Guild Wars 2

The problem with herald now is the boon rip fiesta. Spellbreaker and scourge

Kodiak.3281:

BlazeQ.1095:

Would group comps not help support the role as condi DPS?

Okay so when you’re looking at group comps you gotta look at what that person also brings to the group. In the case of the Renegade, that’s unfortunately very little. You’re going to need to be brought into a dual Guardian group (for stab). But lets break down what Kalla can do for a team:

1. Share Might stacks (Citadel Order). Herald already did this, but also provided a lot of other boons as well. More importantly, since you gotta be in a Dual Guardian group anyways chances are extremely likely they will be running dual staff for might stacks before an engage anyways.

2. Provides Alacrity (Citadel Order). This isn’t a bad add, and with the right Trait you’re looking at a 6s of Alacrity every 20s which isn’t bad at all. This is arguably one of the better uses for Kalla’s trait line.

That’s it (unique to Kalla).

Now before you protest, understand most of the wells are useless. Almost all the benefits of Wells will be negated by hard bombs (which will kill the spirits, already tested) or by the high mobility WvW requires (you’re out of their wells/effects). So any benefits those could add in a group fight are pretty much negated by the fact they can die and be CC’d which also negate their effects.

So this means you wouldn’t take wells and you wouldn’t take shortbow even if you want to do Condi. At that point the trait line and Citadel Orders directly compete with Herald trait line and Natural Resonance and all things considered Herald is just vastly superior for WvW. It gives the Revenant additional stability, shares might stacks with allies, and adds to boon durations which boons kinda make the WvW world go ’round.

For PvE this is an entirely other matter and Renegade has a clear seat at the table as a viable Herald alternative for a PvE condition focused Revenant rocking Corruption, Kalla and Destruction/Invocation. Wells being obliterated is less of a concern and they have seemingly good set of uses.

Ran it myself this weekend in a mid-line/back-line DPS group Burn guard, 2 Necro’s, Ele, Renegade. Wells worked much better than I expected. However Placement is key. All skills were situational. Darkrazor’s Daring seemed to be one of the better skills with the AOE Interrupts. Certain sigils worked very with with this skill. Others were very lack luster and offered little to no support to our zerg group.

Roaming/small group performance was interesting, but the Bleed Damage from the bow was very poor IMO. Did not provide and kind of real pressure at all, and I seemed to be focused last in our group as I was not a real threat at range. Loved how the bow skills an animations worked, but cast times were way to slow, and bleed ticks even with 100% bleed duration’s were very weak.

I almost never post on the forums, but really hope Anet sees how much fixing Renegade needs.

TL:DR

Unusable for Pvp.
No block, no evade, no stab, no mobility, no condi cleanse/resistance on an entire trait-line, legendary stance, and weapon set with low/inconsistent damage, no burst, and low range. Oh, and the stunbreak is on the heal.

Unusable for WvW.
Utilities can be cc’d, have low health, and are immobile. Sb is worse than hammer in every way. Taking Kalla over any other stance means losing resistance (Mallyx), evades/mobility (Shiro), projectile hate/condi cleanse (Ventari), or condi cleanse/group stab and defense (Jalis)

Possibly usuable in PVE:
Once the renegade elite stops bugging out and actually applies to every hit made it might be a big enough dps increase to let rev get raid slots. However, this would still reinforce the same garbage rev gameplay that’s plagued it for the past 2 years- Turn on X elite/skill, then sit and autoattack until you can switch stances and do it again.

End TL:DR

Summary

Renegade is a showcase of all the problems that Revenant has faced over the past 2 years, and at best it reinforces the garbage Rev gameplay that Revenant has been stuck with as well.

Plenty of people have pointed out the sad state of core Rev, and Renegade is no different. Bugged skills, non-existent condi cleanse, very low access to swiftness, and high energy costs that make too many skills rarely used since they compete with other better skills for a small energy pool. Once upon a time Rev skills were actually strong to make up for having both an energy cost and cooldown. Not anymore. Power Rev is a shell of what it was before, particularly in pvp, and remains so even while the other new elite specs get buffed damage to above what the old rev could do (I’m looking at you, Holosmith).

