Guild Wars 2

Sandrox.9524:

X Factor.2641:

You didn’t offend me but this is a good lesson that you “can’t judge a book by it’s cover”. I roam in wvw, it’s all I do really when I’m not cmd-ing and, while I have noticed the increased power handed to the lb rangers… all it really does it make it more fun to fight and inevitably kill them.

Rangers are amazing in pve, no one denies that, and 1v1 they have always been pretty good at if you know what you’re doing. All the lb buff really does is make the Zerg runners strong enough to have an impact on the zerg… but even as a cmd you end up finding ways to counter their proposed “OP-ness”.

While I agree with you that accepting bigger challenge is nice and all,When these things break the game, for example,did a tpvp match yday against 4 rangers and guard we were beaten and me and the thief always got picked out by RF’s cause you dodge/avoid one RF you get another one on you and dont let me talk about when they all RFing at you,I dont want this to continue.

Well of course if you go up against a team of lb machine gun rangers you’re going to have a bad day, but that’s the same for just about any class. You’d also be having a bad day if you went up against a team of Stun-lock Warriors or Shatter Mesmers or even a team of Stealth Thieves. That’s not a very good foundation of argument because of course that’d be unfair as it would with any other class.

LughLongArm.5460:

sums up the post patch ranger discussion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXsE5TMN1-M
whats more there is to add?

This is fantastic too.

X Factor.2641:

Sandrox.9524:

X Factor.2641:

You didn’t offend me but this is a good lesson that you “can’t judge a book by it’s cover”. I roam in wvw, it’s all I do really when I’m not cmd-ing and, while I have noticed the increased power handed to the lb rangers… all it really does it make it more fun to fight and inevitably kill them.

Rangers are amazing in pve, no one denies that, and 1v1 they have always been pretty good at if you know what you’re doing. All the lb buff really does is make the Zerg runners strong enough to have an impact on the zerg… but even as a cmd you end up finding ways to counter their proposed “OP-ness”.

While I agree with you that accepting bigger challenge is nice and all,When these things break the game, for example,did a tpvp match yday against 4 rangers and guard we were beaten and me and the thief always got picked out by RF’s cause you dodge/avoid one RF you get another one on you and dont let me talk about when they all RFing at you,I dont want this to continue.

Well of course if you go up against a team of lb machine gun rangers you’re going to have a bad day, but that’s the same for just about any class. You’d also be having a bad day if you went up against a team of Stun-lock Warriors or Shatter Mesmers or even a team of Stealth Thieves. That’s not a very good foundation of argument because of course that’d be unfair as it would with any other class.

I second that.The only possible thing is the warriors,but they got nerfed and now it is way easier(still formidable).

UnitedChaos.8364:

jcbroe.4329:

I think everybody needs to step back, take a moment, and watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w

And remember that Rapid Fire, based on the video, IS the E. Honda slap.

This is the best thing ever posted. If only more players had this mentality.

This… is good

Sandrox.9524:

X Factor.2641:

Well of course if you go up against a team of lb machine gun rangers you’re going to have a bad day, but that’s the same for just about any class. You’d also be having a bad day if you went up against a team of Stun-lock Warriors or Shatter Mesmers or even a team of Stealth Thieves. That’s not a very good foundation of argument because of course that’d be unfair as it would with any other class.

I second that.The only possible thing is the warriors,but they got nerfed and now it is way easier(still formidable).

IMO if you had a guard or an ele in your party… after seeing that the other party consisted of all rangers (for the most part minus the warrior you mentioned) I have no idea why they didn’t pop Wall of Reflection or Magnetic Aura.

It’s things like these that you need to think about. Let me give you a quick rundown on what a ranger is going to do if they’re running Machine Gun Build (MG)…

First they’ll spend the first few seconds of the fight buffing up, likely with Rampage as One and maybe even Quickening Zephyr if they’re feeling extra speedy. Then they’ll RF you. If you haven’t given up on closing the distance they’ll knock you back. You’ll try and close the distance and they’ll stealth somewhere else where they can RF you again.

Almost every kiddie I’ve ran into roaming follows this simple pattern. Once you realize that’s the “blueprint” of their playstyle (obviously there are some variations and they might improvise if they aren’t completely brain dead zombies following the meta) it’s not terrible to counter.

