Guild Wars 2

I just want to alert the devs to a build option that might lose viability in many game modes.

Making healing spring a trap makes it nearly impossible to provide aggressive support as a ranger.

As a trap, which the ranger has to take time to set, then trigger, I’m afraid healing spring is going to be useless in actual combat that is not PvE. There might be no reason to take anything other than Heal as One or Troll Unguent. This in turn would make the addition of the additional blast finisher less valuable. It could ultimately take away one viable support option, and make using a warhorn questionable.

With healing spring the way it is, a “frontline” ranger with a warhorn can provide a very fast healing burst and minor condi removal to his team, while remaining in the fight. Or, in the case of a duel, the ranger can drop healing spring, blast it, swap weapons and leap for a really nice burst heal. It’s really versatile, but it has to be there when you NEED it, and you need to be in position to make best use of it.

Kind of like how the longbow was made a viable choice partly by nerfing shortbow, I fear that nerfing healing spring might be an attempt to make spirit rangers and shout rangers more appealing support options. Perhaps even druid.

But in fact, this nerf potentially threatens build diversity. Please reconsider the mechanics of making healing spring a trap. Perhaps leave it as a trap, and require that it be triggered, but let it keep the current 1/2s cast time. It’s not unheard of to have skills of the same “type” with different cast times: signet of the wild takes 1s to cast, but every other signet is instantaneous.

I never did understand their stance on limitations having to be imposed on Healing Spring when turning it into a trap. Why, I don’t have to look any farther than the skill of the same name in Guild Wars 1 to rebut this. Healing Spring (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Healing_Spring) was a “trap,” but did not have to be tripped. It benefitted from both the Trapper’s Focus and Trapper’s Speed skills, just like all the offensive traps, but functioned differently. As soon as it was cast, it began healing in an area around it immediately. There was none of this arming time delay or activation nonsense!

Is it really that difficult to categorize this skill as a trap, but leave its functionality as-is?

Did they post the details on how it is going to work now and if so can someone link it?

unlikeyou.8452:

Is it really that difficult to categorize this skill as a trap, but leave its functionality as-is?

I agree with this, not really sure why it has to act as a trap with the whole arming/activating thing. The trait lowering its cooldown doesn’t suddenly make the current iteration of healing spring OP compared to other ranger heal skills and heal skills in general. Neither of the other two healing skills received any functionality change, just a skill category.

If the cool down starts after arming it (like all other traps), with proper placement and some thinking, you’ll likely get to play it at least twice back to back in combat.

You’ll be able to set up a “oh kitten” spot for yourself or allies to run to when health is getting low.

It won’t work exactly like it does now/instantly but it’ll be a fantastic support heal, better than it is now (maybe one of the best in the game) and still a strong choice for solo play.

You’ll have to learn how to play with this heal again. It shouldn’t be too hard.

But if you truly want to play with your face, just use it when your health is kinda low and it should pop on top of you, giving you the heal and the water field.

Think Ether Renewal, but one giant pulse. Unlike GW1 in GW2 traps aren’t easily interrupted without a ‘trait’.

More savvy players will set it up properly, fight, trigger it when necessary, and since it was recharging before hand, have it handy for a second go.

I agree with CETheLucid. HS is “weird” now, but I think it is kind of a buff. It’s definitely going to take some time getting used to, but it’s not that different from how TU works. You just need some minor planning.

It’s changed. Get over it and embrace the change. If the skill is truly unusable they will change it again.

What has me worried is the activation health percentage. For fights like the first champion in SE3 you want to put down HS as soon as the first bleed stacks start coming, which is usually when everyone in the party is still on high health. That way all the following bleeds in the next 10 seconds pretty much get evaporated as they come. In that particular example you would first have to bleed out to whatever the activation percentage is to get the condi cleanse going. Basically group condi cleanse on demand is a great thing and something I’m not hesitant to use HS for even if I don’t need the heal. Having that gated by me first being on X% hp before it triggers is not very fun.

there isnt a activation % as from what i’ve read / heard or seen on anywhere.

It’ll most likely activate when your not at full hp , since we mostly use it for the field and regen more than anything else to recover.

so it’ll pretty much trigger right away after the arming time, unless you place it to the side.

I’m not really seeing the concerns in the OP reflected in the information provided us about healing spring. The activation % would appear, for now, to be anything below 100%. I don’t think they would gate it to lower as it would impose a very arbitrary inconvenience on the users.

I don’t really think half a second of cast time will alter things too much, although you may have to be a bit more preemptive on using the heal.

