Guild Wars 2

Narcarsis.5739:

PureLuck.8795:

Thanks for sharing your builds and opinions Caed. I can’t however, understand how you can say Thief is ‘fine’. I’m not a PvP god, but before HoT I could definitely hold my own playing Thief. Nowadays I feel completely useless. Can’t kill except in +1 situations, all I can do is run and decap. Now, this could be attributed to my skill level, but upon viewing some recordings of your streams I notice that you don’t get a lot of kills yourself. For a player with as much experience in this class as yourself, this can’t be a good sign? Maybe I’ve been watching the wrong recordings, or we differ in our views on the Thief’s roll.

I’ve tried different builds and playstyles for a couple of days, but nothing seems viable enough to warrant me spending time playing Thief. I’m beginning to feel like the concept of the Thief is flawed. It’s either too powerful, or too weak. It’s squishyness is not balancing out the massive damage it used to have when played right, because of it’s stealth and mobility. Take away/nerf the damage and all you have left is a squishy class that’s only strength is mobilty. This, I sadly conclude, is quite an accurate description of Thief’s current state.

I really hope I’m wrong.

I have a disclaimer but it’s fairly easily missed. I do not play the same in queues as I do in tournaments. Queues are usually just for fun, I mess around and I put myself in situations I wouldn’t in a competitive setting just to see certain situations and try to improve or pick up on things I can work on. Realistically speaking Thief match-ups are back to what they used to be somewhere in 2013. Things are fairly 50-50 across a lot of classes, with DH, Druid, and Tempest having advantages (5-95 or Higher, 15-85, 30-70 respectively) and Thief holding advantage over Reaper, Mesmer, and Warrior (75-25, 70-30, 95-5). Keep in mind these numbers are just estimates and more towards my interpretation. It’s almost always better to avoid 1v1 on Thief because you can out-rotate and attempt to snowball the map before your opponent can catch up.

Thief also holds a place in team fights. It has good survivability, can stick on targets, can get out of fights, can instant stomp, and has huge amounts of cleave. I don’t see it as overly squishy – I think Reapers, Dragonhunters (depends a little on their utilities), and Warriors are far easier to lock down and kill as a team under most circumstances. They have few options for escaping being trained in comparison to Thief.

So yea, I honestly think Thief is fine competitively. It’s not bad, it’s not the best – but it’s more than viable and brings some unique things (impact strike, mainly). If other classes get toned down it will be in a good spot. I don’t think it needs buffs, at all. I don’t want more power creep in the game because it’s a lot harder to balance at that point. I think the overall design of Daredevil is good, and the only thing I don’t like is staff 2 (Weakening Charge) due to it being extremely clunky.

I watched the qualifier matches for NA and seeing you play thief was nice to see tbh. Problem remains though is after I paid attention to your play in the matches I honestly don’t see what thief offers over the other classes. Yes you have SB5 for mobility but in the team fights you were a non factor compared to other available classes. I honestly got the impression that you would have contributed more on a different class.

It will be interesting to see how thieves actually hold up in pro league though.

Good luck

Azukas.1426:

Narcarsis.5739:

PureLuck.8795:

Thanks for sharing your builds and opinions Caed. I can’t however, understand how you can say Thief is ‘fine’. I’m not a PvP god, but before HoT I could definitely hold my own playing Thief. Nowadays I feel completely useless. Can’t kill except in +1 situations, all I can do is run and decap. Now, this could be attributed to my skill level, but upon viewing some recordings of your streams I notice that you don’t get a lot of kills yourself. For a player with as much experience in this class as yourself, this can’t be a good sign? Maybe I’ve been watching the wrong recordings, or we differ in our views on the Thief’s roll.

I’ve tried different builds and playstyles for a couple of days, but nothing seems viable enough to warrant me spending time playing Thief. I’m beginning to feel like the concept of the Thief is flawed. It’s either too powerful, or too weak. It’s squishyness is not balancing out the massive damage it used to have when played right, because of it’s stealth and mobility. Take away/nerf the damage and all you have left is a squishy class that’s only strength is mobilty. This, I sadly conclude, is quite an accurate description of Thief’s current state.

I really hope I’m wrong.

