Guild Wars 2

I can do some napkin math.

Sword/Axe: Auto attack takes 1.8 seconds. Does 202, 202, 235 damage. AA DPS is 355.
Hornets Sting: takes about 1 second. Does 235 damage for 235 DPS
Monarch’s Leap: Don’t have the timing on this. Assuming at least a quarter second aftercast, this does 336 DPS
Serpent’s Strike: Does 235 damage over the course of 1 second. Assuming at least a quarter second aftercast, this does 188 DPS
Path of Scars: 235 × 2 damage. Assuming quarter second after cast, this is 627 DPS
Whirling Defense: 1008 damage over 5 seconds. 202 DPS.
Notes 1: AA sustains 2.8 stacks of might per target hit on the pet. Against 3 targets this is about 8.3 stacks of might.
Note 2: AA’s second move only hits 1 target.

Greatsword: Takes 2.56 seconds for the full rotation. Tooltips are 203, 203, 240. Tooltip DPS is 252 for the auto attack.
Maul: 434 tooltip damage. Assuming a quarter second aftercast, it has 434 DPS + 5% extra afterward for 8 seconds.
Swoop: 327 over 2 seconds. 164 DPS
Counterattack: insufficient data to calculate DPS. No known animation time.
Hit Bash: 185 damage over, assuming a quarter second aftercast, 0.75 seconds. DPS is 247.
Note 1: Maul hits 5 targets.

To get these DPS numbers, I take the highest recharge skill (path of scars, maul), and then see how may auto attacks go into that recharge time, then divide that by recharge + attack time of the highest recharge skill.

(Single Target)
Sword: 367 DPS
Greatsword: 289 DPS

(3 Targets)
Sword: 896
Greatsword: 868

(5 targets)
Sword: 896
Greatsword: 992

Now, for modifiers. Note, I’m only listing modifiers that would be different between each build. Otherwise they cancel out (I.e. steady focus).

Sword: Predators Onslaught (10%),

Greatsword: Two hand Training (5%), Remorseless (7.5%).

Single Target:
Sword: 404
Greatsword: 326

I’ll have to test opening strike against simultaneous enemies. If it doesn’t distribute the vulnerability to everyone, then… things get complicated.

Anyway, from napkin math it looks like sword does 24% more damage than Greatsword against a single target. Against multiple targets, this evens out, though. There are several wild cards, though:

#1: Pet DPS, Sword. This is the tricky one, since both weapons affect it. If you take Companion’s Might, assuming 70% crit rate, Sword will stack 9.2 stacks of might on a single target, and 22 stacks of might against multiple targets. Using a cat (say, Jaguar) with beast mastery, this is an 18% / 43% direct damage increase, and a 75% / 180% increase in condition damage.

#2: Pet DPS, Greatsword. Vulnerability has an effect, too. Companion’s might will stack 4 stacks of might on a single target, and 13 stacks against multiple targets. The GS will maintain, on average, 13.2 stacks of vulnerability on a single target (multiple targets needs to be tested). So, using the Jaguar again, the total damage boost will be a 22% direct damage boost on a single target, and 50% condi damage.

#3: Specific weapon rotations. It isn’t said, but the current set up implies greatsword/greatsword for furious grip.

#4: Party DPS, and how vulnerability affects it. Particularly, how much the party applies, too.

#5: Evades. All evades that aren’t attached to the GS auto attack count as a DPS loss. Should the GS auto happen to be timed to avoid attacks, this will be a DPS boost for the GS.

#6: Burst. This is all assuming a stable fight. However, as well all know, melee rangers like to combine Signet of the Wild, Zephy’rs Speed, and Quickening Zephyr together to do a furious burst. Done within opening strike, and things get crazy.

The question becomes this: does all that compensate for the 24% in which the GS lags behind the sword with? I’m not so sure.

You need to add Swoop and maybe even Hilt Bash(Since it increases your pet’s next attack by 50%) to the GS calculation if you want to compare them fairly.

Also i find it odd that Path of Scars has higher dps than Maul when the latter hits about as hard but recharges three times as fast with two hand training.
Another wildcard there is how often Path of Scars bugs out and doesen’t return

short answer:

sword is optimal for boss damage in almost all situations.

but you should use whatever you want, because its your game and your time to enjoy it. if you want to use greatsword and not get heckled by pve heroes, just keep some logic in your back pocket for why you are running it:

• i dont want to lose control of my character with 1h sword and die. dead ranger is a huge dps loss.
• its important to stack on _. I dont want 1h sword to send me flying out of the stack.
• GS block is useful for cheesing ____ in this section.

Give them good reasons. Dont try to tell them that GS does comparable damage though, because it doesnt and saying so will make it appear like you dont know what you are doing (which is what they assumed when they saw the ranger icon next to your name).

Petrol.9086:

You need to add Swoop and maybe even Hilt Bash(Since it increases your pet’s next attack by 50%) to the GS calculation if you want to compare them fairly.

Also i find it odd that Path of Scars has higher dps than Maul when the latter hits about as hard but recharges three times as fast with two hand training.
Another wildcard there is how often Path of Scars bugs out and doesen’t return

I knew I forgot something. Swoop is a DPS loss, though. Hit bash is good, but a single pet attack being 50% stronger in a 25 second period… kind of hard to factor in. I’d need to know the attack rate of pets. Crude experimentation is getting an attack rate of about 20 times in 25 seconds, so hit bash will raise one of them by 1.5. This is about a 2.5% damage increase overall on the pet, so I guess you could throw that on.