For guard or ele, like I mentioned, when you see a ranger buffing up you know RF is coming soon so that would be a good time to pop WoR or Magnetic Aura. After RF is over you close the distance and wait to dodge roll forward until they try and knock you back. That is two wasted skills for the ranger right off the bat. Only thing they can do left is stealth and what do we all do during our enemy’s stealth? Swing madly at the air until they pop up somewhere else. MG rangers are only going to have 3s of stealth so once they pop up again you should have some time to close the distance and get a few hits in again before they pop RF again which you will have at least one if not two dodge rolls at your disposal.

The only real game changing variation is if they have Entangle instead of RaO which you’ll be able to tell right away when they buff up if they have it or not. If they Entangle you (it’s only 5s now) and if you get stuck (because it is possible to evade), pop a heal skill and be ready to roll right out of it because they’ll use that to RF you while you’re immobile.

Every skill for the ranger has a counter. Just gotta figure out what it is.

Honestly, a group of Warriors could be just as devastating … while contesting the point. Ever tried to dodge multiple burst skills? You eventually run out of dodges.

Now try a group of Mesmers. Sure, AOE down the clones as they apply conditions to you because of it.

Now try a group of Necromancers. Marks for days. Not squishy. And your boons are now conditions … which may get spread to your friends.

… and so on.

Stacking any class can do mean things. None of it is perfect though. Ranger is only “effective” (quotes for a reason) right now because some people haven’t learned how to play against it.

Many others have already adapted and are tearing apart the FotM Rangers that don’t have a clue how to actually play the class. The ones that are just excited because they shot someone that either (1) sucks or (2) was fighting someone else and unable to deal with them at 1,500 range plinking at them

A thread QQing about Rangers…in WvW…Well slap me twice and call me Sally. Rangers are not OP. Period. Rangers have always been good, solid, or strong in PvP and weak in Team PvE or WvW. Our pet mechanics are still atrocious. Pets are as bad now as they were in 2011 when I played the demo of the game at ComiCon in San Diego.

Also Original Poster: referring to a game mechanic as cancer is disgusting. Can we please stop using that word to describe things? It does a terrible disservice to the people actually suffering from it.

Ranger is no more a threat than an Ele or any other DPS class. They are just a threat in WvW now. They are finally able to hold their own. It’s fine if you are of the opinion that they are too strong. It doesn’t mean they actually are.

100% agree on the mis-use of the cancer word. if people ever suffered (either personally or through relatives/friends) because of it they’d learn better than to fling the word on everything.

honestly i’d rather have that censored from the forum rather than other silly words, nobody ever uses that word in a meaningful way anyway on the forums.

would it be at all possible to mail anet or someone about thinking about it?

Sebrent.3625:

Honestly, a group of Warriors could be just as devastating … while contesting the point. Ever tried to dodge multiple burst skills? You eventually run out of dodges.

Now try a group of Mesmers. Sure, AOE down the clones as they apply conditions to you because of it.

Now try a group of Necromancers. Marks for days. Not squishy. And your boons are now conditions … which may get spread to your friends.

… and so on.

Stacking any class can do mean things. None of it is perfect though. Ranger is only “effective” (quotes for a reason) right now because some people haven’t learned how to play against it.

Many others have already adapted and are tearing apart the FotM Rangers that don’t have a clue how to actually play the class. The ones that are just excited because they shot someone that either (1) sucks or (2) was fighting someone else and unable to deal with them at 1,500 range plinking at them

Think of your team combustion,when you have like mesmer,thief,2x warriors and guard. 5 mesmers wouldnt do anything if the thief player knows how to play it decent.
5 warriors I said that I agree but anet nerfed them with the burst skills.the other group that I dont know what will happen is 5 enigneers lol but 5 thieves,mesmers or necros are easy to handle(ofc all depends on skill). but 5 rangers…you dont need skill just get 2 rangers to a point where bunker is and he is dead..get one ranger against the thief and assuming the ranger is not a 1/2 brain kitten,he will win the fight easly,same goes for mesmer.

FranzM.1298:

I don’t know if anyone already suggest it, but wouldn’t the easy fix be to make Rapid Fire a rooted skill? Like Barrage? I don’t find Rapid Fire overpowered at all though.

Also take into account that Rapid Fire is a projectile of all things.

