Guild Wars 2

Increase the health you get per initiative spent (maybe to 75 or so), since if you go 30 in acrobatics you most likely won’t go for shadow arts and so you don’t get extra healing from healing power (since thiefs don’t generally take gear with healing power).

Secondly make it heal the thief for a set amount (say 2k hp or so) when his initiative reaches 0, and give this effect a 30-60 sec internal cooldown.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this trait cos most people agree it is so not worth the 30 points.

Also sorry if there are other suggestions like this, in which case i just wasted 10 seconds of your time.

foste.3098:

Increase the health you get per initiative spent (maybe to 75 or so), since if you go 30 in acrobatics you most likely won’t go for shadow arts and so you don’t get extra healing from healing power (since thiefs don’t generally take gear with healing power).

Secondly make it heal the thief for a set amount (say 2k hp or so) when his initiative reaches 0, and give this effect a 30-60 sec internal cooldown.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this trait cos most people agree it is so not worth the 30 points.

Also sorry if there are other suggestions like this, in which case i just wasted 10 seconds of your time.

Not gonna happen. The point to spec-ing Acro is to avoid damage so you’ll never see a good way of healing yourself in this trait tree.

foste.3098:

Increase the health you get per initiative spent (maybe to 75 or so), since if you go 30 in acrobatics you most likely won’t go for shadow arts and so you don’t get extra healing from healing power (since thiefs don’t generally take gear with healing power).

I’d like the base heal to be increased as well, but nobody is stopping you from taking some Healing Power. A couple pieces of Cleric’s or Magi’s are both perfectly defensible for a 30 Acrobatics spec. Two ascended rings with major HP gives you a substantial boost to the healing on AR.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

foste.3098:

Increase the health you get per initiative spent (maybe to 75 or so), since if you go 30 in acrobatics you most likely won’t go for shadow arts and so you don’t get extra healing from healing power (since thiefs don’t generally take gear with healing power).

Secondly make it heal the thief for a set amount (say 2k hp or so) when his initiative reaches 0, and give this effect a 30-60 sec internal cooldown.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this trait cos most people agree it is so not worth the 30 points.

Also sorry if there are other suggestions like this, in which case i just wasted 10 seconds of your time.

Not gonna happen. The point to spec-ing Acro is to avoid damage so you’ll never see a good way of healing yourself in this trait tree.

You can’t avoid conditions on you, and chances are if you’re in Acro you’re not in SA, meaning you don’t have much condition removal. I think it would be balanced to add condition removal every 4 or 5 initiative spent on top of the current Assassin’s Reward healing, which would justify it as a grandmaster trait and add sustainability for acrobatics thieves, because in the current state, you’re dodging until you mess up and get bursts down or you kill them fast enough. With condition specs this is an entirely different ordeal, as the damage still ticks down while you’re dodging and healing with Assassin’s Reward.

Interceptor.2653:

foste.3098:

Increase the health you get per initiative spent (maybe to 75 or so), since if you go 30 in acrobatics you most likely won’t go for shadow arts and so you don’t get extra healing from healing power (since thiefs don’t generally take gear with healing power).

I’d like the base heal to be increased as well, but nobody is stopping you from taking some Healing Power. A couple pieces of Cleric’s or Magi’s are both perfectly defensible for a 30 Acrobatics spec. Two ascended rings with major HP gives you a substantial boost to the healing on AR.

I guess if you really want to do it, you surely can — but that’s a good way to waste resources to purchase ascended items. The significant loss of damage output just to make a crappy trait to work to me is not worth it — because we all know, in a couple of months or so, Anet will nerf Thieves again and leave you out to dry because Anet wants Thieves to die as soon as we show ourselves.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I guess if you really want to do it, you surely can — but that’s a good way to waste resources to purchase ascended items. The significant loss of damage output just to make a crappy trait to work to me is not worth it — because we all know, in a couple of months or so, Anet will nerf Thieves again and leave you out to dry because Anet wants Thieves to die as soon as we show ourselves.

You have to give up something to get something. Acrobatics may not pair well with Shadow Arts, but Trickery is definitely in play, and you can get +3 to max init and 2/4 init on steal/heal, depending on how far you go. It doesn’t lend itself to super wombo-combo damage, but does anyone going down the Acrobatics line ever do that anyway? Acro is not a high-damage line in the first place: you have Fluid Strikes and PoI, and that’s about all she wrote.

Use exotic if you prefer; the stat drop-off is not huge.

Interceptor.2653:

…but does anyone going down the Acrobatics line ever do that anyway? Acro is not a high-damage line in the first place: you have Fluid Strikes and PoI, and that’s about all she wrote.

That’s the thing, it’s not worth it trying to build around it.

I’m currently running a 25-0-0-15-30 because there’s not enough reason to go beyond 15 in Acrobat.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

That’s the thing, it’s not worth it trying to build around it.

I’m currently running a 25-0-0-15-30 because there’s not enough reason to go beyond 15 in Acrobat.

That’s just a choice that you’ve made. It’s not that Acrobatics doesn’t provide anything, it’s that you don’t like it. Going past Feline Grace to 30 Acro gives you another 1500 health, 15% boon duration, Fluid Strikes, and a pair of Master/GM traits (which include Pain Response and Quick Pockets, if you don’t like AR). It certainly makes you more survivable than 15 points in either DA or Trickery.

Builds always involve trade-offs. I go 30 Trickery too, even though I might as well be lighting the 300 condition damage on fire for all the good that it does me overall.

Interceptor.2653:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

That’s the thing, it’s not worth it trying to build around it.

I’m currently running a 25-0-0-15-30 because there’s not enough reason to go beyond 15 in Acrobat.

That’s just a choice that you’ve made. It’s not that Acrobatics doesn’t provide anything, it’s that you don’t like it. Going past Feline Grace to 30 Acro gives you another 1500 health, 15% boon duration, Fluid Strikes, and a pair of Master/GM traits (which include Pain Response and Quick Pockets, if you don’t like AR). It certainly makes you more survivable than 15 points in either DA or Trickery.

