Guild Wars 2

Greetings people.

I got myself to look at numbers once again and see what’s been changed and what can be done about it. To begin with – I’ll be taking these number charts as a help https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tuDz1x50hIhREdfWni7Eim9MbG8cDRkIuuIsioXdruc/edit#gid=0
(thank you sebrent)

Note- Quickening Zephyr, Signet of the Wild, Spotter, Frost Spirit or any other boosts are not included here – these buffs are available to both current and upcoming system and have no effect on the results. Traits explained at the end
For PvE – the standard rotation will now actually include longbow as a set part of the rotation. Yep, the numbers go up if you do. Even in melee range.

We can easily assume that instead of auto-attacks we will be using rotations (10 sec long). These will consist of 2 sets of Path of Scars and 2 Rapid Fire abilities instead of one.

Today’s 10 sec. damage sequence goes like this:
Barrage > Rapid Fire >
// Path of Scars > Pure AA footage for 15 seconds // repeat

For clarifying I’ll write the cast times.
Barrage: 2,25 (760 DPS) 30 (10) sec CD
Rapid Fire: 2,5 (1575 DPS) 10 sec (3,3) CD
Path of Scars: 0,5 (2400 DPS) 15 sec (5) CD

Today’s DPS starts at
4,75 sec Bow precast resulting in 9000 damage initial damage >
> 0,5 sec Path of Scars for 1200 damage and a pure AA fest for 1055 DPS.

That’s a total of 10200 dmg in ~6 seconds (seconds rounded up from 5,25 for human factor) which equals 1700 dps
And from this point the DPS drops to 1055.

New rotation will consist of the very same opener with the very same results which is 1700 dps for 6 seconds and then it drops to:
Sword AA chain with another Path of Scars – which is sacrificing 1 attack of the chain (~630) for 1200 damage. The DPS will be slightly higher but with noticeable spike.
The number of DPS in Sword Setup is 1169.

Then we swap to Longbow rotation that will include 2 Rapid Fire streams and the rest goes to melee shots:
8000 damage per 5 seconds = 1600 dps, the rest is auto shots for 735 DPS. This rotation results in overall 1167 DPS with 2 noticeable spikes and 20 vulnerability (this wasn’t available before – this is a huge buff). Note that we also get 50% fury uptime (that is irrelevant since we get it 100% of the PvE content in groups anyways – still a buff to solo)

Here comes the rage part we had not-so-long ago.
The traits and the damage modifiers we lost.

Well, currently we are in possession of Steady Focus (10), Spotter (7 crit), Predator’s Onslaught (10) from Marksmanship
Hunter Tactics (10) from Skirmishing
And that’s all folks. This is all we currently have.

Now for the upcoming builds we get:
Steady Focus (10), Predator’s Onslaught (10; note that pet damage is 10, up from 5) from Marksmanship
Spotter (7), Hunter Tactics (10 crit) from skirmishing
Bountiful Hunter (1 per boon, 6 is the usual amount of boons active) from Wilderness Survival.

So, while we all kept weeping over our precious 25% lost modifiers … Do you have any idea how overpowered would that become once you know what the new Ranger PvE meta looks like? Don’t forget you’ll get Protective Ward for better survivability as well.
And you can sacrifice the Bountiful Hunter for Beast Mastery for Quickness, Might and much more powerful pets (without fortifying bond, though – but this will be a competitive choice).

tl;dr Please Welcome Rangers to the new buffed PvE meta. Hope this insight helps.

This is exciting stuff, good to see.

Also, well written.

Are you using Quick Draw as Skirmishing grandmaster?

I agree that the Ranger will be better then on currently when the patch ships. But so will everyone else, especially PS warrior who will not have a major DPS loss compared to the standard GS-axe/mace build when going PS.

Having said that, we will have a 10% + 10% damage modifier, 10% extra critical chance, and a 7% party critical chance and 7,5% party dps buff with the next patch.

Also if we are going into BM we will get 10% extra pet damage if the ranger is above 90% HP, ofc companions might which would be needed if there is no fortifying bond. So the pet gains extra 15% damage but will lose 10% extra critical damage (300 down from 450 ferocity means 20% down from 30%).

Depending on the content, i feel as if the BM line will compete with NM, but it all depends on how good the spirits are actually post patch.

The build seems like this: MM, Skirm, BM

-clarion bond, steady aim, predators
-XXXX (possibly trapper trait for HS CD), spotter, quick draw
-companions might, wilting strike, quickening zephyr

Lyger.5429:

Are you using Quick Draw as Skirmishing grandmaster?

