Guild Wars 2

Rising Dusk.2408:

A lot of forum specialists have heard the public’s cry for a weapon swap on Revenant and we’ve passed that along to the development team. I can’t promise they’ll add one, but I will say that in principle I agree with the premise; the Revenant needs the added customization and adaptation mid-combat that a weapon swap provides.

And did you represent those asking for other solutions rather than just plain weapon swap? There are just as many people asking here for a different solution than weapon swap.

skowcia.8257:

Already preorder and if they get weapon swap i will ask for a refund due to false advertising as revenant was the main reason why i bought HoT. I dont care about pve, not even a bit, and dragonhunter definitely doesnt justice 45e cost for me. Unlike many people here i been following news about revenant since january collecting scraps of datamined stuff and have seen it desing flaws back in the first beta while everyone else was screaming “revenant is op, rip everything else”.

Don’t give us that nonsense as if you are the only person here who has been following Revenant news and updates. People voiced non-OP criticism then, but people kept telling naysayers, “It’s not finished yet. Just wait. Just wait.” So we waited. We played. We voiced similar criticisms. But we were told, “It’s just the celestial gear. Just wait. Just wait.” So we waited. And with three of the four core legends out and a beta weekend with enough pre-purchasing people playing with berserker gear and finally getting a Revenant sub-forum, you should not be surprised at the wave of criticism coming now.

Lets also not forget that revenant is descripted as a brawler profession. Hes pretty much melee oriented like he was supposed to be. Ranged hammer is here in fact olny for a reason that some pve contest require ranged skills, and in this case all you have to do is equip it and bash stuff. Now its on dev head to give revenant a proper sustain so that they can survive in melee without any issues if you know how to play.

Go back and re-read those articles. Since you’ve been following so diligently and all-knowingly since January, I’m sure you know precisely those articles. The Revenant was NEVER described as a brawler profession. Only the Jalis Legend was described as a “brawler.” Polygon:

When a revenant calls on the power of Jalis, they’ll be transforming into what Cronacher calls a “dwarf brawler kind of playstyle.”

But the Revenant on the whole? Never called a ‘brawler’ profession. I’m sorry that it took this many months of you following profession developments and such for that misconception to be cleared up for you.

And how it would play anyway? Press ~ to swap wepaon, press f1 to swap legend?

Presumably, yes. The Revenant would not be the only profession with a ~ weapon swap and F1-4 keys: Guardian, Mesmer, Necromancer, Ranger, and Thief.

If you desing an f2 key to alter your weapon skills based on legend thats additional 10 skills. Kinda like double death shroud.
The olny feature that wasnt fully decided yet was utilities set in stone.

And you thought that my idea of a new non-legendary general utility skill category would be a balance to nightmare? HA! Having F2 alter weapon skills makes my idea look like an easy-win cake walk.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Rising Dusk.2408:

A lot of forum specialists have heard the public’s cry for a weapon swap on Revenant and we’ve passed that along to the development team. I can’t promise they’ll add one, but I will say that in principle I agree with the premise; the Revenant needs the added customization and adaptation mid-combat that a weapon swap provides.

And did you represent those asking for other solutions rather than just plain weapon swap? There are just as many people asking here for a different solution than weapon swap.

Like what solutions?

Swap tied to the legend is terrible, forces you to swap legend when you don’t want or WORSE, keep a legend when you need to swap it. Legend swap is vital for revenant. Our main source of energy, our solution for the lack of customizable utility skills and almost our only stun break. If you tie weaponswap to that we’ll be even more often in a “guess I’ll just wait” situation.

Weapon modes with F2 key is a nice solution, I also suggested it in the first day of this last beta, but harder to implement and inferior to plain old weaponswap.
Since Roy is showing that tomorrow it seems, I guess they just added the good old weaponswap. I seriously hope so, and I’ll support them if they did.