If nothing else, it does synergize perfectly with trapper runes. It’s guaranteed stealth since you can’t hit a foe with them, so you can stand in your water field and blast it with the warhorn completely from stealth.

It also provides a new mechanism in WvW where rangers can set up healing springs prior to a zerg engagement, and the zerg can fall back to the healing springs to regroup and trigger water fields for healing and condition clearing. This allows eles to save their water fields for other times, such as during the fights or when the zerg doesn’t have time to prepare the healing springs beforehand.

Even in duels, the ranger can set up the healing spring at the start of the fight, and go back to it for an uninterruptable use of their healing skill, all the while having it recharge during the fight to pop another one soon after.

Of course, this assumes that traps will continue to last on the ground for an hour or whatever after they’re placed, which I believe they intend to leave the same.

I also do not think 0.5s will affect HS all that much tbh. As well as an arm time having minor impact, you can now trait for 60% longer boon duration and -20% recharge. When you get to a boss, drop it immediately to start the CD and cleanse any condi once someone starts taking damage. You will then have 116% uptime on regen from it and 80% uptime on a water field.

Compare that to 33% water field up time and 60% uptime on Regen for the current HS. 0.5s arming time is a tiny price to pay for that.

0.5s arming time is nothing. Although, it was unnecessary to add it in the 1st place imo.

Well if the activation percentage really is anything under 100%, then I see no problem either, I was under the (obviously wrong) impression it was something like 75% or so.

Even if it is 75%, it would not be terrible, at least you couldn’t waste the heal then.

I’m really hoping that it’s a 2 part skill. Click once to drop the trap, click again to activate it.

Puck.9612:

I’m really hoping that it’s a 2 part skill. Click once to drop the trap, click again to activate it.

That’s not how a trap works. It will probably activate once an ally(maybe even yourself or pet) pass through it.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Even if it is 75%, it would not be terrible, at least you couldn’t waste the heal then.

Any lower percentage activation was putting off the group condi cleanse even further, which was the whole reason I thought this change is bad. I’m just too used to using HB as an instant AoE condi clear, to suddenly lose that utility. But if the activation is only really slowed down by the arming time, then I’m not losing anything and gaining free cooldown reduction/longer regen.

Sagat.3285:

Puck.9612:

I’m really hoping that it’s a 2 part skill. Click once to drop the trap, click again to activate it.

That’s not how a trap works. It will probably activate once an ally(maybe even yourself or pet) pass through it.

There aren’t any friendly traps in the game at the moment, you can’t say that’s not how traps work.

Puck.9612:

Sagat.3285:

Puck.9612:

I’m really hoping that it’s a 2 part skill. Click once to drop the trap, click again to activate it.

That’s not how a trap works. It will probably activate once an ally(maybe even yourself or pet) pass through it.

There aren’t any friendly traps in the game at the moment, you can’t say that’s not how traps work.

Yeah my bad for that a foe will most likely trigger it similar to DH’s heal trap.

Sagat.3285:

Puck.9612:

Sagat.3285:

Puck.9612:

I’m really hoping that it’s a 2 part skill. Click once to drop the trap, click again to activate it.

That’s not how a trap works. It will probably activate once an ally(maybe even yourself or pet) pass through it.

There aren’t any friendly traps in the game at the moment, you can’t say that’s not how traps work.

Yeah my bad for that a foe will most likely trigger it similar to DH’s heal trap.

Wouldn’t surprise me one bit since these ”balance” changes seem to all be flavor over functionality.

1/2 second cast time is how the non-trap, pre-“balance” version of HS currently works. The new version will likely take significantly longer to cast, and will likely root you in place while casting.

It’s the “arming” step that is the issue, mostly. From the way they described it, this was a process of crouching down and setting the trap. That’s how it worked in GW1, and it’s what it sounded like they were describing for the new traps. It’s why traps were only used in special circumstances in GW1- “cast” times were too long and they left you too vulnerable and rooted in place.

Stopping and crouching down to set a trap for anything longer than the current 1/2 second would be unusable in a fight against other people. Even at 1/2 second, which is highly unlikely, having to stop movement while setting the trap would be a deal breaker if you went into combat with that as your heal skill. This game is way too fast paced for that when you play against other human beings.

Why would it take significantly longer? All traps have a 1/2s cast time.

Elorna.5329:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Even if it is 75%, it would not be terrible, at least you couldn’t waste the heal then.

Any lower percentage activation was putting off the group condi cleanse even further, which was the whole reason I thought this change is bad. I’m just too used to using HB as an instant AoE condi clear, to suddenly lose that utility. But if the activation is only really slowed down by the arming time, then I’m not losing anything and gaining free cooldown reduction/longer regen.