I never said that it doesn’t provide anything rather it’s not worth it. If I would focus on survivability, the right choice would be SA and not Acro. You get more for your 15 points in SA than going all the way to 30pts Acro.

Fluid Strikes is interchangeable with Exposed Weakness, but with Fluid Strikes, you don’t get the Power boost and condition duration from DA which synegized well with Exposed Weakness.

Builds always involve trade-offs.

Yes, but spec-ing for 30 Acro is a really bad trade off.

I go 30 Trickery too, even though I might as well be lighting the 300 condition damage on fire for all the good that it does me overall.

5pts into DA will make your Steal deal ~1140 poison damage instead of the base 840 damage.

You see, 25 in DA and 30 in Trick is a good pair; and 15 in Acro for mobility.

If Acrobatics were changed as follows:

Fleet of Foot – Remove a Condtion every time you dodge.
Assassin’s Reward – Heals you for 100 for every point of Initiative you use.

I’d give it a serious look. But until then it’s not getting more than 15 points.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

If I would focus on survivability, the right choice would be SA and not Acro. You get more for your 15 points in SA than going all the way to 30pts Acro.

Shadow Arts isn’t really that useful for people who don’t stealth or use venoms. You’ll get Toughness and some Healing Power, along with an Adept skill that’s OK-ish. Acrobatics is better if you’re mostly being active in combat.

Fluid Strikes is interchangeable with Exposed Weakness, but with Fluid Strikes, you don’t get the Power boost and condition duration from DA which synegized well with Exposed Weakness.

It’s not clear here what this has to do with survival. Nobody is calling Acrobatics an offensive trait line, but there is an offensive trait past the 15 that you’ve already invested in it.

Yes, but spec-ing for 30 Acro is a really bad trade off.

Says you. Not a week ago I was grinding out a Garrison capture against superior numbers, and there were AOEs flying around everywhere with nary a place to hide. I’d have gotten pasted across the floor like a booger if I’d been running your trait configuration. This is just a matter of opinion, naturally, but I feel like I contribute more when I’m alive.

I don’t disparage the glassy thieves their delicious cake, but let’s not pretend that there’s only one way to play the class.

5pts into DA will make your Steal deal ~1140 poison damage instead of the base 840 damage.

It also lets you do more damage when you have a Venomshare Thief in your group, or a Guardian, and it helps with shortbow conditions, and assorted other things that I care very little for. I’d prefer to take literally any other stat over condition damage, including Healing Power, but I spec Trickery anyway because I want what’s at GM. C’est la vie.

Interceptor.2653:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

If I would focus on survivability, the right choice would be SA and not Acro. You get more for your 15 points in SA than going all the way to 30pts Acro.

Shadow Arts isn’t really that useful for people who don’t stealth or use venoms. You’ll get Toughness and some Healing Power, along with an Adept skill that’s OK-ish. Acrobatics is better if you’re mostly being active in combat.

But we’re talking about survivability so in comparison, we have better chance of survival with SA than with Acro. Even if you don’t use stealth, having Hide in Shadow to remove 4 conditions is a plus when it comes to survival.

Fluid Strikes is interchangeable with Exposed Weakness, but with Fluid Strikes, you don’t get the Power boost and condition duration from DA which synegized well with Exposed Weakness.

It’s not clear here what this has to do with survival. Nobody is calling Acrobatics an offensive trait line, but there is an offensive trait past the 15 that you’ve already invested in it.

I’m addressing the benefit of taking Fluid Strikes (25 Acro)in comparison to taking Exposed Weakness (25 DA). I concluded that it’s more beneficial to take 25 DA than 25 Acro, meaning, there’s no reason to go pass 15 points in Acro.

Yes, but spec-ing for 30 Acro is a really bad trade off.

Says you. Not a week ago I was grinding out a Garrison capture against superior numbers, and there were AOEs flying around everywhere with nary a place to hide. I’d have gotten pasted across the floor like a booger if I’d been running your trait configuration. This is just a matter of opinion, naturally, but I feel like I contribute more when I’m alive.

Anyone can use a hyperbole when they have ran out of counter-arguments.

I don’t disparage the glassy thieves their delicious cake, but let’s not pretend that there’s only one way to play the class.

Nobody is dictating how the class should be played, we are merely having a discussion whether 30pts in Acro is a good idea. I’ve shown by comparison that there’s no benefit to go pass 15pts, that the 15pts can be used somewhere else with more benefit.

For damage, add the 15 pts in DA. For survival, add the 15pts in SA.

5pts into DA will make your Steal deal ~1140 poison damage instead of the base 840 damage.

It also lets you do more damage when you have a Venomshare Thief in your group, or a Guardian, and it helps with shortbow conditions, and assorted other things that I care very little for. I’d prefer to take literally any other stat over condition damage, including Healing Power, but I spec Trickery anyway because I want what’s at GM. C’est la vie.

I’m not sure where else do you put your points in if you don’t have at least 10pts in DA for Mug. :/

Mug seems to be an obvious choice if you spec Trickery.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

But we’re talking about survivability so in comparison, we have better chance of survival with SA than with Acro. Even if you don’t use stealth, having Hide in Shadow to remove 4 conditions is a plus when it comes to survival.

Nope.

Pain Response in 20 Acrobatics gives you similar condition protection at around the same rate, but it’s automatic and doesn’t require that you pick a bad healing skill. Someone with 20+ Acrobatics has a counter-measure for bleed/poison/burning (and a much longer Regen buff), but is still able to run Signet of Malice or Withdraw for far superior healing/utility.

HiS buys you a bonus condition. That’s cool. But worse than Acrobatics for the non-stealth Thief. If you don’t really benefit from stealth, and don’t even have something like Hidden Assassin for synergy, what’s the point?

I’m addressing the benefit of taking Fluid Strikes (25 Acro)in comparison to taking Exposed Weakness (25 DA). I concluded that it’s more beneficial to take 25 DA than 25 Acro, meaning, there’s no reason to go pass 15 points in Acro.

If we’re stipulating that you’re putting 15 into Acrobatics regardless, Fluid Strikes only costs 10 more points than your sunk cost. Exposed Weakness requires that you spend 25 points in Deadly Arts.