Indeed. I thought it was obvious so I didn’t really mention it.
Without it – the double Path of Scars and Rapid Fires wouldn’t be possible.

Well if it’s to be a rotation playstyle, why not go with gsword then? Quickdraw mauls and better autottacks than LB, altho the lack of cripple might hurt the predator’s onlsaught bonus . Maul/gsword aa are all cleave as well.

Sharpened Edges will be a decent Adept regardless of condi damage purely because it affects both Ranger and pet and condi stacks are now 1500 max, which for all dungeon parties is impossible to hit. It will pair with Companion’s Might well imo.

Elorna.5329:

Well if it’s to be a rotation playstyle, why not go with gsword then? Quickdraw mauls and better autottacks than LB, altho the lack of cripple might hurt the predator’s onlsaught bonus . Maul/gsword aa are all cleave as well.

20 vulnerability and also Barrage to help proc Predator’s Onslaught.

Elorna.5329:

Well if it’s to be a rotation playstyle, why not go with gsword then? Quickdraw mauls and better autottacks than LB, altho the lack of cripple might hurt the predator’s onlsaught bonus . Maul/gsword aa are all cleave as well.

Having 3 Mauls instead of 2 (4 instead of 3 if you take the -20%CD trait) is not even a choice comparing to Rapid Fire.

Also, full AA-chain with Greatsword deals the exact same DPS as Longbow’s Melee shots.

Greatsword will have better mobility, defense, AoE and will be a subject for control. There is a nice synergy with Quick Draw and Moment of Clarity but that doesn’t belong to this thread.

Ye I understand the reasoning behind it, it’s the same reason why LB is taken in the current iteration. But the lack of cleave and rotational playstyle on LB in melee range just feels unnatural and wrong. Anyway, I’ll wait for my judgement until the actual patch hits and people make some thorough math analysis. Another thing that has me worried about a weapon swapping playstyle is the concurrent pet swapping playstyle, and the quickness you get with it. Being in LB at that time is a waste of damage, actually being on any weapon beside sword at that time is a waste of damage.

LB would pretty much only be used for boss fights, since everything else is “trash” and melts to sword AA anyhow.

Did the numbers on this myself using Sebrent’s spreadsheet as well after the update announcement. Still not happy losing out on our damage modifiers.

The only reason PVE Rangers were disappointed was because we were presented with extra damage modifiers we could take due to the new system. On the other hand, other classes will have access to more damage modifiers with the new system.

Yeah, our disappointment was warranted, especially with Strider’s Defense losing the 10% sword damage modifier and then being knocked down in the same tier as Spotter. The removal of Peak Strength also killed off the opportunity for Rangers to have access to another condition cleanse while dealing additional damage when above 90% health.

Between updates, PVE Rangers LOST the opportunity for build diversity to have Quick Draw or Strider’s Defense as our GM in Skirmishing, and WS is no longer a viable option compared to NM or BM. The 1st iteration of changes were not perfect, but it offered Rangers so many options in PVE. Just my take on it.

Removing the modifiers and using something like Quick Draw to spam RF and PoS to deal more damage than before is pretty telling. It’s made a more active game, not one that you just buff up and AA everything to death thanks to damage modifiers. I think Striders could have done with at least a 5% but meh, its fine now imo. Frost Spotter is better.

That’s not the point of my post. It’s not about what is more active than the other. Choices are now more narrow for PVE Rangers. And of course Frost Spotter is better, that’s a no brainer for any PVE Ranger.

The point on SD is that it is no longer a viable option for PVE, and without any damage modifier in the Master tier, a 2nd Ranger will have less to offer in a party than a 2nd Warrior.

Again, my beef is that options were taken away.

I’m just finding everything with quickdraw to look increadibly good.

Why would you want SD for PvE? Spotter is in that slot.

You remember how they said, in the preview, like every second sentence, that “these numbers are subject to change?” well, they changed. PvE is always the most limited for choice because of the very fine line between ‘most efficient’ ie most damage and the rest which is ‘totally useless’. There was only one meta ranger build before, now there are at least 2. Frost Spotter BM or Frost Spotter NM. If conditions are a thing, we have awesome options for that too, especially hybrids.

My problem: In every organized group you need: 2 eles, because Icebow OP, 1 warrior, because banners & PS both way too OP. Many dungeon paths can benefit from stealth in some way so thief is a natural choice & then you have 1 slot left. If you need stealth & reflects for something ranger won’t be taken. In a balanced game there would be a number of ways to be nearly equally effective.

