Guild Wars 2

Roe.3679:

Lily.1935:

A strawman argument is when someone misrepresents an argument to make it easier to knock down. I didn’t create a strawman of anyone’s argument at all. Please refrain from taking low blows especially when you don’t understand the context of what it is you are saying.

Like you just did, by insinuating that shouts may be unnecessary because of new F skills that could mimic orders?

I didn’t insinuate anything. That, what you are doing right now is a strawman.

Lily.1935:

Roe.3679:

Lily.1935:

A strawman argument is when someone misrepresents an argument to make it easier to knock down. I didn’t create a strawman of anyone’s argument at all. Please refrain from taking low blows especially when you don’t understand the context of what it is you are saying.

Like you just did, by insinuating that shouts may be unnecessary because of new F skills that could mimic orders?

I didn’t insinuate anything. That, what you are doing right now is a strawman.

Lily.1935:

Combine this with the idea that our f2-5 could be filled with new ways to use life force, such as orders, shouts become redundant for us, let alone don’t work well with out promised weapon.

So this isn’t you saying shouts would be redundant because of reasons you made up and dont really make sense, followed by you saying that skills we haven’t seen don’t mix with other skills we haven’t seen?

I’m building strawmen?

Roe.3679:

So then we are on the same page that spirits are not unique.

And necromancers are the only profession with wells up until chronomancer. I don’t see the point in that distinction.

Roe.3679:

Lily.1935:

I also hinted at orders in that very same post I mentioned the spirits in suggesting we don’t know how our base mechanic might change. Further elaborating in the next post with the addition of orders. With taking into consideration how our mechanic might change we can’t be certain that shouts wouldn’t be redundant.

Why would they make F skills similar to shouts? F skills are almost entirely selfish skills across all classes. This makes 0 sense.

Except for virtues, many Engineer tool belt skills and many pets which support allies. And its hard to argue that elementalist’s attunment are inharintly selfish in nature, especially with one attunment almost entirely dedicated to party support.

Its also speculation, we can’t know for sure. Not until its revealed.

Lily.1935:

I only mentioned PvE in passing, but the post was also about PvP possibilities which I didn’t go into any detail about I’ll admit. Considering the strength of turrets in the past and major roles they don’t currently fill in that meta that spirts in GW1 did, this only supports my case.

Roe.3679:

Since we both know that spirits already exist in GW2, and we know that they had a brief period of being OP before being nerfed into oblivion, I’d say your case is weak. Turrets were also nerfed. Again, spirits seem like a PVE only buff and that’s not how ANet balances.

What makes it a weak argument? Spirits are getting worked on as we speak, so I don’t see how this is a weak argument at all. Spirits along with every summon has a built in weakness as a stop gap, sure but this doesn’t mean they’ll be OP or weak. As for PvE? This really depends on how arena net plans to implement the spirits.

Lily.1935:

Shouts currently in GW2 do not have the complexity for deeper support. And since Arena net has gone on record in saying they don’t want to increase complexity too much so that its easier to watch and understand this prevents something like shouts from doing something too complicated. Shouts don’t generally have a animation they have a bit of voice acting, sure but this means that any sort of support they can provide will be limited to the basic UI we currently see them doing. Conditions and boons.

Shouts don’t need to be complicated, in fact that’s what makes them desirable.

Not to mention that our elites are stuck in transformation boxes, and our heals are either useless or long casts. Shouts fix those problems.
[/quote]

Consume condition is one of the best heals in the game. That isn’t even debatable, it actually is extremely powerful. The others don’t compare, but that’s a separate issue we aren’t discussing.

And for us, a shout wouldn’t provide enough. You either get amazing offensive shouts which leaves us with the problem of not providing party support or you get supportive shouts that can’t achieve anything that other professions don’t already provide. I explained their limitations and the necromancer needs allot more then what they can provide.

Lily.1935:

Spirits on the other hand can have a very unique look to each of them letting them have a visual idea of what those spirits will do. This gives players the ability to counter play the spirits and target specific ones and understand what buffs they give. A spectator could also identify the spirits and have an easier time understanding just what it is they are doing. You could have a spirit with a shield and suddenly the spectator without ever playing the game knows that the spirit is providing some kind or protective ability.

This doesn’t even make sense to me. So a spectator has to watch the players and the AI? And doesn’t this just highlight how easy it is to destroy AI? We already have a very similar playstyle in minions, and this playstyle doesn’t succeed at all in PvP. Shouts on the other hand are instant and impossible to counter because of it.[/quote]

Actually, a spectator can’t usually see UI. Not AI, UI. User interface. Shouts are UI intensive skills. This means that they can’t provide the sort of buffs that we’d need to stand up against multiple foes without adding hidden UI. And spirits play nothing like minions. Having come from GW1, I can tell you that a minion master and a spirit spammer are like night and day.

You seem to be assuming that they’ll automatically be terrible without any real evidence to back it up. And as I’ve said before, we can’t be certain. What I do know is Spirits fill a niche not yet in GW2, provide us with buffs that simple boons can’t provide, and function far better for more interesting play and counter play.

Roe.3679:

Lily.1935:

Roe.3679:

Lily.1935:

A strawman argument is when someone misrepresents an argument to make it easier to knock down. I didn’t create a strawman of anyone’s argument at all. Please refrain from taking low blows especially when you don’t understand the context of what it is you are saying.

Like you just did, by insinuating that shouts may be unnecessary because of new F skills that could mimic orders?

I didn’t insinuate anything. That, what you are doing right now is a strawman.

Lily.1935:

Combine this with the idea that our f2-5 could be filled with new ways to use life force, such as orders, shouts become redundant for us, let alone don’t work well with out promised weapon.

So this isn’t you saying shouts would be redundant because of reasons you made up and dont really make sense, followed by you saying that skills we haven’t seen don’t mix with other skills we haven’t seen?

I’m building strawmen?

I also said we can’t be sure of it. A very important note you intentionally left out. That is a strawman.

