Guild Wars 2

The articles discussing the merits of the Fury Longbow Ranger versus Mesmer/Thief and how there’s room for it. Thought you guys might like a read:

http://www.tentonhammer.com/editorial/guild-wars-2-will-rangers-ever-be-meta

The reason rangers fall short of mesmers and thieves in spvp is because of their superior mobility and boon stripping. No one is arguing that SotF isn’t a strong fighting build, but what you are calling utility in that build mainly applies to you and not your team. SotF’s fury and condi cleanse don’t help your teammates, things like spotter, SoR, healing spring, even traited shouts do.

When trait: Rapid Fire is 8 second: huge difference of “Enormous Spike Damage” than 10 seconds. Example: if it take 10 seconds to kill a thief, ranger can easily kill thief under 8 seconds with trait adjustment.

I do not know why did not include that in his articlet: it make me feel he is not honest.

It is the same person who wrote this article:

http://www.tentonhammer.com/editorial/guild-wars-2-are-thieves-and-mesmers-cause-meta

DarkSyze.8627:

When trait: Rapid Fire is 8 second: huge difference of “Enormous Spike Damage” than 10 seconds. Example: if it take 10 seconds to kill a thief, ranger can easily kill thief under 8 seconds with trait adjustment.

I do not know why did not include that in his articlet: it make me feel he is not honest.

It is the same person who wrote this article:

http://www.tentonhammer.com/editorial/guild-wars-2-are-thieves-and-mesmers-cause-meta

Because he isn’t talking about the terrible players you find in hot join?

Good players know how to counter the rapid fire and close the gap on the ranger. If they are running a condi build they can wreck the ranger if he is running the 6,6,0,2 build. It’s better to run something like the SotF build that gives you the tools you need to fight back.

Puck.9612:

The reason rangers fall short of mesmers and thieves in spvp is because of their superior mobility and boon stripping. No one is arguing that SotF isn’t a strong fighting build, but what you are calling utility in that build mainly applies to you and not your team. SotF’s fury and condi cleanse don’t help your teammates, things like spotter, SoR, healing spring, even traited shouts do.

I really disagree. Mesmer’s have blink, but no good Mesmer uses that for traveling around the map – especially if there’s an opposing Thief. That leaves traveller runes, and portal (on long cooldown). A ranger has Swiftness and Swoop. Not a huge difference, really. As for Boon Stripping, I think it’s much less important now after the Stability change.

DarkSyze.8627:

When trait: Rapid Fire is 8 second: huge difference of “Enormous Spike Damage” than 10 seconds. Example: if it take 10 seconds to kill a thief, ranger can easily kill thief under 8 seconds with trait adjustment.

I do not know why did not include that in his articlet: it make me feel he is not honest.

It is the same person who wrote this article:

http://www.tentonhammer.com/editorial/guild-wars-2-are-thieves-and-mesmers-cause-meta

For the small amount of damage you sacrifice by having Rapid Fire on 10 seconds, as opposed to 8, you gain a lot of survivability. That said, Rapid Fire deals enormous damage if the opposition has no dodges remaining.

Puck.9612:

DarkSyze.8627:

When trait: Rapid Fire is 8 second: huge difference of “Enormous Spike Damage” than 10 seconds. Example: if it take 10 seconds to kill a thief, ranger can easily kill thief under 8 seconds with trait adjustment.

I do not know why did not include that in his articlet: it make me feel he is not honest.

It is the same person who wrote this article:

http://www.tentonhammer.com/editorial/guild-wars-2-are-thieves-and-mesmers-cause-meta

Because he isn’t talking about the terrible players you find in hot join?

Good players know how to counter the rapid fire and close the gap on the ranger. If they are running a condi build they can wreck the ranger if he is running the 6,6,0,2 build. It’s better to run something like the SotF build that gives you the tools you need to fight back.

You could argue “good players” for anything. It’s a merry-go round. Even the best players can be easily caught in a Rapid Fire when they run out of skills or dodges. Just like any good player can be caught by a Thief or a Mesmer shatter. It’s about finding the opportunity and using it to your advantage.

Lewis Burnell.2493:

You could argue “good players” for anything. It’s a merry-go round. Even the best players can be easily caught in a Rapid Fire when they run out of skills or dodges. Just like any good player can be caught by a Thief or a Mesmer shatter. It’s about finding the opportunity and using it to your advantage.

Being caught by a thief will result in being stunned > dazed > blinded and waking up at 50% HP… With a possibility to repeat all over whenever a stealth button is hit.

If a Ranger catches you off-guard, that means that someone else must have set the CC for you – which means you are already in a 2v1 situation and there’s no way you are going to loose anyway.
If you think that a Ranger can just blow 2-3 target’s dodge rolls and reflects or defensive cooldowns just by AFKing with Auto-Shot than you are quite wrong. It’s actually the other way round. By using Rapid fire – your enemy uses most of their Dodges and Def cooldowns.

Tragic Positive.9356:

Lewis Burnell.2493:

You could argue “good players” for anything. It’s a merry-go round. Even the best players can be easily caught in a Rapid Fire when they run out of skills or dodges. Just like any good player can be caught by a Thief or a Mesmer shatter. It’s about finding the opportunity and using it to your advantage.

Being caught by a thief will result in being stunned > dazed > blinded and waking up at 50% HP… With a possibility to repeat all over whenever a stealth button is hit.

If a Ranger catches you off-guard, that means that someone else must have set the CC for you – which means you are already in a 2v1 situation and there’s no way you are going to loose anyway.
If you think that a Ranger can just blow 2-3 target’s dodge rolls and reflects or defensive cooldowns just by AFKing with Auto-Shot than you are quite wrong. It’s actually the other way round. By using Rapid fire – your enemy uses most of their Dodges and Def cooldowns.

I’d really disaagree. Spider F2 + Knockback + Rapid Fire catches many, many players. You have to look at the role of a Fury/Longbow Ranger as a ranged Thief. You approach fights on the edges, chooses the most vulnerable target and save your Rapid Fire for the optimal spike.