2 x Ele
1 x PS
1 x SA Thief
1 x Frost Spotter with Axe OH

Meta.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Why would you want SD for PvE? Spotter is in that slot.

I don’t think you got what I was saying about SD in Master Tier without the damage mod. If there are 2 rangers in a party, and one took spotter, the other can take SD if and do a bit more damage than the other if it had a damage mod still attached to it.

Also, we knew very well that everything was not final, but that doesn’t change the fact that the 1st iteration allowed a Ranger to freely choose WS, NM, or BM as the 3rd spec and the numbers would not have been too off.

2nd iteration, it’s only NM and BM as options with Quick Draw as the only GM choice in Skirmishing. Pretty lame to me.

Well, if you have more than one ranger now, the 2nd can take hidden barbs, because sharpened edges will be good. I do agree, SD should have kept at least some modifier, or an attack speed increase (I would have preferred that).

SD will still find niche uses, like in arah, the boss that kills from range and the golem that gets buffed by the turrets in CoE.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

2 x Ele
1 x PS
1 x SA Thief
1 x Frost Spotter with Axe OH

Meta.

Wishful thinking. Sure it will be a good comp, but the ranger hate will stop it from becoming meta & there is the thing that jack of all trades or not, ranger reflecting still sucks donkey balls.

That and Guard providing Aegis rotations is a difficult thing to substitute out. Even a Ele/Thief/Guard/War composition, Chronomancer looks like to have taken a niche role in that spare spot.

Wondrouswall.7169:

That and Guard providing Aegis rotations is a difficult thing to substitute out. Even a Ele/Thief/Guard/War composition, Chronomancer looks like to have taken a niche role in that spare spot.

Things die so fast & faster without a guard, so that aegis is often a non issue.
Although yes aegis is highly valued overall. Just today I did SE in a pug & when I told them that I’m more than happy to use healing spring so that we don’t all die from 20 stacks of bleed on the first boss of p3 one guy asked if I was crazy for thinking we don’t need a guard and relogged on his bunker guard. (meta zerker 5k+ AP type of group)

Wondrouswall.7169:

That and Guard providing Aegis rotations is a difficult thing to substitute out. Even a Ele/Thief/Guard/War composition, Chronomancer looks like to have taken a niche role in that spare spot.

Aegis means little next to a Ranger that can AoE Blind for 5s and Weaken for 4s every 4.75s.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

2 x Ele
1 x PS
1 x SA Thief
1 x Frost Spotter with Axe OH

Meta.

I can see this coming.

Sina.9208:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

2 x Ele
1 x PS
1 x SA Thief
1 x Frost Spotter with Axe OH

Meta.

Wishful thinking. Sure it will be a good comp, but the ranger hate will stop it from becoming meta & there is the thing that jack of all trades or not, ranger reflecting still sucks donkey balls.

I don’t really care about Puggy arrogant Full Zerk 32 000+ AP Kick if you are not warrior runs.
I play with people that play for enjoyment or effectiveness. And Ranger will be the one bringing numbers to the table.

Yup, Frost Spotter S/A-LB with Hawk and GFTE/Wilting Strike is massive.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Aegis means little next to a Ranger that can AoE Blind for 5s and Weaken for 4s every 4.75s.

Aegis means a lot when blinds don’t. And 1 AOE blind every 5s vs a Thief that can do it 100%… Yeah. When it’s blind, weakness means nothing. And between Weakness and Aegis, Aegis is better.

Wondrouswall.7169:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Aegis means little next to a Ranger that can AoE Blind for 5s and Weaken for 4s every 4.75s.

Aegis means a lot when blinds don’t. And 1 AOE blind every 5s vs a Thief that can do it 100%… Yeah. When it’s blind, weakness means nothing. And between Weakness and Aegis, Aegis is better.

But with Thief that doesn’t belong to the meta (no party steroids) you can choose between AoE blind every 5 sec. and weakness every 4 sec for 4,75…
… I’d take Blind and Weakness.

Has any math been done with remorseless + quickdraw?

Prophet.1584:

Has any math been done with remorseless + quickdraw?

Remorseless would pretty much affect half of the Path of Scars (1 out of 2 hits). It increases the damage of your next attack – which is pretty meh considering Rapid Fire is 10 attacks (boost would only go up to a 10,25) and path of scars is still 2 hits. So you’d get 2,25 of that.

