Guild Wars 2

Heyo,

Just looking for what the difference is in DPS for Sword auto vs Greatsword Auto+Maul on CD.

Let’s just use Berserker gear and the standard 65030 setup to simplify things.

I’ve read somewhere that the difference is about 17% in favor of sword. I suppose it becomes even more if you take axe off-hand for path of scars, plus you have 2 evades on sword which you can use to keep the trait from MM that gives you 10% more dmg when endurance is full.

Sword wins big time, it’s a no-brainer.

Not trying to derail the thread, but would 45050 maximize GS dmg because of Two-Hand Mastery + Bountiful Hunter?

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

I’ve read somewhere that the difference is about 17% in favor of sword. I suppose it becomes even more if you take axe off-hand for path of scars, plus you have 2 evades on sword which you can use to keep the trait from MM that gives you 10% more dmg when endurance is full.

Sword wins big time, it’s a no-brainer.

Only problem I have with sword is that it feels weird to use, which is why I’m asking. 17% is a huge number though.

Sarision.6347:

Not trying to derail the thread, but would 45050 maximize GS dmg because of Two-Hand Mastery + Bountiful Hunter?

Yeah, yeah it would.

Has anyone done the math to figure out how much the damage shifts when fighting multiple opponents? That 5 man maul does some pretty decent damage.

Gabe.6810:

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

I’ve read somewhere that the difference is about 17% in favor of sword. I suppose it becomes even more if you take axe off-hand for path of scars, plus you have 2 evades on sword which you can use to keep the trait from MM that gives you 10% more dmg when endurance is full.

Sword wins big time, it’s a no-brainer.

Only problem I have with sword is that it feels weird to use, which is why I’m asking. 17% is a huge number though.

Sarision.6347:

Not trying to derail the thread, but would 45050 maximize GS dmg because of Two-Hand Mastery + Bountiful Hunter?

Yeah, yeah it would.

The difference IS huge. The sword “wierdness” is an issue for all new rangers, but if you plan on playing a lot and doing meta runs, learn how to use it. There are plenty videos showing ranger melee sword vs pretty much every boss.

Having said that, there are some fights where I’d swap to GS for 5 target maul, and the fact that you don’t really need a target. (CoF P2 defending the asura planting the bomd is a perfect example to that).

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

The difference IS huge. The sword “wierdness” is an issue for all new rangers, but if you plan on playing a lot and doing meta runs, learn how to use it. There are plenty videos showing ranger melee sword vs pretty much every boss.

I’m not really having an issue with it single target- I don’t mind using swords on high health opponents or when I can lock on a single target and let it fly for cleaving but I do have problems with killing groups which is why I ask- I would use GS+Sword/X but I really like having a longbow (or shortbow) in my swap- shortbow being my favorite ranger weapon but I understand it has no place in PvE apart from open world.

I can’t seem to get a hold on AoE cleaving mobs with the sword- I happily wear it for bosses but when targets are all over I either don’t hit more than one mob or I go flying everywhere because my targets keep switching and I end up way out of the battle.

Jim Hunter.6821:

Has anyone done the math to figure out how much the damage shifts when fighting multiple opponents? That 5 man maul does some pretty decent damage.

If the difference is 17% for single-target, they’d break just even against 2 opponents and greatsword would do 6-7% better against 3.

17% is resonable, when I calculate (nothing as fancy as including traits) I get it to 14% loss for greatsword AA+maul vs. sword AA , and 20% loss for greatsword single-target when path of scars and counter throw are counted in.

Adrian Guardian.9480:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Has anyone done the math to figure out how much the damage shifts when fighting multiple opponents? That 5 man maul does some pretty decent damage.

If the difference is 17% for single-target, they’d break just even against 2 opponents and greatsword would do 6-7% better against 3.

17% is resonable, when I calculate (nothing as fancy as including traits) I get it to 14% loss for greatsword AA+maul vs. sword AA , and 20% loss for greatsword single-target when path of scars and counter throw are counted in.

So you’re saying it’s okay to use GS in dungeons before the boss and then swap to Sword+something for the boss?

Sword is the clear favorite against single targets but I’m not fully convinced that it’s the superior choice when fighting trash mobs. Something to consider is that the 2nd attack in the sword auto chain only hits one target. GS also has the advantage of a 1s evade on the auto chain that equates to about 40% passive damage mitigation, which can be useful for maintaining scholar rune’s damage bonus.