I still primarily play Ranger and Mesmer .

Thieves beat out both Ranger and Mesmer largely for this one reason … when a 1v1 becomes a 1v2 to the Thieves disadvantage, the Thief can more easily disengage from the fight than a Ranger/Mesmer.

Thieves are more mobile and not dependent on long cooldowns (e.g. Portal) for their mobility.

Additionally, you bring one of these classes to +1 a fight. With superior mobility, a Thief can more quickly +1. It is common knowledge that Thieves dominate the Berserker meta. Check the “pro” Mesmer guides and you’ll see their advice vs Thieves is to avoid them … which is a liability for your team; particularly with the abundance of good Thieves at high levels of play.

I find Ranger can give Thief a run for their money, but if the Thief is losing, he can often disengage while the Ranger can’t (back to mobility).

The primary thing I think the Ranger brings that the Thief can’t is the long range. A Ranger exerts a much larger threat range than a Thief and doesn’t have to commit in order to put pressure on a target. Unfortunately, it is a double-edged sword. A Ranger using their Range is often not [de-]capping a point as that compromises the advantage they gain from their bow.

Mesmer is a little worse as they have to mobility, stealth, etc. that make it harder to contest a point.

Puck.9612:

DarkSyze.8627:

When trait: Rapid Fire is 8 second: huge difference of “Enormous Spike Damage” than 10 seconds. Example: if it take 10 seconds to kill a thief, ranger can easily kill thief under 8 seconds with trait adjustment.

I do not know why did not include that in his articlet: it make me feel he is not honest.

It is the same person who wrote this article:

http://www.tentonhammer.com/editorial/guild-wars-2-are-thieves-and-mesmers-cause-meta

Because he isn’t talking about the terrible players you find in hot join?

Good players know how to counter the rapid fire and close the gap on the ranger. If they are running a condi build they can wreck the ranger if he is running the 6,6,0,2 build. It’s better to run something like the SotF build that gives you the tools you need to fight back.

Maybe you should go tell that to DarkSyze.8627. If you haven’t go read:

Ranger range 1500 need risk, Sugg: 1300 range

;) He will disagree with you /boggle

Sebrent.3625:

I still primarily play Ranger and Mesmer .

Thieves beat out both Ranger and Mesmer largely for this one reason … when a 1v1 becomes a 1v2 to the Thieves disadvantage, the Thief can more easily disengage from the fight than a Ranger/Mesmer.

Thieves are more mobile and not dependent on long cooldowns (e.g. Portal) for their mobility.

Additionally, you bring one of these classes to +1 a fight. With superior mobility, a Thief can more quickly +1. It is common knowledge that Thieves dominate the Berserker meta. Check the “pro” Mesmer guides and you’ll see their advice vs Thieves is to avoid them … which is a liability for your team; particularly with the abundance of good Thieves at high levels of play.

I find Ranger can give Thief a run for their money, but if the Thief is losing, he can often disengage while the Ranger can’t (back to mobility).

The primary thing I think the Ranger brings that the Thief can’t is the long range. A Ranger exerts a much larger threat range than a Thief and doesn’t have to commit in order to put pressure on a target. Unfortunately, it is a double-edged sword. A Ranger using their Range is often not [de-]capping a point as that compromises the advantage they gain from their bow.

Mesmer is a little worse as they have to mobility, stealth, etc. that make it harder to contest a point.

This has pretty much been the main complaint regarding stealth in this game. The thief can reset fights at well.

Crapgame.6519:

Puck.9612:

DarkSyze.8627:

When trait: Rapid Fire is 8 second: huge difference of “Enormous Spike Damage” than 10 seconds. Example: if it take 10 seconds to kill a thief, ranger can easily kill thief under 8 seconds with trait adjustment.

I do not know why did not include that in his articlet: it make me feel he is not honest.

It is the same person who wrote this article:

http://www.tentonhammer.com/editorial/guild-wars-2-are-thieves-and-mesmers-cause-meta

Because he isn’t talking about the terrible players you find in hot join?

Good players know how to counter the rapid fire and close the gap on the ranger. If they are running a condi build they can wreck the ranger if he is running the 6,6,0,2 build. It’s better to run something like the SotF build that gives you the tools you need to fight back.

Maybe you should go tell that to DarkSyze.8627. If you haven’t go read:

Ranger range 1500 need risk, Sugg: 1300 range

;) He will disagree with you /boggle

:)

They have both stealth and awesome maneuverability … that’s what separates them from Mesmers (though most Thief builds have more access to stealth than Mesmers can have).

My primary beef isn’t with stealth or even Thieves, but with what prevents there being as much counterplay.

Fighting a Warrior is a good example of the use of telegraphs that enable counterplay. You see them throw that Bola. You see them coming at you with an Eviscerate. You see that Earthshaker coming at your face. Since you can see it, you can try to react to you. Despite the fact that we can see and react to these things, good Warriors still win fights and it doesn’t feel too horribly bad losing to one.

On the other hand, there are tons of high-impact skills in the game that have no telegraph whatsoever. You simply get hit by them. Attacks from stealth are what first come to people’s minds, but it doesn’t end there. Steal is the same way. Mesmer offensive Mantras are the same way as well. You don’t see any animation when I pop Mantra of Distraction on you; in fact I can hit you with it while I’m casting something else.

Thief and Mesmer aren’t the only ones, but we’ll stop there for brevity.

The issue with when you can’t see a skill is that the counterplay breaks down to “guess when it will be used”. This can be fine except that when a class combines multiple skills together where the answer to it is to “guess”, the counterplay can break down.

In a 1v1, it isn’t as bad given that with enough experience you learn to anticipate those abilities and it becomes a bit of a game of chicken with your dodges/cooldowns and their uses of those abilities. However, as fights scale up, you now have to keep track of multiple opponents and still somehow guess when these zero-telegraph abilities will be used. I’m sure everyone can remember a time when they were fighting someone and then suddenly were downed by a backstab or steal or constantly locked out of their abilities by Mantra of Distraction from a Mesmer that joined the fight.