I also forgot the recharge reduction on Maul with two-handed training, and the damage boost from opening strike. Previously I just listed the vulnerability stacking. So, including the recharge reduction only, you’ll get

Sword:367
GS: 300

At base. Factoring in the rest of the damage mods. 5% for two handed training. 7.5% for remorseless vulnerability. 7.5% for remoreseless increased damage.

Sword: 404
GS: 364

Total difference: 11%

The thing with Path of Scars/Maul is that I am listing DPS per activation time. You’re thinking of DPS per recharge. It isn’t shown directly in the math, but Maul is raises GS DPS much more than Path of Scars raises sword DPS.

Thanks Blood, that sounds like what I expected. the 24 seemed off. Maul is huge for GS that’s for sure. And, are you sure on swoop? I know tooltip says 1.75s cast time, but if you have a target right in front of you, you don’t do the whole run, you start then leap and strike. Going off wiki info you’d just need a little less than a second cast to beat out the first two autos and for the third auto you could have even longer. Maybe I’m missing something but seems you can increase your potential DPS notably by working maul/swoop in place of that third power stab auto.

So now that we’ve seen the napkin math being an approx 11% difference, let’s not forget what that 11% really means in a group setting. You’ve got 5 other allies reach doing their own ~10k dps. Literally any ally would just need to auto attack once to make up the lost damage.

Moral of the story, unless you’re going for record runs, GS vs Sword is negligible. Ultimately, unless you’re going for record runs, record run builds aren’t necessary, but that’s a different discussion entirely.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Moral of the story, if you’re playing ranger, play whatever you want.

Fixed. You don’t bring rangers in record runs, or standard dungeon teams. But the difference is not that bad in the second scenario.

Ghotistyx.6942:

So now that we’ve seen the napkin math being an approx 11% difference, let’s not forget what that 11% really means in a group setting. You’ve got 5 other allies reach doing their own ~10k dps. Literally any ally would just need to auto attack once to make up the lost damage.

Moral of the story, unless you’re going for record runs, GS vs Sword is negligible. Ultimately, unless you’re going for record runs, record run builds aren’t necessary, but that’s a different discussion entirely.

11% if you are running double GS and swapping to it for furious grip to proc perma fury, remoresless and to score quickdraw cd’s. The vast majority of rangers running a ranged weaponswap and will be much more than 11% behind.

There are great reasons to run GS. Damage is not one of them.

Raven.9603:

Ghotistyx.6942:

So now that we’ve seen the napkin math being an approx 11% difference, let’s not forget what that 11% really means in a group setting. You’ve got 5 other allies reach doing their own ~10k dps. Literally any ally would just need to auto attack once to make up the lost damage.

Moral of the story, unless you’re going for record runs, GS vs Sword is negligible. Ultimately, unless you’re going for record runs, record run builds aren’t necessary, but that’s a different discussion entirely.

11% if you are running double GS and swapping to it for furious grip to proc perma fury, remoresless and to score quickdraw cd’s. The vast majority of rangers running a ranged weaponswap and will be much more than 11% behind.

There are great reasons to run GS. Damage is not one of them.

That’s just not true, Two Hand traning procs fury/remorseless and his calculations were based on Maul with a 4 second cooldown. I’m also not entierly conviced Swoop is a dps loss since it hits instantly for substatial dammage on a short cooldown.

Don’t get me wrong, Sword is still the best damage option but the differance really isn’t that substantial thanks to the buffs to two hand training and it’s synergy with remorseless.

Let us be honest with one another, 10-20% damage increase on a single character in any particular dungeon will not be noticed unless the team members involved are speed run specialists and do that particular path all the time. I routinely run GS 100% of the time for CoE 2/3 because of Subject Alpha’s attacks there and the actual DPS change is unnoticeable. I wish people would stop worrying about such small DPS values and actually extrapolate that DPS over time to see how small a difference it actually makes in real play. It may be just me, but I hardly notice it.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Let us be honest with one another, 10-20% damage increase on a single character in any particular dungeon will not be noticed unless the team members involved are speed run specialists and do that particular path all the time. I routinely run GS 100% of the time for CoE 2/3 because of Subject Alpha’s attacks there and the actual DPS change is unnoticeable. I wish people would stop worrying about such small DPS values and actually extrapolate that DPS over time to see how small a difference it actually makes in real play. It may be just me, but I hardly notice it.

This is so silly.

When ele and thief and engineer dps get moved out of the picture, ele in particular, an 11% DPS difference is significant.

You just don’t notice the difference because your class is already getting carried in damage significantly by the ele.

2 eles alone melt any boss in under 1-2 minutes.

When we have real raid fights that last any amount of time, and frostbow/meteor shower get a rightful nerf to multi-hit large hit boxes, your 11% best case scenario difference is noticeable.

This is why this game’s pve is gone to hell, it’s like we don’t have any real raiding scene and the kind of playerbase we have thinks an 11% output difference is remotely acceptable.