Anyone can use a hyperbole when they have ran out of counter-arguments.

It’s a true story. I have run 25/0/0/15/30 before, and you cannot survive sustained engagements to the extent that you can with a more Acrobatics-centric setup. I have to use builds that allow me to do the things that I want to do.

Nobody is dictating how the class should be played, we are merely having a discussion whether 30pts in Acro is a good idea. I’ve shown by comparison that there’s no benefit to go pass 15pts, that the 15pts can be used somewhere else with more benefit.

In other words, that it’s not worth it to you. But nobody ever says “that’s not worth it for me”, because that doesn’t sound as cool; they have to try to make some broader point that doesn’t doesn’t necessarily apply.

For damage, add the 15 pts in DA. For survival, add the 15pts in SA.

I’d be out of my mind to put 15 points in SA. There isn’t a single stealth on my bar. What is the point?

I’m not sure where else do you put your points in if you don’t have at least 10pts in DA for Mug. :/

Mug seems to be an obvious choice if you spec Trickery.

Mug is very good, and I sometimes run 10 DA, but it’s not the be-all end-all. 10 CS is also strong, even though it doesn’t synergize with Steal.

Interceptor.2653:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

But we’re talking about survivability so in comparison, we have better chance of survival with SA than with Acro. Even if you don’t use stealth, having Hide in Shadow to remove 4 conditions is a plus when it comes to survival.

Nope.

Pain Response in 20 Acrobatics gives you similar condition protection at around the same rate, but it’s automatic and doesn’t require that you pick a bad healing skill. Someone with 20+ Acrobatics has a counter-measure for bleed/poison/burning (and a much longer Regen buff), but is still able to run Signet of Malice or Withdraw for far superior healing/utility.

HiS buys you a bonus condition. That’s cool. But worse than Acrobatics for the non-stealth Thief. If you don’t really benefit from stealth, and don’t even have something like Hidden Assassin for synergy, what’s the point?

Stealth is a defensive mechanism to prevent re-application of targeted conditions and targeted damage for as least the duration of the stealth. HiS gives you a higher effective health. Pain Response has a horrible cooldown of 60s, HiS has 30s cooldown meaning you can remove conditions more often on top of a high healing on use.

Also Pain Response triggers and goes into cooldown even if you don’t need it just because you drop down to 75% health. :/

I’m addressing the benefit of taking Fluid Strikes (25 Acro)in comparison to taking Exposed Weakness (25 DA). I concluded that it’s more beneficial to take 25 DA than 25 Acro, meaning, there’s no reason to go pass 15 points in Acro.

If we’re stipulating that you’re putting 15 into Acrobatics regardless, Fluid Strikes only costs 10 more points than your sunk cost. Exposed Weakness requires that you spend 25 points in Deadly Arts.

Not 25 pts, only 15. Since I spec 30 in Trick, I already have 10 in DA for Mug. So that 15 pts can either go in DA for more damage or in Acro for mediocre damage.

To have 25-30 pts in Acro, I will going to be able to use Trick else I will have no damage thus I will have to put the 30pts from Trick to either DA or CS.

Anyone can use a hyperbole when they have ran out of counter-arguments.

It’s a true story. I have run 25/0/0/15/30 before, and you cannot survive sustained engagements to the extent that you can with a more Acrobatics-centric setup. I have to use builds that allow me to do the things that I want to do.

25/0/0/15/30 is for sustain engagement. Not sure what you’re talking about here.

Nobody is dictating how the class should be played, we are merely having a discussion whether 30pts in Acro is a good idea. I’ve shown by comparison that there’s no benefit to go pass 15pts, that the 15pts can be used somewhere else with more benefit.

In other words, that it’s not worth it to you. But nobody ever says “that’s not worth it for me”, because that doesn’t sound as cool; they have to try to make some broader point that doesn’t doesn’t necessarily apply.

No. It’s not worth it when you do the comparison of benefits. You have to ask yourself what you get for every point your put into a trait.

For damage, add the 15 pts in DA. For survival, add the 15pts in SA.

I’d be out of my mind to put 15 points in SA. There isn’t a single stealth on my bar. What is the point?

Then you’re not in need of survival because SA has the best survival traits.

I’m not sure where else do you put your points in if you don’t have at least 10pts in DA for Mug. :/

Mug seems to be an obvious choice if you spec Trickery.

Mug is very good, and I sometimes run 10 DA, but it’s not the be-all end-all. 10 CS is also strong, even though it doesn’t synergize with Steal.

What do you pick in 10 CS? Furious Retal? If so, you already have access to Fury with 10 Trick that can be triggered every 21s (or less).

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Stealth is a defensive mechanism to prevent re-application of targeted conditions and targeted damage for as least the duration of the stealth.

Am I speaking a different language, here? Stealth-based survival is not useful to people who cannot stealth. I have no stealths on my bar whatsoever. I can combo Black Powder and Cluster bomb if I really wanted to, that’s about it.

Never mind that stealth is highly vulnerable to AOEs and non-targeted damage + conditions.

HiS gives you a higher effective health. Pain Response has a horrible cooldown of 60s, HiS has 30s cooldown meaning you can remove conditions more often on top of a high healing on use.

Update your notes: Pain Response has a 30s cooldown, not 60s. Also, Pain Response has a long-duration Regeneration on it (10s vs. 4s). While HiS has a burst heal on it, Pain Response is not a Healing skill. PR lets you run something like Withdraw or Signet of Malice, which are superior heals to HiS past 15 seconds. Withdraw also throws in things like Vigorous Recovery, and the #4 skill on Lyssa.

Also Pain Response triggers and goes into cooldown even if you don’t need it just because you drop down to 75% health. :/

If I am under 75% health, I’m pretty sure that I could use a 12+ second regen.

Not 25 pts, only 15. Since I spec 30 in Trick, I already have 10 in DA for Mug. So that 15 pts can either go in DA for more damage or in Acro for mediocre damage.