Let’s say it does trigger when you reach 75% health. With standard health pool, that 75% is 11386. So the heal triggers and heals for 4920, bringing you back to full health and removing one condition and giving regen at the same time. The clear and regen pulses over time.

If you place it for an immediate condi clear, you waste the heal, whereas if it triggers at 75%, you clear the condi, heal back to 100% and make the foe waste that damage, it also took longer to trigger, meaning your skill has been on CD longer, making it available sooner to do it again.

That’s the way I’m looking at it anyway.

It’s possible I’m misunderstanding the arming step. I understood it to be the normal 1/2 second to cast, then an additional 1/2 second spent arming it. If that arming phase is just a “timer” after cast, that’s not as big of an issue.

C E J O.1752:

It’s possible I’m misunderstanding the arming step. I understood it to be the normal 1/2 second to cast, then an additional 1/2 second spent arming it. If that arming phase is just a “timer” after cast, that’s not as big of an issue.

Yes, its a 1/2s cast, then there is a 1/2s delay before the skill can “go off”, ie heal you or allies.

The idea for traps is for them to provide an area denial, and i suppose the new HS be one such effect, an area where you have an advantage. I feel as if some interesting plays can be made with it.

Having Hornet’s Sting → Healing Spring → Monarch’s Leap part of my rotation whether it’s small skirmishing, repositioning, or getting out of a tight spot for as long as I can remember, I’m not really looking at it negatively.

Sure, it was the fastest casting (burst) healing skill, on demand condi removal, potentially the most amount of HP healed if you know what you’re doing, group heal/condi which helped make clutch plays when you need it on the money…

but we’ll adapt!

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Elorna.5329:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Even if it is 75%, it would not be terrible, at least you couldn’t waste the heal then.

Any lower percentage activation was putting off the group condi cleanse even further, which was the whole reason I thought this change is bad. I’m just too used to using HB as an instant AoE condi clear, to suddenly lose that utility. But if the activation is only really slowed down by the arming time, then I’m not losing anything and gaining free cooldown reduction/longer regen.

Let’s say it does trigger when you reach 75% health. With standard health pool, that 75% is 11386. So the heal triggers and heals for 4920, bringing you back to full health and removing one condition and giving regen at the same time. The clear and regen pulses over time.

If you place it for an immediate condi clear, you waste the heal, whereas if it triggers at 75%, you clear the condi, heal back to 100% and make the foe waste that damage, it also took longer to trigger, meaning your skill has been on CD longer, making it available sooner to do it again.

That’s the way I’m looking at it anyway.

Yeah I get it, but like I said a few times earlier, I never viewed it as a waste to clear multiple people of burn, cripple or bleed (the most common AoE conds in PvE) even if I got very little or no healing out of it myself. As far as other game modes go, this is a buff no matter what, since things like pop HS, get a combo in it, use it to stand there a few more seconds if you need extra cond removal, or fight around the water field were making 1v1 against most cond based roaming builds in WvW a cakewalk as it is. Builds like cond thieves and engies were completely neutered by a single skill (then again cond thieves get a free stealth off the pet, so that kind of puts the matchup into a standstill). Anyway, adding extra layers to that with more regen/less cooldown just opens up more play options and doesn’t necessarily pigeon hole us into shouts or survival skills.

Elorna.5329:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Elorna.5329:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Even if it is 75%, it would not be terrible, at least you couldn’t waste the heal then.

Any lower percentage activation was putting off the group condi cleanse even further, which was the whole reason I thought this change is bad. I’m just too used to using HB as an instant AoE condi clear, to suddenly lose that utility. But if the activation is only really slowed down by the arming time, then I’m not losing anything and gaining free cooldown reduction/longer regen.

Let’s say it does trigger when you reach 75% health. With standard health pool, that 75% is 11386. So the heal triggers and heals for 4920, bringing you back to full health and removing one condition and giving regen at the same time. The clear and regen pulses over time.

If you place it for an immediate condi clear, you waste the heal, whereas if it triggers at 75%, you clear the condi, heal back to 100% and make the foe waste that damage, it also took longer to trigger, meaning your skill has been on CD longer, making it available sooner to do it again.

That’s the way I’m looking at it anyway.

Yeah I get it, but like I said a few times earlier, I never viewed it as a waste to clear multiple people of burn, cripple or bleed (the most common AoE conds in PvE) even if I got very little or no healing out of it myself. As far as other game modes go, this is a buff no matter what, since things like pop HS, get a combo in it, use it to stand there a few more seconds if you need extra cond removal, or fight around the water field were making 1v1 against most cond based roaming builds in WvW a cakewalk as it is. Builds like cond thieves and engies were completely neutered by a single skill (then again cond thieves get a free stealth off the pet, so that kind of puts the matchup into a standstill). Anyway, adding extra layers to that with more regen/less cooldown just opens up more play options and doesn’t necessarily pigeon hole us into shouts or survival skills.

