Guild Wars 2

I want to make a rampager P/D and SB roaming build for WvW. How viable would this be compared to the meta dire?

I just want to know if it’s viable. I already run zerker based builds for my thief, so I’m already used to being a glass cannon.

Why did you pick Rampager over Carrion or Rabid?

Anything specific why you would want that much Prec on a P/D?

The answers to these questions are important since Rampager and Dire are completely different sets for completely different playstyle and preference.

I don’t play P/d because I hate the play style but I don’t think the build would work out. If you are going for a condition build, dire is superior. Thief doesn’t have any crit condition traits like mesmer or engi so having crit chance seems useless imo. Using dire gives you higher condition damage and higher survivability compared to rampagers.
Rampagers may be useful if you were making a hybrid but going condition build it’s just better to go dire.

Rampager makes for a good hybrid build wherein you can get 1000+ base condition damage, a high crit rate and 2000+ power. Use Runes of the Aristocrat and you can build might . Armor and vitality will suffer.

If already used to glass cannon you can do well with this sort of build.

babazhook.6805:

Rampager makes for a good hybrid build wherein you can get 1000+ base condition damage, a high crit rate and 2000+ power. Use Runes of the Aristocrat and you can build might . Armor and vitality will suffer.

If already used to glass cannon you can do well with this sort of build.

1000 base condition is sad, same goes with 2000 power. Having high crit doesn’t help your condition damage so going hybrid is not a good thing for P/D since the main source of damage is condition, not auto-attack. Thus, the base condition damage for P/D should be 1500.

However, if you shift your stats to add more condition damage, you will lose either power or crit, so might as well abandon the notion of hybrid.

D/D on the other hand can go hybrid way better than P/D with 2000 pwr and 1000 condi dmg base.

“Viable” could mean any number of things. Will you be able to kill mediocre players with it? Yes. Will it be as strong as a pure dire set? No.

The benefit of running a condi build is that you get to be fairly tanky without sacrificing much dps, due to the way condi’s work in this game. With a rampager set, your dps won’t be much higher, but you’re far, far squishier. Condi thieves don’t really gain much from crits (as opposed to engi’s or mesmers), so precision isn’t that important.

P/D as a weapon set contributes almost nothing to team-play, so you can forget about it there.

mango.9267:

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P/D as a weapon set contributes almost nothing to team-play, so you can forget about it there.

But but — what about venom share? Today’s update makes sure that everyone gets condition damage based on my stats.

I can see you rolling your eyes….lol

Sir Vincent III.1286:

mango.9267:

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P/D as a weapon set contributes almost nothing to team-play, so you can forget about it there.

But but — what about venom share? Today’s update makes sure that everyone gets condition damage based on my stats.

I can see you rolling your eyes….lol

Mine are :/

thief hasnt been designed for hybrid
low hp low armor low boon gaining cant give you the option

so will it works yes in some cases but will it be optimum for every scenario i dont think so

I played with power p/d earlier and it still felt pretty strong, so perhaps tossing in some condi damage might make it better. I’d rather not pull off a d/d hybrid, as I’ve yet to see many thieves make good use of that build.

I was theory crafting some burst condi with sigil, hence my interest in precision. (sigil of torment). And my definition of ‘viable’ is: “Can I spike a burst quickly, or at least be an aggravating pain in the neck, and still run away?”

burst and conditions are not alike
burst is an instant dmg and condition is DoT
so if you want to spike a burst you need power+critdmg+crit chance
to be pain in the neck you can go condi

so on the paper you can say hybrid will do the most damage over time but the thief lack the defensive to go with it not like the d/d ele, warrior etc

>>1000 base condition is sad, same goes with 2000 power. Having high crit doesn’t help your condition damage so going hybrid is not a good thing for P/D since the main source of damage is condition, not auto-attack. Thus, the base condition damage for P/D should be 1500.

I can not concur.