But I don’t go down 10 DA all the time, so it’d be 25 points for me. And since I run 25-30 Acrobatics and you don’t, that seems like an important difference.

25/0/0/15/30 is for sustain engagement. Not sure what you’re talking about here.

I’m talking about the part of the game where you’re not dueling a single person, and the sustain in 25/0/0/15/30 not equal to the task.

No. It’s not worth it when you do the comparison of benefits. You have to ask yourself what you get for every point your put into a trait.

Who is “you” and “yourself” in your example? It’s you. Not me, not the generic thief, but you personally.

Then you’re not in need of survival because SA has the best survival traits.

Only if you are a stealther. If I have no stealths on my bar, than 30 SA is kind of a hilarious waste unless I’m using venoms, because there’s no survival there for me. Except Last Refuge, I guess?

What do you pick in 10 CS? Furious Retal? If so, you already have access to Fury with 10 Trick that can be triggered every 21s (or less).

Whatever I need at the moment.

- Furious Retaliation: 100% Fury uptime (Thrill is not enough for this by itself). Also allows me to drop Thrill for Long Reach without running totally dry on Fury access.
- Practiced Tolerance: 1300-1500+ health for an Adept skill is a pretty good deal.
- Signets of Power: if I am running a couple signets or more, this is 5 stacks of 13s+ Might on activation. A really good way to get Power in a hurry. Helps a lot for ones that I am using anyway, like Infiltrator’s.

And obviously besides the Adept skill, you also get the Precision/crit and Keen Observer.

Interceptor.2653:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Stealth is a defensive mechanism to prevent re-application of targeted conditions and targeted damage for as least the duration of the stealth.

Am I speaking a different language, here? Stealth-based survival is not useful to people who cannot stealth. I have no stealths on my bar whatsoever. I can combo Black Powder and Cluster bomb if I really wanted to, that’s about it.

My point is, with that benefit from stealth, why don’t you carry at least one?

Never mind that stealth is highly vulnerable to AOEs and non-targeted damage + conditions.

Eh? So you go in stealth and not move? o.O?

HiS gives you a higher effective health. Pain Response has a horrible cooldown of 60s, HiS has 30s cooldown meaning you can remove conditions more often on top of a high healing on use.

Update your notes: Pain Response has a 30s cooldown, not 60s.

Hmm, you’re right. Not sure where I got that 60s. I stand corrected.

Also, Pain Response has a long-duration Regeneration on it (10s vs. 4s). While HiS has a burst heal on it, Pain Response is not a Healing skill. PR lets you run something like Withdraw or Signet of Malice, which are superior heals to HiS past 15 seconds. Withdraw also throws in things like Vigorous Recovery, and the #4 skill on Lyssa.

That much is true, I agree. However it suffers from not being able to control Pain Response.

Also Pain Response triggers and goes into cooldown even if you don’t need it just because you drop down to 75% health. :/

If I am under 75% health, I’m pretty sure that I could use a 12+ second regen.

That’s not the point. If it triggers and it is put in cooldown, you lose your condition removal for the duration. HiS gives you the control when to remove and not remove conditions. Just like Last Refuge and Hard to Catch, it’s not a good game play to lose control of your Thief.

Not 25 pts, only 15. Since I spec 30 in Trick, I already have 10 in DA for Mug. So that 15 pts can either go in DA for more damage or in Acro for mediocre damage.

But I don’t go down 10 DA all the time, so it’d be 25 points for me. And since I run 25-30 Acrobatics and you don’t, that seems like an important difference.

So let me guess. Based on what you posted so far, you’re running a 0/10/0/30/30?

25/0/0/15/30 is for sustain engagement. Not sure what you’re talking about here.

I’m talking about the part of the game where you’re not dueling a single person, and the sustain in 25/0/0/15/30 not equal to the task.

How so? 30pts in Trick gives me a lot of mobility to sustain a non-single person engagement. Just to be clear, I main S/D set.

No. It’s not worth it when you do the comparison of benefits. You have to ask yourself what you get for every point your put into a trait.

Who is “you” and “yourself” in your example? It’s you. Not me, not the generic thief, but you personally.

I apologize. I failed to consider that there are Thieves like you who simply add points into traits without reasons and considerations that I am under a false impression that all the things that you have posted so far are nothing but cowpie.

My bad.

Then you’re not in need of survival because SA has the best survival traits.

Only if you are a stealther. If I have no stealths on my bar, than 30 SA is kind of a hilarious waste unless I’m using venoms, because there’s no survival there for me. Except Last Refuge, I guess?

I guess Thieves has less chance of survival when going into stealth that’s why you don’t pick up at least one stealth skill. You don’t have to be a stealther to use stealth.

What do you pick in 10 CS? Furious Retal? If so, you already have access to Fury with 10 Trick that can be triggered every 21s (or less).

Whatever I need at the moment.

- Furious Retaliation: 100% Fury uptime (Thrill is not enough for this by itself). Also allows me to drop Thrill for Long Reach without running totally dry on Fury access.
- Practiced Tolerance: 1300-1500+ health for an Adept skill is a pretty good deal.
- Signets of Power: if I am running a couple signets or more, this is 5 stacks of 13s+ Might on activation. A really good way to get Power in a hurry. Helps a lot for ones that I am using anyway, like Infiltrator’s.

And obviously besides the Adept skill, you also get the Precision/crit and Keen Observer.

Furious Retal has a 10s duration with 30s cooldown and only when target goes below 50%. Thrill gives you Fury every 10s if you spec SoH. So dropping Thrill for Long Reach is funny.

I’m curious what’s the stats on your build.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

My point is, with that benefit from stealth, why don’t you carry at least one?

Because in order to benefit from stealth, I have to give up 15 points in Acrobatics and run Hide in Shadows as my heal. HiS has a 30-second cooldown, and isn’t suitable for a build that never fights from stealth in the first place. Why in Tyria would I give up a 15s Withdraw heal on a build that’s running Vigorous Recovery? Especially since I could also have Lyssa runes (for the #4 ability), or be using Hastened Replenishment?