11% under ideal circumstances is NOT marginal, ever.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I knew I forgot something. Swoop is a DPS loss, though.

Swoop is a DPS gain. The 1.75 sec channel time listed on the skill is only if you’re at max range (1100) from the target. If you use it in melee range, it takes less than a second, I’d estimate 3/4 to 1 sec with aftercast. Try it.

I’m pretty sure all the GS skills except Crippling Throw are DPS gains over the autoattack. I leverage them with an intelligence sigil by using all three immediately after swapping to GS in combat. Usually Swoop to get in range, hilt bash to stun/daze it, then Maul.

It’s also worth noting that GS’s AOE damage is much easier to achieve. The autoattack AOE seems to have the same range for both GS and sword (test among the grouped golems in the Mists), but with sword you have to select a target to use it (otherwise you go jumping forward and out of range). So you have to try to select a target that’s in the middle, and hope that means the cleaves hit the max 3 targets. With GS you just stand in the middle facing approx the midpoint of the targets (even if there is no actual target there) and the cleaves will hit.

Maul’s AOE radius is substantially larger too.

So now that we’ve seen the napkin math being an approx 11% difference, let’s not forget what that 11% really means in a group setting. You’ve got 5 other allies reach doing their own ~10k dps. Literally any ally would just need to auto attack once to make up the lost damage.

Don’t forget that in a group, the effect of the vulnerability from GS is multiplied (assuming you’re not at the vulnerability cap). Couple this with the Remorseless build repeatedly applying 5% vulnerability every time you get fury.

Solo though, the DPS loss going with GS is pretty noticeable. Not so much against sword (IMHO sword’s mobility loss when doing open-world PvE against multiple targets detracts from its DPS – you can’t maneuver yourself to fluidly move from target to target), but against Path of Scars combined with Quickdraw.

All that said, remorseless GS + S/A is a great combo. It’s got enough burst DPS that it even works well for hybrid builds (i.e. not full berserker). The addition of the Quick Draw trait was a game-changer IMHO. Suddenly max DPS no longer comes from selecting one weapon set and sticking with it. Quick Draw means you can substantially increase DPS by maximizing the number of weapon swaps.

And the interaction between the cooldown timers means it’s rare for two duplicate weapon sets to provide max DPS. e.g. 15 sec cooldown for Path of Scars means with Quick Draw it gets reduced to 5 sec. Do you fire Path of Scars once, then wait 10 sec to weapon swap before using it again, effectively gaining only a 33% cooldown reduction instead of 66%? Or do you just fire it again after 5 sec, then switch to a different weapon like GS and gain Quick Draw’s full benefit with that weapon.

That’s what makes Quick Draw such a great trait from a game design standpoint. It creates situations where the whole (two different weapon sets) can be greater than the sum of the parts (each weapon set separately). Which adds a whole new dimension to doing DPS comparisons.

Remorseless has a similar effect. Marksmanship (opening strikes are always criticals) + Remorseless (opening strike on fury) + 2H training (20% chance for fury on attack) + Clarion Bond (fury on pet swap) + Skirmishing (fury on weapon swap, overlaps effect of intelligence sigil) means you can have a substantial number of critical hits even if your precision is low. Valkyrie (power, vit, ferocity) and Cavalier’s (toughness, power, ferocity) suddenly become viable choices. I’m pretty sure if you’re using those stats, you’ll have higher DPS with a remorseless GS build than with a Predator’s Onslaught S/A build.

Anet is doing a great job adding wrinkles and niches so the best-DPS setup for one build doesn’t automatically mean it’s also the best-DPS setup for a different build.

Zenith.7301:

This is so silly.

When ele and thief and engineer dps get moved out of the picture, ele in particular, an 11% DPS difference is significant.

You just don’t notice the difference because your class is already getting carried in damage significantly by the ele.

2 eles alone melt any boss in under 1-2 minutes.

When we have real raid fights that last any amount of time, and frostbow/meteor shower get a rightful nerf to multi-hit large hit boxes, your 11% best case scenario difference is noticeable.

This is why this game’s pve is gone to hell, it’s like we don’t have any real raiding scene and the kind of playerbase we have thinks an 11% output difference is remotely acceptable.

11% under ideal circumstances is NOT marginal, ever.

11% is marginal. Let’s not forget you aren’t in combat for the entire 2 hour raid. That 11% impact is divided by the 10 or 25 other people you’re with, and the actual increased time to kill is negligible time spent. You could make up that lost time just by having people position better or getting prepared sooner as opposed to Rangers using s/a over gs. Even going through a run at 80% optimal dps doesn’t increase time by 20%.

And this is all relevant to traditional WoW style raiding. Do you really think Anet is going to give us that? 11% already doesn’t make or break a Teq or Wurm event, and that’s probably closer to what we’ll be experiencing than traditional raiding.

Lets be honest if the raids are well made at all the 11% is not going to be the focal point of the decision making process. You’ll be considering the offhands vs the defensive attributes of GS more than the damage output. A well timed axe5 has far more potency than 11% damage difference. And defensively you’ll be considering dagger offhand vs GS

I expect some sort of enrage timer, but I highly doubt it will be tuned so tight that 11% difference will make or break it.

Guys, my numbers aren’t the end all beat all. They just assume certain effects under an indefinitely long fight.