If group condi cleanse is all you’re after with the heal being largely irrelevant, especially on something predictable like a dungeon boss, you might consider Signet of Renewal or Spirit of Nature.

Signet of Renewal kills all condis in both yours and your pets range (600, sending them all to your faithful companion) and doubles as a stun break.

With Brutish Seals, you’ll get 3 stacks of might for you and your pet that’ll keep for a bit (15s, 6 stacks for the pet with Fortifying Bonds) and lower the CD of this and other sigs (such as Stone).

It’s passive also kills a condition on both you and your pet every 10s.

Assuming you’re not using your elite for much, Spirit of Nature will give everyone some decent passive regen that stacks with other sources (ele’s mist).

When triggered, Spirit of Nature’s Renewal will also cleanse 5 condis on 5 people in the spirit’s range and revive anyone downed (5 now, up from 3 with a larger radius, includes yourself with good timing), on a 30s CD.

Healing Spring will probably still be a great choice though. You’ll just have to think about it a little more, assuming there’s a break point when the trap triggers.

I do use elite spirit and HS together most of the time, since I find little value in RaO – just the stability really, it will be better post patch cause of the lack of fortifying bond. But the spirit alone is not a replacement for HS, specially not after the update if the general description for all spirits applies to the elite as well. It would mean it gets killed as soon as you use it once for a condi cleanse, removing the nice regen effect which is the main reason for using it – makes it easier to keep scholar rune damage bonus and lowers the need for party members to use their heals thereby increasing damage slightly. Signet of renewal tho is just a waste of a utility slot in PvE – quickening zephyr, frost spirit and signet of the wild are too good.

Either way there’s nothing much that I’m disagreeing with as far as the old vs new HS is concerned any more, since previous posters have convinced me it won’t suffer from some arbitrarily hard to accomplish prerequisite condition for activation.

Elorna.5329:

It would mean it gets killed as soon as you use it once for a condi cleanse, removing the nice regen effect which is the main reason for using it – makes it easier to keep scholar rune damage bonus and lowers the need for party members to use their heals thereby increasing damage slightly.

It’s still worth using for the condi cleanse. Post-patch you can put it back up every 30 seconds. For comparison, it’s cooldown right now is 3mins.

It’s a significant buff to Spirit of Nature.

Yeah, but that’s just another reason to keep it up as much as possible for its passive, and rely on HS for the actual condi cleanse. Free healing signet for the entire group is a great bonus.

Elorna.5329:

Yeah, but that’s just another reason to keep it up as much as possible for its passive, and rely on HS for the actual condi cleanse. Free healing signet for the entire group is a great bonus.

How is that more of a reason to play it for it’s passive?

I don’t get what you’re trying to say at this point. You can already play Spirit of Nature like that with 1m up time and a CD of 3m.

You can play it like that post-patch with a 1m up time and a CD of 30s. At that CD, it’s actually something of a waste not to use the condi cleanse (if you need it) at around 30s.

I mean unless you have a healing power based build and your team is relying heavily on your spirit’s sustain… for SE3… for whatever reason…

Then yeah, sure. Keep that spirit up for as long as possible!

If it absolutely has to be Healing Spring for your condi cleanse needs, by all means. It’s your dungeon run/scenario.

I was just throwing out some friendly suggestions for party wide condition cleanse.

I thought I mentioned it in my earlier posts, but looks like I just kind of glossed over the fact without focusing on it since it’s the main reason why I prefer HS over all the other options – the continuous nature of its removal coincides well with the often continuous reapplication of burns/poisons/bleeds/cripples that is so often in PvE encounters that have conditions. Having a party wide healing signet that can remove a condition once every half a minute, is just a nice extra bonus. And no, I don’t have a heal power build.

Elorna.5329:

I thought I mentioned it in my earlier posts, but looks like I just kind of glossed over the fact without focusing on it since it’s the main reason why I prefer HS over all the other options – the continuous nature of its removal coincides well with the often continuous reapplication of burns/poisons/bleeds/cripples that is so often in PvE encounters that have conditions. Having a party wide healing signet that can remove a condition once every half a minute, is just a nice extra bonus. And no, I don’t have a heal power build.

I get you now. I don’t believe Healing Spring will change so much that you can’t do that anymore.