I think it was Nike who did the math for multiple opponents, and s/a wins up till 5 targets, where GS wins by a few percent.

If you really like ranger, I think it’s always worth getting used to the sword, for whatever game mode.

I usually use GS for things like gravelings or the charr assassins in CoF, that kind of trash where the mobility and AA evade really pay off.

We hashed this out pretty thoroughly earlier in the year. The belief that sword out-does greatsword DPS against multiple targets comes from a miscalculation – either thinking that all of sword’s attacks cleave (Kick does not), or forgetting to take into account GS’ higher base damage stat.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/greatsword-vs-sword-warhorn/page/2

Here’s a summary of how it broke down back then (sword autoattack vs GW auto + Maul spam):

Sword
1 target = 1378 DPS
2 targets = 2315 DPS
3 targets = 3766 DPS

GS no traits
1 target = 1209 DPS (88% sword)
2 targets = 2418 DPS (104% sword)
3 targets = 3627 DPS (110% sword)

GS w/ Martial Mastery
1 target = 1289 DPS (94% sword)
2 targets = 2578 DPS (111% sword)
3 targets = 3867 DPS (118% sword)

GS w/ 2H Training
1 target = 1306 DPS (95% sword)
2 targets = 2611 DPS (113% sword)
3 targets = 3917 DPS (120% sword)

I haven’t had the time to play much, much less do new calcs. The math does need to be updated to take into account the changes to 2HT (fury is a PITA to incorporate since damage increase depends on base crit chance) and the new Predator’s Onslaught trait (the increased number of targets on Maul doesn’t change anything because by the time you’re at 4-5 targets GS is vastly superior to sword). But I use GS with either Martial Mastery or 2HT so the 10% extra damage from Predator’s Onslaught isn’t enough to tip things back in sword’s favor against multiple targets. Also note that the cripple on sword comes from Kick, which does not cleave. So you get the PO damage bonus only against a single target.

The actual DPS figures aren’t as important as the percent differences. We ignored things like crit chance, crit damage, and damage bonus traits since they’ll just scale the DPS by the same amount for both weapons assuming identical builds and equipment.

If the difference between single target DPS is only 5% it should be fine to use in dungeons right?

Gabe.6810:

If the difference between single target DPS is only 5% it should be fine to use in dungeons right?

Define “should be fine”. Yes you can play , and yes you can do damage either way. Although you are holding yourself back for no reason which will not be appreciated by others.

Assuming you are talking hypothetically, because the difference between GS and S/A is as we said before about 17% and not 5…

Solandri.9640:

We hashed this out pretty thoroughly earlier in the year. The belief that sword out-does greatsword DPS against multiple targets comes from a miscalculation – either thinking that all of sword’s attacks cleave (Kick does not), or forgetting to take into account GS’ higher base damage stat.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/greatsword-vs-sword-warhorn/page/2

Here’s a summary of how it broke down back then (sword autoattack vs GW auto + Maul spam):

Sword
1 target = 1378 DPS
2 targets = 2315 DPS
3 targets = 3766 DPS

GS no traits
1 target = 1209 DPS (88% sword)
2 targets = 2418 DPS (104% sword)
3 targets = 3627 DPS (110% sword)

GS w/ Martial Mastery
1 target = 1289 DPS (94% sword)
2 targets = 2578 DPS (111% sword)
3 targets = 3867 DPS (118% sword)

GS w/ 2H Training
1 target = 1306 DPS (95% sword)
2 targets = 2611 DPS (113% sword)
3 targets = 3917 DPS (120% sword)

I haven’t had the time to play much, much less do new calcs. The math does need to be updated to take into account the changes to 2HT (fury is a PITA to incorporate since damage increase depends on base crit chance) and the new Predator’s Onslaught trait (the increased number of targets on Maul doesn’t change anything because by the time you’re at 4-5 targets GS is vastly superior to sword). But I use GS with either Martial Mastery or 2HT so the 10% extra damage from Predator’s Onslaught isn’t enough to tip things back in sword’s favor against multiple targets. Also note that the cripple on sword comes from Kick, which does not cleave. So you get the PO damage bonus only against a single target.

The actual DPS figures aren’t as important as the percent differences. We ignored things like crit chance, crit damage, and damage bonus traits since they’ll just scale the DPS by the same amount for both weapons assuming identical builds and equipment.