Rev’s gameplay, particularly in PVE, also remains in it’s boring state. High energy costs means swapping legendary stances off CD to actually remain relevant in a fight. Kalla pve will be the exact same as Mallyx and Jalis- Use your elite/hammers and then auto-attack until you can switch stances and do it again.

By trying to make Rev unique with the energy system they ended up making it have the most boring/limiting gameplay I’ve ever seen.

There have been plenty of suggestions by people more qualified than myself to fix this, but by looking at Renegade it seems that Anet is sticking with their failed vision of Rev. Theme > Functionality/Mechanics/QoL

Renegade Skills Review

Shortbow #1- The autoattack is decent. Similar damage to Ranger SB without the flanking req and also aoe. I don’t understand why Renegade’s auto has a cast time, but other than that I have no complaints. It’s a typical auto.

Shortbow #2- It’s a boring, stronger auto attack that also has the unique feature of being able to be dodged by having your opponent move in a straight line. I’ve had NPC’s completely dodge it just by walking towards me (or literally any direction). Another case of Theme > Functionality, which a lot of this weapon suffers from. Some players have been having problems with this skill being bugged/not firing.

Shortbow #3- The Dev’s said they didn’t want to make another shotgun skill so they made something else that’s completely worse for some reason. In order to get the most out of this skill, you first have to get all 7 arrows to fire. Then you have to get all 7 arrows to hit your target at a very specific range without anything else being in the way after both a cast time and travel time. If you get all 7 arrows to hit, you’re rewarded with mediocre damage that isn’t boosted by any Kalla traits (besides Fervor which obviously applies to all condis/crts).
Plenty of others have pointed out how bugged this skill is. Unless you have perfectly flat ground with no other characters in the way you will never fire all 7 arrows. Not to mention that I’ve had all 7 arrows fire at a stationary target and the target still isn’t hit with all 7 despite being at the end point of the skill.
Like SB2, the only way you will consistently hit with most of the attack is if your opponent is standing still for 2 seconds. Except this time they have to be at a perfect 900 range away. And even after hitting with the skill you’ll realize it wasn’t actually worth the energy, and you could have hit your cc’d opponent with an actually useful skill.

Perfect example of Theme > Functionality.

Shortbow #4- Not amazing, but not a terrible buggy mess like SB3. Burning is cool but isn’t boosted by any Rev traits. Castable while moving helps. I don’t understand the weird cast time/delay, but it’s still usable. Like the skills before, it is best used on a cc’d opponent. BUG- doesn’t track targets/fire behind you even when standing still (all hammer skills do. No reason for shortbow skills not to.)

Shortbow #5- Even though this skill is buggy and deals pathetic damage, I like it just because it helps support the rest of the shortbow skills. 2, 3, and 4 all need a target to be still in order to actually hit, and this skill is what let’s you do so. 2 sec KD on a 10 second cooldown. That’s where the positives end though.

-High cost (20 energy, higher than Hammer #5)
-Cast time and travel time are awkward
-Doesn’t actually reach 900 range
-Doesn’t track targets behind you while standing still.

Shortbow Overall- The visuals are nice, and it’s nice having a 900 range condi weapon, but other than that it’s completely underwhelming and unusable outside of PVE where it’s outclassed by any other rev weapon anyway.

As stated in the TLDR, it’s a 900 range weapon with no defense, no mobility, and no burst. Skills 2, 3, and 4 all require your opponent to stand still/be cc’d in order to deal it’s maximum mediocre damage. If you use SB 5 to set up for your other skills, you literally have no tools to keep someone off you outside of utilities, and the 20 energy cost means you won’t be able to pressure someone well even with the KD.

No burst, awkward cast times/skill delay, and no target following on 4 and 5 mean anyone in melee range will delete you unless you have Shiro and spend 60 energy to Riposte away and dodge.

The pseudo aoe is also a huge disappointment and frustrates me. At first glance the shortbow seems like an aoe-dps weapon. It’s really not.

SB2 isn’t aoe unless you take the pierce trait and the enemies are literally stacked on eachother.