Increasing from 1000 to 1500 condition damage will boost ones damage per tick on 12 stacks of bleed by some 300 points. This presuming no cleanses and those bleed stacks maintained that entire period.

A single crit on medium armor will add as much damage and more using even that base 2000 power. The only requirement is that one attacks and hits. There no need to maintain stacks or worry about a cleanse.

When I speak of HIGH crit rate I mean that and in one second one can get 2 attacks off from Vital shot meaning 2 crits. These two crits will add more damage then that extra 300 from higher condition damage.

In order to get that same amount of damage from condition bleeds off the AA attack on p/d versus power/crit based build one needs to increase condition damage to 2000.

This of course means less raw power.

Now This is only factoring in the p/d AA which is one of the weakest direct attacks available. In a Hybrid build with a high crit rate the sneak attack and shadowstrike portions of the weapon skills along with the CND will all do much more damage.

A single attack with shadowstrike that crits will easily add over 1k excess in damage which is not DOT.

Now that base power is only a base. One will generally add more to it with things like guard stacks/consumables and the like in WvW (which is where i speak of). Further the runes of the Aristocrat will keep up 12 stacks quite easily.

Presuming 400 extra power from just might one gets around 15+ percent more upfront damage on a p/d autoattack in a power hyrbid build. This then doubled up again when a crit takes (assuming high ferocity and one can get close to 200 percent here with `~ 900 condi damage ). A base 700 vital shot no crit is now base 800 and with crit kicking in it now 1600 or 200 damage boost at a rate that is faster then 1 tick.

The 400 might added to condition damage will add a flat number of 5 per 100 per stack.

In short p/d is not all that bad in a power build and as it most definitely good in a condi build it does work hybrid. An excellent off hand supplement weapon set would be d/d as is p/p.

The advantage of PD condition over power (dire over rampager) are of course higher toughness and higher vitality thus survivability and its damage edge comes when factoring in other conditions other then bleed which does not come off the AA.

A person who is used to surviving glass cannon can do quite well with a hybrid p/d while leveraging crits for more raw damage.

I played p/d hybrid for quite some time with low crit rate. My vital shots on crit hit for 1000+( against low armor) while bleed stacks were hitting 2000 per tick. It does work.

(this was using dire for survivals sake. As I have gotten better at dodges stealths the need for that vitality armor changed . Now one can only get so good at avoiding damage and as the meta changes without traits/skills that add to survivability there might be a need to go back to higher armor and vitality but that would not be because p/d with high crits unsuitable in a hybrid build.)

Arikyali.5804:

I played with power p/d earlier and it still felt pretty strong, so perhaps tossing in some condi damage might make it better. I’d rather not pull off a d/d hybrid, as I’ve yet to see many thieves make good use of that build.

I was theory crafting some burst condi with sigil, hence my interest in precision. (sigil of torment). And my definition of ‘viable’ is: “Can I spike a burst quickly, or at least be an aggravating pain in the neck, and stuff run away?”

You can’t spike and DoT using P/D. Not possible. It’s only possible with D/D due to backstab (spike) and Death Blossom (bleed). Also, P/D’s sneak attack doesn’t work very well with CnD.

The Sigil of Torment looks interesting, but you have to realize that by prioritizing Prec to proc the sigil will leave yourself with a mediocre Torment damage. So, you have to ask yourself, is it really worth it to proc a condition that deals mediocre damage?

At the same time, your physical damage is also mediocre.

There is no “viable” build that can satisfy your preference. You have to go D/D on a Carrion set and forget about proc-ing a sigil.

babazhook.6805:

Increasing from 1000 to 1500 condition damage will boost ones damage per tick on 12 stacks of bleed by some 300 points. This presuming no cleanses and those bleed stacks maintained that entire period.

The possibility of a cleanse makes the increase in condition damage more sense. And if not cleansed, it deals even more damage over time.

Now This is only factoring in the p/d AA which is one of the weakest direct attacks available. In a Hybrid build with a high crit rate the sneak attack and shadowstrike portions of the weapon skills along with the CND will all do much more damage.