I have a disclaimer but it’s fairly easily missed. I do not play the same in queues as I do in tournaments. Queues are usually just for fun, I mess around and I put myself in situations I wouldn’t in a competitive setting just to see certain situations and try to improve or pick up on things I can work on. Realistically speaking Thief match-ups are back to what they used to be somewhere in 2013. Things are fairly 50-50 across a lot of classes, with DH, Druid, and Tempest having advantages (5-95 or Higher, 15-85, 30-70 respectively) and Thief holding advantage over Reaper, Mesmer, and Warrior (75-25, 70-30, 95-5). Keep in mind these numbers are just estimates and more towards my interpretation. It’s almost always better to avoid 1v1 on Thief because you can out-rotate and attempt to snowball the map before your opponent can catch up.

Thief also holds a place in team fights. It has good survivability, can stick on targets, can get out of fights, can instant stomp, and has huge amounts of cleave. I don’t see it as overly squishy – I think Reapers, Dragonhunters (depends a little on their utilities), and Warriors are far easier to lock down and kill as a team under most circumstances. They have few options for escaping being trained in comparison to Thief.

So yea, I honestly think Thief is fine competitively. It’s not bad, it’s not the best – but it’s more than viable and brings some unique things (impact strike, mainly). If other classes get toned down it will be in a good spot. I don’t think it needs buffs, at all. I don’t want more power creep in the game because it’s a lot harder to balance at that point. I think the overall design of Daredevil is good, and the only thing I don’t like is staff 2 (Weakening Charge) due to it being extremely clunky.

I watched the qualifier matches for NA and seeing you play thief was nice to see tbh. Problem remains though is after I paid attention to your play in the matches I honestly don’t see what thief offers over the other classes. Yes you have SB5 for mobility but in the team fights you were a non factor compared to other available classes. I honestly got the impression that you would have contributed more on a different class.

It will be interesting to see how thieves actually hold up in pro league though.

Good luck

This! Caed is good at playing his build and his team play is perfect. But you got exactly my point of view.

Thanks for the reply Caed, it clears things up for me. Unfortunately I have to agree with those just above me and conclude that even though Thief can cope, it can’t fairly compete at this moment.

Best of luck!

Is staff rly same dps as dagger? staff has 1/2 sec casting time while dagger 1/4!

Urejt.5648:

Is staff rly same dps as dagger? staff has 1/2 sec casting time while dagger 1/4!

There’s a lot more factors in DPS than cast time on the AA. =P

Deadly traper with DH runes for 10insta might with more controled needle trap immobilize will give you same results (+5 vourneablity stacks)with only 4 sec in cd imho…
Tripwire same if not better with kd,you do have to sacrifice 3th utility tho

Just curious have you tried evasion runes?
Its not 100% crit as DD runes but it comes close…

Thank you very much @ OP

I really liked you’re reasoning on why you used certain things over other’s. I’ve also read a few of you’re comments further on.
After the patch hit I found S/P to be fitting me well, I will probably make some changes based on you’re guidance on trait selection and utility’s.

I would like to hear you’re thougts on S/P and also distracting daggers.
I’ve been running this build for the last 2 weeks or so but I don’t have exp with high tier players.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsaVn8lCdmilOBGOBkmiFaCzLM8FKDzVwP4IULAMhiAA-TJBFABCcCAEvMQN7PAwDAAA

Urejt.5648:

Is staff rly same dps as dagger? staff has 1/2 sec casting time while dagger 1/4!

Tool-tips can be deceiving. There are three parts to a cast. Pre-cast (or the actual cast time), Activation (the point in which the ability goes off, whether it’s a heal, the connection of an attack to an enemy, or the point where a projectile begins to fly in the air), and after-cast. After-cast is something people don’t notice, don’t talk about, and isn’t explained by tool-tips.

A lot of skills have after-cast, which affect the speed of which you can do anything after the activation point. A few abilities that have after-cast are Withdraw, Updraft, certain auto-attacks, Disabling Shot, Flanking Strike, and Vault. These are skills that you cannot break the animation through stow weapon. Vault, Flanking, and Disabling shot are somewhat counter-intuitive as their activation is actually instant at the point of the evade instead of the point of connection (compare Vault to Eviscerate, which you can stow. Eviscerate has a decent cast time but minimal after-cast where Vault actually is instant due to the evade. Skills like these properly record after-cast but skills with both cast times and after-cast only show cast times on the tool-tip). So while dagger autos show a faster cast time on the tool-tip there is a large after-cast on Wild Strike, resulting in the entire chain taking roughly 2 seconds – the same amount of time for the entire chain of staff which has minimal after-cast.