SB3 is the same as SB2. Requires pierce and all enemies stacked at a perfect 900 range. Torment isn’t boosted by Kalla traits meaning Mallyx is necessary to actually dps with this.

SB 4 and SB 5 are decent. However, 5 has horrid power scaling, and both use burning which again isn’t boosted by any rev traits outside Fervor.

So for aoe dps you’re stuck with auto-ing and SB4.

Utilities

Going to go through these faster.

Breakrazor (Heal)- Garbage. Low healing that requires you to stand in a smallish aoe for a whopping 10 seconds. For some reason the stunbreak is on this skill as well, meaning if you cancel the heal it goes on full cd. For some reason Anet thinks Rev should have a glaring condi weakness while other classes have none, so instead of something useful like condi cleanse or resistance this skill gets -33% condi damage while standing in the small aoe.

Razorclaw- is obsolete as long as the elite exists. Both increase damage dealt each hit by party members, except the elite doesn’t have an ICD and is much, much stronger than Razorclaw. Plus the 25 energy cost is garbage for the damage gained even with perfect application.

Icerazor- literally has Ice in his name, shoots blue, icy looking projectiles and yet he deals vuln and cripple and not chill. What is this garbage Anet. The one time that Theme > Functionality would actually work in Rev’s favor you decide to screw theme and give us the two weakest conditions in the game. If this dealt chill it would actually have synergy with the Mallyx line.
The only positive is that it (when not bugged) stacks with Soucleave and can deal decent damage to one target if they stand still for over 6 seconds and you have 100 energy to start with. Which is never.

Darkrazor- One of the top 3 skills of this spec. Constant aoe daze works well in spvp. High energy cost means you should always use this over Icerazor and Razorclaw. Pray it doesn’t get cc’d.

Soulcleave- Could be strong. Promotes the same garbage gameplay in pve that Rev has had for forever. Toggle + auto attack until stance switch. Useless in pug spvp.

Utility Summary

Boring and bad. Darkrazor >> Icerazor. Soulcleave >> Razorclaw. Terrible heal. Promotes bad gameplay. CC’able and killable ai spirits. High energy costs.
No defense, no mobility, no condi cleanse. Unusable in spvp outside of Darkrazor and praying no one sees you. Unusable in WvW because of cc’able and killable spirits.

F Skills

F1- aoe might. Boring and not needed. How is this different from Herald?

F2- Flashy and nice visuals. Can’t reliably hit even stationary targets. Low damage unless you stack burning %, and even then it’s still low unless they purposefully move around inside the aoe and get hit multiple times.
Someone thought a 40 energy cost skill that deals less damage than a Mallyx UA (which also chills) was a good enough idea to put into the game. Holosmith gets kittenning unibeam while Rev spend 40 energy to deal less damage than one soulbeast maul, or one deadeye kneel4 from 1500 range.

F3 more alacrity. No one wants this. Alacrity is useless on rev when Anet has pigeonholed rev into autoattacking. Not to mention it’s only useful when traited and costs 30 energy with a small aoe. It’s a pve skill that’s useless for pve because it’s not worth spending energy on anything else but Soulcleave.

Traits

I’m tired, and not as worried about traits since Anet has an easier time changing traits than skills it seems. Someone else can go into more depth on traits if they want

For a condi spec, Kalla has little synergy with Mallyx outside of Fervor and SB3 torment. Which is sad.
Kalla has TWO traits that increase bleed duration, but only two SB skills that inflict bleed (one being the auto attack) and Razorclaw is pointless when Soulcleave exists.
Revenant has more burn skills than bleed, yet has two bleed traits. Fix this.

Grandmaster’s are boring and passive. F2 is already unreliable and terrible for the energy cost. Increased maximum Fervor stacks? Complete passive gameplay. More Alacrity and reduced condition damage? Alacrity is pointless on Rev as explained earlier and somehow Anet thinks reduced condi damage is a replacement for condi cleanse.

Why give Kalla high prot uptime with All for One when that’s literally what the Herald elite is for?