A single attack with shadowstrike that crits will easily add over 1k excess in damage which is not DOT.

On paper. Keep in mind that your crit damage is based on ferocity and not precision. Sure you can crit, but don’t try to oversell it by saying that it deals much more damage because it’s not.

The only real reason to carry a high crit is like what the OP said, to proc a sigil.

The advantage of PD condition over power (dire over rampager) are of course higher toughness and higher vitality thus survivability and its damage edge comes when factoring in other conditions other then bleed which does not come off the AA.

You forget, Dire has higher condition damage also than Rampager.

A person who is used to surviving glass cannon can do quite well with a hybrid p/d while leveraging crits for more raw damage.

Crits are only worth it if you have 200% critical damage, which something you won’t get from your build.

And seriously? Rune of Aristocracy?

Now you’re trolling.

I played p/d hybrid for quite some time with low crit rate. My vital shots on crit hit for 1000+( against low armor) while bleed stacks were hitting 2000 per tick. It does work.

What works exactly?

(this was using dire for survivals sake. As I have gotten better at dodges stealths the need for that vitality armor changed . Now one can only get so good at avoiding damage and as the meta changes without traits/skills that add to survivability there might be a need to go back to higher armor and vitality but that would not be because p/d with high crits unsuitable in a hybrid build.)

When you successfully ran a Rampager hybrid set, I surely want to hear a lot more about it. Admitting that you use Dire invalidates everything you have posted. That’s why you’re not making any sense.

>>You forget, Dire has higher condition damage also than Rampager.

So ? this does not translate to more damage then rampager.

The difference in Condition damage is 91 more points. On 12 stacks of bleed this will generate 48 more damage per tick. Those stacks must always be maintained at 12 to get that 48 per tick more damage.

Rampager has 224 more power then Dire. The precision will give a base of 15 percent more crits. 224 more power will add over 10 percent more damage per shot. There are no stacks to maintain. In a 10 second period p/d auto on a low power rampager build one gets more extra damage from the increased precision/power then one does from that added condition damage in dire.

The difference is DIRE has more survival.

>>What works exactly?

It kills enemies fast and has high survival.

>>When you successfully ran a Rampager hybrid set, I surely want to hear a lot more about it. Admitting that you use Dire invalidates everything you have posted. That’s why you’re not making any sense.

Not at all. All that happens with rampager is one is flipping more direct damage for condition. You really are not interested in "hearing about it as evidenced by the rest of your post.

>>And seriously? Rune of Aristocracy?
>>Now you’re trolling.

Seriously? There is a reason we see so many engineers and Elementalists running runes of strength. It is because they can generate might enough it allows them sources of both condition and power damage. Then can then trait elsewhere for more surival without hurting overall damage output.

This somehow can not work on a thief? I tried both Strength runes and Aristocrat runes in a thief build and built might just as fast with Aristocrat. A single withdraw can generate 6 might stacks that last past the cooldown period for the same. Other sources of might are ample from a combination of venoms/stealths/dodges and the like.

Runes of the Aristocrat allow a thief to stack 12 stacks of might without breaking a sweat. This is 420 more power and 420 more condition damage. A base of 2000 power and 1000 condition would boost that to 2400 power 1400 condition. In one breath you point to the 91 extra points of Condition damage from Dire over rampager as some sort of great advantage and then in the next pooh pooh 400+ extra condition damage AND power! .

Using Aristocrat runes i Could self generate over 20 stacks of might if I wished which gave 2700 power and 2400 condi damage in a hybrid build. That does a LOT of damage. Your sneak attacks loads on just as many bleeds along with a huge boost in direct damage. Your shadowstrikes torments hit just as hard as someone in Krait and the second attack can spike to 3000+

>>When you successfully ran a Rampager hybrid set, I surely want to hear a lot more about it. Admitting that you use Dire invalidates everything you have posted. That’s why you’re not making any sense.