It isn’t like when you’re fighting and an opposing Warrior joins the fight. You see that Warrior and you see the ability. You have a chance to react to it … not guess when it will happen.

Some will say “you just have to anticipate”. First, this is just a nicer way of saying “you have to guess”. Second, a Thief can stealth for long periods of time. I don’t have enough dodge rolls and cooldowns for that; especially when I also don’t want to get hit by their Steal or the next time they Stealth and try to backstab me. Additionally, good luck guessing when I will use Mantra of Distraction on you with my Mesmer. If I get you low enough to force you to heal, you are in trouble if you can’t LOS me because you’re either going to (1) Get dazed/interrupted (2) Dodge it thereby interrupting your heal … for (2) you might just dodge nothing and I laugh to myself.

tl;dr Enabling true counterplay is a good thing for PvP. Most, if not all, things that detract from counterplay are bad for PvP.

Give a cue that Mantra of Distraction is going to be cast or between cast and when it would hit. Give a cue that a backstab is about to rip your backside. Give players something to see and/or hear so they can react. The pros will react quickly and do very well. The rest will react slightly slower and get outcomes that reflect that.

Sebrent.3625:

They have both stealth and awesome maneuverability … that’s what separates them from Mesmers (though most Thief builds have more access to stealth than Mesmers can have).

My primary beef isn’t with stealth or even Thieves, but with what prevents there being as much counterplay.

Fighting a Warrior is a good example of the use of telegraphs that enable counterplay. You see them throw that Bola. You see them coming at you with an Eviscerate. You see that Earthshaker coming at your face. Since you can see it, you can try to react to you. Despite the fact that we can see and react to these things, good Warriors still win fights and it doesn’t feel too horribly bad losing to one.

On the other hand, there are tons of high-impact skills in the game that have no telegraph whatsoever. You simply get hit by them. Attacks from stealth are what first come to people’s minds, but it doesn’t end there. Steal is the same way. Mesmer offensive Mantras are the same way as well. You don’t see any animation when I pop Mantra of Distraction on you; in fact I can hit you with it while I’m casting something else.

Thief and Mesmer aren’t the only ones, but we’ll stop there for brevity.

The issue with when you can’t see a skill is that the counterplay breaks down to “guess when it will be used”. This can be fine except that when a class combines multiple skills together where the answer to it is to “guess”, the counterplay can break down.

In a 1v1, it isn’t as bad given that with enough experience you learn to anticipate those abilities and it becomes a bit of a game of chicken with your dodges/cooldowns and their uses of those abilities. However, as fights scale up, you now have to keep track of multiple opponents and still somehow guess when these zero-telegraph abilities will be used. I’m sure everyone can remember a time when they were fighting someone and then suddenly were downed by a backstab or steal or constantly locked out of their abilities by Mantra of Distraction from a Mesmer that joined the fight.

It isn’t like when you’re fighting and an opposing Warrior joins the fight. You see that Warrior and you see the ability. You have a chance to react to it … not guess when it will happen.

Some will say “you just have to anticipate”. First, this is just a nicer way of saying “you have to guess”. Second, a Thief can stealth for long periods of time. I don’t have enough dodge rolls and cooldowns for that; especially when I also don’t want to get hit by their Steal or the next time they Stealth and try to backstab me. Additionally, good luck guessing when I will use Mantra of Distraction on you with my Mesmer. If I get you low enough to force you to heal, you are in trouble if you can’t LOS me because you’re either going to (1) Get dazed/interrupted (2) Dodge it thereby interrupting your heal … for (2) you might just dodge nothing and I laugh to myself.

tl;dr Enabling true counterplay is a good thing for PvP. Most, if not all, things that detract from counterplay are bad for PvP.

Give a cue that Mantra of Distraction is going to be cast or between cast and when it would hit. Give a cue that a backstab is about to rip your backside. Give players something to see and/or hear so they can react. The pros will react quickly and do very well. The rest will react slightly slower and get outcomes that reflect that.

All good points but not sure what can be done about it with the current state of the game. It is, to some degree, class separation. Without it we might as well all be stick figures with the same attacks

In all seriousness though, it is why dodge is a key mechanic of the game and with some tough decisions you can extend the endurance bar a wee bit.

Survival of the Fittest really truly isn’t the best way to spec at all if you are looking to get the most efficient utility tree you can pick up if you aren’t going full damage. You basically get stuck into using utilities, and unless you stick with the Lightning Reflexes, Signet of Renewal, Signet of Stone, Entangle combo that works on every build (in which case Survival of the Fittest isn’t worth the opportunity cost), you are giving up one of your utilities AND for those that run Keen Edge even a trait slot for a less efficient build.

That would be my opinion on it anyhow.

6 into Wilderness Survival with the above mentioned utility combo (or Rampage as One over Entangle) gives you more dodging, a passive stun break (3 total stun breaks on the bar, and can turn the tables instantly if a thief jumps you with a steal rotation while it’s active), protection on dodge (PvP players HATE our trait for this), more damage above 10% (if you are pew pewing, you can almost always have this active), and 3+1 SoR condition removal for 4 removals a second. Oh, AND I missed the Master Trait selection, which can be catered to either GS for more maul/swoop/block/hilt bash or to even a S/D set (arguably better in duels against classes that can constantly reset) for more evade utility.

BUT, even then, the article is just flat wrong about the ranger “filling” a niche between mesmer and thief on every count, other than for a single idea; survivability. The only reason to take a ranger over a mesmer right now is because ranger is more forgiving in the survival department, where as if anything even decides to look at a mesmer, they have to kite like crazy or back off and reset.

Still, that is not a very long list of things that a ranger brings over mesmer, and as mentioned, all that ranger brings over thief is range. Now, the game is still bugged to hell from the patch so it’s hard to tell if the teleport changes are working as intended yet or not (they don’t seem to be), but if they aren’t, then Ranger creates even more room for itself as a niche position because thiefs lose a ton of their ability to engage from a safe position using teleports and will require LoS, making thief less of a threat to perch positions to rangers on maps, and then ranger beats out over mesmer because Ranger can pressure a mesmer away (similar reason to how DPS guard is now meta, it has a good matchup against the dominant zerker builds and can +1 effectively) easily.