It just doesn’t make any kitten ed sense. If I’m not running HiS, I’m giving up a utility slot for stealth, which is (somehow) even worse. Acrobatics is an active playstyle: you either want to be fighting, running, or dead.

Eh? So you go in stealth and not move? o.O?

You don’t always have the freedom to avoid AOEs or no-target skills. Breaking LOS doesn’t mean that you’re playing against an idiot. Stealth offers no protection from these things if someone can guess where you are, or if you don’t actually have a lot of places to move to.

Hmm, you’re right. Not sure where I got that 60s. I stand corrected.

It’s worth noting here that this illustrates the difference between someone who plays a spec in real life, and someone who only plays it on paper. You would have never made this mistake if you actually used Pain Response yourself on a regular basis: I constantly have Regen for long durations of time because of trait.

That much is true, I agree. However it suffers from not being able to control Pain Response. […] it’s not a good game play to lose control of your Thief.

You don’t “suffer” from getting 12+ seconds of Regeneration when someone hits you. The worst case scenario for this trait is that it activates with no conditions and heals you for 1600+ over 12 seconds or more. Worst case! The best case scenario is when it removes all three conditions at the same time, and the average case is that you generally will be under the effects of one of them (bleed, burning, poison are very common).

Since this is merely a trait, you just need to have cover condition removal to slot in for the worst case (conditions applied while PR is on cooldown). an Acrobatics Thief is not running stealths, so this can be any or all of:

- Shadowstep
- Lyssa #6 (Basilisk Venom or Dagger Storm)
- Signet of Agility
- Infiltrator’s Return
- Condi removal on heal from food

One of those even does extra duty as a stun breaker and a mobility enhancer. Signet of Agility can give you a condi removal PLUS refilled endurance, PLUS 5 stacks of Might. If you are lacking backups for Pain Response, it’s User Error, i.e. your build has a problem.

Remember: much of the time, Pain Response makes these things unnecessary.

How so? 30pts in Trick gives me a lot of mobility to sustain a non-single person engagement. Just to be clear, I main S/D set.

The problem comes when you get into long engagements where health is the factor rather than evades. It happens in situations with focus fire, unavoidable AOE damage, inability to disengage (such as during a siege), etc. Mug and a long-cooldown healing skill are not necessarily sufficient.

I apologize.

Apology accepted. In the future, please understand that there is a difference between 1) your best practices, and 2) actual best practices. You can stay out of trouble if you label your opinions as opinions, and avoid making sweeping generalizations about playstyles that you are clearly not familiar with.

I guess Thieves has less chance of survival when going into stealth that’s why you don’t pick up at least one stealth skill. You don’t have to be a stealther to use stealth.

You have to be a stealther to use stealth as your primary survival mechanic. A build predicated on condition removal and healing during stealth needs ways to get there. A build designed around staying in combat and hitting people isn’t going to want to spend 15 points on a trait line that they can’t effectively leverage without unraveling their core style.

Furious Retal has a 10s duration with 30s cooldown and only when target goes below 50%.

Thanks for the update, but I know how Furious Retaliation works. And it’s not 10s of fury for an Acrobatics build: is this the core of why you don’t value Acro, because you don’t understand how important boon duration is? I get 13s of Fury of out this trait, and it’s plenty helpful in large engagements because of the ease of hitting someone who is <50% health just by accident.

That boon duration also comes in really handy for Vigor, just saying.

Thrill gives you Fury every 10s if you spec SoH. So dropping Thrill for Long Reach is funny.

I don’t need Fury. I’d prefer to have Thrill, but my build does not crater if Fury access becomes more limited, because I have other ways to burst damage in a pinch (and generally have good crit rate anyway). Long Reach is really nice for certain kinds of tasks, so Retal allows me to slot it in without going totally dry on Fury.

This is called “being flexible”, and it’s super-useful.

I’m curious what’s the stats on your build.

I don’t have a “build”. I tweak things constantly. The core is Knight’s Armor with Lyssa runes and mostly Berserker’s weapons/trinkets, although I have a lot of ascended trinkets banked and tend to swap in things like PVT for specific purposes (rings mostly, because of random Fractal drops). Cavalier is probably strictly better, but the extra Precision is handy for Tolerance and the odd switch to a CS-heavy on-crit build.

But generally speaking I’m usually around 16-17k health, ~2400 Armor, and ~2000 Power minimum as a starting point. Crit chance and rate are all over the place because of variance in utilities and food.

Imo Assassin’s Reward is for more sustain oriented specs that will be using multiple initiative skills. Given that I don’t see any reason to increase its base as they perhaps want to make Healing Power investment a more intriguing option than it currently is for thieves.

Interceptor.2653:

Because in order to benefit from stealth, I have to give up 15 points in Acrobatics and run Hide in Shadows as my heal. HiS has a 30-second cooldown, and isn’t suitable for a build that never fights from stealth in the first place. Why in Tyria would I give up a 15s Withdraw heal on a build that’s running Vigorous Recovery? Especially since I could also have Lyssa runes (for the #4 ability), or be using Hastened Replenishment?

…Acrobatics is an active playstyle: you either want to be fighting, running, or dead.

Seriously? Hastened Replenishment? And that’s your problem. Instead of taking Sleight of Hand and Mug, you rely on Withdraw to heal you.

If you pick up Vampiric, you get a burst heal after landing a back stab using HiS. Acrobatics is not an active playstyle because you rely on dodging as your main source of survival. SA gives your toughness to stay in the fight which reduces the necessity to dodge attack — meaning you’re doing more DPS; because there’s no DPS when you dodge. That’s the common mistake of someone about SA, they jump to conclusion that it’s all about stealthing and sneaking. The combination of toughness and healing power in this trait ensure that you have a lot of staying power.

You don’t always have the freedom to avoid AOEs or no-target skills. Breaking LOS doesn’t mean that you’re playing against an idiot. Stealth offers no protection from these things if someone can guess where you are, or if you don’t actually have a lot of places to move to.

If you have no where to go, how is Withdraw any better? It’s actually even worst because they don’t have to guess where you are.