As a side note – one way to think about skills like Withdraw and Updraft is that you can’t cast them while dazed. True instant skills can be cast while CC’d (Steal, for example).

Mizu Misa.8730:

Thank you very much @ OP

I really liked you’re reasoning on why you used certain things over other’s. I’ve also read a few of you’re comments further on.
After the patch hit I found S/P to be fitting me well, I will probably make some changes based on you’re guidance on trait selection and utility’s.

I would like to hear you’re thougts on S/P and also distracting daggers.
I’ve been running this build for the last 2 weeks or so but I don’t have exp with high tier players.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsaVn8lCdmilOBGOBkmiFaCzLM8FKDzVwP4IULAMhiAA-TJBFABCcCAEvMQN7PAwDAAA

You will have a very hard time clearing conditions on this build, as you rely solely on Infiltrator’s Return. That leaves you little initiative to counter-pressure if you get focused and you cannot sustain playing defensively on a Thief. If you play this try to be diligent about evading conditions. I would also recommend taking Brawler’s Tenacity if you’re going to run that heal (not to mention the other physical skills). It will help to have the CDR. Personally I wouldn’t take Revealed Training on PW – maybe on D/P but you might expend too much initiative and endurance getting into stealth to make full use of it without putting yourself in a bad spot. As for Executioner I think Improvisation just outclasses it as I stated earlier, however it’s far from bad. You may have trouble getting someone to 50% so try to +1 fights that are already happening more than starting them.

Distracting Daggers just seems redundant to me when you have pistol OH. I don’t think it’s horrible but I find it hard to fit on a build and I think the only sets it may work well with are S/D and P/D. That’s just my experience though.

PureLuck.8795:

Thanks for the reply Caed, it clears things up for me. Unfortunately I have to agree with those just above me and conclude that even though Thief can cope, it can’t fairly compete at this moment.

Best of luck!

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, I can only offer a different perspective.

deda.8302:

Just curious have you tried evasion runes?
Its not 100% crit as DD runes but it comes close…

The boon duration on dodge are too minimal for the cool-down with the boons they give you. Crippling Strike from the rune set is also extremely underwhelming. I think the set would be extremely good if it were Protection and/or Aegis on dodge instead of Fury and Swiftness. Both of them overlap with Thrill of the Crime.

Recently I have been taking Thrill over Flanking as Haste only affects Staff auto attacks and Dust Strike. This let me swap off Daredevil runes and get a lot more utility out of my rune choice.

Narcarsis.5739:

Classes to avoid one on one: Tempest and Dragonhunter. Tempest is largely a waste of time and not an easy match-up. Dragonhunter is basically impossible (there is only one Thief build that can reliably kill DH and it’s bad in every other situation).

So you have no problem vs scrappers? i dont deny your skill Caed but 1v1 vs god of blocks and aoe is like sure lose…

I tried your build last night and as for theif with out stealth its best i tried so far .
My bigest problem is condi preasure and harder escape option than with d/p.

I tried Smoke screen as choice for 3th utility since staff #5 and dodge will stealth you for KD and is additional range protection .

off topic
I hoped that i can make somekind of bunker thief with DD ,no reliable stab aegis and condi clean are problems again,im very sad about this,any 1 have something that works?

I think this thread is utter garbage and cancer to all thieves and players who enjoy thief gameplay. This thread gives people the completely wrong idea, that thief might be viable.

Thief isn’t viable by any means, gets countered by almost all meta builds and has too many flaws.

I want to get this question answered:
What does thief do better than other classes? Why should anyone pick a thief in his comp?

assassin.7895:

I think this thread is utter garbage and cancer to all thieves and players who enjoy thief gameplay. This thread gives people the completely wrong idea, that thief might be viable.

Thief isn’t viable by any means, gets countered by almost all meta builds and has too many flaws.

I want to get this question answered:
What does thief do better than other classes? Why should anyone pick a thief in his comp?