#1: Yes, I basically did assume double greatsword for furious grip. You can still make use of furious grip with something like the longbow, but drastically changes how the battle plays out. That assumption is just a product of me using another person’s tests on onslaught vs. remorseless.

#2: This involves a very basic strategy for sword. Many pure sword DPS builds will have double axes as the offhand, taking advantage of the weapon swap traits to use Path of Scars on a 9 second cooldown. Doing this, we’ll get a sword DPS of 414, or a 13.7% increase.

#3: Pets exist, and contribute meaningfully to a player’s DPS. I didn’t calculate pet numbers because I don’t know where to begin.

#4: Opening Strike exists for the sword, too. Under indefinite assumptions opening strike is minimal benefit. But real fights don’t play out like that. Melee rangers burst down very quickly with quickness.

Personally, I consider any increase above 10% to be significant, because 10% is the maximum amount of variability in damage from RNG alone. Sword has that, so against single targets it is a noticable damage loss.

I’m probably going to have to come up with a new kind of test. My inability to factor in pet damage is hamstringing things.

Totally true, and I don’t mean to ignore or brush off a double digit difference. That said, I think it’s acceptable given that sword is a kittening pain in the kitten . Yes suboptimal, but still not necro level. Run GS and you’ll still be contributing and when you consider any personal loss is cut to roughly 20% (5 people in a group) well, it becomes pretty negligible. You’re still contributing a large amount, just not as much as you could. But assuming that everyone can handle that annoying sword auto is just as faulty as overlooking the damage loss.

Want to be the best ranger you can be, of course Sword, but want to just contribute to a group GS becomes acceptable and more than viable.

Again I find the off hand benefits to be more of a factor than the damage, Fury/might from warhorn and reflects from axe will benefit a group more than 11%+ damage.

Jerus.4350:

Again I find the off hand benefits to be more of a factor than the damage, Fury/might from warhorn and reflects from axe will benefit a group more than 11%+ damage.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Ever since I dropped my longbow and picked up a sword, I’ve felt much more versatile in group scenarios. Having a reflect alone is a tremendous asset when dealing with those “meta pug” zerker groups that consist of nothing but warriors and eles. (I’m aware that warriors and eles do have reflects, but more often than not, they refuse to use them)

I really wish whirling defense worked with quick draw, but having a 5 second reflect on a 9 second cooldown does seem a bit extreme when you look at it objectively.

Quarktastic.1027:

Jerus.4350:

Again I find the off hand benefits to be more of a factor than the damage, Fury/might from warhorn and reflects from axe will benefit a group more than 11%+ damage.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Ever since I dropped my longbow and picked up a sword, I’ve felt much more versatile in group scenarios. Having a reflect alone is a tremendous asset when dealing with those “meta pug” zerker groups that consist of nothing but warriors and eles. (I’m aware that warriors and eles do have reflects, but more often than not, they refuse to use them)

I really wish whirling defense worked with quick draw, but having a 5 second reflect on a 9 second cooldown does seem a bit extreme when you look at it objectively.

I don’t. For one, warhorn is obsolete with PSEA warrior and ele in a group. psea warrior makes any outside sources of might obsolete, and ele gives the group easy perma-fury.

In fact, those classes need nerfs to those boon uptimes if other classes are to become useful. Why bring a warhorn ranger when classes with better damage bring much more uptime and far more might stacks to boot, not to mention banners and ice bow. I mean, something like necromancer’s Blood is Power comes off horrendous, 8 might stacks for the group for 8 seconds is nothing next to a warrior who spikes 25 might stacks for the group for longer times without sacrificing a utility slot.

In the same vein, Quick Draw should work with Whirling Defense. For one, the skill makes you stationary, it does horrendous damage itself so its a significant personal DPS loss.

Ranger should have the highest reflect uptimes with Quick Draw compared to mesmer or guardian who can instantly lay down a reflection bubble and continue to do their own attacks and other utilities without DPS loss.

Clarion Bond also makes warhorn obsolete. It’s still good to carry around for blasting lightning/fire/smoke fields out of combat.

Zenith.7301:

Quarktastic.1027:

Jerus.4350:

Again I find the off hand benefits to be more of a factor than the damage, Fury/might from warhorn and reflects from axe will benefit a group more than 11%+ damage.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Ever since I dropped my longbow and picked up a sword, I’ve felt much more versatile in group scenarios. Having a reflect alone is a tremendous asset when dealing with those “meta pug” zerker groups that consist of nothing but warriors and eles. (I’m aware that warriors and eles do have reflects, but more often than not, they refuse to use them)

I really wish whirling defense worked with quick draw, but having a 5 second reflect on a 9 second cooldown does seem a bit extreme when you look at it objectively.

I don’t. For one, warhorn is obsolete with PSEA warrior and ele in a group. psea warrior makes any outside sources of might obsolete, and ele gives the group easy perma-fury.

Not every group runs with a PS war and/or Ele. Though yeah, warhorn isn’t all that great.

So I devised a rather simple test. In the heart of the mists I decided to see how long it would take to kill the indestructible golem 5 times.

