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Posted by: Rognik.2579

Rognik.2579

Anyone want to theorize why rangers don’t use pistols or rifles? It seemed like it’d be a perfect fit, unless the idea is that rangers are more traditional in their fighting style. I’m just hoping the next elite spec will add in one of these for some big game hunting or the like.

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Posted by: Justine.6351

Justine.6351

I’d give you my opinion on why I wouldn’t want them but I would get infracted for having an opinion.

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Posted by: Fluffball.8307

Fluffball.8307

I’d give you my opinion on why I wouldn’t want them but I would get infracted for having an opinion.

Ha, I see you have also been randomly banned. I’ve been banned and then unbanned twice. Mods be crazy (indecisive).

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Posted by: Ghotistyx.6942

Ghotistyx.6942

They probably didn’t have them for reasons, but with the advent of elite specs, They’ll get them eventually. Perhaps even soon™.

Fishsticks

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Posted by: Rognik.2579

Rognik.2579

I’d give you my opinion on why I wouldn’t want them but I would get infracted for having an opinion.

If you’re afraid of saying it publicly, tell me in a private message. I’m surprisingly open-minded about such things, so long as you promise to be the same. What’s the point of a discussion if neither side is willing to change their mind?

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Posted by: Wolfey.3407

Wolfey.3407

I’d imagine the main reason they didn’t have them in the first place is keeping with the nature theme of the class. I think a rifle would be pushing it but the more suiting of the two options. We do have a speargun, so a rifle would be the next step.

I think pistols would be a little off for Ranger…. unless it’s going to be some type of Rancher Wild Wild West type thing? McCree 2.0?

Former PvP Forum Specialist
2015-2016
Fort Aspenwood

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Posted by: Chrispy.5641

Chrispy.5641

Pistol + Ranger = magnificent misfit wouldn’t be any worse than Staff + Ranger = astrology dropout.

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Posted by: Djahlat.9610

Djahlat.9610

I don’t want them for two reasons
1) we have already 3 weapons that are entirely reliant on projectiles, and it’s quite bothersome against the mass of reflects and projectile mitigation in-game
2) It doesn’t fit the thematic of the ranger as I know it. We are masters of archery, skirmishes, beastmastery, survival, and nature magic. I’ll leave the gunslinger role to thieves, engineers and warriors

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Posted by: gannondorf.7628

gannondorf.7628

It would be very nice, mainly for charr rangers, melting the iron legion technology with some nature taming. I would definitly make a ranger if rifle or double pistol are a thing. But rangers already seems to have a lot of range weapons for now so…

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Posted by: Ghotistyx.6942

Ghotistyx.6942

Neither Rifles nor Pistols have to be projectile slinging weapons. They could all be shotgun style cones.

Fishsticks

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Posted by: Serraphin Storm.2369

Serraphin Storm.2369

With all the projectile hate I don’t see it as something beneficial.

In order to properly understand the big picture,
everyone should fear becoming mentally clouded and obsessed with one small section of truth.

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Posted by: Bndgg.7065

Bndgg.7065

With all the projectile hate I don’t see it as something beneficial.

I would love to see ranger become a sniper class and utilize the rifle, but seeing how there are alot of projectile destroying/reflecting skills, it would be good in pve but not as easy in spvp/wvw.

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Posted by: Harnel.6810

Harnel.6810

I don’t want them for two reasons
1) we have already 3 weapons that are entirely reliant on projectiles, and it’s quite bothersome against the mass of reflects and projectile mitigation in-game
2) It doesn’t fit the thematic of the ranger as I know it. We are masters of archery, skirmishes, beastmastery, survival, and nature magic. I’ll leave the gunslinger role to thieves, engineers and warriors

1) I’m not really sure projectiles are an issue here. Projectile reflection/destruction skills tend to be very short lived outside of some edge cases, and if you have a rifle with a sniper setup (which appears to be the highest demand) you’d be rolling with a weapon that has a long space between attacks anyways, making it not mean much outside of high skill pvp. Which, admittedly, does matter for balance purposes, but it’s no different from what’s going on now and thus probably isn’t really a thing to worry about. Just look at pistol thieves.

2) Going to completely disagree here; the idea that “Archery” is the only ranged combat the class billed as the ranged combat master has is just wrong. Besides, we already have throwing axes. Additionally, why is the idea of guns contrary to nature magic? That really doesn’t make any sense. The only reason that “Technology” is contrasted to “Nature” in fiction is because of tolkien’s works, and he was heavily influenced in his work by the industrialization of the country he lived in while he was writing; it was horrible for a huge number of reasons, not just because it was “Unnatural”.