BUT, the lack of boon removal is still a killer thing to be lacking. Mainly, the inability to remove protection to guarantee damage and remove a lot of what these tank builds rely on to survive (Warrior converts condis to boons, ele has LOTS of protection).

Anyhow, the article kind of has the right idea, but it’s very general, and argues for the more inefficient power build you can run imo. The “better” way to run SotF is 0/6/2/6/0, playing more as a melee build than ranged, and swapping to longbow to “poke” and reset.

@Crapgame:
I have to disagree that the lack of telegraphs is required for class separation.

First, look at the differences in gameplay between Warriors with different weaponsets. There are some quite big differences and that’s with the same class just using different weapons.

Then look at differences between an Elementalist and a Warrior. Most of an Elementalist’s abilities have a telegraph and I don’t think anyone is arguing that an Elementalist and Warrior play the same. Ranger is great about having telegraphs for their abilities (and their pets’ abilities!) and it doesn’t play like either of those classes. And so on…

@jcbroe:
Aye, a lack of boon removal is a glaring difference; especially in a boon-stacking, Celestial meta.

As the article states, there is also the lack of cleave in comparison … though pets can be a nice alternative.

Guyz, but you are missing the most important point in this…
…
The reason why Rangers are not going to become a PvP meta is simple.
They need to be light years away from point (the goal objective) to be effective.
Which means the following: Not only they bring nothing but damage (neither entangle nor Muddy Terrain are used for point objectives – but solely for selfish survival purposes) – but even the damage is lower in comparison to Other Zerk classes such as Mesmers or Thieves.

Which means the following:
The only contribution the Ranger will bring is damage and a cripple (barrage).
No health pool to distribute the damage, no utility to help secure the point. A mere single target knockback that is super weak at long range and gets blocked by unimportant targets most of the time anyways.

tl;dr
A ranger will not become the meta, because he is only effective at range where his objective contribution is Zero.
There are less targets to be downed or pushed out of point, less targets to help you revive or rally (Thieves excel at saving), and even the damage Ranger brings is not even comparable to either a Mesmer or a Thief.
Ranger is just more comfortable sniping from “safe” distance.

Tragic Positive.9356:

Guyz, but you are missing the most important point in this…
…
The reason why Rangers are not going to become a PvP meta is simple.
They need to be light years away from point (the goal objective) to be effective.
Which means the following: Not only they bring nothing but damage (neither entangle nor Muddy Terrain are used for point objectives – but solely for selfish survival purposes) – but even the damage is lower in comparison to Other Zerk classes such as Mesmers or Thieves.

I also main a Guardian – well, actually parked a bit because I’m enjoying the Ranger, but my point is that I also hear this in those forums (Guardians). And how they are not part of the PvP meta.

Maybe the issue is in the format of play….

That may become the answer, Crapgame, but my intuition tells me that that would simply break down into …

Classes A,B,C excel in format #1
Classes D,E,F excel in format #2
Classes G,H excel in both.

I imagine that this would still lead to some valid griping.

Well, if we should break down the game objectives – you can win by 3 most common ways.

Bunkering 2 points. – Which means solely staying alive at 2 points. Guardians and Warriors excel at this.
*If they can’t kill the player who holds the point captured at all times, it doesn’t matter that everyone else died. You are holding the objective.

Decapping enemy points with powerful dueling builds – which require more than 1 enemy to take you down.
Engineers and Eles excel at this.
*If you neutralized their point and made them come at you in number advantage – it means 2 other points are pushed into your advantage and you bought precious time that wins games.

Braking enemy formation and tearing them apart through sheer firepower (dmg and CC) – winning by contesting. Thieves and Mesmers excel at this.
*Similar to PvE meta. If your target is dead, it cannot deal damage or take objectives. Also known as “a retreating enemy does not fight back”

Sadly, rangers do support these objectives up to a certain amount, but do not excel at any. Not with the proposed build.
Rangers excel at team-fight scenario with the spirit build. The bonus revive, AoE defense, AoE condition damage, AoE cleanse.
That’s really powerful stuff.
But definitely not the Zerk Power GlassBow.

Sadly Tragic, I’m still new to the whole ranger class that I have no idea what a spirit build is let alone how one plays it… Then again I really only stay in the WvW meta and don’t venture out.

Sebrent, I do agree. I’m just starting to wonder at the direction of the game is all but if I’m being honestly I’ve only tried the two classes. Guardian for the longest and the Ranger recently. I do have a 80 necro that I used tombs from sPvP but that is just for fun and I’m really clueless playing on that

Crapgame.6519:

Sadly Tragic, I’m still new to the whole ranger class that I have no idea what a spirit build is let alone how one plays it… Then again I really only stay in the WvW meta and don’t venture out.

Sebrent, I do agree. I’m just starting to wonder at the direction of the game is all but if I’m being honestly I’ve only tried the two classes. Guardian for the longest and the Ranger recently. I do have a 80 necro that I used tombs from sPvP but that is just for fun and I’m really clueless playing on that

Spirit builds have mostly stopped being run due to poor spirit survival against the output of the meta builds, and in general other classes being able to provide what the spirit build provides and more, the most common class cited to by the spirit ranger replacement being D/D celestial ele.

The build itself is honestly extremely passive and most people are happy with where it is currently at (I am very happy myself that it is no longer the go to meta build, even though I would prefer that we did have a meta staple build of some sort), aka effective but not prevalent and the range of it’s capabilities aren’t enough to push it into a dominant place in the meta, but for reference, the link does have all of the different variants and ideas behind the build: http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Ranger_-_Spirit_Ranger

jcbroe.4329:

Crapgame.6519:

Sadly Tragic, I’m still new to the whole ranger class that I have no idea what a spirit build is let alone how one plays it… Then again I really only stay in the WvW meta and don’t venture out.