I don’t really get the argument that spirits are somehow more complex than shouts. Because they have more limitations? Your criticism of shouts is focused on current in-game functionalities, when it’s clear from the specs we’ve seen that they are keen on adding new layers to the different skill types.

For a class hamstrung by long cast times and a lack of stability, a set of instant cast abilities look very desirable to me.

It sounds like you’re trying to put gw1 into GW2. Spirits and minions in GW2 are pretty similar. Cast, then play, activating some active skill every now and then. That and every AI build has been nerfed, and it is very clear that further AI builds will not solve anything. Turrets and clone death builds are inckuded here. Plus, do you really believe that they will give us even more AI? Seems to me that Revenant would be more likely, thematically, to get spirits. They literally already channel spirits.

Consume conditions is weak because it has over a 1 second cast and is stupid easy to interrupt. Every class out of the PvP meta has long cast heals. Every class in the meta has uninterruptable (or close to it) heals. Since all of our uninterruptable heals are heals over time, they are useless because of death shroud. Therefore, an instant shout heal is really important.

I never mentioned wells being unique. You did, however, mention that spirits were unique.

As far as F skills, yes, guardians can give some support, but that’s only half of what virtues do. Tool belt skills being supportive is mostly limited to elixirs Only, so I don’t think k that this counts as many. Pets can give limited boons or debuffs, but that isn’t their main purpose as a mechanic. My point stands, F skills are mostly selfish, even in the profession that is focused the most around group support.

Knox.8462:

I don’t really get the argument that spirits are somehow more complex than shouts. Because they have more limitations? Your criticism of shouts is focused on current in-game functionalities, when it’s clear from the specs we’ve seen that they are keen on adding new layers to the different skill types.

For a class hamstrung by long cast times and a lack of stability, a set of instant cast abilities look very desirable to me.

my argument is multi layered. I have dozens of reasons for why Spirits are just a better fit then shouts. My Criticism of shouts is they are designed not to be very UI intensive. Which currently, the necromancer is lacking in major defensive areas such as mobility, stability, stealth, invulnerability, blocks, projectile destruction. A Shout is ultimately limited by the simple UI system Arena has worked so hard to create. Giving shouts greater defensive functions goes heavily against their philosophy and greater defenses is something we desperately need. A shout cannot provide that without breaking their own golden rule.

But it doesn’t stop there. I’m also taking into account the bread crumbs that arena net has provided us in the living world story. Digging a bit, Marjory has a lot in common with the Guild Wars 1 ritualist profession. And what was the defining feature of the GW1 ritualist? Spirits. I’m not saying its 100% going to be the ritualist, but given that arena net has come out and said that Marjory is working on becoming the new specialization along with the clues set in place this is essentially the best hypothesis we currently have for our profession.

What we want doesn’t factor into this at all. I want the necromancer to function more like the guild wars 1 necromancer(basically what the revenant was given). I want spammable minions to swarm my foe. I want confusion as one of our primary conditions. I want a really powerful life stealing build. What we want has nothing to do with it.

I actually think shouts on ele are quite likely.

Roe.3679:

It sounds like you’re trying to put gw1 into GW2. Spirits and minions in GW2 are pretty similar. Cast, then play, activating some active skill every now and then. That and every AI build has been nerfed, and it is very clear that further AI builds will not solve anything. Turrets and clone death builds are inckuded here. Plus, do you really believe that they will give us even more AI? Seems to me that Revenant would be more likely, thematically, to get spirits. They literally already channel spirits.

Consume conditions is weak because it has over a 1 second cast and is stupid easy to interrupt. Every class out of the PvP meta has long cast heals. Every class in the meta has uninterruptable (or close to it) heals. Since all of our uninterruptable heals are heals over time, they are useless because of death shroud. Therefore, an instant shout heal is really important.

I never mentioned wells being unique. You did, however, mention that spirits were unique.

As far as F skills, yes, guardians can give some support, but that’s only half of what virtues do. Tool belt skills being supportive is mostly limited to elixirs Only, so I don’t think k that this counts as many. Pets can give limited boons or debuffs, but that isn’t their main purpose as a mechanic. My point stands, F skills are mostly selfish, even in the profession that is focused the most around group support.

None of your points hold water. to further prove my point

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Binding_ritual

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Minion

Look through them and memorize what each of them do. Spirits are capable of far more then minions. For minions it doesn’t matter at all what they look like they all do the same thing. The only real difference was with flesh golem who could provide a corpse and jagged horror who could bleed foes. Beyond that they were a hyper aggressive zerg while Spirits provided more tactical support. Both had allot of value to each of their play styles but they were nothing alike.

And you are also making a claim, which I proved wrong, that f skills are inherently selfish. Which they are not but even assuming that they are why should that be a rule?

So basically Lily your argument is not about effectiveness, it’s about thematics.

Your criticism of shouts makes no sense btw, Warrior shouts can affect enemies, Guardian shouts are heavily defensive and Ranger shouts completely break the so-called “golden rules”

Lily.1935:

Roe.3679:

It sounds like you’re trying to put gw1 into GW2. Spirits and minions in GW2 are pretty similar. Cast, then play, activating some active skill every now and then. That and every AI build has been nerfed, and it is very clear that further AI builds will not solve anything. Turrets and clone death builds are inckuded here. Plus, do you really believe that they will give us even more AI? Seems to me that Revenant would be more likely, thematically, to get spirits. They literally already channel spirits.

Consume conditions is weak because it has over a 1 second cast and is stupid easy to interrupt. Every class out of the PvP meta has long cast heals. Every class in the meta has uninterruptable (or close to it) heals. Since all of our uninterruptable heals are heals over time, they are useless because of death shroud. Therefore, an instant shout heal is really important.

I never mentioned wells being unique. You did, however, mention that spirits were unique.

As far as F skills, yes, guardians can give some support, but that’s only half of what virtues do. Tool belt skills being supportive is mostly limited to elixirs Only, so I don’t think k that this counts as many. Pets can give limited boons or debuffs, but that isn’t their main purpose as a mechanic. My point stands, F skills are mostly selfish, even in the profession that is focused the most around group support.