Maybe chill and have a bit of fun? If you constantly worry about what’s viable you just get hacked off with the game in my experience. Find something you like about the class, build around it, and turn off whispers when in PvP.

While optimal builds are always viable, viable builds don’t have to be optimal.

I think the thief is good at decapping and +1 fights. But is that what thief is supposed to be? When we look at the thief, i look at assassins, rogues etc. What do they excel at? high single target burst and 1v1. Anet actually describes the profession on the site as someone who excels at 1v1’s, which ironically isn’t really our strength, and imo our burst is not high compared to what other classes can offer in single target/aoe burst. So while the thief is good at decapping and +1, I don’t believe the thief lives up to the image that we have in our minds when we think of thieves.

Narcarsis.5739:

Mizu Misa.8730:

Thank you very much @ OP

I really liked you’re reasoning on why you used certain things over other’s. I’ve also read a few of you’re comments further on.
After the patch hit I found S/P to be fitting me well, I will probably make some changes based on you’re guidance on trait selection and utility’s.

I would like to hear you’re thougts on S/P and also distracting daggers.
I’ve been running this build for the last 2 weeks or so but I don’t have exp with high tier players.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsaVn8lCdmilOBGOBkmiFaCzLM8FKDzVwP4IULAMhiAA-TJBFABCcCAEvMQN7PAwDAAA

You will have a very hard time clearing conditions on this build, as you rely solely on Infiltrator’s Return. That leaves you little initiative to counter-pressure if you get focused and you cannot sustain playing defensively on a Thief. If you play this try to be diligent about evading conditions. I would also recommend taking Brawler’s Tenacity if you’re going to run that heal (not to mention the other physical skills). It will help to have the CDR. Personally I wouldn’t take Revealed Training on PW – maybe on D/P but you might expend too much initiative and endurance getting into stealth to make full use of it without putting yourself in a bad spot. As for Executioner I think Improvisation just outclasses it as I stated earlier, however it’s far from bad. You may have trouble getting someone to 50% so try to +1 fights that are already happening more than starting them.

Distracting Daggers just seems redundant to me when you have pistol OH. I don’t think it’s horrible but I find it hard to fit on a build and I think the only sets it may work well with are S/D and P/D. That’s just my experience though.

I was mostly aware of this from you’re previous posts and allready adapted a lot of it.
I should have asked, what do you think about S/P vs Staff in general?

Jugglemonkey.8741:

assassin.7895:

I think this thread is utter garbage and cancer to all thieves and players who enjoy thief gameplay. This thread gives people the completely wrong idea, that thief might be viable.

Thief isn’t viable by any means, gets countered by almost all meta builds and has too many flaws.

I want to get this question answered:
What does thief do better than other classes? Why should anyone pick a thief in his comp?

Maybe chill and have a bit of fun? If you constantly worry about what’s viable you just get hacked off with the game in my experience. Find something you like about the class, build around it, and turn off whispers when in PvP.

While optimal builds are always viable, viable builds don’t have to be optimal.

I’m (everyone is) trying to win, not to lose and when I’m putting my team at a major disadvantage, simply by choosing to play thief, thief is far from optimal and definitely not viable. I’m not that selfish kitten that doesn’t care about being a dead weight to your team. As a consequence i’m not playing Thief anymore.

Btw: That is not related to me at all, I posted that for a greater cause.

AkaXan.1096:

I think the thief is good at decapping and +1 fights. But is that what thief is supposed to be? When we look at the thief, i look at assassins, rogues etc. What do they excel at? high single target burst and 1v1. Anet actually describes the profession on the site as someone who excels at 1v1’s, which ironically isn’t really our strength, and imo our burst is not high compared to what other classes can offer in single target/aoe burst. So while the thief is good at decapping and +1, I don’t believe the thief lives up to the image that we have in our minds when we think of thieves.

+1 isn’t particularly a strength of thief now, Rev & DH can have insane mobility and are also able to follow you, when you try to decap.

+1 is still a strength of thief when you can arrive in stealth or port in from over 2k range for a burst. As for people following you, anyone can. You need to pick your moments, and, try to disengage in stealth without being too obvious that you’re disengaging (unless of course you’re trying to escape, then who cares; as long as you survive). Thief is just as fine as it was 1.5 years ago, with the safety nets from the previous meta removed. Just as it was then, you need good support to make what you bring count.