Sebrent, I do agree. I’m just starting to wonder at the direction of the game is all but if I’m being honestly I’ve only tried the two classes. Guardian for the longest and the Ranger recently. I do have a 80 necro that I used tombs from sPvP but that is just for fun and I’m really clueless playing on that

Spirit builds have mostly stopped being run due to poor spirit survival against the output of the meta builds, and in general other classes being able to provide what the spirit build provides and more, the most common class cited to by the spirit ranger replacement being D/D celestial ele.

The build itself is honestly extremely passive and most people are happy with where it is currently at (I am very happy myself that it is no longer the go to meta build, even though I would prefer that we did have a meta staple build of some sort), aka effective but not prevalent and the range of it’s capabilities aren’t enough to push it into a dominant place in the meta, but for reference, the link does have all of the different variants and ideas behind the build: http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Ranger_-_Spirit_Ranger

Thanks for the info. I’ll check it out.

So on the ele side, seems like they are the replacement for everyone Maybe we all should take a break or boycott and see how well they do

Tragic Positive.9356:

Guyz, but you are missing the most important point in this…
…
The reason why Rangers are not going to become a PvP meta is simple.
They need to be light years away from point (the goal objective) to be effective.
Which means the following: Not only they bring nothing but damage (neither entangle nor Muddy Terrain are used for point objectives – but solely for selfish survival purposes) – but even the damage is lower in comparison to Other Zerk classes such as Mesmers or Thieves.

Which means the following:
The only contribution the Ranger will bring is damage and a cripple (barrage).
No health pool to distribute the damage, no utility to help secure the point. A mere single target knockback that is super weak at long range and gets blocked by unimportant targets most of the time anyways.

tl;dr
A ranger will not become the meta, because he is only effective at range where his objective contribution is Zero.
There are less targets to be downed or pushed out of point, less targets to help you revive or rally (Thieves excel at saving), and even the damage Ranger brings is not even comparable to either a Mesmer or a Thief.
Ranger is just more comfortable sniping from “safe” distance.

How is being at range, dealing huge damage, ever a problem for a team game? That’s like saying a Mesmer won’t ever be Meta because they have to fight off point with Greatsword. It’s simply not a disadvantage, in any way. When you’ve four other players on your team capable of staying on point, the Ranger is in an excellent position to pin point targets, remain unharmed and use their utility from a long way away. Perhaps I’m a half-full sort of guy, but the Ranger being ranged is a huge advantage if your team actually use that range to their advantage. I know in the many tournament games I’ve played, targeting players who are downed, preventing stomps or pressuring a bunker is incredibly easy – all the while I’m out of the way.

Lewis Burnell.2493:

Tragic Positive.9356:

Guyz, but you are missing the most important point in this…
…
The reason why Rangers are not going to become a PvP meta is simple.
They need to be light years away from point (the goal objective) to be effective.
Which means the following: Not only they bring nothing but damage (neither entangle nor Muddy Terrain are used for point objectives – but solely for selfish survival purposes) – but even the damage is lower in comparison to Other Zerk classes such as Mesmers or Thieves.

Which means the following:
The only contribution the Ranger will bring is damage and a cripple (barrage).
No health pool to distribute the damage, no utility to help secure the point. A mere single target knockback that is super weak at long range and gets blocked by unimportant targets most of the time anyways.

tl;dr
A ranger will not become the meta, because he is only effective at range where his objective contribution is Zero.
There are less targets to be downed or pushed out of point, less targets to help you revive or rally (Thieves excel at saving), and even the damage Ranger brings is not even comparable to either a Mesmer or a Thief.
Ranger is just more comfortable sniping from “safe” distance.

How is being at range, dealing huge damage, ever a problem for a team game? That’s like saying a Mesmer won’t ever be Meta because they have to fight off point with Greatsword. It’s simply not a disadvantage, in any way. When you’ve four other players on your team capable of staying on point, the Ranger is in an excellent position to pin point targets, remain unharmed and use their utility from a long way away. Perhaps I’m a half-full sort of guy, but the Ranger being ranged is a huge advantage if your team actually use that range to their advantage. I know in the many tournament games I’ve played, targeting players who are downed, preventing stomps or pressuring a bunker is incredibly easy – all the while I’m out of the way.

Problem is many of them, especially the newer players, are either incapable of staying on point, or “refuse” to stay on point. It is really hard for ranger to succeed when you have celestial bunkers who love to roam. It is easier to just roll a class that’re good at bunking and defending the point.

You are still fighting for a thief’s job when you are less effective at it. The map designs are a the main reason for that, too much verticality that gives the advantage to professions that can teleport and too many places to LoS. The only map where we are superior to a thief is Foefire. There we can use the range to our advantage, we have a nice open field of view and can easily cover 2 points at once. If we need to get on point quickly, one leap will cover the majority of the distance.

The new stronghold PvP looks like we will have a much better shot of making it into the meta. It’s hard to tell from the gameplay I saw but it looks like there will be spots where we can hop up on the wall and easily take out the other teams gate breakers. On offense we can speed the npc’s along and use our range and cc to take out enemy npc’s and players before they get close. Even in lords room we can pump out damage on the lord while staying relatively safe instead of sitting in a ton of AoE. It’s going to be like escorting dolyaks in WvW, a melee player can never stop me from killing a dolyak, but I’ve killed plenty of melee players trying to kill dolyaks before they could get close enough to land a hit.

Edit: Sorry if I rambled a bit, I probably shouldn’t post before having my coffee.

My opinion : rangers can bring something in this objective-based PvP even if they don’t stand on a node. Being able to stand on a node is not a must, otherwise thieves and mesmers would have disappeared from the games long ago. Other things come into play, like mobility, spike damage, utility, … For example, while the Mesmer’s burst is higher, the Ranger damage is higher than a Mesmer over a longer period. But this is really map dependant.

On Foefire, we can safely DPS mid from a distance very effectively, forcing the ennemy team to react to us. In addition, our decent mobility allows us to cover the close and to intercept someone trying to backcap.