It’s worth noting here that this illustrates the difference between someone who plays a spec in real life, and someone who only plays it on paper. You would have never made this mistake if you actually used Pain Response yourself on a regular basis: I constantly have Regen for long durations of time because of trait.

Yes, I thought it’s been obvious that I don’t use Pain Response because it is not worth it.

You don’t “suffer” from getting 12+ seconds of Regeneration when someone hits you. The worst case scenario for this trait is that it activates with no conditions and heals you for 1600+ over 12 seconds or more. Worst case!

Yes that is really bad knowing that your condition removal is wasted.

And you choose to supplement the trait’s short coming with these?

- Shadowstep
- Lyssa #6 (Basilisk Venom or Dagger Storm)
- Signet of Agility
- Infiltrator’s Return
- Condi removal on heal from food

Seriously?

Remember: much of the time, Pain Response makes these things unnecessary.

So “much of the time” those skills are just bench-warmers when you could’ve taken something more useful.

The problem comes when you get into long engagements where health is the factor rather than evades. It happens in situations with focus fire, unavoidable AOE damage, inability to disengage (such as during a siege), etc. Mug and a long-cooldown healing skill are not necessarily sufficient.

You see, the reason why this is a problem to you is because you refuse to see the value of stealth.

I apologize.

Apology accepted. In the future, please understand that there is a difference between 1) your best practices, and 2) actual best practices. You can stay out of trouble if you label your opinions as opinions, and avoid making sweeping generalizations about playstyles that you are clearly not familiar with.

You seem to misunderstood what I wrote there.

You have to be a stealther to use stealth as your primary survival mechanic.

No you don’t. That’s your main problem.

A build predicated on condition removal and healing during stealth needs ways to get there. A build designed around staying in combat and hitting people isn’t going to want to spend 15 points on a trait line that they can’t effectively leverage without unraveling their core style.

You got this one backwards. 15pts into SA removes the necessity to dodge attacks. The reason you dodge attacks with Acro build is because even with your boon duration and larger health pool, you’re still taking more damage. The reduces damage from toughness and the increase in healing power traiting to SA is enough to ensure that dodging an attack is less necessary — meaning you are dealing more damage.

The main test of survivability is how much punishment you can take before you would have to heal yourself. Dodging, evading and rolling away to heal all over the place every so often as a choice for survival is not survival — you are avoiding getting hit because you cannot survive it.

The more you reply, the more it’s obvious that you have no concept of how Acrobatics spec Thieves actually fight.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Seriously? Hastened Replenishment? And that’s your problem. Instead of taking Sleight of Hand and Mug, you rely on Withdraw to heal you.

And this is a perfect example of what I am talking about. You just ignored two of the primary benefits of an Acrobatics build, because you don’t play it and thus have no concept of where your healing is even coming from.

Here’s what happens when I push Withdraw:

• I get A 4,344 heal that comes out instantly with no casting time whatsoever.
• It also has a 60% Healing Power ratio.
• Any immobilized, chilled, or crippled conditions are GONE.
• I immediately get a 0.75s auto-evade, and fly backwards relative to my facing (not my target, so it’s easy to control).
• I now have 6.5s of Vigor.
• OPTIONAL: I get a random boon for 13s from Lyssa, one of which can be Vigor (which is hilarious when it happens). Only Swiftness is really sub-par here.
• OPTIONAL: I get 4 init back.

You’re scratching your head wondering where the healing is coming from, meanwhile you’re ignoring the 13s of Regen from Pain Response and the post-skill healing from burning initiative with Assassin’s Reward. HR feeds AR.

Sleight of Hand is really good, and I run it often, but I don’t need it all the time. I’m not playing S/D, I’m playing S/P: that means that I have two interrupts on my skill bar. I also don’t need to rely on Steal for sustain, and can use it more tactically as a boon-ripper and shadowstep. Daze and a few seconds of recharge are not always better than 4 init for me.

Acrobatics is not an active playstyle because you rely on dodging as your main source of survival.

This is total nonsense. What’s inactive about dodging around? Is this literally not the definition of being active? On what universe is “active” a synonym for “I am dealing damage”? I’m perfectly fine with causing people to whiff long-cooldown moves, or re-position myself, or buy time waiting for cooldowns of my own.

You are really stretching now.

SA gives your toughness to stay in the fight which reduces the necessity to dodge attack — meaning you’re doing more DPS; because there’s no DPS when you dodge. That’s the common mistake of someone about SA, they jump to conclusion that it’s all about stealthing and sneaking. The combination of toughness and healing power in this trait ensure that you have a lot of staying power.

Why did you bother asking me for my build if you were just going to ignore it? I itemize for Toughness by wearing Knight’s and/or bits of Soldier’s. I have ~2400 Armor. Surely you must understand that I wouldn’t even crack 2000 if I had no Toughness anywhere.

Fun fact: I also have access to Protection from Lyssa, plus whatever I can Steal from someone else. Elite gives a short-duration Prot, but it’s especially lollerskates when I win the roll of the dice and get 13s of Protection it from pushing #6, because now I can fight a Warrior straight-up.

If you have no where to go, how is Withdraw any better? It’s actually even worst because they don’t have to guess where you are.

Withdraw has no cast time, it auto-evades, and travels a fair distance in the process, in addition to removing all movement-based conditions. It’s also based on my facing, so the destination is 100% predictable. I can literally roll right through red circles and give zero kittens.

Yes, I thought it’s been obvious that I don’t use Pain Response because it is not worth it.

No, it’s obvious that you don’t use Pain Response because you apparently have no idea what it does. NOBODY who used PR would make the cooldown mistake that you did. Certainly they wouldn’t hand-wave the Regen like it didn’t exist, either.

Yes that is really bad knowing that your condition removal is wasted.

What was wasted? I just got Regen when I was injured. Condition removal can come from somewhere else. Obviously I would not be opposed to Assassin’s Reward removing conditions as well, but I can make do with the status quo.

And you choose to supplement the trait’s short coming with these? […] Seriously?

“Seriously” is not an argument, rebuttal, or anything resembling a valid response to what I just said there.