People seem to forget that sword is one-hand weapon and GS is two-handed…
Those test would be true if you ran only with sword equiped and nothing on the other hand. With an axe off hand where path of scars and occasionally WD comes to play, sword is still better for multi targets in most situations.

Also since it’s grouped content we are talking about (else why bother), PO trait’s damage is there in most occasions and has nothing to do with kick being 1 target skill. It comes to play when enemies are under crippled/immo/chilled, and the conds do not have to come from you. (Even though you have access to them like barrage and then swap, or cold snap from Frost spirit.. etc)

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

Assuming you are talking hypothetically, because the difference between GS and S/A is as we said before about 17% and not 5…

The last numbers he gives places traited GS kitten lower-

Though if the offhand isn’t included then Sword will obviously be much better.

Gabe.6810:

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

Assuming you are talking hypothetically, because the difference between GS and S/A is as we said before about 17% and not 5…

The last numbers he gives places traited GS kitten lower-

Who does? If you are talking about Solandri.9640 previous post, he said that the tests are from earlier this year and he did not have an off-hand. It really means nothing at the moment.

Gabe.6810:

Though if the offhand isn’t included then Sword will obviously be much better.

He did the testing with warhorn (as I saw on the link name, I didn’t clicked it), which means no off-hand on multi mob situation.

You can’t compare a 2 handed weapon with 1 handed, it’s just dumb.

GS w/ Maul == 1708.
Sword w/ PoS == 2100.

I can break it down later if anyone really cares.

Paper DPS is just that – paper DPS.

One might end up having a higher DPS with the GS, than with the Sword, if AA is disabled, to stay at an optimal position, which reduces the Sword DPS by a good amount, while you can still move freely, swinging your GS left and right.

It’s important to know on which situation a GS outperforms a Sword in terms of DPS.
Generally, if you’re always running dungeons with guildies/friends and you all know what to do, mostly, you can relatively safely spam your Sword #1, which makes it superior to the GS in terms of DPS, but if mobility and/or a bigger cleave is neccessary, the GS is the better choice.

I use the GS with PoS, btw. That actually increases the viable choices of active pets to choose from to me, so when solo, i can use one pet to fill in the cripple/chill/immo gap if both LB#5 and GS#4 are in CD.

Snow-Doge all the way, cripple+AoE chill.

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

People seem to forget that sword is one-hand weapon and GS is two-handed…

I agree sword has the advantage of a variable off-hand weapon. However, OP specifically asked for sword auto vs GS auto + Maul.

Those test would be true if you ran only with sword equiped and nothing on the other hand. With an axe off hand where path of scars and occasionally WD comes to play, sword is still better for multi targets in most situations.

WD is a DPS loss. Sword and Axe have the same average base weapon damage, so that can be ignored. Sword’s two cleaving attacks are a 0.6 and 0.7 coeff, and the autoattack cycle time is 1.8 sec.

• (0.6 + 0.6 + 0.7) coeff / 1.8 sec = 1.056 coeff/sec single target
• (0.6 + 0.7) coeff / 1.8 sec = 0.722 coeff/sec cleave

WD is a 3.0 coeff over 5.25 sec.

• 3.0 coeff / 5.25 sec = 0.57 coeff/sec
• 12 vulnerability for 10 sec w/ 25 sec cooldown is an average 4.8% DPS increase.
• 0.722 * 0.048 = 0.035 coeff/sec from the vulnerability applied to sword (actually less since some of it falls within WD, but I don’t wanna take the time to calculate it exactly)
• 0.57 + 0.035 = 0.605 coeff/sec total all targets

So stopping sword autoattack to use WD actually decreases your DPS by about 43% against a single target, 16%. against cleave targets. Save WD for when you need the reflect.

I’ve been wondering about Path of Scars as well. It’s the highest DPS skill for ranger (the coefficient is only 1.2, but it hits twice, sometimes 3 times). Unfortunately I still haven’t figured out a way to calculate aftercast delay. The cast time for a skill understates its total cast time (time you’re locked out of using other skills). e.g. Sword autoattack’s chain only works out to a 1.5 sec cast time. But the aftercast delays bumpt it up to a 1.8 sec cycle time. Likewise GS autoattack’s chain is only 1.75 sec cast time, but its actual cycle time is about 2.55 sec. Still, it seems the range of aftercast delays is 0.1-0.25 sec.