We do still have high single target burst, and can chase targets down. What we excel at is mobility and deception, and we still have the easiest access to stealth.

assassin.7895:

I want to get this question answered:
What does thief do better than other classes? Why should anyone pick a thief in his comp?

-Impact Strike has no comparison – it’s by far one of the best clutch abilities in the game.
-Thief mobility still is better than any other class. If you pair that with stealth nothing will chase you (Rev/DH can’t chase without a target).
-Thief cleave on staff is probably the highest out of viable builds available to classes
-Thief gives team mates evades (nothing else will refill endurance instantly).

Yes, other classes are good and while Thief is no longer necessary to be competitive that doesn’t mean that it’s weak. People are too used to being able to do everything they wanted without much thought or skill. The class is in a good spot, it requires good decision making and strong mechanics. Sure, other classes are easier to play but that doesn’t mean that they’re able to do more. It’s another skill floor vs skill ceiling debate.

Narcarsis.5739:

assassin.7895:

I want to get this question answered:
What does thief do better than other classes? Why should anyone pick a thief in his comp?

-Impact Strike has no comparison – it’s by far one of the best clutch abilities in the game.
-Thief mobility still is better than any other class. If you pair that with stealth nothing will chase you (Rev/DH can’t chase without a target).
-Thief cleave on staff is probably the highest out of viable builds available to classes
-Thief gives team mates evades (nothing else will refill endurance instantly).

Yes, other classes are good and while Thief is no longer necessary to be competitive that doesn’t mean that it’s weak. People are too used to being able to do everything they wanted without much thought or skill. The class is in a good spot, it requires good decision making and strong mechanics. Sure, other classes are easier to play but that doesn’t mean that they’re able to do more. It’s another skill floor vs skill ceiling debate.

This is true. Loving your build Caed. I did change one trait out though. Switched out Staff master for Escapist’s Absolution. It does a little less damage, but I like the extra condi cleanse. Guess I just feel safer with it.

Narcarsis.5739:

assassin.7895:

I want to get this question answered:
What does thief do better than other classes? Why should anyone pick a thief in his comp?

-Impact Strike has no comparison – it’s by far one of the best clutch abilities in the game.
-Thief mobility still is better than any other class. If you pair that with stealth nothing will chase you (Rev/DH can’t chase without a target).
-Thief cleave on staff is probably the highest out of viable builds available to classes
-Thief gives team mates evades (nothing else will refill endurance instantly).

Yes, other classes are good and while Thief is no longer necessary to be competitive that doesn’t mean that it’s weak. People are too used to being able to do everything they wanted without much thought or skill. The class is in a good spot, it requires good decision making and strong mechanics. Sure, other classes are easier to play but that doesn’t mean that they’re able to do more. It’s another skill floor vs skill ceiling debate.

Not nit picking but in the qualifier match, while you played good, you weren’t much of a factor in that match up. I watched you get easily pressured off point and have to be carried by the tankier classes in your comp.

I’m very interested in how thief plays out in actual pro league where the disparity of talent isn’t so large as in the match you guys played. I mean what would have happened if they played 2 points from the get go?

Don’t take this personal as my observation in no way reflects you as a player but illustrates the performance of the class instead.

Azukas.1426:

Not nit picking but in the qualifier match, while you played good, you weren’t much of a factor in that match up. I watched you get easily pressured off point and have to be carried by the tankier classes in your comp.

I’m very interested in how thief plays out in actual pro league where the disparity of talent isn’t so large as in the match you guys played. I mean what would have happened if they played 2 points from the get go?

Don’t take this personal as my observation in no way reflects you as a player but illustrates the performance of the class instead.

You’re not going to offend me. I honestly didn’t play well at all. I’m still learning how to manage evades, not to mention landing them consistently, as well as landing vaults. But the value of Impact Strike increases tremendously against bunker comps for ensuring kills. It allows you to begin to snowball the map with numbers advantage and can negate the res potential that those comps offer.

As for getting pressured that’s on my poor positioning and eating things I shouldn’t have. We don’t have any tanky players after the tempest in our comp by the way – so for getting carried I’d argue that aspect.