Furthermore, the idea of a hunter with a pet is not only interesting, but also based in reality. Ever heard of the dog breed called the Rhodesian Ridgeback? They were primarily used as a hunting companion; they’d distract things like lions and bears while the hunter would line up a shot. It’s a tactic called “baying” and would fit very well into the way Rangers operate. I imagine it’s a tactic used very, very often by Blood Legion warbeast tamers; can’t really worry about blocking the incoming sniper bullet while you have a Siege Devourer dancing on your face.

(edited by Harnel.6810)

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Posted by: Bast Bow.2958

Bast Bow.2958

I’ve never really liked the fact firearms were added to the game in the first place. Maybe comming from a too realistic point of view: putting 2 evenly (non) skilled persons against each other, 1 with a modern firearm, the other with a classic shortbow or longbow, the modern firearm would always win. I find firearms way too powerful and modern to be implemented in game.
Also the reason I didn’t like the engineer at all. Too modern and too powerful comming from the same point of view, being equipped with those modern weird weapons and tools.
Also I remember warrior being special because it could equip most weapons. Now with the elite specilisations warrior feels less special since all professions can equip another weapon. Even though warrior still can equip most.
Because of this I’m like yeah wth not also equip us with firearms. Every profession is getting everything eventually? But being totally honest. No! Blegh firearms go away from elegant stylish old fighting with honour.

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Posted by: Harnel.6810

Harnel.6810

Well Bast, do keep in mind comparisons here. Would you say a grenade or a fireball is more powerful? There’s no comparison we can make because the idea of both is to kill someone, but due to the overwhelmingly magical nature of Tyria, basic clothing is as good at countering things like bullets as well made but only lightly enchanted plate armor. One of the thief pistol skills is literally shooting someone in the head in a world where people often go without head protection and all it does is minor damage and a daze.

Additionally, bullets are much smaller than things like arrows or swords, and as such, can’t hold as much magic as said things; this means that while they have a higher level of base penetration, you can’t put as many enchantments into them. It’s why you see things like the heavy light guardian Trait for longbow but there’s nothing even remotely similar in rifle or pistol use. firearms are useful because they don’t have to be as heavily enchanted to keep up – that’s the idea, anyways.

As far as style goes, that’s your bag so I won’t challenge you on it, though I will point out that firearms have existed in one way or another since the 1300s.

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Posted by: Bast Bow.2958

Bast Bow.2958

about that shooting in the head: yeah so no firearms! :p
I find it hard to follow about putting enchantments into arrows, but I see where you’re comming from, I think.

It’s just my oppinion. I liked GW 1 better about this topic: no firearms, grenades and weird ‘new’ weapons which imo would obliberate (? no native speaker) the more classical weapons. It just feels off and not fitting. But hey that’s just how I feel about it. I do got used to it, it got implemented very well. But still, if I could scrap (pun) all and start over, no more ‘new’ weapons firearms belts nades tools, what’s next launchers? Then we roll into 20th century weapons blegh stop before the firearms! :p

(edited by Bast Bow.2958)

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Posted by: Harnel.6810

Harnel.6810

As far as the whole ‘enchanting bullets’ things goes, think of glasses of water, I suppose.

The smaller the glass, the less water you can put into it before it overflows and gets everywhere (which, with magic, would be more dangerous than just getting everything wet). So with a bullet, you have something small, about the size of your thumb, or around there. An arrow on the other hand is about the length of your forearm, and has proportionally higher mass. The more mass it has, the more ‘water’ (magic) you can pour in safely. The more you can put magic into an item, the more you can enchant it, and the more you can enchant it, the more deadly it is.

In this way, arrows are generally superior to bullets because they can be enchanted much more than a bullet can. Conversely, however, the technology behind a bullet allows it to shoot harder in a single go, as it propels the projectile at much greater speeds. Additionally, bows can’t allow for much mechanical customization, as changes to the structure of the bow’s limbs either throw off its balance, weigh it down, or otherwise adversely affect its use; guns don’t suffer from that, which is why engineers can attach things like net launchers, flamethrowers, and alternate fire modes to guns.

In Tyria, neither one is more powerful than the other. the gun can’t be nearly as well enchanted as the bow, but it’s capable of having much more versatility of design.

But yeah, we’re all entitled to our opinions. I just personally despise the idea of medieval stasis, so I’m personally quite glad that the charr brought in technology to the game world.

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Posted by: Bast Bow.2958

Bast Bow.2958

I understand you better now. I never thought of enchantments and magic in that way. Interesting way of looking at it.

I agree on the charr and technology, I think it’s awesome as well.

Also, it maybe is logical tyria has moved up and advanced in time too, so their weaponry did as well.

Then why am I still a bit repulsive against a fight between any of the more classical weapons and a rifle with a grenade? I’m afraid we’ll be going towards more and bigger explosions and weaponry in future, we have too many particle effects as it is.
Maybe I’ll have to think more about the enchantments and weapon part you stated.