With a 15 sec cooldown, PoS can be used every 15.6-15.75 sec. The single target overall DPS is then:

• (15 * 1.055 + 2.4) / 15.6 = 1.168 coeff/sec
• (15 * 1.055 + 2.4) / 15.75 = 1.157 coeff/sec

Cleave target overall DPS is then:

• (15 * 0.722 + 2.4) / 15.6 = 0.848 coeff/sec
• (15 * 0.722 + 2.4) / 15.75 = 0.84 coeff/sec

Greatsword has a 1.1x higher base weapon damage. Autoattack coefficients are 0.55, 0.55, 0.65 on a 2.55 sec cycle.

• 1.1 * (0.55 + 0.55 + 0.65) / 2.55 = 0.755 coeff/sec

Maul has a 1.5 coeff (this was supposed to have been increased to 1.7 in a patch long ago, but I haven’t seen any evidence that it was). 6 sec cooldown, 5 stacks of vulnerability lasting 8 sec increases damage an average of 6.7%

• 1.067 * (6 * 0.755 + 1.1*1.5) / 6.85 = 0.963 coeff/sec
• 1.067 * (6 * 0.755 + 1.1*1.5) / 7 = 0.942 coeff/sec

So in summary:

S/A + PoS
1.157 – 1.168 coeff/sec – single target
1.997 – 2.016 coeff/sec – two targets
2.837 – 2.864 coeff/sec – three targets

GS + Maul
0.942 – 0.963 coeff/sec – single target (81%-82% of S/A)
1.884 – 1.926 coeff/sec – two targets (94% – 96% of S/A)
2.826 – 2.889 coeff/sec – three targets (100% – 101% of S/A)

This is contingent however on the second and third targets being in a straight line for PoS to hit. Given the way sword’s autoattack works, time taken to reposition yourself to get your targets in a line is lost DPS. GS’s cleave OTOH seems to be a 270 degree arc. I think that’s a large part of why so many players want to use it – it is so much easier to use.

I need to get going so I’m not going to analyze for traits. My back of the envelope calculation says Martial Mastery vs Off-hand Training will favor S/A slightly, though it may be offset by the higher vulnerability from Maul. 2HT will of course favor Greatsword, as there is no off-hand axe equivalent.

Also since it’s grouped content we are talking about (else why bother), PO trait’s damage is there in most occasions and has nothing to do with kick being 1 target skill. It comes to play when enemies are under crippled/immo/chilled, and the conds do not have to come from you. (Even though you have access to them like barrage and then swap, or cold snap from Frost spirit.. etc)

If that’s the case, then you can simply remove PO’s extra damage from the analysis entirely. If the other group members are crippling/immo/chilling the targets, then you will get the 10% PO bonus with any weapon, and the trait is no longer an advantage of using sword.

Contrary to what you may think, I’m not trying to favor GS. I tend to analyze to try to prove myself wrong. Because I happen to like GS, I make assumptions which work against GS. That’s why I listed PO as an advantage for sword, and why I calculated the above assuming all your targets are in a straight line, and didn’t include Crippling Throw in GS’s DPS (most people will want to save it for the block).

For packs of trash mobs you can just open with PoS→swap GS→Crippling Throw→Swoop→Maul→Auto using Maul on CD.

Solandri.9640:

-snip-

Thank you so much for your detailed post. It’s very obvious single target DPS favors the sword and that multi-target DPS only favors the GS if you count in the inconveniences of using Sword on multi-targets.

Using Maul on CD interupts AA Chain, bad timed interrupts cost dps.
Vulstacks…Bosses have – 50% vul duration. And it can be ignored in some partys (because other classes are stacking it to 20+).
Sword AA gives to your Pet, pets might is not for 20 sec like yours (blastfinishers) only for 10sec.
So need the sword AA to keep might on your pet.

Sword has got 2 dogdeskills, both are very potent. U should include them too.

I don´t think your calculations favor the sword.

Overall the GS is much weaker. Use it when u need max meleerange (Melandru Arah p4 Melee, or Grawlboss in volcano fractal). Or for trashmobs.
On most bosses the sword clearly outshines our GS.

Anet should buff it to make it a real and viable choice.

Norjena.5172:

Using Maul on CD interupts AA Chain, bad timed interrupts cost dps.
Vulstacks…Bosses have – 50% vul duration. And it can be ignored in some partys (because other classes are stacking it to 20+).
Sword AA gives to your Pet, pets might is not for 20 sec like yours (blastfinishers) only for 10sec.
So need the sword AA to keep might on your pet.