What will balance this skill is->make it a 15 sec cooldown traited

Sandrox.9524:

FranzM.1298:

I don’t know if anyone already suggest it, but wouldn’t the easy fix be to make Rapid Fire a rooted skill? Like Barrage? I don’t find Rapid Fire overpowered at all though.

Also take into account that Rapid Fire is a projectile of all things.

What will balance this skill is->make it a 15 sec cooldown traited

Haha I liked your other idea before you edited it. Make it an elite skill… You should definitely be in charge of balancing this game lol

IF (that’s a big if…) the skill itself is really ‘overpowered’ the more logical solution would be to simply reduce its damage by 10% and make it closer to what a Warrior can do with volley.

I agree with what Chrispy said earlier (or in another thread? I can’t keep track) that the larger problem really is Signet of the Wild. Another poster suggested simply changing it to 10% for the Ranger and 25% for the pet. This in conjunction with making it instant cast so the class has access to an instant stabilty seems reasonable to me and would likely fix a large number of complaints people have.

It’s also worth mentioning that from what I’ve seen, the status of the class hasn’t improved that much. I realize the patch has only been out a week, but I had about 3 GvGs and watched about 5 others over the past week and didn’t see but 2 Rangers (on the same team, and they were obliterated as I’ve come to expect). I honestly was expecting someone to bring in a group of 5+ on the first night given their performance in WvW.

It’s the same in PvP from what I’ve read (I’m not much of a PvPer). They’re very common in low rank soloQ but still aren’t being noticed at mid to upper levels or on teams.

Has anyone’s personal experiences shown otherwise?

It’s not really a status thing, LB ranger is not a balanced build. Many other classes can go full berserker and still bring tons of condi removal, party support, self sustain, etc. LB can’t go berserker and basically bring any of that. That’s a little bit of an exaggeration, but you get the idea. An all or nothing build is awfully hard to pull off in PvP because if you wind up with the “nothing” your team is screwed.

There is however a much more balanced bunkery beastmaster ranger in the ToG finals.

I agree, but that’s also my concern. With the change to RF finally giving the class some much needed burst, is ANet done paying attention to us for 2 years?

I doubt for two years. But anyway, the focus is unnecessarily on RF when things like signets, mainhand axe, and pet traits are where the real excitement is. Those things are huuuge for PvP.

IMO, all those things had a much larger impact on condi builds which I don’t really enjoy. Hoping ANet continues to push for power Rangers and improving group utility in WvW.

Have to agree with the OP on this. These LB buffs do absolutely nothing to add skill or intrigue to the game. It’s typical ANET b.s.—give a suffering class a one-shot wonder move/trait and call it “balance.” We saw this happen to Mesmers with the PU changes, Warriors with the healing sig changes, etc.

This is a dangerous and reckless “balance” philosophy. It endangers the future of this game as any kind of serious PVP contender, endangers the Ranger class in general, and will cause many Rangers to use this cheese build without understanding their class, thereby affecting the Ranger community as a whole.

Warrior Healing Signet? It loves my Ranger’s poison.

PU Mesmer? They love my Ranger’s pet … traps too … poison and other conditions as well.

Longbow Rangers? They are even easier to kill than PU Mesmers and Warriors. I’m much more wary facing a Mesmer/Warrior than I am a longbow Ranger … perhaps when it stops being FotM and most of the Rangers return to those who know what they are doing, I’ll return to being wary of Rangers. As it is right now … I’m wary of them only as far as being wary of being 2v1’d … but that’s no change.

If rangers counter Warrs and Mesmers, but Rangers are easier to kill than both of those classes, then I’d LOVE to know what amazing class you play.

Still, I’m not convinced you know what you’re talking about. Warriors have essentially been neutered by the Adren nerf. No one is afraid of them anymore (except you).

The reason rapid fire is OP is because if you don’t have block or reflect you need to double dodge to avoid damage where other big damage skills can be evaded in one dodge. They should make rapid fire miss all subsequent shots after an opponent evades, instead of dealing 6k damage to the face as soon as the evasion frames end.

Many other classes also have other high damage attacks to chain after their burst skill. Longbow doesn’t.