Kidel.2057:

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Rising Dusk.2408:

A lot of forum specialists have heard the public’s cry for a weapon swap on Revenant and we’ve passed that along to the development team. I can’t promise they’ll add one, but I will say that in principle I agree with the premise; the Revenant needs the added customization and adaptation mid-combat that a weapon swap provides.

And did you represent those asking for other solutions rather than just plain weapon swap? There are just as many people asking here for a different solution than weapon swap.

Like what solutions?

Swap tied to the legend is terrible, forces you to swap legend when you don’t want or WORSE, keep a legend when you need to swap it. Legend swap is vital for revenant. Our main source of energy, our solution for the lack of customizable utility skills and almost our only stun break. If you tie weaponswap to that we’ll be even more often in a “guess I’ll just wait” situation.

Weapon modes with F2 key is a nice solution, but harder to implement and inferior to plain old weaponswap.

Certainly not! I completely agree that Legends being absolutely tied to a weapon is a terrible idea. I’d rather have plain weapon swap in that case. However, there’s been several suggestions in the other threads here that have great solutions. I’d rather than not reguritate them though considering they’re still on the first page of this forum.

Kidel.2057:

As I said in another thread, forcing you to swap weapon with legendswap is a bad idea.
I may want to legendswap to heal (Shiro basically has no immediate healing skill) or to use a certain skill, or to reset energy, but I may want to keep my ranged weapon.

Yes yes yes, all good reasons!

Kidel.2057:

Normal weaponswap is a good solution. Also because weapons seem to be designed for a particolar legend, so having 2 legends and just 1 weapon doesn’t make much sense.

No no no! This is just boring implementation… Make every weapon a “blank slate”. Have the weapon be defined by the traits of the legend. Mallyx traits add conditions to slots 1-5. Shiro add damage modifiers. Ventari add support, etc. You keep those effects on 1-5, so you are free to swap legends as you wish and use whichever weapon you want on whichever build you want.

That still won’t add gameplay diversity, like changing from melee to ranged midfight, or getting reset on cooldowns.
That’s not a solution Xenon, we’d still need weaponswap. The one you’re suggesting is just a nice trait to have. But also another way to tie the legend to the weapon, that is bad for the very reason you quoted.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Certainly not! I completely agree that Legends being absolutely tied to a weapon is a terrible idea. I’d rather have plain weapon swap in that case. However, there’s been several suggestions in the other threads here that have great solutions. I’d rather than not reguritate them though considering they’re still on the first page of this forum.

Among those? (tanken from a thread in the first page)

Possible solutions

1. Allow weapon swap
2. Add Utility Skills to the legends, that provide something similar to Conjured Weapons or Kits
3. Completely change weapon skills depending on which stance you’re using (Elementalist-Attunement-style)
4. Only slightly change weapon skills depending on which stance you’re using (for example, Mace/Axe basically keeps it’s skills when changing from Mallyx to Jalis, but the skills lose their condition applying and get CC/protective effects instead, plus all skills turn into ranged versions of themselves)
5. Give us something like ‘Death Shroud’: Each legend allows us to swap between our weapon and five legend-based skills by pressing F2
6. Tie Legendary Stances to their respective weapons (so swapping stances auto-swaps your weapon, or swapping weapons auto-swaps your stance)
7. Completely switch legends with weapons: Legends determine your #1-#5 skills, weapons determine your #6-#0 skills (probably the biggest Revenant redesign of all possibilies, needs a lot of creativity)

2: has not been made and would force every revenant to use that legend, or to have a redundant skill on every legend.
3: bad for the already mentioned reason. Legend swap should not depend on weaponswap.
4: previous post
5: nice, but not a fast solution and legends would change too much, but that’s my opinion
6: bad, really bad. Again, legend swap has to be independent from weaponswap. I may want to swap legend to get energy/utility and keep the same weapon (ranged or melee), or swap weapon without needlessy change legend.
7: as above. It’s not really different.

The only solution to me is weaponswap, sorry. Maybe a conjured mist weapon of choice with F2, but that’s harder to accomplish and gives worse results. It’s just to say “look, it’s different! (but worse)”

Genesis.8572:

uhm

I guess you wasnt watching stream at all. Lets also not forget everything rev has so far is mostly melee and anti range with a good reason.