So “much of the time” those skills are just bench-warmers when you could’ve taken something more useful.

What skill is bench-warming? Shadowstep is a stun breaker and king mobility. Infiltrator’s is a lesser version but a signet passive. Signet of Agility is 8.5% passive crit chance and a free clear/refill for you an allies in a jam (and 5 stacks of might with a CS build). Lyssa and condi removal food aren’t actually skills, so I don’t know if you are cherry-picking here.

You see, the reason why this is a problem to you is because you refuse to see the value of stealth.

Baloney. I use and love stealth… when I am using a stealth build. Stealth is awesome if you are D/D or P/D in particular. But It doesn’t have any value for someone using S/P who never really stealths in the first place. I mean, sure, I’ll slot in Shadow Refuge if I need to sneak into a tower or bypass a zerg, but I’m not running around with it on my bar 100% of the time.

Am I getting this point across to you yet?

You seem to misunderstood what I wrote there.

I understood what you wrote, and rejected it. The point here is that your opinions need to be labeled as such: you have no business whatsoever making sweeping generalizations/proclamations about a build you don’t even have experience with. You’re making valuation judgments based upon your own misunderstandings.

You got this one backwards. 15pts into SA removes the necessity to dodge attacks. The reason you dodge attacks with Acro build is because even with your boon duration and larger health pool, you’re still taking more damage. The reduces damage from toughness and the increase in healing power traiting to SA is enough to ensure that dodging an attack is less necessary — meaning you are dealing more damage.

See above. Don’t ask me for my build and then ignore the stats.

Oh, and I guess I should add one more thing, since I guess you’re not familiar with S/P.

Black Powder is the #5 skill on S/P. It blinds the target, throws down a Smoke field, keeps re-blinding people in the AOE for the duration, and heals for 414+ with Assassin’s Reward. When a target is blinded, they automatically miss their next attack. It’s useful to protect yourself while still being able to deal damage.

I also like it for stomping Guards, Warriors, Necros, Engineers, and Rangers.

Viking Jorun.5413:

You can’t avoid conditions on you, and chances are if you’re in Acro you’re not in SA, meaning you don’t have much condition removal. I think it would be balanced to add condition removal every 4 or 5 initiative spent on top of the current Assassin’s Reward healing, which would justify it as a grandmaster trait and add sustainability for acrobatics thieves, because in the current state, you’re dodging until you mess up and get bursts down or you kill them fast enough. With condition specs this is an entirely different ordeal, as the damage still ticks down while you’re dodging and healing with Assassin’s Reward.

Pain Response is really strong, if unreliable much of the time. So if they were going to buff Assassin’s Reward with condi removal and it could be stacked with Pain Response, I could see it removing 2-3 conditions every 10 initiative spent, with possibly an internal cooldown on top of it. It’s really harsh, but with a condi removing Assassin’s Reward, Pain Response, Shadowstep return along with either Infiltrator’s Strike return or the condi removing Signet a Thief would have a ton of condi removal and still have 40 trait points to play with.

But a hypothetical Thief running Assassin’s Reward for condi defense couldn’t take both Sleight of Hand and Executioner, so it might be feasible.

Proven.2854:

Viking Jorun.5413:

You can’t avoid conditions on you, and chances are if you’re in Acro you’re not in SA, meaning you don’t have much condition removal. I think it would be balanced to add condition removal every 4 or 5 initiative spent on top of the current Assassin’s Reward healing, which would justify it as a grandmaster trait and add sustainability for acrobatics thieves, because in the current state, you’re dodging until you mess up and get bursts down or you kill them fast enough. With condition specs this is an entirely different ordeal, as the damage still ticks down while you’re dodging and healing with Assassin’s Reward.

Pain Response is really strong, if unreliable much of the time. So if they were going to buff Assassin’s Reward with condi removal and it could be stacked with Pain Response, I could see it removing 2-3 conditions every 10 initiative spent, with possibly an internal cooldown on top of it. It’s really harsh, but with a condi removing Assassin’s Reward, Pain Response, Shadowstep return along with either Infiltrator’s Strike return or the condi removing Signet a Thief would have a ton of condi removal and still have 40 trait points to play with.

But a hypothetical Thief running Assassin’s Reward for condi defense couldn’t take both Sleight of Hand and Executioner, so it might be feasible.

Pain Response is a horrible trait. If it functions like Elementalist’s Burning Fire trait (Fire Magic – VIII) then it would be viable to pick up. Having only your current health as the trigger point is really bad.

Triggering the health regen from PR is nice and all, but the real reason someone would pick it up is for the condition removal. There are many ways to heal ourselves, but very limited on removing conditions. I would like to see PR to require at least one active condition before it triggers.

Assassin’s Reward to remove conditions would be a good buff too. I might actually spec for it.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Triggering the health regen from PR is nice and all, but the real reason someone would pick it up is for the condition removal.

How would someone who doesn’t use Pain Response, know why someone else would pick it up? It’s already been well-established here that you are very inexperienced with how this trait actually operates in the real world, not to mention that you’re hand-waving a ~1,700 health Regen, for no apparent reason other than that it’s inconvenient to your point. There could be more trait options for condition removal for Thieves, but as it stands there is still enough access through utilities/runes/food/skills to make up the difference.

Burning Fire was literally given its new functionality as of the last balance patch. It also has a 40s ICD and lacks the secondary healing effect, so it’s hardly superior to PR in those respects.

Fleet of foot should have a shorter internal cooldown. Maybe down to 5 seconds or something. 10 seconds is pretty ridiculous considering how fast you can be hit with those conditions.

Tachii.3506:

Fleet of foot should have a shorter internal cooldown. Maybe down to 5 seconds or something. 10 seconds is pretty ridiculous considering how fast you can be hit with those conditions.

Fleet of foot should be changed to all conditions, have its ICD changed to 5s, and be combined with Quick recovery. Neither is currently worth slotting, but combined and with these tweaks it would be worth slotting.