Conclusion

Please don’t let Revenant rot in the same problems that it has had for years, Anet. Some people still care about the class. I’ve read plenty of feedback from other players saying similar things. There’s no possible way Anet can’t see just how subpar Renegade is, how stifling the Revenant energy mechanic and “condi weakness” have become, and how bugged-filled this class is, right?

I apologize if this turned into a wall of text. I just hope Anet will take into account at least a little bit of the feedback.

the intentional “condi weakness” has to go, I agree.

Xolas.9781:

Utilities

Icerazor- literally has Ice in his name, shoots blue, icy looking projectiles and yet he deals vuln and cripple and not chill. What is this garbage Anet. The one time that Theme > Functionality would actually work in Rev’s favor you decide to screw theme and give us the two weakest conditions in the game. If this dealt chill it would actually have synergy with the Mallyx line.
The only positive is that it (when not bugged) stacks with Soucleave and can deal decent damage to one target if they stand still for over 6 seconds and you have 100 energy to start with. Which is never.

I have a feeling this originally was a chill, but this skill hits 20 times? If traited, and if they all hit, that’s 20 stacks of torment? that would be OP for sure.

I do feel like there was a lost opportunity for synergy with the torment on chill trait. 5 pulses on 5 enemies wouldn’t have been too terribly bad.

I don’t think so. The radius of all the spirits is already fairly small. It takes a single dodge and you’ll be out of it. Maybe you’ll eat a few hit with the chill but getting hit will all 20 hit? That would require a few hard CCs or maybe someone who’s brain dead that’s actually walking from one side of the radius to the other. And at best, you’ll likely aim to have it land dead center to get the most value from it. Looking at how renegade is as a whole, I’d be happy if icerazors ire applied chill. At least it would be worth the energy. AFAIK, its damage does not scale with your power so it’s basically useless for both power and condi.

BlazeQ.1095:

Xolas.9781:

Utilities

Icerazor- literally has Ice in his name, shoots blue, icy looking projectiles and yet he deals vuln and cripple and not chill. What is this garbage Anet. The one time that Theme > Functionality would actually work in Rev’s favor you decide to screw theme and give us the two weakest conditions in the game. If this dealt chill it would actually have synergy with the Mallyx line.
The only positive is that it (when not bugged) stacks with Soucleave and can deal decent damage to one target if they stand still for over 6 seconds and you have 100 energy to start with. Which is never.

I have a feeling this originally was a chill, but this skill hits 20 times? If traited, and if they all hit, that’s 20 stacks of torment? that would be OP for sure.

I do feel like there was a lost opportunity for synergy with the torment on chill trait. 5 pulses on 5 enemies wouldn’t have been too terribly bad.

It probably was and its 40 stacks of torment (2 per chill) but lets be honest. You spam ua a couple times (which you cant spam the kala skills) and you have over 50+ torment. And that is also assuming its only one target and every projectile hits.

When you talk about skill dont forget that it can be easily split between pvp and pve. And i think they can ever change number of hits on it.

Joxer.6024:

Norjena.5172:

In my opinion the bleeding should get replaced by torment, and it needs some chill or at least poison.

No..no..no…we need the bleeds from a pve standpoint to be more viable as torment is crap in raids really but on your other points, yea, ditto.

Since last patch torment does the same damage as bleeding vs stationary targets and spikes on mobile ones.

(0.06 * Condition Damage) + 22 damage per stack per second at level 80 for Bleeding and Stationary Torment

(0.09 * Condition Damage) + 31.8 damage per stack per second at level 80 for Torment while moving.

narcx.3570:

Joxer.6024:

Norjena.5172:

In my opinion the bleeding should get replaced by torment, and it needs some chill or at least poison.

No..no..no…we need the bleeds from a pve standpoint to be more viable as torment is crap in raids really but on your other points, yea, ditto.

Since last patch torment does the same damage as bleeding vs stationary targets and spikes on mobile ones.

(0.06 * Condition Damage) + 22 damage per stack per second at level 80 for Bleeding and Stationary Torment

(0.09 * Condition Damage) + 31.8 damage per stack per second at level 80 for Torment while moving.

Just coming back to Rev with hopes for the new elite. Cheers for that info!!