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Posted by: Harnel.6810

Harnel.6810

Well, you say that, but we already sort of have laser cannon emplacements like the one in the tequatl fight. This stuff is available, but it’s not really practical unless you’re firing at some kind of superbeast. The charr and engineers also have mortars and the like. i doubt we’ll get anything bigger than that.

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Posted by: Bast Bow.2958

Bast Bow.2958

Hm yes. Forgot about those.
I have things to think about. Ty for your contribution

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Posted by: Ghotistyx.6942

Ghotistyx.6942

Firearms and Bows existed with each other for centuries on the battlefield. In fact, firearms were the main reason plate-style armor became prominent. Likewise, A modern bullet-resistant vest will protect you from most firearm projectiles while it will do nothing against an arrow.

Grenadiers have existed in Europe since the 1600s, and in China possibly much earlier. Both the Chinese and Koreans tossed rockets onto arrays of arrows within those time periods. Firearms were first used in China in the 1100s, while first used by a European nation (England) in the 1300s. They became much more popular in the 1500s and have grown since. Plate armor wasn’t popular until the 1400-1500s and didn’t decline until the 1700s. The famous English Longbow featured its largest popularity during the 1300-1500s. During the American Revolution (1770s), there was support in giving the American militia Bows instead of Firearms because they were still considered the superior weapon (faster fire rate and more accurate over distance). The time period GW2 best relates to can easily fit within the intersection of Bows and Firearms being prominent weapons on the battlefield.

So after all that, yes. Engineers and Rangers can play nice.

Fishsticks

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Posted by: Rognik.2579

Rognik.2579

I’ve never really liked the fact firearms were added to the game in the first place. Maybe comming from a too realistic point of view: putting 2 evenly (non) skilled persons against each other, 1 with a modern firearm, the other with a classic shortbow or longbow, the modern firearm would always win. I find firearms way too powerful and modern to be implemented in game.

The others have given pretty good arguments about why pistols and rifles aren’t that bad in this setting, especially where magic can mess with what we’d normally consider logical, but there’s one other thing that I wanted to address. You keep picturing modern firearms, the kind that you see out on the street. The guns we have in game are probably from the flintlock era. What that means is that you pour some gunpowder down the shaft, load the bullet, kitten the pistol then aim and fire.

Flintlock pistols and rifles were not known for their accuracy, even at point blank range, and it’s only over centuries of refinement has the aim on them significantly improved. If we were being totally realistic, the recharge on pistols should be way longer than reloading an arrow. But that wouldn’t be fun, and if we’re not worried about having enough ammo, why let other real life concerns get in the way?

Plus, magic. Magic guns, magic bows, possibly even magic melee weapons.

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Posted by: Bast Bow.2958

Bast Bow.2958

Yes. All very good reasons why firearms fit well in game and aren’t more powerful per se than more classical weaponry.

Then only remains my personal preference of the older more ‘classic’ weapons.
I think the more classic weapons need more skill and/or work to get a kill, while the firearms only need to pull a trigger (I’m aware of gunpowder older guns and their routine etc, but still), which makes them firearms… down on my list I suppose.

(edited by Bast Bow.2958)

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Posted by: Kal Spiro.9745

Kal Spiro.9745

When I first started playing GW2 the thing I wanted was to make the main character from Last of the Mohicans. He was a medium armor, mostly, guy with melee axes and rifles, who would act as a skirmisher. This was ripe for the Ranger. Unfortunately that never came to pass, but I have continued to hope for it one day.

Tarnished Coast Kal Spiro – Ranger (80), LB/S-D, Eagle/Wolf, Signet, M/S/WS #SABorRiot
|Daredevil|Ranger|Guardian|Scrapper|Necromancer|Berserker|Dragonhunter|Mesmer|Elementalist
|Deadeye|Warrior|Herald|Daredevil|Reaper|Spellbreaker

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Posted by: Bndgg.7065

Bndgg.7065

Bring up enchanted arrows and gw1, it would be nice to see preparation skills like kindle arrows and armor penetration come a thing in gw2. I don’t know how well it could be implemented since combat is different now, but shooting explosive arrows that damage enemies around your target would be cool to see.

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Posted by: Djahlat.9610

Djahlat.9610

As far as the whole ‘enchanting bullets’ things goes, think of glasses of water, I suppose.

The smaller the glass, the less water you can put into it before it overflows and gets everywhere (which, with magic, would be more dangerous than just getting everything wet). So with a bullet, you have something small, about the size of your thumb, or around there. An arrow on the other hand is about the length of your forearm, and has proportionally higher mass. The more mass it has, the more ‘water’ (magic) you can pour in safely. The more you can put magic into an item, the more you can enchant it, and the more you can enchant it, the more deadly it is.