Sword has got 2 dogdeskills, both are very potent. U should include them too.

I don´t think your calculations favor the sword.

Overall the GS is much weaker. Use it when u need max meleerange (Melandru Arah p4 Melee, or Grawlboss in volcano fractal). Or for trashmobs.
On most bosses the sword clearly outshines our GS.

Anet should buff it to make it a real and viable choice.

More vuln is always good
Critical hits grant might to your pet trait is a standard, so pet might doesnt depend on sword AA
GS has evade in auto attack, and skill 3, and lets you dodge when you want…and you mentioned dps loss, check the dps loss between sword 2/3 and gs maul/skill 3

Dont get me wrong, sword is better dps in 1v1, and i prefer sw/axe to GS most of the time. But greatsword is very decent, and your arguments are weak

GS is not decent it needs the same dps then sword to be so.
Think not only about evades and dps, u will get more utility with the sword.

Axe: CC (to rip defiant), pull or reflexion
Warhorn: a nice looking but terribel skill 4, and might/fury/swiftness (is a good second set, not to use it infight
Torch: additional firefield (sometimes useful, in fractals for example)
Dagger: a third evadeskill with low cooldown.

GS AA Evade is….often not rdy if u have to dogde, most evades from GS are wasted.

I don´t understand the points here. U have a weapon with great skills. But “lower” dps. Then a weapon with nearly same evades and more utility.
Why not buff GS to give rangers a real choice?

A ranger using GS is never be as good or better then an engi or additional ele for your dungeonparty. And that´s just sad.

Norjena.5172:

Using Maul on CD interupts AA Chain, bad timed interrupts cost dps.

Using PoS on CD and sword evades also interrupts the sword AA chain. I figure the overall effect cancels out.

Vulstacks…Bosses have – 50% vul duration. And it can be ignored in some partys (because other classes are stacking it to 20+).

It’s never been questioned that sword is better against single targets like bosses.

Do note that the vulnerability (and DPS) from Maul can hit up to 5 targets now. I only included its effects for up to 3 targets.

Sword AA gives to your Pet, pets might is not for 20 sec like yours (blastfinishers) only for 10sec.
So need the sword AA to keep might on your pet.

If you read the previous topics I linked, I made clear the comparison did not include pet damage. I got tired of repeating that qualifier over and over when it seemed obvious to me, so I cut it this time since my post hit the 5000 char limit.

Some people use a pet for DPS. Some people use it just for buffs or utility (e.g. brown bear condition removal). The point of the comparison was see how the weapons stacked up against each other in direct damage, not how they affected the different pets.

If pet DPS is important to you, then you need to factor that into your weapon choice. But understand there’s a tradeoff between oversimplifying, and making the comparison so specific it becomes irrelevant to people. The more build-specific you make the analysis (e.g. assume a cat pet), the fewer people it becomes relevant to. If I run a cat pet, I may add its damage for my personal analysis. But I’m not going to include it in a forum post – that would just make the post useless to anyone not running a cat pet.

The might stack from sword AA is irrelevant anyway if you’re in a dungeon party with a 3 NM meta build for Fortifying Bond. You and the pet are going to have 25 might stacks regardless of which weapon you use.

Sword has got 2 dogdeskills, both are very potent. U should include them too.

The evades on sword have a short-medium activation time. The activation times really hurt your ability to use them to actually evade a telegraphed attack. Watching PvP videos, most players seem to just hit them whenever they’re available, rather than try to save them to use against telegraphed attacks.

The block on GS is nearly instant. The GS AA chain also has an evade built-in. In terms of percent of time spent evading (8 and 15 sec cooldown for sword, vs auto and 15 sec for GS) I’d say they’re pretty equal or even favoring GS (block can last up to 3 sec). In terms of being able to use an evade/block against a telegraphed attack, I’d say GS is superior. (They added an evade to Swoop, but it comes after the long leap so is pretty useless for avoiding telegraphed attacks.)

Having an evade in the GS AA chain also means you get an evade without reducing your DPS. OTOH, any time you use sword evades, sword is losing DPS. Since I’m trying to favor sword, I picked the scenario which gave sword the highest DPS – no evades. Overall I think GS wins when it comes to evades/blocks. It is considered the more defensive weapon after all.

I don´t think your calculations favor the sword.