All that dire adds is vitality and armor. I currently run NO stealth with 2200 armor and less then 15k health and survive just fine. It does not mean I never die. It means I am comfortable with my kills to deaths ratio. Using rampager to add condition damage does not change the build a heck of a lot from what I currently use. I would not use p/d however. I would use p/p using the 1 skill for bleeds and unload for direct damage. This would be supplemented by d/p or some such for that heartseeker as finisher.

babazhook.6805:

The difference in Condition damage is 91 more points. On 12 stacks of bleed this will generate 48 more damage per tick. Those stacks must always be maintained at 12 to get that 48 per tick more damage.

Rampager has 224 more power then Dire. The precision will give a base of 15 percent more crits. 224 more power will add over 10 percent more damage per shot. There are no stacks to maintain. In a 10 second period p/d auto on a low power rampager build one gets more extra damage from the increased precision/power then one does from that added condition damage in dire.

The difference is DIRE has more survival.

You’re forgetting that the direct damage you deal is mitigated by the armor of your target while condition damage will deal the same amount regardless of what armor they are wearing.

While power may yield a higher damage output, it is not a consistent damage and it is susceptible to dodge, block, and deflect. Compare to condition damage, once it is applied, it will deal damage until it is cleansed or wears off.

Also with Dire, you can push the condition damage close to 2000 and each stack of might just makes it much better.

It kills enemies fast and has high survival.

There’s no point to go hybrid then if “fast” is your goal. That’s why your position doesn’t make any sense. You pick a build that you claim to be hybrid yet you rely mainly in dealing direct damage which you could have easily achieved by using Berserker.

Not at all. All that happens with rampager is one is flipping more direct damage for condition. You really are not interested in "hearing about it as evidenced by the rest of your post.

What I’m not interested about is your claim to deal more damage by investing in Precision without Ferocity.

The OP makes more sense because he/she posted that the reason for the Precision is to proc a sigil. You on the other hand doesn’t make any sense. It seems that you’re fusing a lot of build into one mega build.

Seriously? There is a reason we see so many engineers and Elementalists running runes of strength. It is because they can generate might enough it allows them sources of both condition and power damage. Then can then trait elsewhere for more surival without hurting overall damage output. This somehow can not work on a thief?

Might should be a bonus to your build, not the necessary component.

Thief doesn’t have the luxury of high HP like Engis and Eles have, nor the luxury of having the best healing skills, nor the luxury of weapon set swapping for more accessible skills in combat. You can’t use them as your flat form. What works for them doesn’t necessarily mean it will work on Thieves.

Runes of the Aristocrat allow a thief to stack 12 stacks of might without breaking a sweat.

Like I said, make this build, run with it and find out first hand how awesome it is…unless of course a Dire P/D killed you first.

Using Aristocrat runes i Could self generate over 20 stacks of might if I wished which gave 2700 power and 2400 condi damage in a hybrid build.

If might give 35 power and condi per stack, a 20 stack will be 700. With a based of 1000 condi, how did you get 2400? Even as 25 stacks, there’s no way to get from 1000 to 2400. I suspect some finagling.

All that dire adds is vitality and armor.

No. It’s the massive amount of unblockable, undodgeable, and undeflectable damage.

Keep in mind, while direct damage is only coming from one source, condition damage is coming from different sources since P/D Thief has access to Poison, Bleed, and Torment. With this, it can easily surpass what ever damage output you can conjure with your Rampager build.

Until you can prove that Rampager can out damage a Dire, you really have no position to defend the validity of using a Rampager other than what the OP had posted — to proc a sigil.

>>If might give 35 power and condi per stack, a 20 stack will be 700. With a based of 1000 condi, how did you get 2400? Even as 25 stacks, there’s no way to get from 1000 to 2400. I suspect some finagling.

You did not read what I posted. I stated I had used a P/d DIRE build before. It was based on CONDITION damage first, Power second. There absolutely no reason this can not be done with Rampager as all you lose is 90 points of condition damage.