The fact that you also comparing a whole utility swap to a professions mechanic which cause an effect is laughable as well.

By giving them weapon swap you also have to rework every weapon set. Rev has low cd’s on wep skills as a compensation for lack of weapon swap. Something you dindt know about probably. Thats how they balanced it around.

You also have to make 2nd weapon for underwater as you cant give olny 1 set underwater for a profession with weapon swap. Spear actually inst even finished yet btw and you asking for 2nd set.

And unlike your “general utiltiies” idea f2 would provide a new 5 weapons skills coming out in a bundle as well. But actually outside of some useless/weak/outdated traits, underpowered utilities i think revenant is fine as it is. Why f2? To not force people to pick an utility like engi kits. But then again i am up for my solution for legends to modify a bit wep skills.

Why do you even asking for ranged option either way? Its something i still dont understand at all.

Rev doesn’t have low cd. You’re not factoring that hidden cd that is energy cost.

Listen, that f2 solution, just tell me how is it better then weaponswap? Because it’s “different”? Oh come on…

I want to be able to use hammer and dual swords, for god’s sake.

skowcia.8257:

I guess you wasnt watching stream at all.

Roy described the hammer as a brawler weapon. That’s it, but not the Revenant on the whole. Try again.

Lets also not forget everything rev has so far is mostly melee and anti range with a good reason.

Even the Guardian, which “is mostly melee and anti range with a good reason” has weapon swap.

The fact that you also comparing a whole utility swap to a professions mechanic which cause an effect is laughable as well.

You unsurprisingly misunderstand me. The point is that pressing F1-4 while having weapon swap on the “~” key is not challenging or that revolutionary. So what if F1 changes legends and ~ swaps weapons. Is that really hard for you to grasp or imagine? How would that be complicated? It’s an extra button.

By giving them weapon swap you also have to rework every weapon set. Rev has low cd’s on wep skills as a compensation for lack of weapon swap. Something you dindt know about probably. Thats how they balanced it around.

And unlike your “general utiltiies” idea f2 would provide a new 5 weapons skills coming out in a bundle as well. But actually outside of some useless/weak/outdated traits, underpowered utilities i think revenant is fine as it is. Why f2? To not force people to pick an utility like engi kits. But then again i am up for my solution for legends to modify a bit wep skills.

So by rework you mean adjusting cooldowns and energy costs? Thank the Six we are in beta then, because now is a great time for a rework. And it’s the sort of rework they would have to do anyway once it goes to release, since other professions receive such reworks all the time surrounding cooldowns, damage, effects, and skill costs. But your F2 idea would require an all new crazy layer of rework that would be far more absurd than my suggestions.

You also have to make 2nd weapon for underwater as you cant give olny 1 set underwater for a profession with weapon swap. Spear actually inst even finished yet btw and you asking for 2nd set.

Yes. Much like how you are asking about an F2 that alters all the weapon skills. But when you do the math, weapon swap and another underwater weapon would come out as requiring less work than your F2 weapon skill idea.

Why do you even asking for ranged option either way? Its something i still dont understand at all.

For range. It’s why the slow, melee and armor-heavy Guardians have scepter. It’s why Guardians will equip scepters in a number of dungeon/fractal/boss encounters. It’s why Guardians are also getting the Longbow.

Kidel.2057:

Rev doesn’t have low cd. You’re not factoring that hidden cd that is energy cost.

Energy cost that may be removed or drastically lowered. There may come completely new mechanic for gaining energy as well. Besides that as i said before cd’s was balanced about the fact that rev cant swap.