Feel free to make your own calculations then. I’ll critique them if I think you’re leaving out something important, or learn from them (a lot of the factors I’ve included are things other people pointed out to me on the forums).

I try not to recommend a specific weapon or build. I just try to point out their relative strengths and weaknesses, and leave the final decision up to each individual player. I mostly use GS now, but that’s out of sheer laziness. I play games to relax, and the button-mashing involved with sword was counterproductive to that goal.

I started doing these calcs because I was curious how much I was losing by that decision. And I’m satisfied that I’m not losing much, and in some cases I actually come out ahead. (e.g. GS lets me attack a different target than the pet. That’s saved a couple CoF runs where someone else was having trouble at the braziers. I target one of their mobs and order the pet to attack, while I spam GS attacks manually to keep my brazier clear.) In boss fights on dungeon runs, I still use S/W (horn for the party speed/fury).

S/A + PoS
1.157 – 1.168 coeff/sec – single target
1.997 – 2.016 coeff/sec – two targets
2.837 – 2.864 coeff/sec – three targets

GS + Maul
0.942 – 0.963 coeff/sec – single target (81%-82% of S/A)
1.884 – 1.926 coeff/sec – two targets (94% – 96% of S/A)
2.826 – 2.889 coeff/sec – three targets (100% – 101% of S/A)

Your own numbers. 18% less dmg then sword on a singeltarget is much!

I rly think they should increase GS dmg by at least 10% to make it viable against singel targets.

Because our sword is something…special as u all know. Rangers should have a real choice.

Norjena.5172:

Because our sword is something…special as u all know. Rangers should have a real choice.

You see this is why I never pug with rangers… This is why the class’ reputation is so low.

Instead of having people in the forum asking to fix things that need fixing, we have the majority asking to buff a GS because we can’t learn to evade with sword and we are too lazy to practice.

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

Instead of having people in the forum asking to fix things that need fixing, we have the majority asking to buff a GS because we can’t learn to evade with sword and we are too lazy to practice.

It’s funny because the sword AA is fantastic in PvP. Nobody is going to get away from you.

Originally I made this thread to see if I could use GS exclusively but after practicing with it in PvE since this thread was open I find myself very comfortable with my sword and actually enjoying the dynamicism of it far more than most other weapons.

Gabe.6810:

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

Instead of having people in the forum asking to fix things that need fixing, we have the majority asking to buff a GS because we can’t learn to evade with sword and we are too lazy to practice.

It’s funny because the sword AA is fantastic in PvP. Nobody is going to get away from you.

Originally I made this thread to see if I could use GS exclusively but after practicing with it in PvE since this thread was open I find myself very comfortable with my sword and actually enjoying the dynamicism of it far more than most other weapons.

But you have to admit it would be easier if you stayed here asking for GS to get on-par with sword. Right? * looks at “some” people *

lol

The question is what is GS actually best at these days?

Frontline zerging?

That’s it, that’s all I can come up with…

Sube Dai.8496:

The question is what is GS actually best at these days?

Frontline zerging?

That’s it, that’s all I can come up with…

Dispatching three or more mobs.
Moving quickly.
Blocking projectiles while moving.
Control
Quick vulnerability (10 stacks instant with opening strike)
Staying at max weapon range.

It’s a good utility weapon. S/X+GS isn’t a bad weapon swap setup.

Norjena.5172:

Your own numbers. 18% less dmg then sword on a singeltarget is much!

As I said, nobody is arguing that GS is competitive with sword against a single target. Merely that it is “good enough” for casual use once you factor in the areas GS is better at.

I rly think they should increase GS dmg by at least 10% to make it viable against singel targets.

I’m curious what ever happened to the Maul damage increase promised last year:
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/release-notes-for-blood-and-madness/
“Maul: Damage for this skill has been increased by 7%. Vulnerability has been increased from 3 stacks to 5 stacks, and the duration has been increased from 6 seconds to 8 seconds.”

A 7% increase corresponds to the skill damage coefficient increasing from 1.5 to 1.6. Yet the wiki still says 1.5. I don’t know if that means nobody has tested it and the wiki hasn’t been updated. Or if the increase was never put in. Testing small changes like this are a PITA ever since they took out steady weapons. You now need a sample of more than 200 attacks just to get the margin of error below 7%. Even with Martial Mastery to reduce the cooldown, that’s 19 minutes of hitting Maul over and over.