Remember dire has NO POWER yet I spiked the power to 2700. Rampager will spike that higher at the cost of 90 condi damage.

Keep in mind this in ORR so there no guard stacks or other wvw bonuses.

You can do with this with Aristocrat set.

I have many pictures of it as i was trying to see what I can peak it to. Enemies melt.

Now your claim that dire does more damage then Rampager.

Using Rampager one will generate about 4 crits in a 10 second period based on its precision alone. The OP wanted to use Sigil of torment.

You suggested he better off in Dire for the 91 extra condition damage. So you ask “How can you get more damage without ferocity.”

I will explain how.

First and foremost all criticals hit for 50 percent more damage. You do not need any ferocity. That means if you have a hit for 200 points and get a crit it hits for 300 points. That on its own is 100 more damage added to that damage comiong from every shot from the 224 more power the set affords. Crits/hits just happen and will get that bonus damage each time they hit.

Now there another facet of this you do not seem to grasp. The OP indicated he wanted to proc Torment.

He is not going to do this very well in DIRE. In a 10 second period he will generate about 4 total crits just based on Rampager based armor using the p/d autoattack. This with no other precision sources.. At 50 percent rate this will add two stacks of torment in that period. The will not be at the same time.

If one has four stacks of torment existing and wants to add more torment damage adding ONE extra stack will do more damage then adding 100 more condition damage.

Using rampager OP will get MORE stacks of torment on. Torment increased with Condition damage of rate of .0375*(condition damage). It has base damage of 32 per stack.

That means with 100 more condition damage you get 3.75 more damage from Dire per existing stack. In order to match his one extra stack you will need 900 more condition damage which Dire does not give you over rampager. The advantage is 91.

Now obviously you have to add in other conditions as they all have a multiplying effect but in order to make up that gap in Dire you need EVERY other condition running with multiple stacks.

He is still hitting harder then you and getting crits.

>>No. It’s the massive amount of unblockable, undodgeable, and undeflectable damage.

Your statement is illogical. For any of your conditions to TAKE the original attack must not have been blocked dodged or evaded. This is not exclusive to direct damage. The only difference is the condition damage then plays out over time while the dorect damage is already done.

Using dire does not add ANY of these things. It does not make your attacks less dodegeable. It does not make them less blockable. Please demonstrate to me why a person using dire armor is harder to dodge or block on an attack then someone using any other armor type.

If half of condition based attacks blocked and half direct damage based attacks blocked the latter will do less overall direct damage and the former will do less overall condition damage.

In a Hybrid every attack that gets through will do both immediate direct damage and condition damage. There are not any likelier to be “blocked” then any other build type.

>>There’s no point to go hybrid then if “fast” is your goal

There IS a point. With a hybrid you can do both direct and condition damage. Now an issue with direct damage is the need to reset or stealth to setup a next attack wherein you are no longer doing damage. With a hybrid you can do that high direct damage and still have those conditions clicking when you are stealthed, setting up a new attack or recovering ini.

It also works well when a person using diamond skin or a warrior uses melandru or berseker stance or the ele is immune to crits.

You mentioned blocks and evades of attacks trying to suggest this can not be done to condition based attacks. Totally wrong but let me give you something to chew on regarding conditions.

A warrior can wipe two conditions every 5 seconds simply with fast hands. You can do nothing to prevent that. Apparently he can do this at a rate faster then 2 per second simply by picking up and dropping a banner. Even if they do address this with an ICD a combination of cleansing ire and fast hands will keep that warrior condition free. He does not even have to block an attack.

What I would do with my p/d hybrid was ensure my conditions were enough to negate an enemies regens or passive healing such as healing signet and then take them down with high direct damage. I already played that style for over a year and I do not need to be told to “try it It wont work” when I know how well it worked.

I could move easily between group fights of 10 or 20 , larger zergs or solo and not be useless.

I grew tired of p/d > I have three thieves now and one still p/d. I am trying different builds because that is what I enjoy doing. I am giving other persons suggestions of things they might try.