Amulet: Berserker
Runes: Ranger
Pet: Jungle Stalker/Jaguar.
Sigils: Force/Battle
Utilities: Healing Spring, Quickening Zephyr, Frost Spirit, Signet of the Wild, Strength of the pack

Sword + Axe/Axe
Build: Marksmanship 3 2, 1. Skirmishing 1, 1, 1. Beast Mastery 2, 3, 2.
Rotation: Auto attack until weapon swap. Then use Path of Scars.

Time 1: 1:09
Time 2: 1:11
Time 3: 1:10
Time without pet swapping: 1:14

Greatsword/Greatsword
Build: Marksmanship 3, 2, 2. Skirmishing 1, 1, 1. Beast Mastery 2, 2, 2.
Rotation: Spam skills when available. Weapon swap is timed to coincide with Maul for fastest maul times.

Time 1: 1:15
Time 2: 1:16
Time 3: 1:13

Average GS time: 1:14:7
Average Sword Time 1:11:0

I’m coming up with a 5% damage difference between the two. This is… quite a bit smaller than what my napkin math showed.

You’re probably wondering why it is I ran a test without pet swapping. It was a bit of trivia I was wondering about: the buffs on a pet reset when you swap them, so the copious might buffing from sword vanishes when swapped. I tested to see if it was better to not swap (jaguar), and turns out no, it is not.

Now for the next test that everyone is wondering about: the non-weapon swap variants. Often times, the off-hand will be reserved for longbow for ranging down a target. So, non-weapon swap variants. These will assume a slightly unique rotation, in that the fight will be opened with longbow rapidfire, and then a melee weapon will be swapped to. Also note, there is a slight build change here: instead of a Sigil of Battle on the off-hand, a sigil of strength is used instead.

Greatsword
Time 1: 1:16
Time 2: 1:16
Time 3: 1:20

Sword/Axe
Time 1: 1:07
Time 2: 1: 05
Time 3: 1:07

I think that the superior numbers here are from the superiority of the sigil of strength. Anyway, comparing these numbers, the sword is 16.6% better than the Greatsword.

So, you’re all probably wondering why it is that the GS/GS is nearly the same as Sword + Axe/Axe, but when taken by themselves the Sword + Axe does so much more damage than the Greatsword. That all comes down to two traits: Furious Grip, and Quick Draw. On the Greatsword, the weapon swap of maul → one AA chain → maul contributes a surprising amount of DPS bonus, both through the high damage of the combo and also through vulnerability. On the GS/GS run vulnerability was frequently capped, but on the single weapon run it was only occasionally capped. With Furious Grip the return of opening strike was always put onto maul, giving a 25% bonus where it was needed most.

Path of Scars, while a good skill, isn’t as much of a linchpin in sword DPS. So, when taken by itself, the sword does substantially more damage than the greatsword.

Would you want to swap LB every 30s for the rapid fire → Barrage → Rapid Fire + like 2 autos?

I don’t know. I didn’t test that. I was comparing Sword/Axe with Greatsword. Throwing in additional longbow swaps would’ve added another variable.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I don’t know. I didn’t test that. I was comparing Sword/Axe with Greatsword. Throwing in additional longbow swaps would’ve added another variable.

Ohh I know, just curious if it’s worthwhile is all.

Jerus.4350:

Zenith.7301:

Quarktastic.1027:

Jerus.4350:

Again I find the off hand benefits to be more of a factor than the damage, Fury/might from warhorn and reflects from axe will benefit a group more than 11%+ damage.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Ever since I dropped my longbow and picked up a sword, I’ve felt much more versatile in group scenarios. Having a reflect alone is a tremendous asset when dealing with those “meta pug” zerker groups that consist of nothing but warriors and eles. (I’m aware that warriors and eles do have reflects, but more often than not, they refuse to use them)

I really wish whirling defense worked with quick draw, but having a 5 second reflect on a 9 second cooldown does seem a bit extreme when you look at it objectively.

I don’t. For one, warhorn is obsolete with PSEA warrior and ele in a group. psea warrior makes any outside sources of might obsolete, and ele gives the group easy perma-fury.

Not every group runs with a PS war and/or Ele. Though yeah, warhorn isn’t all that great.

In that case the group is already gimping itself.

There really is no substitute for Phalanx Strength, Empower Allies (the strongest of the auras, compared to precision or ferocity), 2 banners which are exclusive to the warrior and grant power/condidmg+precision+ferocity (so essentially 4 extra aura effects for 5 group auras total and easy 25 might stacks gathered by a single person in the group).

Then you have ele, which is simply unmatched dps, thief comes close but doesn’t have the immense utility of ice bow, glyph of sandstorm, permanent fury from simply putting down lava font, access to water fields and easy blasting of them, glyph of earth elemental.’

It’s the reason they need some nerfing or the lesser classes need significant damage buffs and utility.

Zenith.7301:

Quarktastic.1027:

Jerus.4350:

Again I find the off hand benefits to be more of a factor than the damage, Fury/might from warhorn and reflects from axe will benefit a group more than 11%+ damage.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Ever since I dropped my longbow and picked up a sword, I’ve felt much more versatile in group scenarios. Having a reflect alone is a tremendous asset when dealing with those “meta pug” zerker groups that consist of nothing but warriors and eles. (I’m aware that warriors and eles do have reflects, but more often than not, they refuse to use them)

I really wish whirling defense worked with quick draw, but having a 5 second reflect on a 9 second cooldown does seem a bit extreme when you look at it objectively.