Kidel.2057:

Listen, that f2 solution, just tell me how is it better then weaponswap? Because it’s “different”? Oh come on…

How ele attunemets and conjures are better? How engi kits and toolbelts are better? They are all trying to be something “different”. Wouldnt it be easier to just slap weapon swap on them and be done with it? I mean come on..why creating 8/12 or even 20 skills based on weapon? Just give eles 2 weapons, give them 1 skill of each element on skills 2-5+arcane on 1 and be done with it. Logic. I have feeliing that you been complaining about them too, if you was at launch naturally.

Kidel.2057:

I want to be able to use hammer and dual swords, for god’s sake.

Even with wep swap you can still use olny one set. Unless you want to triple wield? If you want to swap between dual swords and hammer roll warrior.

You bashing everyone and every single idea in every possible thread with alternative solutions just cause you want to swap between dual sword/hammer. From your statement all i can see is a spoiled child in the shop yelling to mom “me want, me want, buy it me nao”. You do not provide any reasonable argument as to why revenant needs weapon swap. Literally none. Everything is bleh, just give me weapon swap cus i said so.

Discussion with you is pointless honestly. How do you even play your guardian with subpar ranged options?

skowcia.8257:

Kidel.2057:

I want to be able to use hammer and dual swords, for god’s sake.

Even with wep swap you can still use olny one set. Unless you want to triple wield?

Lol.

skowcia.8257:

If you want to swap between dual swords and hammer roll warrior.

That was just an example…

skowcia.8257:

You do not provide any reasonable argument as to why revenant needs weapon swap.

Seriously? I gave you way more then one.
And you’re even suggesting a F2 conjured weapon mechanic as a possible solution for them. And you still didn’t tell me why your suggestion is better then weaponswap (except you personally want it). How are kits and attunements better? Well because they are almost the same thing as weaponswap but you get many of them. Weaponswap is just 5 extra skills, attunement is 15 more.

Not wasting any more time with you, sorry.

Kidel.2057:

And they also have much longer cooldowns. More =/= better.
And honestly i dont want f2, mist weapons, utilities similiar to kits or whatever there may be. The olny thing i want is legend affecting weapon skills so staff wont feel pointless in Mallyx etc. Range? If i meet a encounter where ill ever need range i will swap to hammer otherwise i will melee everything on my way. Howered if they must have a way to change their 1-5 skills, i want it to be something original just like engi and ele otherwise i might as well stick to my guardian, ranger or warrior. One utility swap doesnt make them unique by any means. It actually makes it olny harder as you have to swap to nd2 bar for healing skill.

skowcia.8257:

Weapon swap is not the answer. They can make him adapt by other means than weapon swap. If engi and ele could do fine without weapon swap for 3 years, why revenant would end up as exception?

Perhaps because symmetry, and this pattern the users have observed, alone isn’t really that strong of a reason to not at least consider it. It is fine that they started with the idea of third heavy armor profession without weapon swap when drafting the profession, however, sticking to that initial decision just for the sake of sticking to it is not the right way to design anything. If ArenaNet as they say is truly iterative developer it would be wrong of them not to consider this feedback about Revenant’s lack of customization… all of the various proposed solutions not just weapon swap.

Elementalists and Engineers have different replacements for weapon swap, Elementalists arguably more than one. Right now, as far as we know, Revenant has none of that. Sure two sets of utilities are nice and all, but those utilities are also way more rigid than say Elementalists (since even some of them have multiple variants) and balanced in line with the idea that you have another set of them. Yes, other classes have longer cooldowns on their utilities and Revenant have energy mechanic but that same resource is class wide, unlike say Thieves initiative which it uses only for weapon skills, which means that our weapon skills actually sometimes have two cost factors to them instead of the usual one cooldown.

Weapon swap is not the answer, but it is an answer… one that should warrant just as much consideration as any of the other solutions. If it turns in the end then be the solution they choose then so be it, if not that is fine too.

How about this: since all current 8 classes have only 5 weapon skills and a bunch of utility skills, why not have Revenants change weapon skills? Just like how other classes can change utilities, Revs will change weapon skills. Would it be a lot of work? Yes, but by being able to change what skills a weapon can use, that should add back that Rev’s lost customization. Just a suggestion.