I suggest rather then condemning any build that does not suit your criteria for a build, you try them for yourself.

babazhook.6805:

>>If might give 35 power and condi per stack, a 20 stack will be 700. With a based of 1000 condi, how did you get 2400? Even as 25 stacks, there’s no way to get from 1000 to 2400. I suspect some finagling.

You did not read what I posted. I stated I had used a P/d DIRE build before. It was based on CONDITION damage first, Power second. There absolutely no reason this can not be done with Rampager as all you lose is 90 points of condition damage.

You, sir, are the one who did not read what you posted.

Runes of the Aristocrat allow a thief to stack 12 stacks of might without breaking a sweat. This is 420 more power and 420 more condition damage. A base of 2000 power and 1000 condition would boost that to 2400 power 1400 condition. In one breath you point to the 91 extra points of Condition damage from Dire over rampager as some sort of great advantage and then in the next pooh pooh 400+ extra condition damage AND power! .
Using Aristocrat runes i Could self generate over 20 stacks of might if I wished which gave 2700 power and 2400 condi damage in a hybrid build. That does a LOT of damage.

So tell me how did you get 2400 condition damage from a base 1000 with 20 stacks of might?

Your screenshot fails you, since it shows that you have other buff from food and oil.

babazhook.6805:

>>If might give 35 power and condi per stack, a 20 stack will be 700. With a based of 1000 condi, how did you get 2400? Even as 25 stacks, there’s no way to get from 1000 to 2400. I suspect some finagling.

You did not read what I posted. I stated I had used a P/d DIRE build before. It was based on CONDITION damage first, Power second. There absolutely no reason this can not be done with Rampager as all you lose is 90 points of condition damage.

Remember dire has NO POWER yet I spiked the power to 2700. Rampager will spike that higher at the cost of 90 condi damage.

Keep in mind this in ORR so there no guard stacks or other wvw bonuses.

You can do with this with Aristocrat set.

I have many pictures of it as i was trying to see what I can peak it to. Enemies melt.

May I please have a gw2skills link of your build, if it is not too much trouble, very interested in it.

babazhook.6805:

~snip~

However that’s based on the assumption that you’re simply standing DPSing with no regards if you can consistently maintain that damage when running and dodging around due to base toughness and 10k HP.

So while you’re trying to compensate your low survivability with dodges and evades (or maybe even with stealth), you’re not doing any DPS once you are put on a defensive.

The real key here is damage consistency. Sure you can argue that Rampager can deal more damage, I can surely see that. But the set’s inability to improve your defensive stats begs the question about damage consistency.

Unlike Berserker, which can remain consistent in DPS due to their high burst even when they have to dodge around, Rampager neither have a high burst (1500 base power and zero ferocity) nor high enough condition damage to make up for the lost in DPS.

We can argue this back and forth but the fact of the matter is. Rampager is a poor choice for a hybrid. You can surely use the set to proc Torment from sigil, but with such a low condition damage, it’s hardly worth it.

With high toughness and vitality, Dire can push the condition damage close to 2000 by using runes like Undead and consumables like orrian truffles and tuning crystals. This is without any stack of might.

With 25 stacks of might, you’re looking at ~2900 condition damage where a single stack of bleed will deal 187 DPS, of torment will deal 140 DPS (x2 when moving), and of poison will deal 373 DPS.

babazhook.6805:

>>No. It’s the massive amount of unblockable, undodgeable, and undeflectable damage.

Your statement is illogical. For any of your conditions to TAKE the original attack must not have been blocked dodged or evaded. This is not exclusive to direct damage. The only difference is the condition damage then plays out over time while the dorect damage is already done.

It’s not illogical, I’m talking about damage that is already applied, not the attack itself. Once the condition is applied, it will continue to deal damage.

If you want to talk about attacks, then you must also acknowledge that there are ways to apply unblockable conditions (i.e. Chocking Gas).

babazhook.6805:

Using dire does not add ANY of these things. It does not make your attacks less dodegeable. It does not make them less blockable. Please demonstrate to me why a person using dire armor is harder to dodge or block on an attack then someone using any other armor type.