That said, given how good GS is at defense and AOE damage, I disagree with increasing its single target DPS. It needs some weakness, otherwise most people would use it instead of sword. It needs a drawback, and low single target DPS is a pretty good one.

Because our sword is something…special as u all know. Rangers should have a real choice.

I was hoping that choice would come from making the weaker weapons more viable, not by bringing the (arguably) second-best weapon up to par with the best weapon.

The might added to axe autoattack just isn’t enough IMHO. I liked the proposal to change the bounce damage so instead of a 0.5, 0.5, 0.5 coefficient it had something more like a 1.0, 0.3, 0.2. Or even 1.0, 0.5, 0.25.

Perhaps, I am mistaken, but I think the weapons are balanced around competitive play and not PvE. A 10% boost to ranger GS would be unfair to other classes in PvP after last patch. Nothing could knock a cavalier / Valkyrie ranger off point with the ranger dishing out that much damage. The warrior and guardian forums would be full of QQ threads.

The speed running dungeon crowd that is concerned with max damage builds, in order to avoid interesting mechanics that would improve competitive play, is not going to sway weapon balance in a meaningful way. The designers have given every class (maybe not necros) a speed running build or two. It is asking way to much to expect every weapon to perform “optimally” for fringe max damage builds in a speed run scenario.

Anyone who does PvP will tell you the worst title you can see at the start of the match is “Dungeon Master” :-) You know I am right! So why balance weapons for PvE speed runs?

Gabe.6810:

Sube Dai.8496:

The question is what is GS actually best at these days?

Frontline zerging?

That’s it, that’s all I can come up with…

Dispatching three or more mobs.
Moving quickly.
Blocking projectiles while moving.
Control
Quick vulnerability (10 stacks instant with opening strike)
Staying at max weapon range.

It’s a good utility weapon. S/X+GS isn’t a bad weapon swap setup.

Yeh but lb + s/d is superior in every game mode. That is my problem which GS atm.

Its damage is not up to par with other melee weapons.

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

Norjena.5172:

Because our sword is something…special as u all know. Rangers should have a real choice.

You see this is why I never pug with rangers… This is why the class’ reputation is so low.

Instead of having people in the forum asking to fix things that need fixing, we have the majority asking to buff a GS because we can’t learn to evade with sword and we are too lazy to practice.

I can use the sword, im one of the few ranger who can even solo lupicus with sword/gs sword used often especially in phase3.

I just can´t see a point having a subpar weapon. And not a real choice.

Sometimes i just don´t like the sword. It´s not always fun to play. Vs Ingvar the Butcher for example.

Low reward for rly high risk. Even if u can play the sword well, it´s still one of the most difficult things to manage in pve.

In PvP GS needs a buff too.
U can´t pressure with GS. Dogde 2 and laugh about a ranger trying todo some dmg.
Yes alot people playing it, but i can´t see a rly high ranked ranger using GS.

Look at guardian GS for example it is viable. Not only because if it´s skills. It is viable because it does alot of dps just by using AA. It makes alot pressure over time.

Ranger with GS in pvp feels like attacking with a wet noodle. The kit is nice, but the AA does not enough dmg.

@Solandri Axe might was an interessting step. But i miss something like a bonus if u can only hit 1 target. More dmg or higher attackspeed (or a bounce between u and the target).
Axe is only weak in pve, in pvp it can work quite well.

Norjena.5172:

In PvP GS needs a buff too.
U can´t pressure with GS. Dogde 2 and laugh about a ranger trying todo some dmg.
Yes alot people playing it, but i can´t see a rly high ranked ranger using GS.

Look at guardian GS for example it is viable. Not only because if it´s skills. It is viable because it does alot of dps just by using AA. It makes alot pressure over time.

Ranger with GS in pvp feels like attacking with a wet noodle. The kit is nice, but the AA does not enough dmg.

I disagree that GS needs a buff in PvP. GS critical hits extremely high on 2, 3, and both versions of skill 4. The cleaving auto attack is powerful enough and has great range and mobility. It is meant to be used with high toughness, Valkyrie, Cavaliers, and Knights Armour. It’s very difficult to avoid maul in many situations (like when you are cc’d). People rarely dodge leap and sword throw. You won’t see it in PvP tournaments because the other ranger builds work better against the current Meta other classes are running.