So sad this topic is still going. I thought I would have ended it with the youtube link and the E. Honda remark. Some people just can’t be reasoned with even when looking at factual information.

some of them just can’t be Reasoned with because they think it takes a Double dodge to stop a 2.5sec skill, don’;t dodge away from them Dodge Closer.

the youtube link i posted with the guy explaining how to fight Good Lb rangers , even i Agree you give Ranger Ground his going to use it to its max Effectiviness and its going to take you even longer to close that ground if you keep giving the Ranger the chance to Open ground he will kill you without even having to swap to his combat set and in my Personal Experiance Many Lb ranger use the Melee set as a Means of Survival and Attack, but it can’t do both , if im being heavly pressured im forced to use it as a Defensive measure to get the hell out of there and open ground again (unless i think i can kill you with the Skill i have off cool-down like Sword 3 and my off-hand.)

if you realy have to run away because the Zerg is moving on use a Blink, leap or dash type skill and get the kitten out of there and use Terrain as LoS blocking while you Dash /port/leap away then the LB won’t ever touch you.

Javonovich.5280:

This is a dangerous and reckless “balance” philosophy. It endangers the future of this game as any kind of serious PVP contender, endangers the Ranger class in general, and will cause many Rangers to use this cheese build without understanding their class, thereby affecting the Ranger community as a whole.

You mean unlike the last 2 years when we just stuck to spirit and/or regen bunker cheese that worked on outlasting rather than outplaying the opponent?

Jim Hunter.6821:

Sandrox.9524:

FranzM.1298:

I don’t know if anyone already suggest it, but wouldn’t the easy fix be to make Rapid Fire a rooted skill? Like Barrage? I don’t find Rapid Fire overpowered at all though.

Also take into account that Rapid Fire is a projectile of all things.

What will balance this skill is->make it a 15 sec cooldown traited

Haha I liked your other idea before you edited it. Make it an elite skill… You should definitely be in charge of balancing this game lol

Yea,it was compeletly stupid I agree :P

Fade.5904, I checked you up in both NA/EU Team Q/ Solo Q, you’re not in either of those 1000.

I’m not saying the “placement” of leaderboard is accurate, but if you are not even showing up on that easy-to-get-in 1000, it means you very rarely/ never play competitively in pvp at all. (It is so easy to get in if you do play a few of rank matche)

0/10 troll, your comments should be ignored.

@Javonovich.5280:
I didn’t say Ranger hard counters them, but Ranger is far from helpless against them and does have methods for dealing with both those builds … as I pointed out. Reading comprehension ftw.

Cam Ron.4170:
After you dodge a Rapid Fire, what do you need to dodge from a longbow for the next 8 to 10 seconds? Auto-attacks?

If they switch weapons, you just forced them out of the “OP” weapon you’re so bothered by for 9+ seconds.

Let me know when I can dodge roll twice against one Thief weapon set and not have to dodge anything but auto-attacks (backstab isn’t AA btw) for 8 to 10 seconds.

Sebrent.3625:

@Javonovich.5280:
I didn’t say Ranger hard counters them, but Ranger is far from helpless against them and does have methods for dealing with both those builds … as I pointed out. Reading comprehension ftw.

Cam Ron.4170:
After you dodge a Rapid Fire, what do you need to dodge from a longbow for the next 8 to 10 seconds? Auto-attacks?

If they switch weapons, you just forced them out of the “OP” weapon you’re so bothered by for 9+ seconds.

Let me know when I can dodge roll twice against one Thief weapon set and not have to dodge anything but auto-attacks (backstab isn’t AA btw) for 8 to 10 seconds.

You must be trolling.

Reading comp, indeed. I never stated in my original post whether Rangers could or could not handle Warrs or Mesmers. I stated that ANET’s balance philosophy ruined rangers LIKE it ruined Mesmers and Warriors.

Then you ranted about counters. Why? I have no idea.

In my reply I never even said “hard counter,” so I have no idea what you’re talking about. I only followed what you said: Mesmers and Warriors are easy to beat. LB Rangers are even easier. So… according to which class?

Substance E,

Not sure what you’re getting at because I agree completely. I even drew an analogy to “Mesmers with the PU changes” and “Warriors with the healing sig changes.” Bunkers fit in there, too, along with turret engins, some ele builds, etc. In wvw it’s not so bad, but in spvp, it’s a nightmare. This is partially because of the fact that we have no good game modes, so “balance” is balanced around the Capture the Point maps. If we had other game modes, this discussion would be a lot different.