In this way, arrows are generally superior to bullets because they can be enchanted much more than a bullet can. Conversely, however, the technology behind a bullet allows it to shoot harder in a single go, as it propels the projectile at much greater speeds. Additionally, bows can’t allow for much mechanical customization, as changes to the structure of the bow’s limbs either throw off its balance, weigh it down, or otherwise adversely affect its use; guns don’t suffer from that, which is why engineers can attach things like net launchers, flamethrowers, and alternate fire modes to guns.

In Tyria, neither one is more powerful than the other. the gun can’t be nearly as well enchanted as the bow, but it’s capable of having much more versatility of design.

But yeah, we’re all entitled to our opinions. I just personally despise the idea of medieval stasis, so I’m personally quite glad that the charr brought in technology to the game world.

Your analogy doesn’t hold much sense in Tyria.
Glint’s entire Lair was hidden in a single grain of sand, and I’m pretty sure it held considerabl amounts of magic. In no way is the size of an object representative of its magical retaining abilities

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Posted by: Harnel.6810

Harnel.6810

Glint’s lair doesn’t really count; it’s easily explained as a pocket dimension with the opening linked to a grain of sand, rather than inside it. A lot less problematic than shoving a large amount of rooms inside a tiny crystal.

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Posted by: Ghotistyx.6942

Ghotistyx.6942

A lot of stuff that’s been mentioned isn’t canon, which makes it moot.

Fishsticks

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Posted by: CETheLucid.3964

CETheLucid.3964

Part of me wants to say yes to a rifle or off-hand pistol elite spec, but lorewise it just doesn’t fit well.

Do they give us perma-stow in exchange? Maybe it’s high damage, terrible utility? Cuts us off from most of our nature-theme utility?

There would be a ton of work involved there and somehow I don’t think the final product would fit with the aesthetic of our class. It’d be something else entirely.

By comparison, druid spec with staff was very well done and it fit ranger like a glove. But I dunno.

Before druid was fleshed out I thought staff on ranger was a dumb idea, but low and behold it’s a favorite weapon of mine and one of my favorite elite specs.

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Posted by: Harnel.6810

Harnel.6810

Well CETheLucid, Rangers don’t even necessarily have a bond with nature. Druids do, certainly, but rangers themselves are just skirmishers that know how to tame and train animals and can use some life magic. Fluff it however you want, but that’s the bare bones of it.

So, if we go to firearms, well, it’d be moving towards an ideal we already have, which is actually what a lot of elite specs do (notably berserker and daredevil). Druid moved us more towards nature magic and wilderness survival, turning us into mages that channel the power of the heavens with control of plants, but we can take that several other ways. If we’re expanding on an already existing concept, then three pop to mind; Skirmishing, Beast Mastery, and Marksmanship

A pistol would lend itself to skirmishing. Hit someone on the head and then duck away and take quick shots that disrupt or debilitate the target while your pet hampers them. Ideal for a condition setup, so if you only get mainhand pistol your off hand could be a torch or dagger.

Marksmanship, on the other hand, lends itself to high damage hits to weak points; ie, a sniper rifle. burst damage with downtime in between shots would be the essence of this, as well as repositioning for a better shot – which, I’ll note, also serves well in the skirmishing role very well. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, Hunters have a long history of utilizing hunting animals – dogs, primarily – to keep a target in place while they line up a shot; sounds familiar, doesn’t this? We do that a lot already, but the longbow isn’t a single-shot burst setup. It’s basically an assault rifle, which makes very little sense to me.

As far as Beast Mastery goes, there’s actually precedence in the world’s lore for characters that are high tech but use war animals; those people are the charr. back in GW1, the Blood Legion Homelands had something of a large number of siege devourers in their lands, and given those are effectively living, mobile battering rams, somehow I doubt that they’ve fallen out of use. Meanwhile, the charr are a pragmatic lot; somehow I doubt they’ll ignore the fact that guns take a lot less training to use properly than a longbow. there’s a saying; if you want to train a longbowman, start with the grandfather. A gun, by contrast, can be picked up in a matter of weeks; days, if you’re willing to skimp on the finer points.

If we do get an elite spec that deals with guns, I don’t expect us to lose the companion, If anything, I expect it to get stronger because of the nature of siege engine animals in the world and how they’re closely related to the sort of people that use guns. If you want to know how that’d work mechanically, I can give you a few thoughts, but that’d be going way off on a tangent and I’d rather address it in PMs than talk about it in a thread that isn’t about pets.

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Posted by: CETheLucid.3964

CETheLucid.3964

Well CETheLucid, Rangers don’t even necessarily have a bond with nature. Druids do, certainly, but rangers themselves are just skirmishers that know how to tame and train animals and can use some life magic. Fluff it however you want, but that’s the bare bones of it.