None of your points hold water. to further prove my point

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Binding_ritual

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Minion

Look through them and memorize what each of them do. Spirits are capable of far more then minions. For minions it doesn’t matter at all what they look like they all do the same thing. The only real difference was with flesh golem who could provide a corpse and jagged horror who could bleed foes. Beyond that they were a hyper aggressive zerg while Spirits provided more tactical support. Both had allot of value to each of their play styles but they were nothing alike.

And you are also making a claim, which I proved wrong, that f skills are inherently selfish. Which they are not but even assuming that they are why should that be a rule?

Ok, I get it. You’re right, and so is everything you say.

Knox.8462:

So basically Lily your argument is not about effectiveness, it’s about thematics.

Your criticism of shouts makes no sense btw, Warrior shouts can affect enemies, Guardian shouts are heavily defensive and Ranger shouts completely break the so-called “golden rules”

They don’t break the rule. I said simple UI. Condition and boons are simple UI. And Pets moving to a location to do something doesn’t break this either as its easy for someone to see.

I’m fallowing the evidence. And the evidence suggest spirits. It gives no clues for shouts. This claim comes from a complaint from on older thread about arena net not caring about the necromancer at all that they’d be lazy enough to just slap on shouts for us. And people have been running with the idea for some strange reason I can’t fathom.

Lily.1935:

They don’t break the rule. I said simple UI. Condition and boons are simple UI. And Pets moving to a location to do something doesn’t break this either as its easy for someone to see.

I’m fallowing the evidence. And the evidence suggest spirits. It gives no clues for shouts. This claim comes from a complaint from on older thread about arena net not caring about the necromancer at all that they’d be lazy enough to just slap on shouts for us. And people have been running with the idea for some strange reason I can’t fathom.

I think you’re just coming up with non-existent technical limitations in order to justify your argument.

No shouts came from Necro players wanting more support options and Anet mentioning that they’d mix skill types between classes in order to make certain skill-type boosting runes more viable.

You just don’t want shouts because you don’t think they fit the Necromancer theme. Did traps fit the Guardian theme?

Knox.8462:

Lily.1935:

They don’t break the rule. I said simple UI. Condition and boons are simple UI. And Pets moving to a location to do something doesn’t break this either as its easy for someone to see.

I’m fallowing the evidence. And the evidence suggest spirits. It gives no clues for shouts. This claim comes from a complaint from on older thread about arena net not caring about the necromancer at all that they’d be lazy enough to just slap on shouts for us. And people have been running with the idea for some strange reason I can’t fathom.

I think you’re just coming up with non-existent technical limitations in order to justify your argument.

No shouts came from Necro players wanting more support options and Anet mentioning that they’d mix skill types between classes in order to make certain skill-type boosting runes more viable.

You just don’t want shouts because you don’t think they fit the Necromancer theme. Did traps fit the Guardian theme?

traps do fit the guardian theme. Considering a holy warrior like Van Helsing. He used holy traps in common pop culture. The only thing more fitting would be a crossbow which I’d be all for.

So how come shouts are on the table but spirits are suddenly off the table? Seems like an arbitrary distinction if you ask me. And I’m not making up technical limitations. They could technically make it so when a necro used a shout it made everyone have their own death shroud if they really wanted to. The Limitation is skill identity and Keeping UI to a minimum. Which minimum UI is in their philosophy, they said so in several interviews, its on record. Spirits have greater room for support then shouts. Shouts are limited by the nature of the skill type.

But we could all be wrong and we could be a Lich type specialization that uses glyphs or they could use elixirs. We can’t be sure. Glyphs and elixirs could be just as supportive as shouts could be. But none of those skills have any connection to what the clues point to. And the Marjory has been dropping some not so subtle hits as to what the specialization will be. And I’m like, 85% sure that its the ritualist. What skill types are most likely to be with a ritualist specialization? Spirits. Spirit weapons are also possible as well as bundles, but those last two are less likely. Shouts are not hinted at.

Necro Shout Ideas if we get this:

*ARISE DEATH-
Shout, causing undead to rise as minion.

*YOUR SOUL IS MINE-
Shout, draining health from nearby enemies and charging Life Force for each enemy hit. Allies nearby are healed 20% of the health drained.

*SCREAM OF PAIN-
Shout, causing enemy to be affected by Poison,Bleeding and chill. nearby Enemies see their HP Bar statues randomly increase and decrease, giving off false information for 7 seconds. Allies nearby gain Resistance for 3 seconds.

*HOWL OF DEATH-
Shout, Taunt nearby enemies then cause them to run in fear after 4 seconds.

*VOICE OF CORRUPTION-
Shout, causes a corruption effect on nearby enemies, that collects damage done to them over the next 5 seconds and deals that in a spike once the secondary skill is activated. Enemies affected lost 1 boon every second.

Lily.1935:

Shouts are not hinted at.

That’s not 100% true, shouts are the only two skill types (warrior or guardian I’m not sure which on) and ranger have in common refering to both Belinda and Rox. They (will) have both an big influence on her playstyle. Rox teached her to use her greatsword. So I see 2 possible scenario :
1. Marjory could try to “connect” to Belinda (which woul result in something like in the begin of the shaman king anime: improved weapon or fusing).
2. She’s trying to honor her memory by learning shouts from Rox , it could trying to bond with her dead spirit. Rox knowing no warrior skills, teaches Marjory the basic of the technique they have in common. With that basic she make her own shouts.

The 2 scenario could even be combined: scenario 1 explaing the specialisation mechanic and 2 explaining the utilities . Given the hint at shouts by the devs. I see that necromancer shouts have a solid chance.

Given that Spirits are being changed to be immobile, how exactly are they “AI?” They literally do nothing at all but sit there. They make no decisions, they are merely attackable (and crittable) objects that happen to give some benefit to allies of the summoner (or, possibly, detriment to enemies of said summoner).