Thief still offers good damage against bunkers, even through protection – and it comes back to securing your kills with Impact Strike. You could replace a thief with a Revenant, but against bunkers it wouldn’t provide as much unless you went with Demon stance for boon rip, and even then that could hinder your survivability and doesn’t secure your kills after you down them. If players learn how and when to Impact Strike the affect of negating downstate is huge. There are trade-offs to everything and you just have to weigh what you value in a composition to make a decision on what to bring.

Just to clarify and reiterate, I think the people who play Thief are just too used to being considered required and aren’t adapting to the meta. Thief isn’t required to be competitive anymore but that doesn’t mean it’s weak. Utilize what it offers and adapt to other people whether it’s through your build or your play-style (or both).

I think a lot of people don’t like it that this class isn’t desinged to go bulls deep like others can, and do – and hate it that non thieves ‘request, even demand’ to change class’s. why? as far as i am aware i play this game for my own ejoyment, not to make other people have an easier game and reroll.

also reading this thread people think that thief is an anssasin or a rouge. we have daggers and we can (use to) burst people but that wasn’t what i thought this class was mainly about. the early days where people could do that were just signet builds. i see a thief as a sneaky fker that goes around with out being spotted and then can escape when they at will, who wants a thief (burgeler) thats noisy and clumsy.

the times where we could solo spike people are long gone now and people just dont want to move on and adapt.

Staff thief is decent… DH are really tough…

Tempest also.

Problem is you have to run staff for those evade frames…

I pretty much spam 5 or 1 in conjunction with evades. I put a 3 in there if I get rooted. 4 and 2 for the most part a useless.

I think all weapon types should feel as evasive as staff and provide endurance on using skills…

DD is fun but staff is lame…

Narcarsis.5739:

assassin.7895:

I want to get this question answered:
What does thief do better than other classes? Why should anyone pick a thief in his comp?

-Impact Strike has no comparison – it’s by far one of the best clutch abilities in the game.
-Thief mobility still is better than any other class. If you pair that with stealth nothing will chase you (Rev/DH can’t chase without a target).
-Thief cleave on staff is probably the highest out of viable builds available to classes
-Thief gives team mates evades (nothing else will refill endurance instantly).

Yes, other classes are good and while Thief is no longer necessary to be competitive that doesn’t mean that it’s weak. People are too used to being able to do everything they wanted without much thought or skill. The class is in a good spot, it requires good decision making and strong mechanics. Sure, other classes are easier to play but that doesn’t mean that they’re able to do more. It’s another skill floor vs skill ceiling debate.

The mobility might be better, but what about the rest? Any utility for your team except agility signet? How do you rez under AoE?
How do you even stealth with your build? If you use BP and/or get revealed, your decapping potential is already gone?

The cleave is hardly good in my opinion. How do you hit multiple enemies? The only time I reliably did, the enemy was downed. DPS is ok, but if you cleave, you’re very vulnerable. Just look at the awesome skill 5 staff Rev skill. Has serious damage and serious CC. Auto attacks hit hard as well, all while having several strong stuns with low cast time. Not talking about Condi Rev, because I’ve got no idea about that.
If a trap from DH hits you and interrupts your Vault/WS, what do you do? You just wasted initiative, I’d have a problem.

If you use D/P, your damage is simply too low to be able to compete with other classes.

By the way, Druid has more stealth than staff thief and the smokefield can be blasted. Other classes can use alacrity much better as well. Chrono is able to give you endurance and can make you passive dodge for 3-6 seconds, which is much stronger imo. You’re able to do damage while dodging and downed can be protected from cleave.

__

If you look at this statistic: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/EU-Pro-League-Meta

Why does noone play thief? You can’t tell me noone of the best thieves on EU put thoughts and training on thief. I’ve actually seen Sindrener on staff thief and it seems like he didn’t stick with it, moved to Revenant. Also Red Levin played D/P in monthly tournament and he contributed very little to the team, he plays Revenant now.

assassin.7895:

The mobility might be better, but what about the rest? Any utility for your team except agility signet? How do you rez under AoE?
How do you even stealth with your build? If you use BP and/or get revealed, your decapping potential is already gone?