Rangers rely on a keen eye, a steady hand, and the power of nature itself. Unparalleled archers, rangers are capable of bringing down foes from a distance with their bows. With traps, nature spirits, and a stable of loyal pets at their command, rangers can adapt to any situation.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/ranger/

No fluff. That’s just what it is. The bare bones of it.

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Posted by: Harnel.6810

Harnel.6810

Alright, so, how does that negate anything that I’ve said?

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Posted by: CETheLucid.3964

CETheLucid.3964

Alright, so, how does that negate anything that I’ve said?

Well CETheLucid, Rangers don’t even necessarily have a bond with nature. Druids do, certainly, but rangers themselves are just skirmishers that know how to tame and train animals and can use some life magic.

Fluff it however you want, but that’s the bare bones of it.

Rangers rely on a keen eye, a steady hand, and the power of nature itself. Unparalleled archers, rangers are capable of bringing down foes from a distance with their bows. With traps, nature spirits, and a stable of loyal pets at their command, rangers can adapt to any situation.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/ranger/

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Posted by: Harnel.6810

Harnel.6810

And I said:

So, if we go to firearms, well, it’d be moving towards an ideal we already have, which is actually what a lot of elite specs do (notably berserker and daredevil).

and then went on to desribe how firearms would still fit in with the ranger’s concepts of skirmishing, marksmanship, and beast mastery. Does it move away from the nature magic? Yes. But druid already moves away from marksmanship and skirmishing, so what’s the issue here? Or are you going to continue being facetious rather than actually debating this?

Oh, and for the record, Nature magic does not necessitate a bond with nature. unless you want to tell me that warriors and thieves have bonds with the essence of strength and shadow.

(edited by Harnel.6810)

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Posted by: TheFantasticGuy.7206

TheFantasticGuy.7206

We do have a speargun, so a rifle would be the next step.

And that reason, right there, is why it’s completely in the realm of possibility for the Ranger to get a rifle or pistol with the next expac e-spec.

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Posted by: Djahlat.9610

Djahlat.9610

Harnel you’re trying too hard to make a square fit into a triangle. Rangers are Nature mages. You could argue they weren’t in GW1’s time, but there is no denying it in GW2. Now don’t get Druids mixed with Nature mages, those are two entirely different things.
Anyways, think what you will, I’m still adamantly opposed to firearms for any Ranger elite spec. It’s a ranged projectile-based weapon that offers little to no AoE potential, which we already have 3 of (Longbow, Shortbow, and Mainhand Axe)

I think we’re in more dire need of either a melee condi weapon, or some AoE weapon.
2h hammer could fit for both, and it would be reminiscent of that Bunny Thumper build in gw1

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Posted by: Gaara.2798

Gaara.2798

While I’m not opposed to firearms, I do agree with Djahlat’s post of needing an AoE and/or condi weapon (melee or not). You could argue sword or dagger (or ax because I do play that as melee to get all the axe #2-splitblade on 1 target) are melee condi, but you won’t maintain a significant condi tick with those two.
Ax+torch is fun and it works, but having SB as a swap isn’t fantastic. I mostly only use it for SB #5 x2 (with quickdraw) to break a bar.

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Posted by: Ghotistyx.6942

Ghotistyx.6942

Rangers are Nature mages.

[citation needed]

It’s a ranged projectile-based weapon that offers little to no AoE potential, which we already have 3 of (Longbow, Shortbow, and Mainhand Axe)

That’s short sighted of you. Who’s to say a Rifle couldn’t be a conal Shotgun with <600u range? Such a weapon would be the low end of midrange to melee and aoe. Add in a bayonet charge styled skill and you’ve got a lot to work around. Even Pistols could be designed in such a way that they’re aoe focused. You don’t even have to buck normal conventions like Mesmer GS or Rev Hammer do, sufficient concepts exist in life, ripe for the inspiration.

Fishsticks

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Posted by: Djahlat.9610

Djahlat.9610

Rangers are Nature mages.

[citation needed]

Really?
Elementalists are Pyromancers, Hydromancers, Geomancers, Aeromancers, and Arcane Mages, in the same way that Rangers are Skirmishers, Wilderness Survivalists, Beastmasters, Marskmen, and Nature Mages. They use nature magic, well that makes them Mages of Nature. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nature_Magic

It’s a ranged projectile-based weapon that offers little to no AoE potential, which we already have 3 of (Longbow, Shortbow, and Mainhand Axe)

That’s short sighted of you. Who’s to say a Rifle couldn’t be a conal Shotgun with <600u range? Such a weapon would be the low end of midrange to melee and aoe. Add in a bayonet charge styled skill and you’ve got a lot to work around. Even Pistols could be designed in such a way that they’re aoe focused. You don’t even have to buck normal conventions like Mesmer GS or Rev Hammer do, sufficient concepts exist in life, ripe for the inspiration.