They have active skills, yes, but those are just player skills triggered from a location that is not the player.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Given that Spirits are being changed to be immobile, how exactly are they “AI?” They literally do nothing at all but sit there. They make no decisions, they are merely attackable (and crittable) objects that happen to give some benefit to allies of the summoner (or, possibly, detriment to enemies of said summoner).

They have active skills, yes, but those are just player skills triggered from a location that is not the player.

The spirit “AI” stuff has never made sense. Even when they followed the ranger. They were attackable-killable Signets that required spawning… Literally I mean they were very little else… Just goes to show how ingrained the AI hate is in this game. If it has a tag, it’s the worst thing in the world. Imagine if they added a Fireball tag to staff 1’s fireball as it flew at them. The AI hate would be real.

Tim.6450:

Lily.1935:

Shouts are not hinted at.

That’s not 100% true, shouts are the only two skill types (warrior or guardian I’m not sure which on) and ranger have in common refering to both Belinda and Rox. They (will) have both an big influence on her playstyle. Rox teached her to use her greatsword. So I see 2 possible scenario :
1. Marjory could try to “connect” to Belinda (which woul result in something like in the begin of the shaman king anime: improved weapon or fusing).
2. She’s trying to honor her memory by learning shouts from Rox , it could trying to bond with her dead spirit. Rox knowing no warrior skills, teaches Marjory the basic of the technique they have in common. With that basic she make her own shouts.

The 2 scenario could even be combined: scenario 1 explaing the specialisation mechanic and 2 explaining the utilities . Given the hint at shouts by the devs. I see that necromancer shouts have a solid chance.

They do not have a solid chance. You’re really stretching it with their professions. And they didn’t really state. If you want to pull such loose strings I can too. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Seraph_Belinda_Delaqua

“The sisters exchanged words before Belinda performed a ritual that bound her soul with her sword, and Belinda’s soul was finally put to rest.” Ritual? Binding ritual? It was an ancient Canthan ability that ritualists preformed. But Rangers also preformed rituals. Nature rituals which summoned nature spirits. Bound spirits aren’t the same as nature spirits.

I’m afraid there really isn’t nearly enough evidence to convince me, and it shouldn’t convince anyone else for that matter, that necromancers will be getting shouts. As for spirits? There is a bit of information floating around that suggests the specialization will be ritualist. It might not be that simple though, I’ll admit. But just claiming that shouts make sense just cuz its what you think we need isn’t good enough. Did anyone think Mesmer needed Wells specifically? Or Guardian needed traps? Well, no. But they fit the theme of what they are going for.

And just because only “One” profession currently has access to spirits this doesn’t mean a second or even third profession can’t gain access to spirits. Wells were exclusive to necromancer. And currently there are no rune sets that care about wells.

The shouts thing honestly comes from someone making a bad joke. I’m not kidding. there is absolutely zero evidence to back it up other then the same people who have been saying “Necromancers being deleted from the game confirmed”. Its basically a way of mocking arena net by going “What would be the worst and most lack luster way to give necromancers a small portion of what we asked for that doesn’t address any of our real issues? I got it! Shouts!” This is how the whole thing started. The entire conversation about us getting shouts has no teeth.

Lily.1935:

Tim.6450:

Lily.1935:

Shouts are not hinted at.

That’s not 100% true, shouts are the only two skill types (warrior or guardian I’m not sure which on) and ranger have in common refering to both Belinda and Rox. They (will) have both an big influence on her playstyle. Rox teached her to use her greatsword. So I see 2 possible scenario :
1. Marjory could try to “connect” to Belinda (which woul result in something like in the begin of the shaman king anime: improved weapon or fusing).
2. She’s trying to honor her memory by learning shouts from Rox , it could trying to bond with her dead spirit. Rox knowing no warrior skills, teaches Marjory the basic of the technique they have in common. With that basic she make her own shouts.

The 2 scenario could even be combined: scenario 1 explaing the specialisation mechanic and 2 explaining the utilities . Given the hint at shouts by the devs. I see that necromancer shouts have a solid chance.

They do not have a solid chance. You’re really stretching it with their professions. And they didn’t really state. If you want to pull such loose strings I can too. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Seraph_Belinda_Delaqua

“The sisters exchanged words before Belinda performed a ritual that bound her soul with her sword, and Belinda’s soul was finally put to rest.” Ritual? Binding ritual? It was an ancient Canthan ability that ritualists preformed. But Rangers also preformed rituals. Nature rituals which summoned nature spirits. Bound spirits aren’t the same as nature spirits.

I’m afraid there really isn’t nearly enough evidence to convince me, and it shouldn’t convince anyone else for that matter, that necromancers will be getting shouts. As for spirits? There is a bit of information floating around that suggests the specialization will be ritualist. It might not be that simple though, I’ll admit. But just claiming that shouts make sense just cuz its what you think we need isn’t good enough. Did anyone think Mesmer needed Wells specifically? Or Guardian needed traps? Well, no. But they fit the theme of what they are going for.

And just because only “One” profession currently has access to spirits this doesn’t mean a second or even third profession can’t gain access to spirits. Wells were exclusive to necromancer. And currently there are no rune sets that care about wells.

The shouts thing honestly comes from someone making a bad joke. I’m not kidding. there is absolutely zero evidence to back it up other then the same people who have been saying “Necromancers being deleted from the game confirmed”. Its basically a way of mocking arena net by going “What would be the worst and most lack luster way to give necromancers a small portion of what we asked for that doesn’t address any of our real issues? I got it! Shouts!” This is how the whole thing started. The entire conversation about us getting shouts has no teeth.

there are two skill types that fit Spirits.

Ranger Spirits
and
Guardian Spirit Weapons…

which you like more for Necromancers?

Ranger Spirits are closer to Rits from GW1.

but Guardian Spirit Weapons are like temp Necromancer Minions.

Knighthonor.4061:

Lily.1935:

Tim.6450:

Lily.1935:

Shouts are not hinted at.