The dmg diffrence between sword and greatsword is even higher in pvp. So yes, it needs a buff there.
Nonberserker trinket GS build hit like wet noodles. They don´t do enough pressure to take alot of cele/tankbuilds down.

Yes u can play them, but i won´t call them viable. Sword does it dmg just by using autoattacks. That´s a big advantage in pvp.

Just to interject an alternative approach into the discussion, the answer doesn’t necessarily have to be damage. It could be in the form of utility too.

If greatsword offered more group value to offset the DPS value 1h sword had, it would also have a place in this game. The problem really is the 2 weapons fill the same role.

While possibly overpowered, maul being a blast finisher would instantly make GS more valuable than sword. Two-Handed training granting fury to a group (~50% uptime) would also be valuable.

They could also introduce traits to make the ‘animal’ attacks on weapons provide something unique. Since the GS has 2, it may elevate it above 1h Sword.

Also worth discussing is Hilt Bash. It needs to have its range increased so the skill can be used more reliably on targets that aren’t actively running directly at us or standing still. Just another 100-150 on it would move all the difference in the world.

Atherakhia.4086:

Just to interject an alternative approach into the discussion, the answer doesn’t necessarily have to be damage. It could be in the form of utility too.

If greatsword offered more group value to offset the DPS value 1h sword had, it would also have a place in this game. The problem really is the 2 weapons fill the same role.

While possibly overpowered, maul being a blast finisher would instantly make GS more valuable than sword. Two-Handed training granting fury to a group (~50% uptime) would also be valuable.

They could also introduce traits to make the ‘animal’ attacks on weapons provide something unique. Since the GS has 2, it may elevate it above 1h Sword.

Also worth discussing is Hilt Bash. It needs to have its range increased so the skill can be used more reliably on targets that aren’t actively running directly at us or standing still. Just another 100-150 on it would move all the difference in the world.

I like these ideas. Both would be fine with me. I totally agree on hilt bash range increase and think the blast finishing maul would give us another role in Zerg. It would give us a situational damage increase which I like because it takes skill to benefit from.

Archon.6480:

Atherakhia.4086:

Just to interject an alternative approach into the discussion, the answer doesn’t necessarily have to be damage. It could be in the form of utility too.

If greatsword offered more group value to offset the DPS value 1h sword had, it would also have a place in this game. The problem really is the 2 weapons fill the same role.

While possibly overpowered, maul being a blast finisher would instantly make GS more valuable than sword. Two-Handed training granting fury to a group (~50% uptime) would also be valuable.

They could also introduce traits to make the ‘animal’ attacks on weapons provide something unique. Since the GS has 2, it may elevate it above 1h Sword.

Also worth discussing is Hilt Bash. It needs to have its range increased so the skill can be used more reliably on targets that aren’t actively running directly at us or standing still. Just another 100-150 on it would move all the difference in the world.

I like these ideas. Both would be fine with me. I totally agree on hilt bash range increase and think the blast finishing maul would give us another role in Zerg. It would give us a situational damage increase which I like because it takes skill to benefit from.

traited 4 1/2 secs per blast , while comboed with own fire traps and might lasting 20secs way longer.
it gives Other builds out of main Axe and BM to generate might, improves the image of jack of all trades and this is one Trade we lack in , Warhorn 5 is Extremely lacks for zerg play.

The problem with maul, at least in wvw, when you hit a group of enemies it always counts those that dodge or have some avoidance first toward the total hit, so it never (rarely anyway) hits near the max number of enemies having such a wide throw. Counter-intuitively, the more in your attack zone the better chance you’ll actually hit none. Tested this quite a bit, but not very scientifically, if someone wants to try and prove or disprove…

Other than that its an awesome skill, a buff would make it overpowered. Instead buff something like hilt bash, the range is still a bit too close.

Sword is more focused and has a better chance to land its damage. That aspect helps it too.

Sword has alot of utility. GS is only dmg/defensive. No reflection, no pull, no firefield, no partybuffs etc.
U can´t make a weapon viable just by boosting own! defensive stats and low dmg.
U need something partywide.

For example remove the dogde from AA3 but let Maul buff 2sec protection on allies within 300 range. Would be awesome for pve/pvp because u can buff your pet with protection.

Things like this need to happen. Otherwise the GS will never be a real option if u trie to min/max.

Same dps, but other advantages or utlity. This is the way to balance weapons. And then people have the choice to pick up the weapon they want, or the one who better fits the situation.