Conal shotguns are still based on Projectiles. Besides, I’m talking about the kind of AoE that would be competitive with Elementalists staff, so we’re not totally useless gunk in WvW squads.
Good luck with coming up with those skills on firearms. Why even use firearms if you’re not going to be shooting Projectiles with it? That’s the whole point of black powder and guns.
However, all of out current Ranged weapons do little damage but very fast, so we often die to Retaliation alone (in WvW). Having a slow hard-hitting weapon wouldn’t hurt for a change. That’s basically the only pro-rifle argument I could come up with that makes sense. But then again, I wouldn’t sacrifice the current Ranger aesthetic and vibe for black powder

You guys are so obsessed with firearms and permanent pet stowing, why don’t you just roll a warrior or thief and call it a day

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Posted by: Harnel.6810

Harnel.6810

Conal shotguns are still based on Projectiles. Besides, I’m talking about the kind of AoE that would be competitive with Elementalists staff, so we’re not totally useless gunk in WvW squads.

Actually, cones in this game are AoEs, which aren’t considered projectiles. The best example of this is Blunderbuss, the engineer #3 rifle skill. I’ll grant you that it wouldn’t keep up with ele AoE, but that’s a pretty kitten high bar to set.

Good luck with coming up with those skills on firearms. Why even use firearms if you’re not going to be shooting Projectiles with it? That’s the whole point of black powder and guns.
However, all of out current Ranged weapons do little damage but very fast, so we often die to Retaliation alone (in WvW). Having a slow hard-hitting weapon wouldn’t hurt for a change. That’s basically the only pro-rifle argument I could come up with that makes sense. But then again, I wouldn’t sacrifice the current Ranger aesthetic and vibe for black powder

This IS why I’ve been saying a sniper rifle setup works best. The alternative would be getting pistol and having it as a condition weapon. Additionally, the ranger “Vibe” means a lot of things to a lot of people, so you’ll want to clarify.

You guys are so obsessed with firearms and permanent pet stowing, why don’t you just roll a warrior or thief and call it a day

Now that’s just rude and ignorant on several levels, especially after I spoke of how it does work with the pet and could theoretically even make a pet stronger. Telling someone to go “play another class” is just being a jerk, so take it elsewhere if you’re gonna do that.

(edited by Harnel.6810)

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Posted by: Ghotistyx.6942

Ghotistyx.6942

Really?
Elementalists are Pyromancers, Hydromancers, Geomancers, Aeromancers, and Arcane Mages, in the same way that Rangers are Skirmishers, Wilderness Survivalists, Beastmasters, Marskmen, and Nature Mages. They use nature magic, well that makes them Mages of Nature. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nature_Magic

Nah, you got it backwards.

All users of Nature Magic are Rangers, but not all Rangers use Nature Magic. Ranger is the broader term, “Nature Mage” the more specific.

Actually, cones in this game are AoEs, which aren’t considered projectiles. The best example of this is Blunderbuss, the engineer #3 rifle skill. I’ll grant you that it wouldn’t keep up with ele AoE, but that’s a pretty kitten high bar to set.

Blunderbuss is always the skill that comes to mind when I think of Shotgun Rifle. Other cones in the game: Wave of Wrath, Flame Jet, Shattering Blow. All are skills that could be useful in designing a cone-based weapon.

And for curiosity, what do you consider able to keep up with Ele Staff?

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Posted by: Harnel.6810

Harnel.6810

And for curiosity, what do you consider able to keep up with Ele Staff?

I’ll be frank; I don’t know. Ele staff’s AoEs are strong, long lasting, multi-hit madness. I know that Dragon Hunter’s traps keep up with Ele’s AoEs (that much is clear from pvp at least -_-) but a specific weapon – particularly one that admittedly has something of a dearth of vesatility, unlike magical implements – such as rifles can’t really compete with that on a reasonable level.

I’m not sure how you’d make a shotgun comparable.

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Posted by: Ghotistyx.6942

Ghotistyx.6942

thoughts

the question was supposed to be directed elsewhere, so that’s my fault for it not being clear. However, you strengthened an important point. Ele Staff is at the top of the leaderboards in terms of aoe. The average weapon won’t compete with Ele Staff.

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Posted by: Djahlat.9610

Djahlat.9610

Really?
Elementalists are Pyromancers, Hydromancers, Geomancers, Aeromancers, and Arcane Mages, in the same way that Rangers are Skirmishers, Wilderness Survivalists, Beastmasters, Marskmen, and Nature Mages. They use nature magic, well that makes them Mages of Nature. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nature_Magic

Nah, you got it backwards.