That’s not 100% true, shouts are the only two skill types (warrior or guardian I’m not sure which on) and ranger have in common refering to both Belinda and Rox. They (will) have both an big influence on her playstyle. Rox teached her to use her greatsword. So I see 2 possible scenario :
1. Marjory could try to “connect” to Belinda (which woul result in something like in the begin of the shaman king anime: improved weapon or fusing).
2. She’s trying to honor her memory by learning shouts from Rox , it could trying to bond with her dead spirit. Rox knowing no warrior skills, teaches Marjory the basic of the technique they have in common. With that basic she make her own shouts.

The 2 scenario could even be combined: scenario 1 explaing the specialisation mechanic and 2 explaining the utilities . Given the hint at shouts by the devs. I see that necromancer shouts have a solid chance.

They do not have a solid chance. You’re really stretching it with their professions. And they didn’t really state. If you want to pull such loose strings I can too. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Seraph_Belinda_Delaqua

“The sisters exchanged words before Belinda performed a ritual that bound her soul with her sword, and Belinda’s soul was finally put to rest.” Ritual? Binding ritual? It was an ancient Canthan ability that ritualists preformed. But Rangers also preformed rituals. Nature rituals which summoned nature spirits. Bound spirits aren’t the same as nature spirits.

I’m afraid there really isn’t nearly enough evidence to convince me, and it shouldn’t convince anyone else for that matter, that necromancers will be getting shouts. As for spirits? There is a bit of information floating around that suggests the specialization will be ritualist. It might not be that simple though, I’ll admit. But just claiming that shouts make sense just cuz its what you think we need isn’t good enough. Did anyone think Mesmer needed Wells specifically? Or Guardian needed traps? Well, no. But they fit the theme of what they are going for.

And just because only “One” profession currently has access to spirits this doesn’t mean a second or even third profession can’t gain access to spirits. Wells were exclusive to necromancer. And currently there are no rune sets that care about wells.

The shouts thing honestly comes from someone making a bad joke. I’m not kidding. there is absolutely zero evidence to back it up other then the same people who have been saying “Necromancers being deleted from the game confirmed”. Its basically a way of mocking arena net by going “What would be the worst and most lack luster way to give necromancers a small portion of what we asked for that doesn’t address any of our real issues? I got it! Shouts!” This is how the whole thing started. The entire conversation about us getting shouts has no teeth.

there are two skill types that fit Spirits.

Ranger Spirits
and
Guardian Spirit Weapons…

which you like more for Necromancers?

Ranger Spirits are closer to Rits from GW1.

but Guardian Spirit Weapons are like temp Necromancer Minions.

And both are BAD.

Order of Apostacy: shout. for 5s allies remove boons on hit (1s ICD)
Order of Vampire: shout. for 5s allies steal HP on hit (1s ICD)
Order of Pain: shout. for 5s allies deal 10% more damage
etc.

Really not hard to apply Orders to shouts. Spirits on the other hand would be the first profession we see with two sets of summons. We could totally get Spirits, I just hate the idea of having two summons on the same profession.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Given that Spirits are being changed to be immobile, how exactly are they “AI?” They literally do nothing at all but sit there. They make no decisions, they are merely attackable (and crittable) objects that happen to give some benefit to allies of the summoner (or, possibly, detriment to enemies of said summoner).

They have active skills, yes, but those are just player skills triggered from a location that is not the player.

This still sounds bad, I already hate that people can kill my stun break in flesh wurm, unless these spirits would have fast casts that are targetted so they don’t die to cleave and AOE in any group fight – which is the best time to use these because group buffs – along with powerful, fast actives, they would still be no good.

Plus immobile buffs are also very limiting. Again, no thanks to this. Even if it is strong it will end up nerfed to oblivion like turrets were, or toned down like minions, or spirit rangers, or clone death mesmers, or never useful at all like spirit weapon guards.

I don’t care how fun it was in GW1, in GW2 there is a long history of these things failing or getting beaten with the nerfbat.

Bhawb.7408:

Order of Apostacy: shout. for 5s allies remove boons on hit (1s ICD)
Order of Vampire: shout. for 5s allies steal HP on hit (1s ICD)
Order of Pain: shout. for 5s allies deal 10% more damage
etc.

Really not hard to apply Orders to shouts. Spirits on the other hand would be the first profession we see with two sets of summons. We could totally get Spirits, I just hate the idea of having two summons on the same profession.

I don’t think it’s bad. One sounds more supportive, and the other is more offensive. It sounds like a golden opportunity for synergy!

Roe.3679:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Given that Spirits are being changed to be immobile, how exactly are they “AI?” They literally do nothing at all but sit there. They make no decisions, they are merely attackable (and crittable) objects that happen to give some benefit to allies of the summoner (or, possibly, detriment to enemies of said summoner).

They have active skills, yes, but those are just player skills triggered from a location that is not the player.

This still sounds bad, I already hate that people can kill my stun break in flesh wurm, unless these spirits would have fast casts that are targetted so they don’t die to cleave and AOE in any group fight – which is the best time to use these because group buffs – along with powerful, fast actives, they would still be no good.

Plus immobile buffs are also very limiting. Again, no thanks to this. Even if it is strong it will end up nerfed to oblivion like turrets were, or toned down like minions, or spirit rangers, or clone death mesmers, or never useful at all like spirit weapon guards.

I don’t care how fun it was in GW1, in GW2 there is a long history of these things failing or getting beaten with the nerfbat.

I never said it was a “good idea”, I was just saying that these complaints about “more AI” when referring to Spirits are completely stupid. There is no AI on Spirits.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Roe.3679:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Given that Spirits are being changed to be immobile, how exactly are they “AI?” They literally do nothing at all but sit there. They make no decisions, they are merely attackable (and crittable) objects that happen to give some benefit to allies of the summoner (or, possibly, detriment to enemies of said summoner).

They have active skills, yes, but those are just player skills triggered from a location that is not the player.

This still sounds bad, I already hate that people can kill my stun break in flesh wurm, unless these spirits would have fast casts that are targetted so they don’t die to cleave and AOE in any group fight – which is the best time to use these because group buffs – along with powerful, fast actives, they would still be no good.