Even if there is a small breakpoint before it pops in general it’s going to be the same heal it’s always been, a few perks and kinks withstanding.

You’ll be fine.

CETheLucid.3964:

When triggered, Spirit of Nature’s Renewal will also cleanse 5 condis on 5 people in the spirit’s range and revive anyone downed (5 now, up from 3 with a larger radius, includes yourself with good timing), on a 30s CD.

Do you guys really think they will make the CD on Spirit of Nature 30s? That would be a game changer tbh and it would be our best elite skill then.

I know the patch notes stated all Ranger spirits will have a 30s CD, but doubt they were referring to the Elite Spirit, is there any other source?

Having a 1/2 second cast was fine, but adding a 1/2 second before it triggers is awful for wvw encounters, where that extra half second whilst moving (running away?) will mean I either have to stop moving (and die) or not get the benefit (and die). Won’t matter id duels and pve because in a duel you can blast through it and in pve you’re usually not moving anyway.

As far as individual spirits go, they didn’t mention the elite and stone spirit specifically, but since stone is just another utility it will probably work the same as others, and elite would be screwed over by the other change if they also don’t lower the cooldown. So maybe not 30 like the rest, but if they keep the “death on activation” part for it, some lower cooldown is to be expected. Or they just keep it the same as it is now, and nothing changes really, that’s also ok.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

CETheLucid.3964:

When triggered, Spirit of Nature’s Renewal will also cleanse 5 condis on 5 people in the spirit’s range and revive anyone downed (5 now, up from 3 with a larger radius, includes yourself with good timing), on a 30s CD.

Do you guys really think they will make the CD on Spirit of Nature 30s? That would be a game changer tbh and it would be our best elite skill then.

I know the patch notes stated all Ranger spirits will have a 30s CD, but doubt they were referring to the Elite Spirit, is there any other source?

Do you really think so?

The up time on Spirit of Nature hasn’t changed from what it is now. If you played it for the passive regen for example, nothing changes from now to post-patch.

Spirit of Nature still has a 1.5s cast time and it can be destroyed preemptively by your enemy, wasting your elite play altogether.

At 30secs per cast VS 3mins CD and the potential utility it can provide it’s worth the elite slot now, I’ll give it that.

It’s definitely one of the more impressive QoL buffs, but it’s not exactly game changing stuff. It’s still a hard sell VS the new traited RaO/Strength of The Pack or Entangle.

Ranger elites in general got more attractive.

Baldrick.8967:

Having a 1/2 second cast was fine, but adding a 1/2 second before it triggers is awful for wvw encounters, where that extra half second whilst moving (running away?) will mean I either have to stop moving (and die) or not get the benefit (and die). Won’t matter id duels and pve because in a duel you can blast through it and in pve you’re usually not moving anyway.

My question that I’ve asked elsewhere…why do ranger traps now get a 1/2 second arming timer but thief (& future guard) traps don’t get the same treatment?

Guard traps do have an arming time, according to the DH Livestream.

There was no direct mention of it in the thief notes, but considering traps from two other professions are getting it, it’s fairly probable thief traps are 1/2 s arming as well.

as i understand it
activate trap (0.5s), wait 0,5s, effect
so yes it sucks that our only “fast” heal is gone and all 3 used heals have 1s cast time, but it will never be useless. HS is in team support and utility still strong, even stronger because the regen will last longer with traits. What i will miss is the aoe vigor and healing spring. i wish they could add it in a trait, but hey? maybe the druid will get it, it would fit

Just tested out Healing Spring with the update. It’s still fantastic and the arming is barely noticable!

My lovely healing spring is not nerfed. Thanks ANET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I LOVE YOU!!!!

It’s a little nerfed, the radius is super small now.

OMG , they made Healing Spring a trap, but they forgot to make Rune of Trapper work with it properly. If it is a trap it must give 3 sec of Stealth as any other trap skill !

Fluffball.8307:

It’s a little nerfed, the radius is super small now.

Seriously?

Also Troll Unguent is Survival skill now, so with Wilderness Knowledge trait it’s cd time should be reduced down for 20% from 20 sec to 16 sec, and it is also doesnt work. WTF

Radagast.6271:

Also Troll Unguent is Survival skill now, so with Wilderness Knowledge trait it’s cd time should be reduced down for 20% from 20 sec to 16 sec, and it is also doesnt work. WTF

TU is a 25s CD so it would reduce to 20s, mate.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Fluffball.8307:

It’s a little nerfed, the radius is super small now.

Seriously?

Ya, it’s a trap now so the radius is small unless traited. On a semi-related note, I’ve already gotten annoyed by the “We Heal as One!” scream every 16 seconds.