Cam Ron.4170:

The reason rapid fire is OP is because if you don’t have block or reflect you need to double dodge to avoid damage where other big damage skills can be evaded in one dodge. They should make rapid fire miss all subsequent shots after an opponent evades, instead of dealing 6k damage to the face as soon as the evasion frames end.

You don’t need to double dodge…

Javonovich.5280: This is simple, but I’ll walk you through it as that is apparently necessary.

Here you mention how the Ranger changes don’t add any skill or intrigue to the game and that they aren’t “balanced”. You reference Warrior Healing Signet and PU Mesmer as other instances of changes you feel are like this.

Javonovich.5280:

Have to agree with the OP on this. These LB buffs do absolutely nothing to add skill or intrigue to the game. It’s typical ANET b.s.—give a suffering class a one-shot wonder move/trait and call it “balance.” We saw this happen to Mesmers with the PU changes, Warriors with the healing sig changes, etc.

Here I mention how I don’t think Healing Signet and PU Mesmer are as powerful as people make them out to be, and how I think that Longbow Rangers are even easier to deal with.

Warrior Healing Signet? It loves my Ranger’s poison.

PU Mesmer? They love my Ranger’s pet … traps too … poison and other conditions as well.

Longbow Rangers? They are even easier to kill than PU Mesmers and Warriors. I’m much more wary facing a Mesmer/Warrior than I am a longbow Ranger

Also, note that when I talk about Ranger capabilities that help handle Healing Signet and PU Mesmers, I mention poison, traps, etc. … not longbow.

You then reply that you somehow read that has “Rangers counter Warriors and Mesmers, but are easier to kill than both of those classes” … and that you think warriors have been neutered /eyeroll

Remember how I noted using Poison, Traps, etc. earlier against Healing Signet and PU Mesmers? Not longbow… How I only mentioned longbow in how I found the new longbow Rangers easier to kill?

If rangers counter Warrs and Mesmers, but Rangers are easier to kill than both of those classes, then I’d LOVE to know what amazing class you play.

Still, I’m not convinced you know what you’re talking about. Warriors have essentially been neutered by the Adren nerf. No one is afraid of them anymore (except you).

I then mention that I never said that Ranger counters Warrior/Mesmer … though if we look at your post … you used that exact word when you said “If rangers counter Warrs and Mesmers”

@Javonovich.5280:
I didn’t say Ranger hard counters them, but Ranger is far from helpless against them and does have methods for dealing with both those builds … as I pointed out. Reading comprehension ftw.

Now you come back saying that you never said Ranger couldn’t handle them … neither did I.

Now you come back saying that you don’t know why I mentioned counters … you mentioned counters in your post.

Very simple. Very straightforward.

That aside, I do agree that having additional game modes would change the feel for what is/isn’t powerful … though then people would just argue that X is powerful because in game mode A while others would argue it isn’t because of game mode B.

Solandri.9640:

McFribble.2349:

The difference here is that Condition cleanse helps against almost every class in the game. Reflect works well against LB Rangers. If you can’t see the differences here, I don’t know what to tell you. The ENTIRE kittenING GAME shouldn’t have to adapt itself around one class. That is a sign that one class is doing something it probably shouldn’t be doing.

Sigh. This is why we can’t have good things.

The problem isn’t everyone having to adapt themselves around one class. The problem is everyone has been able to ignore that one class for so long. Suddenly that class is buffed so that the abilities it brings to the game now make a difference, and people are in shock because they can’t ignore it anymore.

Basically, anything added to a game which forces you to adapt is a good thing. That’s telling you Anet has successfully added a new and different challenge or mechanic for you learn to overcome. It’s increased the breadth of the game.

You complain that Reflect only works well against LB rangers. That’s probably a valid complaint, but then you incorrectly conclude that it’s a reason to nerf rangers. The correct conclusion is that Anet needs to add more skills to other classes which require reflect to defend against, thus making it equally as important to carry reflect as it is to carry a condition cleanse. That is balance. What’s the point of even having reflect in the game if you never need to carry it because all builds vulnerable to it are non-threatening and thus can be ignored?

As I said in another thread, balance isn’t “I can run around with my preferred build and not have to worry about anything because my build can defend against anything.” That is horribly unbalanced. Balance is “My build has strong defense against certain things but not others, so I have to be careful to play to my strengths and avoid situations which exploit my weaknesses.” Rock, paper, scissors would be a stupid game if scissors were so weak paper could always ignore them.