Plus immobile buffs are also very limiting. Again, no thanks to this. Even if it is strong it will end up nerfed to oblivion like turrets were, or toned down like minions, or spirit rangers, or clone death mesmers, or never useful at all like spirit weapon guards.

I don’t care how fun it was in GW1, in GW2 there is a long history of these things failing or getting beaten with the nerfbat.

I never said it was a “good idea”, I was just saying that these complaints about “more AI” when referring to Spirits are completely stupid. There is no AI on Spirits.

You mean there won’t be any AI on spirits. And we both know it will still be called AI even if you just spawn them and that’s it. Let’s not get nitpicky. Spawning any sort of NPC falls into the same category.

Roe.3679:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Roe.3679:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Given that Spirits are being changed to be immobile, how exactly are they “AI?” They literally do nothing at all but sit there. They make no decisions, they are merely attackable (and crittable) objects that happen to give some benefit to allies of the summoner (or, possibly, detriment to enemies of said summoner).

They have active skills, yes, but those are just player skills triggered from a location that is not the player.

This still sounds bad, I already hate that people can kill my stun break in flesh wurm, unless these spirits would have fast casts that are targetted so they don’t die to cleave and AOE in any group fight – which is the best time to use these because group buffs – along with powerful, fast actives, they would still be no good.

Plus immobile buffs are also very limiting. Again, no thanks to this. Even if it is strong it will end up nerfed to oblivion like turrets were, or toned down like minions, or spirit rangers, or clone death mesmers, or never useful at all like spirit weapon guards.

I don’t care how fun it was in GW1, in GW2 there is a long history of these things failing or getting beaten with the nerfbat.

I never said it was a “good idea”, I was just saying that these complaints about “more AI” when referring to Spirits are completely stupid. There is no AI on Spirits.

You mean there won’t be any AI on spirits. And we both know it will still be called AI even if you just spawn them and that’s it. Let’s not get nitpicky. Spawning any sort of NPC falls into the same category.

There really isn’t any on them now. And yes, we are getting “nitpicky.” People complain that they want to fight players, not the computer. Well, Spirits are exactly that: you aren’t fighting the computer.

Spirits are no more AI than Banners are. So why is one despised and ridiculed while the other is perfectly fine to use?

Bhawb.7408:

Order of Apostacy: shout. for 5s allies remove boons on hit (1s ICD)
Order of Vampire: shout. for 5s allies steal HP on hit (1s ICD)
Order of Pain: shout. for 5s allies deal 10% more damage
etc.

Really not hard to apply Orders to shouts. Spirits on the other hand would be the first profession we see with two sets of summons. We could totally get Spirits, I just hate the idea of having two summons on the same profession.

and what will the visual indicator be to show that these buffs are on allies? Oh, right. Shouts don’t get that, so we’d need a UI marker. Those actually function nothing like shouts do in GW2. The only similarity is a party buff, but if that’s the case then venoms should be shouts.

They’d function the same as all the buffs that give boons to allies. You press the shout, it has an affect in an area around you, that is all that shouts are in GW2.

People really don’t seem to remember just how good Ritualist spirits were. Even in GW1 most ranger spirits were garbage and Ritualist spirits were considered to be some of the most powerful party buffs you could get in the entire game. A good Spirit spammer in the first game could push out the requirement for 2 monks. The only reason I can see people not wanting them is they think they’d be identical to ranger spirits. Which they wouldn’t be.

Some examples could be:

Ritual of Life: Summon a spirit that heals allies Every 3 seconds for about 400, heals for about 4000 on activation. When it dies heal allies for about 2000. Trait synergy (Ritual of restoration: Ritual of life can now heal downed allies) Active: Sacrifice the spirit to heal for its remainder health.

Ritual of Wanderlust: Summon Spirit lobs projectiles at its target that causes torment to moving targets. Activation, wanderlust sends out a large aoe orb at target location that knocks down foes. Deals heavy damage.

Ritual of protection: Summon a heavy armored Spirit that absorbs a percent of allies damage. When this spirit dies it grants protection and to allies. Activation: Destroy this spirit and grant allies invulnerability for 2 seconds.

(Elite) Call to the Spirit Realm: Summon the spirits of Anger, Hate and suffering. These spirits attack your foes. Active: Summon all spirits to your current location.

Or something along those lines.

Bhawb.7408:

They’d function the same as all the buffs that give boons to allies. You press the shout, it has an affect in an area around you, that is all that shouts are in GW2.

so tell me why venoms can’t be shouts then.

Venoms aren’t applied in an AoE base, they are essentially offensive auras. And frankly I don’t care how strong spirits are, they could cause 10k damage on summon and give +100% damage in a 10k radius, putting multiple summon types on the same profession sucks.

Bhawb.7408:

Venoms aren’t applied in an AoE base, they are essentially offensive auras. And frankly I don’t care how strong spirits are, they could cause 10k damage on summon and give +100% damage in a 10k radius, putting multiple summon types on the same profession sucks.

I seriously disagree. And again, personal feelings don’t mean anything when we are talking about the evidence that is presented to us. They would provide a different play style. If orders became shouts they wouldn’t cause life stealing, they wouldn’t give non-boon buffs or cause anything besides conditions. They might cause something like daze, but it wouldn’t be nearly as complex as you think.

The Elementalist can do far more. When we talk about aura builds a shout could apply auras which elementalists specialize in. There is far more room for an elementalist to benifit from shouts then we can.

There is no reason our shouts couldn’t do those things, or something else unique. An Orders-style build (similar to shoutbow) is a new playstyle to Necromancer, as spirits could be (although your idea for a playstyle is literally just slightly more supporting minions). Both are based on pure speculation, both have equal amounts of non-existent evidence.

Bhawb.7408:

There is no reason our shouts couldn’t do those things, or something else unique. An Orders-style build (similar to shoutbow) is a new playstyle to Necromancer, as spirits could be (although your idea for a playstyle is literally just slightly more supporting minions). Both are based on pure speculation, both have equal amounts of non-existent evidence.