On Niflhel though, it doesn’t work like that. There is almost no spot for a ranger to use the range advantage effectively. Protecting the close while fighting at mid is impossible. The Cromlech point offers almost no possibility to engage from a distance. It makes our lives much more difficult.

Khylo and Temple are in-between. While there are some good spots to range from, the verticality of those maps give instant-teleport classes an advantage.

Ouroboros.5076:

My opinion : rangers can bring something in this objective-based PvP even if they don’t stand on a node. Being able to stand on a node is not a must, otherwise thieves and mesmers would have disappeared from the games long ago. Other things come into play, like mobility, spike damage, utility, … For example, while the Mesmer’s burst is higher, the Ranger damage is higher than a Mesmer over a longer period. But this is really map dependant.

On Foefire, we can safely DPS mid from a distance very effectively, forcing the ennemy team to react to us. In addition, our decent mobility allows us to cover the close and to intercept someone trying to backcap.

On Niflhel though, it doesn’t work like that. There is almost no spot for a ranger to use the range advantage effectively. Protecting the close while fighting at mid is impossible. The Cromlech point offers almost no possibility to engage from a distance. It makes our lives much more difficult.

Khylo and Temple are in-between. While there are some good spots to range from, the verticality of those maps give instant-teleport classes an advantage.

This is exactly how I feel about where the longbow ranger stands. On some maps, with the right team, it can be extremely effective. It’s really strong between mid and home on Foefire. You can influence both points if there are point holding bruisers on them. Especially if they can help coordinate a burst with a timely immobilize. A Rapid Fire with SotW on a 6/5/3/0/0 build is going to hurt a lot and can push a fight quickly, allowing you to move back to the other.

Like you said, on Forest it becomes a bit more difficult. The points are more spread out and takes a bit more to travel between them. There isn’t a spot where you can take advantage of the range to influence multiple fights. I almost always run condi survival on this map and work either home or far depending on enemy rotations.

And as you put so well again, Khylo and Temple are in the middle.

Puck and Ouroboros are quite correct about the maps. In my opinion as well, Foefire by far favors a longbow ranger as you can sit up on that cliff and cover 2 points with damage that simply can’t be ignored. The other maps don’t allow. In fact, they more often cater to more close-quarters combat. This causes issues for Ranger as we lose some of the effectiveness of our Longbow and our pet AI has trouble with people smart enough to exploit the AI’s issues with terrain … or be a thief that evades and jumps around like Nightcrawler so much that a melee pet is barely ever on them.

@Puck:
None of us should post before having our coffee … but we do anyways ;-)

Lewis Burnell.2493:

…
How is being at range, dealing huge damage, ever a problem for a team game? That’s like saying a Mesmer won’t ever be Meta because they have to fight off point with Greatsword. It’s simply not a disadvantage, in any way. When you’ve four other players on your team capable of staying on point, the Ranger is in an excellent position to pin point targets, remain unharmed and use their utility from a long way away. Perhaps I’m a half-full sort of guy, but the Ranger being ranged is a huge advantage if your team actually use that range to their advantage. I know in the many tournament games I’ve played, targeting players who are downed, preventing stomps or pressuring a bunker is incredibly easy – all the while I’m out of the way.

Exactly because this is a team game.
A thief can prevent Finishers WHILE holding onto a point. AND dishing out better damage AND better utility.

While YOU think that it is an advantage to be at range (aka it’s more difficult to target you), it’s especially your team who is going to think otherwise.
While you are ranging the point safely (dishing lower damage than Thieves or Mesmers who are suited to fight on points), your team is suffering from lack of HP pools – which means they are going to be downed easier. And you are NOT going to be there to help Rally them or Revive them.

You see, they don’t really have to kill you. They just need to mitigate your Barrage/Rapid fire and that’s it. And there are lots of ways to do that.

You see, auto-attack damage for roughly 1300 per second that is single target is not even close to celestial ele/engi damage output that, sadly, is AoE.
I actually blow out much higher DPS in my celestial (not even full condi) Ranger build – but I have 22K hp and if you get caught in entangle – you die in 4 seconds straight from full HP. Not to mention that I’m basically condition immune, I bring team utility and it’s actually pretty difficult to kill me.
And I am capable of reviving my teammates by immobilizing enemies, knockbacking enemies and fearing them – On every single map there is. And yes, my build is suited for on-point fighting.

In one way or another – Power Ranger is horrible unless you orientate all the team and strategy around them. Which is far too much investment knowing that the reward is not even going to be half as much as an Ele would bring.

Tragic Positive.9356:

Lewis Burnell.2493:

…
How is being at range, dealing huge damage, ever a problem for a team game? That’s like saying a Mesmer won’t ever be Meta because they have to fight off point with Greatsword. It’s simply not a disadvantage, in any way. When you’ve four other players on your team capable of staying on point, the Ranger is in an excellent position to pin point targets, remain unharmed and use their utility from a long way away. Perhaps I’m a half-full sort of guy, but the Ranger being ranged is a huge advantage if your team actually use that range to their advantage. I know in the many tournament games I’ve played, targeting players who are downed, preventing stomps or pressuring a bunker is incredibly easy – all the while I’m out of the way.

Exactly because this is a team game.
A thief can prevent Finishers WHILE holding onto a point. AND dishing out better damage AND better utility.

While YOU think that it is an advantage to be at range (aka it’s more difficult to target you), it’s especially your team who is going to think otherwise.
While you are ranging the point safely (dishing lower damage than Thieves or Mesmers who are suited to fight on points), your team is suffering from lack of HP pools – which means they are going to be downed easier. And you are NOT going to be there to help Rally them or Revive them.

You see, they don’t really have to kill you. They just need to mitigate your Barrage/Rapid fire and that’s it. And there are lots of ways to do that.