All users of Nature Magic are Rangers, but not all Rangers use Nature Magic. Ranger is the broader term, “Nature Mage” the more specific.

Ok, but your point is not really a counter-argument to mine, if anything you’re agreeing with me. Rangers are tied to Nature Magic, there’s no way around it, and firearms have no place in their kitten nal of weapons.

Actually, cones in this game are AoEs, which aren’t considered projectiles. The best example of this is Blunderbuss, the engineer #3 rifle skill. I’ll grant you that it wouldn’t keep up with ele AoE, but that’s a pretty kitten high bar to set.

Blunderbuss is always the skill that comes to mind when I think of Shotgun Rifle. Other cones in the game: Wave of Wrath, Flame Jet, Shattering Blow. All are skills that could be useful in designing a cone-based weapon.

And for curiosity, what do you consider able to keep up with Ele Staff?

Well, I did have a few ideas, so I’ll give a sample of an elite spec for ranger: The Scale
Basically using Gravity as a force of nature and harnessing it. Inspired by Chronomancers’ Well of Gravity.
The weapon would be a 2H hammer.
#1: Slam the ground with increased strength, sending a small shockwave in a cone in front of player, a bit like Guardian Staff #1
#2: Revert the gravitational field of a line in front of you which lifts debris off the floor. Applies Blindness and Bleed. (Same modalities as Inspiring Reinforcement for Revenants)
#3: Throw your hammer on your foe. When it lands, your foe becomes the center of a gravitational field which Immobilizes them for 5 seconds, and pulls foes (4) towards them. Causes bleed and confusion on affected foes.
#4: Smash enemies in the area. The More enemies are affected, the more damage and conditions are applied to each of them. AoE: Radius 270, Range 1,000 (Animation of a bunny jumping from caster to the Area, becomes progressively bigger while jumping)
#5: Temporarily increase the mass of foes in an area, which cripples them, or knock them down if they already are crippled. Applies Torment. AoE: Radius 300, Range 1,000, Lasts 7 seconds, Applies 1s Torment every second. Max Targets: 5

Utilities would be Manipulations.
Heal: Gravity’s Blessing: Heal yourself while becoming the center of a negative gravitational field, which reflects projectiles
1: Body Slam: Steal 4 boons from selected foe and knock them down for 1 second.
2: Gravity Stampede: Place a gravitational field in desired area which attracts you to it at high speed, launching enemies along the way. End effect: Stuns you for 1 second
3: Undeniable Attraction: Pulls foe your way while transferring 3 of your Conditions on them.
4: Substitution: You and your pet instantly switch position. Teleport range: 1200. Breaks Stun.
Elite: Hare’s Thump: Slam the ground 3 times with your leg. 1st thump: Applies Bleed and cripple to foes. 2nd thump: applies Confusion and Torment to your foes. 3rd thump: Knock down foes and Finish one that is downed

Unique Mechanic i still didn’t think about that

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Posted by: Harnel.6810

Harnel.6810

Djahlat, this sounds less like a ranger overall and more like a mesmer. Also:

Ok, but your point is not really a counter-argument to mine, if anything you’re agreeing with me. Rangers are tied to Nature Magic, there’s no way around it, and firearms have no place in their kitten nal of weapons.

Bull. I explained how it does work, on several levels, both pistol and rifle. And Nature magic in no way prevents someone from using their weapon of choice, even if they did have some kind of bond with it (Which they don’t necessarily have).

(edited by Harnel.6810)

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Posted by: Djahlat.9610

Djahlat.9610

Djahlat, this sounds less like a ranger overall and more like a mesmer. Also:

Ok, but your point is not really a counter-argument to mine, if anything you’re agreeing with me. Rangers are tied to Nature Magic, there’s no way around it, and firearms have no place in their kitten nal of weapons.

Bull. I explained how it does work, on several levels, both pistol and rifle. And Nature magic in no way prevents someone from using their weapon of choice, even if they did have some kind of bond with it (Which they don’t necessarily have).

Lol nope it doesn’t work, no matter which way I look at it. Makes as much sense as giving a shield to Thieves or a focus to Warriors.
The example I gave was drafted in like 20 minutes, it’s meant to use one of the biggest forces of Nature: Gravity. It’s like an elongation of what Rangers can already do, just like Druid and their affiliation with the Celestial bodies and astral force.

The burden of demonstration has fallen on you. Now it’s your turn to give me an example of how a firearm would be added to an Elite spec for Ranger that: A) Makes sense aesthetically, B) Compensates for one of the things we lack in combat.
The mid-range and long-range projectile-based weapons are already there, but whatever.
I probably won’t answer after that, it’s pointless to argue against something that is obviously not going to break through

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Posted by: Harnel.6810

Harnel.6810

It’s funny you mention the idea of granting shield to thief; a friend of mine wants that quite badly because he’s enamored with the idea of a swashbuckler, and also likes the idea of a skirmisher, which also fits there.