I don’t. For one, warhorn is obsolete with PSEA warrior and ele in a group. psea warrior makes any outside sources of might obsolete, and ele gives the group easy perma-fury.

In fact, those classes need nerfs to those boon uptimes if other classes are to become useful. Why bring a warhorn ranger when classes with better damage bring much more uptime and far more might stacks to boot, not to mention banners and ice bow. I mean, something like necromancer’s Blood is Power comes off horrendous, 8 might stacks for the group for 8 seconds is nothing next to a warrior who spikes 25 might stacks for the group for longer times without sacrificing a utility slot.

In the same vein, Quick Draw should work with Whirling Defense. For one, the skill makes you stationary, it does horrendous damage itself so its a significant personal DPS loss.

Ranger should have the highest reflect uptimes with Quick Draw compared to mesmer or guardian who can instantly lay down a reflection bubble and continue to do their own attacks and other utilities without DPS loss.

I never mentioned warhorn specifically. Besides that, warhorn is great for blasting stealth/might, considering it’s our only on demand blast finisher (that can be used out of combat)

Ranger having the highest reflect uptime in the game seems a little silly too. A thief’s only reflect skill locks him out of his weapon/utility skills as well, though he can move around while reflecting stuff. Daggerstorm is also a DPS loss.

Zenith.7301:

Prophet.1584:

GS is perfectly viable and the dps loss is negligible at best since the last patch. it would still be a good idea to learn sword andh ow to play within the bounds of how it works. use gs in situations where the leap could kill you like harpy fractal. dagger oh evades break the leap animation so you could use that until you’re used to it. and turn off auto attack.

The DPS difference is not negligible. Stop this myth.

It’s a convenient weapon to use over 1h sword, but it’s a notable DPS loss.

It is easy to tell in parties if everyone is zerk or not or that every one is putting on max DPS or not. Sadly, it’s still not worth bringing a Ranger into high levels. Until the 100% of the DPS is given to the Ranger and it brings more utilities. Right now I do like some pug zerk parties 2 ele, 1 guard, 1 ea ps war, 1 thief… but everyone has to be on point, but it does allow for some forgiveness… maybe swap the thief for a mes because time warp.

TheFantasticGman.9451:

Zenith.7301:

Prophet.1584:

GS is perfectly viable and the dps loss is negligible at best since the last patch. it would still be a good idea to learn sword andh ow to play within the bounds of how it works. use gs in situations where the leap could kill you like harpy fractal. dagger oh evades break the leap animation so you could use that until you’re used to it. and turn off auto attack.

The DPS difference is not negligible. Stop this myth.

It’s a convenient weapon to use over 1h sword, but it’s a notable DPS loss.

It is easy to tell in parties if everyone is zerk or not or that every one is putting on max DPS or not. Sadly, it’s still not worth bringing a Ranger into high levels. Until the 100% of the DPS is given to the Ranger and it brings more utilities. Right now I do like some pug zerk parties 2 ele, 1 guard, 1 ea ps war, 1 thief… but everyone has to be on point, but it does allow for some forgiveness… maybe swap the thief for a mes because time warp.

i’d say one thing it is up to the ranger to Balance his damage between pet and personal dps by using quickness/ crits to buff might on pet ect , if a person simply ignores the pet and goes all out for personal damage they are the ones that are loosing out.

this thread is about Greatsword Viablilty not optimal groups…which don’t belong in LFG if people want these optimal groups advertise it as Zerk group do not Assume every one in LFG is running Optimal builds because guess what they are not , the optimal group of people are like 10% of gw2 player base others don’t give a monkey if they are or not , and the rest simply dont have any monkeys to give as long as the content is cleared.

the difference between Sword+axe and GS is bearly noticable in real world play on paper its noticeable but in the game for a good casual run its not noticeable m unless you belong to a Speed running guild which is them optimised and shouldn’t be Advertising for players in LFG.

LFG = casual no requirements unless stated , not to be Assumed that everyone is running optimal stats.
Private group = Assume all you like, kick all you like , do what ever the hell you want , tell people what to do. ( i doubt you’ll make any friends or get them to join you on onther fast run)

no one gives two monkeys about a 5% overall dps loss when you consider the new Quickness buffs ect ect , its like an extra 5seconds per boss maybe 30-40secs slower than a optimal run , which is nothing when you have players chilling out with a snacks+drink for a easy friday night.

you want to enforce Optimal play go join a speed running guild.

Gs is Viable.

i don’t know why but i prefer to use ranger GS then warrior and guard

they are so chunky while ranger GS provide you mobility

Maul beat thousand blade anytime specially in wvw

been rooted to do tons of damage HELL NO!

Maul FTW !

then again i “hope” ( deep down in my heart i know this will NEVER EVER HAPPEN ) they buff a little more damage to ranger weapons maybe 10% to 15% across all weapons

Zenith.7301:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Let us be honest with one another, 10-20% damage increase on a single character in any particular dungeon will not be noticed unless the team members involved are speed run specialists and do that particular path all the time. I routinely run GS 100% of the time for CoE 2/3 because of Subject Alpha’s attacks there and the actual DPS change is unnoticeable. I wish people would stop worrying about such small DPS values and actually extrapolate that DPS over time to see how small a difference it actually makes in real play. It may be just me, but I hardly notice it.