Actually, Arena net has gone on record saying that Marjory is working toward the necromancer specialization. Both of those links give evidence to Marjory’s strong connection with spirits. This is the best evidence we have to any sort of specialization. There is nothing for a banshee specialization. No suggestion at all that Marjoy will be a commanding force, nothing of that direction. There is subtle hits in favor of Ritualist.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory%27s_Story:_The_Last_Straw

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Seraph_Belinda_Delaqua

I don’t doubt that we might get orders. But Its more likely that they’ll be F2-5 skills and use up life force, not shouts.

Shiki.7148:

Knighthonor.4061:

Lily.1935:

Tim.6450:

Lily.1935:

Shouts are not hinted at.

That’s not 100% true, shouts are the only two skill types (warrior or guardian I’m not sure which on) and ranger have in common refering to both Belinda and Rox. They (will) have both an big influence on her playstyle. Rox teached her to use her greatsword. So I see 2 possible scenario :
1. Marjory could try to “connect” to Belinda (which woul result in something like in the begin of the shaman king anime: improved weapon or fusing).
2. She’s trying to honor her memory by learning shouts from Rox , it could trying to bond with her dead spirit. Rox knowing no warrior skills, teaches Marjory the basic of the technique they have in common. With that basic she make her own shouts.

The 2 scenario could even be combined: scenario 1 explaing the specialisation mechanic and 2 explaining the utilities . Given the hint at shouts by the devs. I see that necromancer shouts have a solid chance.

They do not have a solid chance. You’re really stretching it with their professions. And they didn’t really state. If you want to pull such loose strings I can too. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Seraph_Belinda_Delaqua

“The sisters exchanged words before Belinda performed a ritual that bound her soul with her sword, and Belinda’s soul was finally put to rest.” Ritual? Binding ritual? It was an ancient Canthan ability that ritualists preformed. But Rangers also preformed rituals. Nature rituals which summoned nature spirits. Bound spirits aren’t the same as nature spirits.

I’m afraid there really isn’t nearly enough evidence to convince me, and it shouldn’t convince anyone else for that matter, that necromancers will be getting shouts. As for spirits? There is a bit of information floating around that suggests the specialization will be ritualist. It might not be that simple though, I’ll admit. But just claiming that shouts make sense just cuz its what you think we need isn’t good enough. Did anyone think Mesmer needed Wells specifically? Or Guardian needed traps? Well, no. But they fit the theme of what they are going for.

And just because only “One” profession currently has access to spirits this doesn’t mean a second or even third profession can’t gain access to spirits. Wells were exclusive to necromancer. And currently there are no rune sets that care about wells.

The shouts thing honestly comes from someone making a bad joke. I’m not kidding. there is absolutely zero evidence to back it up other then the same people who have been saying “Necromancers being deleted from the game confirmed”. Its basically a way of mocking arena net by going “What would be the worst and most lack luster way to give necromancers a small portion of what we asked for that doesn’t address any of our real issues? I got it! Shouts!” This is how the whole thing started. The entire conversation about us getting shouts has no teeth.

there are two skill types that fit Spirits.

Ranger Spirits
and
Guardian Spirit Weapons…

which you like more for Necromancers?

Ranger Spirits are closer to Rits from GW1.

but Guardian Spirit Weapons are like temp Necromancer Minions.

And both are BAD.

Traps are bad. But Guardian’s traps are radically better than Thief/Ranger traps..

Lily.1935:

People really don’t seem to remember just how good Ritualist spirits were. Even in GW1 most ranger spirits were garbage and Ritualist spirits were considered to be some of the most powerful party buffs you could get in the entire game. A good Spirit spammer in the first game could push out the requirement for 2 monks. The only reason I can see people not wanting them is they think they’d be identical to ranger spirits. Which they wouldn’t be.

Some examples could be:

Ritual of Life: Summon a spirit that heals allies Every 3 seconds for about 400, heals for about 4000 on activation. When it dies heal allies for about 2000. Trait synergy (Ritual of restoration: Ritual of life can now heal downed allies) Active: Sacrifice the spirit to heal for its remainder health.

Ritual of Wanderlust: Summon Spirit lobs projectiles at its target that causes torment to moving targets. Activation, wanderlust sends out a large aoe orb at target location that knocks down foes. Deals heavy damage.

Ritual of protection: Summon a heavy armored Spirit that absorbs a percent of allies damage. When this spirit dies it grants protection and to allies. Activation: Destroy this spirit and grant allies invulnerability for 2 seconds.

(Elite) Call to the Spirit Realm: Summon the spirits of Anger, Hate and suffering. These spirits attack your foes. Active: Summon all spirits to your current location.

Or something along those lines.

that elite wont work, because it rely on other skills on the bar being spirits. so that elite would need to be different with your idea.

Knighthonor.4061:

Lily.1935:

People really don’t seem to remember just how good Ritualist spirits were. Even in GW1 most ranger spirits were garbage and Ritualist spirits were considered to be some of the most powerful party buffs you could get in the entire game. A good Spirit spammer in the first game could push out the requirement for 2 monks. The only reason I can see people not wanting them is they think they’d be identical to ranger spirits. Which they wouldn’t be.

Some examples could be:

Ritual of Life: Summon a spirit that heals allies Every 3 seconds for about 400, heals for about 4000 on activation. When it dies heal allies for about 2000. Trait synergy (Ritual of restoration: Ritual of life can now heal downed allies) Active: Sacrifice the spirit to heal for its remainder health.

Ritual of Wanderlust: Summon Spirit lobs projectiles at its target that causes torment to moving targets. Activation, wanderlust sends out a large aoe orb at target location that knocks down foes. Deals heavy damage.

Ritual of protection: Summon a heavy armored Spirit that absorbs a percent of allies damage. When this spirit dies it grants protection and to allies. Activation: Destroy this spirit and grant allies invulnerability for 2 seconds.