It can’t even be compared to the global 10% damage buff.
If Greatsword was the second weapon and Thrash was the subject – it might look like something with potential, but Remorseless is a clear PvP spike damage trait.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Yup, Frost Spotter S/A-LB with Hawk and GFTE/Wilting Strike is massive.

Why bother with the blindness trait in a PvE build when you’re giving up on the new and improved Companion’s Might to do so? Something a guardian, thief or even ele can do just as well or better without messing with their build? Hell why even consider taking birds at all, cats will always be better against stationary targets, or drakes for bigger trash mobs?

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

2 x Ele
1 x PS
1 x SA Thief
1 x Frost Spotter with Axe OH

Meta.

Needs more guardian. New elite shout too OP.

Quarktastic.1027:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

2 x Ele
1 x PS
1 x SA Thief
1 x Frost Spotter with Axe OH

Meta.

Needs more guardian. New elite shout too OP.

Ye this is what has me worried, plus after chronomancer goes out with the f5 timewarp recharges, I seriously doubt ranger will see any play in the meta. Spotter + frost spirit was only good when it had a 180+ cooldown timewarp to compete with. With quickness becoming a boon and guardians/ mesmers having it in the form of a party wide buff, spotter and FS lose a lot of their value.

Elorna.5329:

Quarktastic.1027:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

2 x Ele
1 x PS
1 x SA Thief
1 x Frost Spotter with Axe OH

Meta.

Needs more guardian. New elite shout too OP.

Ye this is what has me worried, plus after chronomancer goes out with the f5 timewarp recharges, I seriously doubt ranger will see any play in the meta.

Nerf icebow, bring ele staff dps down to levels where it’s more beneficial for overall party dps to run a frost spotter instead of a second ele.

That’s the only scenario I can see for rangers in speedrun groups.
For your ordinary dungeon tour ranger will work just fine and you won’t face problems with pugs I guess.

coax.2951:

Elorna.5329:

Quarktastic.1027:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

2 x Ele
1 x PS
1 x SA Thief
1 x Frost Spotter with Axe OH

Meta.

Needs more guardian. New elite shout too OP.

Ye this is what has me worried, plus after chronomancer goes out with the f5 timewarp recharges, I seriously doubt ranger will see any play in the meta.

Nerf icebow, bring ele staff dps down to levels where it’s more beneficial for overall party dps to run a frost spotter instead of a second ele.

That’s the only scenario I can see for rangers in speedrun groups.
For your ordinary dungeon tour ranger will work just fine and you won’t face problems with pugs I guess.

Or adding mobs that pulse revealed as a skipping nerf to all/most dungeons, making stealth useless. Altho that would be brutal tbh.

Elorna.5329:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Yup, Frost Spotter S/A-LB with Hawk and GFTE/Wilting Strike is massive.

Why bother with the blindness trait in a PvE build when you’re giving up on the new and improved Companion’s Might to do so? Something a guardian, thief or even ele can do just as well or better without messing with their build? Hell why even consider taking birds at all, cats will always be better against stationary targets, or drakes for bigger trash mobs?

Blind = Damage mitigation. Can you please show me any other class skill that can put up kitten AoE blind every 4.75s? I can’t find one. The 4.75s recharge on the Hawk F2 is the reason for taking it, that and it does the most DPS of all pets due to that low recharge. Remember too that you not only get Blind, but Weakness if the blind is used up immediately. It is a lot of damage mitigation, one of the main reasons Guards are brought along.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Elorna.5329:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Yup, Frost Spotter S/A-LB with Hawk and GFTE/Wilting Strike is massive.

Why bother with the blindness trait in a PvE build when you’re giving up on the new and improved Companion’s Might to do so? Something a guardian, thief or even ele can do just as well or better without messing with their build? Hell why even consider taking birds at all, cats will always be better against stationary targets, or drakes for bigger trash mobs?

Blind = Damage mitigation. Can you please show me any other class skill that can put up kitten AoE blind every 4.75s? I can’t find one. The 4.75s recharge on the Hawk F2 is the reason for taking it, that and it does the most DPS of all pets due to that low recharge. Remember too that you not only get Blind, but Weakness if the blind is used up immediately. It is a lot of damage mitigation, one of the main reasons Guards are brought along.

To answer your question:

Sword/Pistol Thief. Perma-blind for days.

Quarktastic.1027:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Elorna.5329:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Yup, Frost Spotter S/A-LB with Hawk and GFTE/Wilting Strike is massive.