Again, you are asking Anet and the entire game to balance itself around Rangers. You never, EVER “balance” out something OP by making everything else just as stupidly good. That is how you BREAK your game beyond repair. Reflect already plays key roles in PvE content, and is justified for being in the game. But you can’t change 7 other classes to be heavily countered with reflect just so your special snowflake Ranger can keep his mobile/ranged Hundred Blades. Sorry, but that train of logic is absurd.

No one ignores Rangers before, no matter how much you want to say otherwise. They may not have been priority #1 or 2 (since LONG RANGE MOBILE DAMAGE shouldn’t be dropping players in a matter of seconds), but they sure as hell weren’t ignored, let alone felt when facing against one.

And for anyone who wanted a video of Rangers 1v1ing players to death with little trouble, here you go:

jcbroe.4329:

So sad this topic is still going. I thought I would have ended it with the youtube link and the E. Honda remark. Some people just can’t be reasoned with even when looking at factual information.

Your first mistake was linking those idiots Extra Credit as a reliable source of info. Your second mistake is assuming what the video has to say is even true. Your third mistake was to assume you had some sort of ace to stop all discussions about a controversial change to a class that now makes it easier to play than ALMOST anything in the game (Ham/Bow i still scrubbier, but not by much).

Its hilarious how the risk/reward ratio has been broken in favor of rangers after patch. No profession should be able to spam KBs (Point Blank Shot) from a safe 1200 distance or have so much firepower with a ranged weapon. For trollish classes like mesmers and thieves it might not be such an issue but when you play a melee warrior or guardian that doesn’t use a lame bunker build you literally have no chance of defending yourself or even reaching the ranger (yes they are glassy but you need to reach them first and no, reflects are often not enough to kill the ranger).

A turret engi and a ranger hidden somewhere safe on high ground is the new meta for “do not even bother to decap”. I get it, rangers should be masters of ranged weapons but adding so much power to longbow was a clear attempt to give rangers their absolute faceroll meta just they just quit complaining about how they are not viable. But the problem is that was mostly for PvE. sPvP was just collateral damage. One more reason why sPvP and PvE skills need to get separated.

I am gonna have to start referring to most of you as Jon Snow, because you know nothing.

Eurantien.4632:

I am gonna have to start referring to most of you as Jon Snow, because you know nothing.

Then teach us please oh wise one.

PBS can be spammed at 1200 range? News to me…

If Volley’s damage isn’t excessive, why is Rapid Fire’s? Fully traited, there’s only about a 10% gap between the 2 skills. Both have the same channel time, the same cooldown, and the same trait to reduce the cooldown. Both gain similar damage from vulnerability, though rifle requires a second skill to provide it. If damage is legitimately an issue, the problem isn’t from the skill.

Atherakhia.4086:

If Volley’s damage isn’t excessive, why is Rapid Fire’s? Fully traited, there’s only about a 10% gap between the 2 skills. Both have the same channel time, the same cooldown, and the same trait to reduce the cooldown. Both gain similar damage from vulnerability, though rifle requires a second skill to provide it. If damage is legitimately an issue, the problem isn’t from the skill.

The fact that you need to combine two of the Warrior’s rifle skills alone (and assuming both hit to fully benefit for them) AND still doesn’t add up to the same amount of damage should be a tall tell sign that RF is pretty ridiculous…

Sarision.6347:

PBS can be spammed at 1200 range? News to me…

Yes if you trait Eagle Eye (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Eagle_Eye) you get 1200 range for PBS and a 5% damage boost.

Backstab is therefore OP because it takes a hammer warrior two AOE skills to deal more than the same damage.

The same with blurred frenzy and it provides distortion.

And any bomb on the ele tree.

And DS necro since its autoattacks turn into the highest-burst damage skills in the game on autos.

And big ol’ bomb.

Fun fact, actually. P/P thief using unload twice has better DPS and burst than RF ranger in the same exact time frame, and provides a team with more CC and overall utility.

… and Unload can be used more often … 5 initiative cost means it can be used at least once every 5 seconds … before any of the plethora of ways of gaining initiative.