This is so silly.

When ele and thief and engineer dps get moved out of the picture, ele in particular, an 11% DPS difference is significant.

You just don’t notice the difference because your class is already getting carried in damage significantly by the ele.

2 eles alone melt any boss in under 1-2 minutes.

When we have real raid fights that last any amount of time, and frostbow/meteor shower get a rightful nerf to multi-hit large hit boxes, your 11% best case scenario difference is noticeable.

This is why this game’s pve is gone to hell, it’s like we don’t have any real raiding scene and the kind of playerbase we have thinks an 11% output difference is remotely acceptable.

11% under ideal circumstances is NOT marginal, ever.

11% under less than idea circumstances IS marginal, which is the point I was making. I specifically stated that unless you are doing organised speed runs and everyone is using the Meta build with the meta team composition, perfect cons etc, then it isn’t noticeable and therefore pointless to even think about. Again, lets be honest, a very small number of dungeon runs are made with ideal circumstances when compared to how many are actually run.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

11% under less than idea circumstances IS marginal, which is the point I was making. I specifically stated that unless you are doing organised speed runs and everyone is using the Meta build with the meta team composition, perfect cons etc, then it isn’t noticeable and therefore pointless to even think about. Again, lets be honest, a very small number of dungeon runs are made with ideal circumstances when compared to how many are actually run.

But its not “less than ideal circumstances.” It was 11% under absolutely ideal circumstances: double GS for quickdraw and furious grip / remorseless synergy.

Most rangers dont run double melee in dungeons, and if they did it wouldn’t be 2x GS. Without weapon swapping to prop up GS, it was ~17% behind in Blood’s brief tests.

Its important not to twist the outcome of the thread: We don’t want new rangers to point to this thread and say “look, GS is okay for damage now, I can run GS/Longbow in the dungeon and contribute to within a negligible amount of my full potential” because that absolutely isnt true, and we don’t want to perpetuate the idea that we don’t know what we’re doing. GS without being double melee is way behind.

• If you want to run max dps, you need 1h sword.
• If you want to run a ranged weapon swap, 1h sword is going to be moderately more dps than GS.
• If you want to run GS to its full potential because reasons, you need to be double melee.
• If you want to run GS in a dungeon, just be able to articulate the good reasons to use it: 1h sword can prevent you from stacking, 1h sword can prevent you from dodging, and GS utilities like block and swoop are better for cheesing boss mechanics and skipping areas.

Just don’t go into a dungeon and when asked by some braindead warrior “Y U no sword?” respond with “Big sword does basically same damage.”

Either way, I stated 11% under non ideal circumstances. I did also state 10-20% in my previous post and I stand by that as not being noticable in all but the best case scenarios, which are hardly ever met.

I routinely slot in my PS warrior that has some knights gear into “zerker only” speed runs, link my zerker gear when asked and nobody ever notices a damage reduction, is at least a 20% damage drop over zerker. I do it because it makes me laugh at the elitist fools because they cannot even tell. 20% drop for me is 4% reduction for the party, but nobody notices as they are always at 25 might when in combat. That and people are mostly just clueless sheep that follow the meta because someone told them it matters.

If someone was in a speed run but not using a MH Sword, I couldn’t care less, the time difference for completion is not at all noticeable. If a run took 10mins at best and someone took 20% less damage, time wise, that will end up being less than 30s added. Who cares, really? Unless you are trying for timed runs and are with a very experienced group it makes no difference and is not noticeable at all.

TheFantasticGman.9451:

Zenith.7301:

Prophet.1584:

GS is perfectly viable and the dps loss is negligible at best since the last patch. it would still be a good idea to learn sword andh ow to play within the bounds of how it works. use gs in situations where the leap could kill you like harpy fractal. dagger oh evades break the leap animation so you could use that until you’re used to it. and turn off auto attack.

The DPS difference is not negligible. Stop this myth.

It’s a convenient weapon to use over 1h sword, but it’s a notable DPS loss.

It is easy to tell in parties if everyone is zerk or not or that every one is putting on max DPS or not. Sadly, it’s still not worth bringing a Ranger into high levels. Until the 100% of the DPS is given to the Ranger and it brings more utilities. Right now I do like some pug zerk parties 2 ele, 1 guard, 1 ea ps war, 1 thief… but everyone has to be on point, but it does allow for some forgiveness… maybe swap the thief for a mes because time warp.

I’ve done scale 50 fractals with none of the above professions, and they’ve been smoother than most of the “zerk meta DPS” pugs I’ve been in. I’ll take an experienced player over a zerk meta bot any day, regardless of his profession.

Quarktastic.1027:

TheFantasticGman.9451:

Zenith.7301:

Prophet.1584:

GS is perfectly viable and the dps loss is negligible at best since the last patch. it would still be a good idea to learn sword andh ow to play within the bounds of how it works. use gs in situations where the leap could kill you like harpy fractal. dagger oh evades break the leap animation so you could use that until you’re used to it. and turn off auto attack.

The DPS difference is not negligible. Stop this myth.