(Elite) Call to the Spirit Realm: Summon the spirits of Anger, Hate and suffering. These spirits attack your foes. Active: Summon all spirits to your current location.

Or something along those lines.

that elite wont work, because it rely on other skills on the bar being spirits. so that elite would need to be different with your idea.

its just a possibility. And I misworded it. Its supposed to be all spirits you control. Which it works with itself very well. So if its the only skill on your bar that has spirits it would only summon those three. Not an entirely unique idea as none of these ideas I put out as possibilities are unique they are all inspired by GW1 skills.

Call to the Spirit realm, that idea is basically just http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Call_to_the_Spirit_Realm or as people know the same effect from http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Signet_of_Spirits combine with the skill http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Summon_Spirits

My Spirit of life idea is a combination of a couple different spirits. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Life , http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Preservation , and http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Restoration

Wanderlust is just kinda a nerfed version of http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Wanderlust with torment added to keep to its flavor.

I would rather use banners than shouts or spirits, regardless of how tempting the banshee and rituatlist archetypes sound.

You still get the aoe buffs, except you can pick it up and move it, and get additional skills while you’re holding it. It’s easy enough to theme in – especially with greatsword – as a sort of Dread Lord spec.

anything but spirits pls……….ranger spirits other than frost stink….guard spirit weapons stink (with rare shield exception). so aside from being weak and inferior utilities, these passive utilities are simply not fun to use…whether they’re cool thematically or not.

i want something active………shouts, or “incantations” if you want to imagine thme as something more thematically appropriate, that have specific and instant AoE effects on allies, but also use lifeforce to imbue a specific buff/effect to your person or greatsword skills

I take

*Physicals
*Spirit Weapons
*Spirits
*Revenant
*Shouts if interestingly done…
*Kits
*Conjures

Relshdan.6854:

anything but spirits pls……….ranger spirits other than frost stink….guard spirit weapons stink (with rare shield exception). so aside from being weak and inferior utilities, these passive utilities are simply not fun to use…whether they’re cool thematically or not.

i want something active………shouts, or “incantations” if you want to imagine thme as something more thematically appropriate, that have specific and instant AoE effects on allies, but also use lifeforce to imbue a specific buff/effect to your person or greatsword skills

Here’s your guys’s problem. You’re comparing them to ranger spirits. Which they are most certainly not. Ritualist spirits were amazing in GW1 and if done right they can only be amazing in GW2. If not better.

Bhawb.7408:

Order of Apostacy: shout. for 5s allies remove boons on hit (1s ICD)
Order of Vampire: shout. for 5s allies steal HP on hit (1s ICD)
Order of Pain: shout. for 5s allies deal 10% more damage
etc.

Really not hard to apply Orders to shouts. Spirits on the other hand would be the first profession we see with two sets of summons. We could totally get Spirits, I just hate the idea of having two summons on the same profession.

These sound so lame compared to what Chrono and DH have , if we get that I will propably not play the Elite Spec EVER. Except if the GS is the bomb and i can forgo any any and every shout trait like the Dragonhunter can forgo trap-traits.

Lily.1935:

Relshdan.6854:

anything but spirits pls……….ranger spirits other than frost stink….guard spirit weapons stink (with rare shield exception). so aside from being weak and inferior utilities, these passive utilities are simply not fun to use…whether they’re cool thematically or not.

i want something active………shouts, or “incantations” if you want to imagine thme as something more thematically appropriate, that have specific and instant AoE effects on allies, but also use lifeforce to imbue a specific buff/effect to your person or greatsword skills

Here’s your guys’s problem. You’re comparing them to ranger spirits. Which they are most certainly not. Ritualist spirits were amazing in GW1 and if done right they can only be amazing in GW2. If not better.

Well, minions and Necros were great in GW1 too. And now look where we stand since release.

Shiki.7148:

Well, minions and Necros were great in GW1 too. And now look where we stand since release.

I’ll concede to that point….

when i think shout necromancer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONkbc5Narlg

As long as they don’t use “Banshee” name, I’m okay with anything they show us.
Although I’d prefer ritualist-type spec.

The ranger spirit points are irrelevant. They specifically said already they are reworking ranger spirits to be immobile but much more potent. It’s this specific change that made me wonder about another class getting spirits because it seemed like a random overhaul that wouldn’t seem real likely if it didn’t affect any HOT specializations.

Ironicay they’re reworking spirits in Rangers to be more like Ritual ones at a rather “convenient” time.

ronpierce.2760:

The ranger spirit points are irrelevant. They specifically said already they are reworking ranger spirits to be immobile but much more potent. It’s this specific change that made me wonder about another class getting spirits because it seemed like a random overhaul that wouldn’t seem real likely if it didn’t affect any HOT specializations.

Ironicay they’re reworking spirits in Rangers to be more like Ritual ones at a rather “convenient” time.

i’d be fine with spirits on necro as long as they were not “passive area denial” but instead an active “sacrifice”. they intend to do the passive thing to ranger spirits….

gain a weaker self buff on summon, then gain lifeforce and a very strong AoE ally buff/effect on sacrificing/banishing the spirit.

Relshdan.6854:

ronpierce.2760:

The ranger spirit points are irrelevant. They specifically said already they are reworking ranger spirits to be immobile but much more potent. It’s this specific change that made me wonder about another class getting spirits because it seemed like a random overhaul that wouldn’t seem real likely if it didn’t affect any HOT specializations.

Ironicay they’re reworking spirits in Rangers to be more like Ritual ones at a rather “convenient” time.

i’d be fine with spirits on necro as long as they were not “passive area denial” but instead an active “sacrifice”. they intend to do that to ranger spirits.

gain a weaker self buff on summon, then gain lifeforce and a very strong AoE ally buff/effect on sacrificing/banishing the spirit.

I hope they’re A.) Good and B.) Supportive in nature so I can make a hybrid Minion/Spirit build with OP synergy and a higher skillcap.

We already have shouts,,, its our Underwater Trident #2 skill
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feast

guess people forgot about this. I call it a scream like the Everquest Shadow Knight… lol