Why bother with the blindness trait in a PvE build when you’re giving up on the new and improved Companion’s Might to do so? Something a guardian, thief or even ele can do just as well or better without messing with their build? Hell why even consider taking birds at all, cats will always be better against stationary targets, or drakes for bigger trash mobs?

Blind = Damage mitigation. Can you please show me any other class skill that can put up kitten AoE blind every 4.75s? I can’t find one. The 4.75s recharge on the Hawk F2 is the reason for taking it, that and it does the most DPS of all pets due to that low recharge. Remember too that you not only get Blind, but Weakness if the blind is used up immediately. It is a lot of damage mitigation, one of the main reasons Guards are brought along.

To answer your question:

Sword/Pistol Thief. Perma-blind for days.

This is definitely true. But makes me think… It sacrifices a lot of DPS. Maybe if we ran the numbers we might see that ranger by maintaining the rotation would apply lots of Weakness and Blindness – while thieves have to hinder their DPS in order to do so without the weakness.

Plus keep in mind, Rangers now keep the vulnerability spikes. Starting with 23, continuing with 23 after the 1st rotation swap (the pet applies some too). And we have more DPS than a guard. And can provide stack with a reflect.

Plus we now provide the bonus to swiftness and fury. In 50% uptime. I don’t know… In my opinion it looks competitive. If you ask me – running birds and Clarion Bond with out-of-combat Warhorn blasts might as well give the party close to perma swiftness. A lot of testing is ahead.

Yeah, I see Ranger as being able to fill a lot of different roles here. Jack of all trades.

1. Perma AoE Blind
2. AoE Weakness, 85% uptime.
3. Good DPS
4. Frost Spirit
5. Spotter
6. Perma Fury/Swiftness/Regen
7. 80% uptime on water field with 2 blasts.
8. Party condi cleanse, 5 per 24s. Per party member.
9. Can max out Vulnerability stacks, solo.
10. AoE Taunt every 15s to ball trash mobs.
11. 5s reflect on 25s CD.

That is a good list.

New Meta;

Frostspotter Support Ranger
PS Warrior
Chronomancer
2 x Frostbow eles.

Tragic Positive.9356:

This is definitely true. But makes me think… It sacrifices a lot of DPS. Maybe if we ran the numbers we might see that ranger by maintaining the rotation would apply lots of Weakness and Blindness – while thieves have to hinder their DPS in order to do so without the weakness.

The DPS sacrifice is worth it because the blind uptime is 100% vs 1 blind every 5 seconds and weakness, which is a gamble in itself and party members are getting hit. Blinds are also for trash anyways and w/e composition is there can DPS to their fullest without worrying about being damage.

Even if Thief is sacrificing some DPS to blind a mob, their Stealth and after the update, their 1v1 damage on bosses with D/D is worth taking over a Ranger. Go for the Eyes is a nice trait, but let’s not pull the card Necros tried to at launch saying they can compete with the blinds a Thief can.

We got an AOE blind, and as Elorna mentioned, we’re bringing Cats and Drakes to the PVE group. Using a Bird and dropping Companion’s Might for Go for the Eyes will be, at best, for bad PUGs.

Edit: Last chain of Sword auto for Thieves applies Weakness. The duration may not be as high as the weakness from Protective Ward + Wilting Strike, but they don’t need to spec into a traitline nor take a major trait to apply it either. Crippling Strike

Crippling Strike is only 1 target and since weakness doesn’t work on bosses, its more important to have AoE for trash. Sure, GFTE is not a pulsing blind but it is a missed attack every 4.75s, the aoe weakness is worth a 25% damage reduction, with 85% uptime.

And Hawk has the highest DPS of all pets.

The point here, is not that we are better than any class at one particular thing, other than vulnerability stacking. Guard is better at reflect and mitigation because of aegis on demand, thief is better at blind, ele is better at dps, war is better at stacking might. What ranger brings is a toolbox that other classes cannot compare to. Because we can do so much, the others can focus on other things to increase the total DPS and efficiency.

Well, but you should know ranger is not the only class that receive a dps buff.

Phanlanx Strength Warrior is getting roughly 40% dps increase. (20% Berserker Power, 10% GS traits were not available to them before due to trait limitation).

Guardian has that crazy +33% damage when foes stand in symbol. (I kinda forgot how much exactly, any link?)

Ele has their bolt of heart buffed too (from 33% threshhold → 50% threshhold), and their -cd becomes -33% instead of -20%., so they can spam even more skills.

Engi got on dodge blast finisher and more dps modifiers too.