It’s a convenient weapon to use over 1h sword, but it’s a notable DPS loss.

It is easy to tell in parties if everyone is zerk or not or that every one is putting on max DPS or not. Sadly, it’s still not worth bringing a Ranger into high levels. Until the 100% of the DPS is given to the Ranger and it brings more utilities. Right now I do like some pug zerk parties 2 ele, 1 guard, 1 ea ps war, 1 thief… but everyone has to be on point, but it does allow for some forgiveness… maybe swap the thief for a mes because time warp.

I’ve done scale 50 fractals with none of the above professions, and they’ve been smoother than most of the “zerk meta DPS” pugs I’ve been in. I’ll take an experienced player over a zerk meta bot any day, regardless of his profession.

Nobody’s asking you to choose between either, a false dichotomy. Why not take an experienced zerker, who’s both?

People are not telling you to run zerker to be mean. It just works, you are really hurting yourself by not doing so.

And now if you hate zerker you even have the sinister condi spec options for ranger, guardian, and engineer.

So it’s no longer a bias against condi, just the clerics/shaman/pvt people. And this is not a hatred for people who like those playstyles, it’s just that Anet needs to find a way to make those playstyles/stats relevant. They’re just a liability now and it’s kinda selfish to force that liability on the group.

It’s like going into a MOBA ranked match and purposely choosing a hero and build completely counterproductive to the goals of your team.

Zenith.7301:

Quarktastic.1027:

TheFantasticGman.9451:

Zenith.7301:

Prophet.1584:

GS is perfectly viable and the dps loss is negligible at best since the last patch. it would still be a good idea to learn sword andh ow to play within the bounds of how it works. use gs in situations where the leap could kill you like harpy fractal. dagger oh evades break the leap animation so you could use that until you’re used to it. and turn off auto attack.

The DPS difference is not negligible. Stop this myth.

It’s a convenient weapon to use over 1h sword, but it’s a notable DPS loss.

It is easy to tell in parties if everyone is zerk or not or that every one is putting on max DPS or not. Sadly, it’s still not worth bringing a Ranger into high levels. Until the 100% of the DPS is given to the Ranger and it brings more utilities. Right now I do like some pug zerk parties 2 ele, 1 guard, 1 ea ps war, 1 thief… but everyone has to be on point, but it does allow for some forgiveness… maybe swap the thief for a mes because time warp.

I’ve done scale 50 fractals with none of the above professions, and they’ve been smoother than most of the “zerk meta DPS” pugs I’ve been in. I’ll take an experienced player over a zerk meta bot any day, regardless of his profession.

Nobody’s asking you to choose between either, a false dichotomy. Why not take an experienced zerker, who’s both?

People are not telling you to run zerker to be mean. It just works, you are really hurting yourself by not doing so.

And now if you hate zerker you even have the sinister condi spec options for ranger, guardian, and engineer.

So it’s no longer a bias against condi, just the clerics/shaman/pvt people. And this is not a hatred for people who like those playstyles, it’s just that Anet needs to find a way to make those playstyles/stats relevant. They’re just a liability now and it’s kinda selfish to force that liability on the group.

It’s like going into a MOBA ranked match and purposely choosing a hero and build completely counterproductive to the goals of your team.

I don’t hate the builds or the professions, I hate the people who play them. I run a zerker ranger myself, and I enjoy it. My guardian is also mostly zerker, though I’ve always been demonstrably terrible at playing guardian, so I haven’t updated his gear in a while.

Most zerk meta puglings I encounter have been truly terrible players. Whenever something goes wrong for whatever reason, (the stack breaks, the ice bow fails to land a deep freeze etc.) it usually results in a wipe. I feel like the zerk meta has led to situations where encounters are over so quickly no one bothers to learn the mechanics of the fight, or how to dodge properly.

Edit:

To clarify: my usage of the term zerk meta bot was referring to players who copy these builds from metabattle and/or just parrot whatever the top speed run players are playing, and expect to just /faceroll everything and win. You’ll encounter a lot of these players in LFG.

Sounds like you’ve had quite the bad luck then as my experience isn’t close to yours. Generally most I run with are mostly zerk or all zerk in the 50s. Luck of the draw I guess.

TheFantasticGman.9451:

Sounds like you’ve had quite the bad luck then as my experience isn’t close to yours. Generally most I run with are mostly zerk or all zerk in the 50s. Luck of the draw I guess.

I have all the bad luck it seems. every time I pug a fractal and wind up rolling the volcano or Mai Trin, I die a little inside…because I know my fractal run just turned into a 2 hour affair.

Man… That is bad. Indeed sorry to hear.

To be honest I’ve had worse experience with cleric staff guardians. Just did a fractal 50 cliffside where the guardian was not using the greatsword pull on the cultists near the seal on the final archdiviner encounter; he was just individually killing each one.

A zerker pug might be bad and die occassionally, but he did damage while he was up.

A cleric/pvt guy still often dies in my experience and contributes virtually nothing.

what you should be running in dungeons is S/A+GS. swap to GS for the burst and back to sword for the AA. This would be other than cases where range is necessary or sword AA would get you killed. but like it’s been said many times in this thread GS is viable, run it if you want to, if some bad group kicks you for running GS make your own.