You see, auto-attack damage for roughly 1300 per second that is single target is not even close to celestial ele/engi damage output that, sadly, is AoE.
I actually blow out much higher DPS in my celestial (not even full condi) Ranger build – but I have 22K hp and if you get caught in entangle – you die in 4 seconds straight from full HP. Not to mention that I’m basically condition immune, I bring team utility and it’s actually pretty difficult to kill me.
And I am capable of reviving my teammates by immobilizing enemies, knockbacking enemies and fearing them – On every single map there is. And yes, my build is suited for on-point fighting.

In one way or another – Power Ranger is horrible unless you orientate all the team and strategy around them. Which is far too much investment knowing that the reward is not even going to be half as much as an Ele would bring.

You wanna share this build of yours?

Getting caught in entangle kills you, so I’d guess he’s taking Krait runes and/or dropping Torch on them.

Practically condition immune, so I imagine 6 points in [Nature Magic] for [Survival of the Fittest] … possibly also 6 points in [Wilderness Survival] for [Empathic Bond] … and maybe even [Signet of Renewal] though I think that would be ridiculous unless the build actually doesn’t have [Survival of the Fittest].

I imagine the build is something close to this as far as traits and weapons go:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fNAQRAnY8PDds2yiDLUtGgQoWFAtjhiNFcXvzwWD

Possibly reallocate 2 of those trait points out of Marksmanship based on preference … or simply pick a different Major Adept trait in Marksmanship. Several good options.

Going celestial instead of straight condition damage is intelligent given that both Axe and Sword make use of Power damage so it doesn’t “go to waste”. Ranger doesn’t really depend on crit chance so y ou don’t need a high one, but the precision is always welcome given the previously mentioned power damage.

Utilities could also be changed a bit for personal preference … same with heal … but that is a common setup given that the immunity is always welcome and you still have 3 survival abilities for cleanse + fury … and Muddy Terrain means you have both it and Entangle for immobilizing an opponent to aid in landing your attacks … not to mention your pets (depeneding on what you take, of course).

Sword+Torch/Axe+Dagger gives you two weapon sets with plenty of condition application and both have evasion as well so you have some extra defense. Some prefer to swap it to Sword+Dagger when being defensive and Axe+Torch when being offensive, but it’s up to personal preference again. Balance or Offense/Defense.

StickerHappy.8052:

You wanna share this build of yours?

If you insist =)

Longbow, Sword + Torch
Krait Runes
SotF
Keed Edge
Empathic Bond,
Sharpened edges, Muddy terrain, Lightning reflexes, Entangle

Celestial amulet, Geomancy sigils, (Sword energy, LB doom).
22,500 HP; 2700 armor.

And once you force the cooldowns and manage to hit the Entangle – you are capable of applying Burning, 18 stacks of bleed, poison, pet damage, and also 2-4K Rapid Fire depending on enemy armor.
All that while providing AoE immobilize, AoE fear and Water field + 6 AoE condi cleanse from that.

Too lazy to make a build =/ But I hope this helps.

Interesting, will have to try that sometime. Looks like it could be fun :-)

Trying to fill in the holes that weren’t mentioned …

Since you mentioned a “Water Field”, I assume you’re using [Healing Spring].

Since the build has so many Survival skills, I assume the Major Adept trait in Wilderness Survival is [Wilderness Knowledge]

Not sure what those remaining three traits are, but there are some good options.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fNAQNAT8fjMq0xaLL2sQ1aABhaVA0uG0Cu5rB-TZRHwABeCACOIAAuAAh2f4YZAA

Given the abundance of cleanses in the build, I’m curious about swapping out [Emphatic Bond] and taking [Bark Skin] instead.

Rangers have a hard time in the meta because just like with mesmers, thieves push them out. Both d/p and s/d can easily kill a ranger.
With s/d you may have a fighting chance but the moment d/p got close to you the fight is over. And since they have on demand stealth it’s not even that hard.
What is more, mesmers and dps guards are also countering power rangers to a certain extent.
Both thief and mesmer can disengage pretty safely if the situation gets bad. Ranger doesn’t really have as much stealth,evades and basically 0 teleports.

As for condi ranger it’s pretty strong and easy to play(111111) but it’s just weaker than other condi classes. Condi necro brings boon removal and can chain cc via fears, and condi engi has very strong and also spammable node pressure.

What might I ask are you doing 11111 with on a Condition-spec’d Ranger?

Sebrent.3625:

What might I ask are you doing 11111 with on a Condition-spec’d Ranger?

You see, I use longbow for utility.
Not the damage. I mostly use it for the stealth and knockback (that is cool when fighting on point). Also – opening with barrage helps a lot when fighting on points.

I usually avoid longbow in the long turn, and I keep it for “when the time comes”.
But if you happen to be on cooldown of Swap, just look for the target below 70% hp (in case he has regen or whatnot) – shoot 1 – blow Rapid Fire and apply 3k damage paired with 5 stacks that will bleed the target for total of ~3600 damage.
Then stealth away – push someone back, bait people into following you off point – swap into sword > root them out > jump back in….

And stuff like that can happen. You do not really use Longbow as a DPS weapon.
EDIT: Gee, I’m blind, didn’t realize that’s not targeted at me;

Sebrent.3625:

What might I ask are you doing 11111 with on a Condition-spec’d Ranger?

Probably running shortbow. I’m more curious what he meant about the fight being over as soon as a d/p thief gets close… I mean I guess it’s true that those fights usually end quickly but it rarely goes well for the thief.

In addition to the lack of teles, rangers also lack burst. Every other berserker class out there has a true burst, unloading lethal amounts of damage instantly or nearly instantly (maybe not necros, I’m not terribly familiar with their “meta” build.) LB rangers do good damage, but it isn’t fast enough. Many of the meta builds can simply outsustain a “burst” by 2 longbow rangers, where basically no one can survive a burst from 2 of any panic strike thief, medi guard, GS mesmer, even a static discharge engi because you don’t have time to react.

Melee rangers pack way more burst than and even more mobility than LB rangers. I’m pretty surprised more people aren’t trying those. They still fall flat from lack of teles, and despite insane 1v1 abilities, don’t have the sustainability of a thief.