Second off, not everything has to be about cosmic forces. not everything has to be about magic. that’s limiting if you think that’s the case, and we’ve already had an elite spec that pushes us into using natural forces; it’s time to go the other direction.

But you want examples of how firearms would work for a ranger? Sure, I can do that.

First, the suggestion of a shotgun style weapon. AoE is something that the Ranger consistently lacks in, so the application of a shotgun to the class would be good. probably around 600 range. #1 would be a basic cone AoE, power based. #2 could be a backstep blast, creating a small area around you doing Aoe damage as you jump back. #3 could be a blind. #4 could be a vulnerability applier. #5 would be a 1.5 second stun, which is long enough to pull out whatever other shenanigans you like.

Don’t like the shotgun? Let’s try the sniper rifle idea. It’s actually very easy to make it different from the Longbow; the longbow is essentially an assault rifle in terms of how it plays, while a sniper rifle setup would have you attacking slowly for high damage per shot. The #1 would be powerful, but slow; think like Plague Blast, from the vanilla necromancer’s death shroud. #2 is also pretty easy; Reposition. Make it a dodge skill. #3 would apply weakness to the target. #4 is a ricochet shot that allows it to hit multiple enemies with one attack, similar to how thief had ricochet way back when. #5 is the big interesting skill; The longer you hold it for a charge, the more damage and longer range it has. The Sniper rifle would be used for burst damage, which is in fact something that the ranger lacks. the only burst damage we have at the moment at all is Rapid fire on the longbow (which is arguable in the first place) and Maul, the Greatsword #2 skill.

the pistol, meanwhile, would make for a good close ranger weapon that can swap between melee and ranged. the autoattack would have something like a 900 range. #2 would be a pistol whip; brief stun or other CC, such as daze. #3 would be another repositioning skill; hit your target with immobilize and then jump away.

All three of these work for the ranger without significant overlap with other weapons.

And then we get into utility skills! Two types immediately spring to mind; stances, and Preparations.

Stances in general are self-buffs that last 6-10 seconds with instant activation. They grant such things as damage invulnerability, particular boons, and similar things. For a ranger, why don’t we look at the old stances from GW1 for a moment? Nature’s Blessing, a healing stance that affects you and all allies within a short range, granting you pulsing condition cleanses and heals. Natural Stride, Stance that makes incoming attacks miss and grants Superspeed. Serpent’s Quickness, granting you Alacrity, which would make a good Elite. Tiger’s Fury; Might and Fury generation. Dryder’s Defense; stance that grants you pulsing protection.

How about Preparations? These would work one of two ways; either as a temporary buff to all of the attacks you make, or similar to the way venoms currently work, giving you a set number of hits with which you can make these attacks. I personally find this one more likely for the sniper setup idea, as you’re attacking slowly and want to get the most out of all of the hits you can. Seeking Shots, making your attacks unblockable and cause vulnerability while active. Explosive Shots, making your attacks deal extra damage with a small amount of splash on impact. Choking Gas, which makes your attacks spread a small AoE cloud that dazes every time it ticks, which would make a good elite. Marksman’s Wager, which heals you and grants might every time you hit with it. Disrupting Accuracy; your hits interrupt the target. Kindle Shots; Inflict burning with every hit.

(cont.)

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Posted by: Harnel.6810

Harnel.6810

And then we get the question of what special thing the elite spec does to the pet, right? Easy. The most obvious source for rangers with firearms is the charr, which you’d know if you’d actually read up in the thread, and the charr have a certain thing about their pets; warbeasts of great size and power. Things like siege Devourers, or Drake broodmothers. Mechanically, these special warbeast pets would only be available for use when you’re in this elite spec. Stat wise, they’re about 170% as powerful as a standard pet, but take up both companion slots; the F4 becomes a heal and condition cleanse for the pet, with a Rez if they’ve been downed. Simple. Effective.

I probably won’t answer after that, it’s pointless to argue against something that is obviously not going to break through

No, you don’t get to take that way out. You want a debate? You have it. You want me to share points? I just did. So debate. Prove beyond a shadow of a doubt your point, since you seem so incredibly keen on it. I’m willing to accept being wrong, but you’ve done nothing but tell me I’m stupid and/or stubborn without proving anything. It’s someone who has a weak argument who goes to insults when he could instead be actually presenting ideas.

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Posted by: Ghotistyx.6942

Ghotistyx.6942

These are all opinions so there’s no right or wrong, but it’s a whole lot harder for somebody to defend headcanon than otherwise.

That being said, Harnel and I are definitely on the same wavelengths.

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