Edit: By “All Conditions” I mean the trait should remove a single condition of any type (not just weakness/cripple), not every condition.

evilapprentice.6379:

Fleet of foot should be changed to all conditions, have its ICD changed to 5s, and be combined with Quick recovery. Neither is currently worth slotting, but combined and with these tweaks it would be worth slotting.

That’s ludicrous. If you gave Thief omni-condition removal on dodge with a 5sec ICD, nobody would ever spec anything else in that slot, and you’d probably create the 20 Acro meta. You’d counter entire classes with one trait.

Interceptor.2653:

evilapprentice.6379:

Fleet of foot should be changed to all conditions, have its ICD changed to 5s, and be combined with Quick recovery. Neither is currently worth slotting, but combined and with these tweaks it would be worth slotting.

That’s ludicrous. If you gave Thief omni-condition removal on dodge with a 5sec ICD, nobody would ever spec anything else in that slot, and you’d probably create the 20 Acro meta. You’d counter entire classes with one trait.

Edit: I Just re-read my original response, and can see how it might be confusing – when I said “All Conditions” I meant not restricted to Just weakness and cripple – Just remove a single condition, regardless which condition it is. If that’s what you were referring to, ignore the rant below

Yes, because pulling a single condition when you dodge with an ICD of 5 seconds would be devastating. Except of course the other classes in the game that can easily clear conditions just as fast/faster than that (Cleansing Ire being the perfect comparison point, since its at the same tier level and arguably more powerful than my suggestion).

It would be strong (perhaps the ICD for the condition removal should be 10s, but that feels weak – maybe meet in the middle at 7-8s), but removing 1 condition isn’t going to “Counter entire classes with 1 trait”.

Burst condi specs won’t be hurt by having 1 of the 5-6 conditons they dropped on you in 1s being removed every 5s. The slower, more attrition style condition specs have much better condition application than 1 condition every 5s.

Maybe at 5s ICD quick recovery could be bumped up to GM (since that’s a change that might actually be strong enough to bump a trait up a tier) and AR can go back down to master where it belongs. My numbers might need some tweaking, but the general idea isn’t bad.

evilapprentice.6379:

Edit: I Just re-read my original response, and can see how it might be confusing – when I said “All Conditions” I meant not restricted to Just weakness and cripple – Just remove a single condition, regardless which condition it is. If that’s what you were referring to, ignore the rant below

That’s what I was referring to. But even in the case where it only removes one condition, a 5sec ICD in a Master trait is still too good.

1. Master tier
2. All conditions
3. 5sec ICD

Pick two. I’d prefer that Fleet of Foot just had a lower ICD and a moderately expanded set of conditions that it clears. It has Crippled and Weakness, I’d add other movement-based conditions like Immobilize, Chill, and maaaybe Torment to a possible pool of removed conditions, with some sensible priority order.

Interceptor.2653:

evilapprentice.6379:

Edit: I Just re-read my original response, and can see how it might be confusing – when I said “All Conditions” I meant not restricted to Just weakness and cripple – Just remove a single condition, regardless which condition it is. If that’s what you were referring to, ignore the rant below

That’s what I was referring to. But even in the case where it only removes one condition, a 5sec ICD in a Master trait is still too good.

1. Master tier
2. All conditions
3. 5sec ICD

Pick two. I’d prefer that Fleet of Foot just had a lower ICD and a moderately expanded set of conditions that it clears. It has Crippled and Weakness, I’d add other movement-based conditions like Immobilize, Chill, and maaaybe Torment to a possible pool of removed conditions, with some sensible priority order.

Cleansing Ire would like to say Hello.

There’s really no reason to restrict the conditions it removes when it’s on a five second ICD And tied to an action – if it removed the condition passively, I’d agree with you, but since it costs endurance to access the condition removal, it seems fair. I’d prefer all conditions and 7-8s ICD over 5s and limited condition removal – thief already has plenty of limited condition removal skills.

Well then Fleet of Foot doesn’t really make sense by the words chosen for the trait. It’s supposed to remove only conditions that compromises mobility, stuff like poison and confusion doesn’t really make sense. And I’d also find it a bit overpowered. Traits in acrobatics is mostly about evasion and mobility, an omni-condition removal trait do seem a bit OP to me as well.

evilapprentice.6379:

Cleansing Ire would like to say Hello.

Cleansing Ire can walk in the door when it’s tied to endurance instead of Adrenaline.

There’s really no reason to restrict the conditions it removes when it’s on a five second ICD And tied to an action – if it removed the condition passively, I’d agree with you, but since it costs endurance to access the condition removal, it seems fair. I’d prefer all conditions and 7-8s ICD over 5s and limited condition removal – thief already has plenty of limited condition removal skills.

It costs endurance, but any spec with FoF has Feline Grace, plus access to Vigor on heal and Signet of Agility. Evading doesn’t even require that you have a target, or otherwise burn a CD or put yourself into danger by attacking someone. Endurance is the only pre-condition.

Limiting FoF to movement-based conditions sets it opposite Pain Response (which I wouldn’t be opposed to tweaking either), and forces you to either make a choice about what you want to be vulnerable to, or go 30 points and give up your GM slot to double up.

30 into acro is still great for s/d. The cast time on IR means our survivability dropped, going 25/30/0/15/0 would just drop it further without giving enough dps to compensate properly. That being said, I’ve ran with assassins reward (after wasting time with the kitten skill hard to catch) and it’s decent. However, quick pockets is right there and the utility it gives is better than the healing from AR. Extra initiative for porting or evading, another cluster bomb available, better chance of infiltrator’s arrow being available when you need to bail in a hurry… etc.

Assassin’s reward needs to be a viable option over quick pockets and right now it’s lacking. More healing or adding condition removal would be cool.

Tachii.3506:

Fleet of foot should have a shorter internal cooldown. Maybe down to 5 seconds or something. 10 seconds is pretty ridiculous considering how fast you can be hit with those conditions.

Why even bother with Fleet of Foot if Pain Response is so godly and is a must have for the health regen even if it failed to remove damaging conditions?

Fleet of Foot needs to get a major buff to compete with the likes of Pain Response. If you are already putting 20 pts into Acro, you must have Pain Response. Someone here is really convince with that.