Don’t get confused. The comparison I’m making is dealing damage where condition damage is consistent and physical damage is not.

If you deal 100 DPS, to inflict 1000 damage, you need to attack 10 times, which each attack is susceptible to being blocked, dodged, and deflected.

Condition damage, on the other hand, only needs to be applied once and to last for 10s with 100 DPS to deal 1000 damage. Once applied, this damage is unblockable, undodgeable, and undeflectable.

>>There’s no point to go hybrid then if “fast” is your goal

There IS a point. With a hybrid you can do both direct and condition damage. Now an issue with direct damage is the need to reset or stealth to setup a next attack wherein you are no longer doing damage. With a hybrid you can do that high direct damage and still have those conditions clicking when you are stealthed, setting up a new attack or recovering ini.

That’s not fast. What I’m trying to allude to is if you want fast, you need to go burst — meaning high power, high crit, and high ferocity.

It also works well when a person using diamond skin or a warrior uses melandru or berseker stance or the ele is immune to crits.

No argument here. I agree. What I disagree is choosing Rampager as your hybrid where an Ele immune to crits will simply laugh at your damage output and low toughness and vitality. In comparison, if you picked Carrion set for your hybrid, you can deal a lot of damage due to high power even if it never crits plus an increase in vitality.

A warrior can wipe two conditions every 5 seconds simply with fast hands. You can do nothing to prevent that. Apparently he can do this at a rate faster then 2 per second simply by picking up and dropping a banner. Even if they do address this with an ICD a combination of cleansing ire and fast hands will keep that warrior condition free. He does not even have to block an attack.

This argument is moot. I can also draft a scenario where a Rampager can fail miserably and use that to prove you wrong. This type of argument is meaningless because ther will always be a build that is specialized to defeat any other builds. For instance, Sw/Sw Dire Warrior can destroy a Rampager Thief in any given scenario. Just the Dire set alone (no traits, runes, etc.), the Sw/Sw Warrior will have 2735 Armor and 24k health and can apply Bleed and Torment on top of their high damage auto-attack which is faster than the pistol auto-attack.

If we go down this road, then might as well leave things as is.

I grew tired of p/d > I have three thieves now and one still p/d. I am trying different builds because that is what I enjoy doing. I am giving other persons suggestions of things they might try.

I’m simply trying to make sense on what you’re suggesting.

I suggest rather then condemning any build that does not suit your criteria for a build, you try them for yourself.

I asked you the same way. You’re suggesting an armor set that you don’t even use. You admit to use Dire, so why do you suggest Rampager?

trapper runes are pretty broken atm, I suggest slapping those o if you’re playing p/d

Rampagers can work for thief, but you need to build towards it. I experimented heavily with rampagers when the ferocity stat was introduced (to determine if the damage delta of added condi was greater than that provided by the “nerfed” crit damage of the new Ferocity stat), and it actually gives more Prec than Zerker, but you’ll need to rely on might to push power/condi to an acceptable level.

However, that’s the point right? Get power/condi both really high, do great damage over time, and good up-front damage.

To take advantage of rampagers precision, i’d suggest both sigil of strength and sigil of air. Sigil of Air scales with power (not crit) so you’re getting some synergy by stacking power from might.

I’d also suggest at least 3 into critical strikes, so that you are gaining some more initiative from crit, if your build can allow for it — though hybrid builds are even harder to get “just right” with point distribution, because you are trying to do a lot.

Moral of the story is, if you’re going to go the hybrid route, it’s really all about power and condi. You can use carrion to open up your build options (it already comes with great power/condi baked in) and provide more survivability, or you can rampagers to use crits to take advantage of “on crit”, both from runes/sigils, as well as our scant options for on crit traits. But if you go rampagers, stack as many on-crits as possible, either from equipment, or traits, or both.