DeceiverX.8361:

Fun fact, actually. P/P thief using unload twice has better DPS and burst than RF ranger in the same exact time frame, and provides a team with more CC and overall utility.

Yes but he has to come in melee range and therefore has a much more balanced risk/reward ratio from rangers which can do all that from a (very) safe distance.

McFribble.2349:

Atherakhia.4086:

If Volley’s damage isn’t excessive, why is Rapid Fire’s? Fully traited, there’s only about a 10% gap between the 2 skills. Both have the same channel time, the same cooldown, and the same trait to reduce the cooldown. Both gain similar damage from vulnerability, though rifle requires a second skill to provide it. If damage is legitimately an issue, the problem isn’t from the skill.

The fact that you need to combine two of the Warrior’s rifle skills alone (and assuming both hit to fully benefit for them) AND still doesn’t add up to the same amount of damage should be a tall tell sign that RF is pretty ridiculous…

Vulnerability is a condition and isn’t factored into DPS figures for any skill/class because they effect everyone equally. A rifle warrior shooting volley at the same target the Ranger is shooting will do 10% less damage than the Ranger.

If you want to split vulnerability off like it was in the past, that would actually result in even more damage for the Ranger, not less.

But is that your argument now? That RF’s damage isn’t the problem, it’s the vulnerability it provides?

I’m sorry but I was not aware 1000+ = 130.

If you LET your opponent get to you as P/P, that’s your problem. Hell, most classes have a really easy way to close the gap on LB rangers. They just refuse to in many instances. This game is overloaded with closers and has too few ways to open them imho. Thieves have an advantage in this regard due to having so much access to openers.

Unload is melee range?

• Unload has a base range of 900.
  • Unload can be traited to have a range of 1,050 via Ricochet which also gives its shots a 50% chance to bounce 3 times.
• Unload does its damage in 1.75 seconds instead of 2.5. A difference of 0.75s or 30% less.
• Unload can be used once every 5 seconds without any additional initiative gain. That is twice per untraited Rapid Fire.
  • You can also drastically increase initiative gain of a Thief build … much more than shaving 2 seconds off the Rapid Fire build… and such that the gains are immediate for more additional Unloads in a short period of time.
• Unload (and all Pistol attacks) can be traited to have a chance to Cripple on critical hits. Given that it hits 8 times, this is a high chance to cripple.

Now, having pointed these things out … no one is running around calling this OP (nor do I think they should).

holodoc.5748:

DeceiverX.8361:

Fun fact, actually. P/P thief using unload twice has better DPS and burst than RF ranger in the same exact time frame, and provides a team with more CC and overall utility.

Yes but he has to come in melee range and therefore has a much more balanced risk/reward ratio from rangers which can do all that from a (very) safe distance.

This is also a very difficult concept to qualify. The melee class is designed to be in melee range and was given the tools required of it to get targets into melee range and keep them there.

The Ranger class is a ranged class. It has tools designed to get targets at range and keep them there. Unfortunately, the number of tools available to Rangers is far less than the tools available to Thieves, Warriors, and Ele’s.

The only class that can actually argue the range (dis)advantage, is Guardians. And they’re a slow class by design.

There’s an immobilize + vuln stacker also built right into the #2 skill on P/P.

Longbow ranger is just fotm and statistically more people are dying to it because so many more people are playing it and thus getting kills with it.

There’s literally almost nothing OP about the skill itself.

The problem is, unload is so fast now, it can’t put out all the damage it use to do. It doesn’t give the time to get off one more burst because the initiative doesn’t have the time to recover for that last burst it use to have.

I’m not following your logic here with where the problem is.

The only change unload got was … Unload: Increased the speed of this skill by 20%.

So it hits faster. That doesn’t make it hit any less. In fact, that’s a DPS increase as same damage in less time means higher DPS.

If it is finishing quicker, that means it got that same damage as before out quicker so now you can AA (or something else) and then Unload again when you have enough initiative.

You’re still able to get out the same number of Unloads per second as before. If you weren’t restricted by Initiative, you’d be able to get more Unloads per second.

he basicly saying since upload is so fast now his INT isn’t regnerating fast enough to get two bursts in a chain compaired to pre patch.
Well then Anet basicly added a INT passive aka Hidden cooldown , you will have to wait till you have enough INT again.

rather than using two bursts in one chain .
that right there is your Risk vs reward.