the where they tallied them, but necros where third with engis 4th. I would also like to note you just made a necro, and therefore have no idea what the class needs in terms of balance. Seemingly you have played an engi for a while, so can probably address their issues better. I don’t want to be rude, but your first impressions of a class is very rarely accurate.

I’m still a huge noob in this class, i’m not making statements, it’s just mostly first impression of playing it bymyself after watching and learning class from a side for mostly 1 type of gameplay.

But in gvg or large-scale wvw necros got pretty good spot, I’m mostly thinking of priority that anet should put in efforts and in that terms i see
1. Ranger.
2. Engi.
3. Mesmer/theif

but even with my low knowledge in this class i still agree with u the last bad points of necro that u listed in your message, especially in movement, sustain and counter CC.

“I’m not making statements”

makes a statement

I can agree with what you’re saying to an extent but necros need some major help in some major areas like PVE and high level PVP.

Necros are good in one small area of WvW, therefore despite the fact that we aren’t wanted at all in PvE and very rarely in PvP, we must be fine.

Right.