In comparison, Quick Hand’s dps buff is quite minor in PVE set-up. I do understand it is invaluable in any PVP and WvW situations. Oh, don’t forget we lose dps trait from Eagle eye too. (Though in old times we usually take spotter anyway)

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Yeah, I see Ranger as being able to fill a lot of different roles here. Jack of all trades.

1. Perma AoE Blind
2. AoE Weakness, 85% uptime.
3. Good DPS
4. Frost Spirit
5. Spotter
6. Perma Fury/Swiftness/Regen
7. 80% uptime on water field with 2 blasts.
8. Party condi cleanse, 5 per 24s. Per party member.
9. Can max out Vulnerability stacks, solo.
10. AoE Taunt every 15s to ball trash mobs.
11. 5s reflect on 25s CD.

That is a good list.

New Meta;

Frostspotter Support Ranger
PS Warrior
Chronomancer
2 x Frostbow eles.

Not likely. Giving up thief for skipping + higher dps is kinda counter productive in dungeon. For Chrono, their dps is still questionable.
Anyway, I still think thief will take over a spot, especially after the super SA buff that most thieves can afford to take now. (PVE meta, Deadly Art, Crit, SA)

Honestly, it doesn’t bother me what the Meta is because I play with the same guys all the time so it will most likely be for us
Me as FrostSpotter
PS war
SA Thief
2 x Eles

Thieves will run DA, Crit and Trickery. Not SA. The buffs to that line doesn’t add anything to the thief’s current role.

Lazze.9870:

Thieves will run DA, Crit and Trickery. Not SA. The buffs to that line doesn’t add anything to the thief’s current role.

Why run Trickery in PVE? This is a “PVE numbers” discussion no?

Toxsa.2701:

Lazze.9870:

Thieves will run DA, Crit and Trickery. Not SA. The buffs to that line doesn’t add anything to the thief’s current role.

Why run Trickery in PVE? This is a “PVE numbers” discussion no?

Because it has damage modifiers and gives you more initiative.

This is a “PVE numbers” discussion, no?

Lazze.9870:

Toxsa.2701:

Lazze.9870:

Thieves will run DA, Crit and Trickery. Not SA. The buffs to that line doesn’t add anything to the thief’s current role.

Why run Trickery in PVE? This is a “PVE numbers” discussion no?

Because it has damage modifiers and gives you more initiative.

This is a “PVE numbers” discussion, no?

Well, simple solution, trait for SA when skipping and trait for Trickery after the skipping part. Problem solved. A skilled dungeon runners already do that, and it’d be even easier to do that post patch.

My point stands, that thief, along with War and Ele will always occupy at least 3 slots in any decent team. So other 5 classes have to fight for that 2 spots. (and ele may steal one more spot too) Usually Guardian will take one more spot if you want to have a smoother round. So that leaves 1 spot.

Toxsa.2701:

Lazze.9870:

Toxsa.2701:

Lazze.9870:

Thieves will run DA, Crit and Trickery. Not SA. The buffs to that line doesn’t add anything to the thief’s current role.

Why run Trickery in PVE? This is a “PVE numbers” discussion no?

Because it has damage modifiers and gives you more initiative.

This is a “PVE numbers” discussion, no?

Well, simple solution, trait for SA when skipping and trait for Trickery after the skipping part. Problem solved. A skilled dungeon runners already do that, and it’d be even easier to do that post patch.t.

Theives has always been running trickery. 66002 in the current meta, 56003 before they recieved the +200 power while revealed trait.

SA was only usefull in longer boss fights when initiative from cloak and dagger stealth gave you a higher dps uptime than the traits from trickery. A skilled thief won’t need SA for any skipping at all, buffs doesn’t change that unless new content require so.

Usefull Trickery tratis for dungeons:
Minors:
Kleptomaniac: Stealing gives you 2 initiative.
Preparedness: Increases maximum initiative by 3.
Lead Attacks: Increases damage by 1% per initiative. Steal recharges 15% faster.

Majors:
Flanking Strike: Gain haste when attacking a foe from behind or the side.
Thrill of the Crime: When you Steal, you and all nearby allies gain fury, might, and swiftness for ten seconds.
Bountiful Theft: Stealing grants you and all nearby allies vigor. You rip boons from your target and grant them to nearby allies.

Usefull SA traits for dungeons:
Uhm, none? Yeah, your stealth lasts longer, but that isn’t really needed. It doesn’t add anything.

Other than that, your points about thieves’ spot in the meta still stands. But “SA thieves” ain’t a PvE thing.