Fluffball.8307:

In addition to the lack of teles, rangers also lack burst. Every other berserker class out there has a true burst, unloading lethal amounts of damage instantly or nearly instantly (maybe not necros, I’m not terribly familiar with their “meta” build.) LB rangers do good damage, but it isn’t fast enough. Many of the meta builds can simply outsustain a “burst” by 2 longbow rangers, where basically no one can survive a burst from 2 of any panic strike thief, medi guard, GS mesmer, even a static discharge engi because you don’t have time to react.

Melee rangers pack way more burst than and even more mobility than LB rangers. I’m pretty surprised more people aren’t trying those. They still fall flat from lack of teles, and despite insane 1v1 abilities, don’t have the sustainability of a thief.

I used to play a full melee build once.
… It was a blast, actually. I was able to beat most of decent DPS guards and most of d/d Eles (I obviously lost some).
But they do have ridiculous stuff. 3 Leap Finishers + 1 Blast finisher (I ran GS – Sw+Wh) – and I had lots of mobility, evades, sustain, Stability, condi cleanse, Maul every 4 seconds and … Well …
I didn’t really bring anything but high tunnel sustained DPS that was good for dueling. I still blew at TF’s, I still had no high burst. My damage peak took 3 seconds to finish.

Usual longbow damage.
Hunter’s shot.
Swap to Greatsword with Sigil of Intelligence.
Maul + Hilt Bash (… or Hilt Bash + Maul)

Some wonderful damage there. Not nearly as quick as what I can do with a Mesmer or a Thief … but I also feel it can sometimes be more flexible and I can do it while still being a bit more passively durable … we don’t have the action defenses via evasion for days like thieves (without using Ranger Sword+Dagger) and don’t have Distortion like Mesmer … double if they traited for it and use that trait intelligently.

Fluffball.8307:

In addition to the lack of teles, rangers also lack burst. Every other berserker class out there has a true burst, unloading lethal amounts of damage instantly or nearly instantly (maybe not necros, I’m not terribly familiar with their “meta” build.) LB rangers do good damage, but it isn’t fast enough. Many of the meta builds can simply outsustain a “burst” by 2 longbow rangers, where basically no one can survive a burst from 2 of any panic strike thief, medi guard, GS mesmer, even a static discharge engi because you don’t have time to react.

Melee rangers pack way more burst than and even more mobility than LB rangers. I’m pretty surprised more people aren’t trying those. They still fall flat from lack of teles, and despite insane 1v1 abilities, don’t have the sustainability of a thief.

Melee ranger has more burst than LB? I don’t think so…

The damage modifier on RF is 1320*3.75
The damage modifier on Maul is 434*1.5

Plus maul is a lot harder to land, and you’re getting hit while you do it.

GS is weak. Seriously weak. Especially compared to Guard GS.

Sube Dai.8496:

Fluffball.8307:

In addition to the lack of teles, rangers also lack burst. Every other berserker class out there has a true burst, unloading lethal amounts of damage instantly or nearly instantly (maybe not necros, I’m not terribly familiar with their “meta” build.) LB rangers do good damage, but it isn’t fast enough. Many of the meta builds can simply outsustain a “burst” by 2 longbow rangers, where basically no one can survive a burst from 2 of any panic strike thief, medi guard, GS mesmer, even a static discharge engi because you don’t have time to react.

Melee rangers pack way more burst than and even more mobility than LB rangers. I’m pretty surprised more people aren’t trying those. They still fall flat from lack of teles, and despite insane 1v1 abilities, don’t have the sustainability of a thief.

Melee ranger has more burst than LB? I don’t think so…

The damage modifier on RF is 1320*3.75
The damage modifier on Maul is 434*1.5

Plus maul is a lot harder to land, and you’re getting hit while you do it.

GS is weak. Seriously weak. Especially compared to Guard GS.

The autoattack is still kitten, even after the buff.

Sube Dai.8496:

Melee ranger has more burst than LB? I don’t think so…

The damage modifier on RF is 1320*3.75
The damage modifier on Maul is 434*1.5

Plus maul is a lot harder to land, and you’re getting hit while you do it.

GS is weak. Seriously weak. Especially compared to Guard GS.

I was thinking of path of scars, but anyway, maul hits insanely hard when buffed by moment of clarity and any number of other things like signet of the hunt or whatever. We don’t have a really standard melee build so it’s hard to say what said melee ranger is running. If you want burst you probably at least have s/a and gs with MoC. Counterattack is also worth mentioning.

RF isn’t burst at all when you compare to how other classes can stack their damage so everything lands instantly. Your guardian greatsword example is complete pooh compared to the total of the shield and meditation explosion. Same thing with the mesmer greatsword actually. All the examples I listed are insta-cast or nearly so.

RF is way easier to land than maul or PoS. Way easier.

MoC increases next attack by 50%. Even buffed Maul does not hit as hard as RF. Its no where near it in fact.

PoS is not much better. It has a weaker multiplier than Maul. It is only better if it hits twice, but is still way less than RF.

Just look at the numbers. Power Melee ranger is one of the least viable specs in the game.

I’m not talking about viable, whatever that means. I’m talking about burst, of which rangers have none aside from a couple melee skills.

In short, no burst, no instacast, and no teles means not a very good DPS role.

Edit: I’m not necessarily saying we need burst. Ranger is built around sustained damage and our own sustained survival, no matter what possible build you’re running… it’s just what the devs did with the entire profession. That’s why I think power ranger is having trouble being shoved in to the meta, and why condi ranger works so effortlessly.

What I meant with 1111 on condi ranger is that most of your damage comes from shortbow autos.
Most damage besides rapid fire is sword auto. Good luck using that in a team fight as a zerker amulet. That’s why a power ranger’s most high practical dps(as in dps that you can actually do without dying the first few seconds) is longbow paired with some finishing burst from maul. After that you usually reposition back to a safe place to continue longbow attacks.
Thief and dps guard combo is probably stronger than thief and mesmer combo because dps guard has more snares, more sustain(at the price of limited range pressure) and isn’t eaten alive by thieves.