The cleave is hardly good in my opinion. How do you hit multiple enemies? The only time I reliably did, the enemy was downed. DPS is ok, but if you cleave, you’re very vulnerable. Just look at the awesome skill 5 staff Rev skill. Has serious damage and serious CC. Auto attacks hit hard as well, all while having several strong stuns with low cast time. Not talking about Condi Rev, because I’ve got no idea about that.
If a trap from DH hits you and interrupts your Vault/WS, what do you do? You just wasted initiative, I’d have a problem.

If you use D/P, your damage is simply too low to be able to compete with other classes.

By the way, Druid has more stealth than staff thief and the smokefield can be blasted. Other classes can use alacrity much better as well. Chrono is able to give you endurance and can make you passive dodge for 3-6 seconds, which is much stronger imo. You’re able to do damage while dodging and downed can be protected from cleave.

__

If you look at this statistic: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/EU-Pro-League-Meta

Why does noone play thief? You can’t tell me noone of the best thieves on EU put thoughts and training on thief. I’ve actually seen Sindrener on staff thief and it seems like he didn’t stick with it, moved to Revenant. Also Red Levin played D/P in monthly tournament and he contributed very little to the team, he plays Revenant now.

If you don’t agree that’s your opinion, and you’re entitled to it. It’s fairly safe to say arguing further would be fairly pointless since you pick and choose what points you want to argue and ignore a lot of what I say. However I will say I’m fairly sure Sindrener plays to his team comp, which is vastly different compared to the people I play with. I already mentioned that D/P had a very specific role. If people can’t adapt to that or their team doesn’t present them with that role then they won’t be useful on the weapon set.

Narcarsis.5739:

Azukas.1426:

Not nit picking but in the qualifier match, while you played good, you weren’t much of a factor in that match up. I watched you get easily pressured off point and have to be carried by the tankier classes in your comp.

I’m very interested in how thief plays out in actual pro league where the disparity of talent isn’t so large as in the match you guys played. I mean what would have happened if they played 2 points from the get go?

Don’t take this personal as my observation in no way reflects you as a player but illustrates the performance of the class instead.

You’re not going to offend me. I honestly didn’t play well at all. I’m still learning how to manage evades, not to mention landing them consistently, as well as landing vaults. But the value of Impact Strike increases tremendously against bunker comps for ensuring kills. It allows you to begin to snowball the map with numbers advantage and can negate the res potential that those comps offer.

As for getting pressured that’s on my poor positioning and eating things I shouldn’t have. We don’t have any tanky players after the tempest in our comp by the way – so for getting carried I’d argue that aspect.

Thief still offers good damage against bunkers, even through protection – and it comes back to securing your kills with Impact Strike. You could replace a thief with a Revenant, but against bunkers it wouldn’t provide as much unless you went with Demon stance for boon rip, and even then that could hinder your survivability and doesn’t secure your kills after you down them. If players learn how and when to Impact Strike the affect of negating downstate is huge. There are trade-offs to everything and you just have to weigh what you value in a composition to make a decision on what to bring.

Just to clarify and reiterate, I think the people who play Thief are just too used to being considered required and aren’t adapting to the meta. Thief isn’t required to be competitive anymore but that doesn’t mean it’s weak. Utilize what it offers and adapt to other people whether it’s through your build or your play-style (or both).

Ok 1st of lets address impact strike. It seems to be the sole focus of your argument for. I agree impact strike is nice and when used properly can turn the tide of a fight, but unless you are finishing from standing or downing with the 2nd hit it’s no better than a quickness stomp.

So that means your spike with impact has to be absolutely PERFECT. Normally I would say this is completely feasible under old circumstances, but we have so many passive defenses right now it’s not. So yes while I do agree that impact strike is legit I do realize that it’s limited by how the skill functions vs today’s passive PvP world.

I really want to address that whole you playing bad statements next. I find it admirable you attribute what I pointed out wrong to your own play. That’s what you should do, but you have to admit that the players you faced don’t have to put nearly the effort you put in. That’s the problem that I’m getting at with thief. It seems you thieves have to out perform your opponent by a significant margin to win. While superb players on thief can do that consistently against 75% of the PvP community…the limitations are in fact real. We’ve seen significant drop off in thief representation in the qualifiers and pro leagues. The EU pro league does not have a single thief in it’s entirety. NA scene has more, but besides your team all teams with a thief lost.

This is a problem for your class and the game actually IMHO.

As for your team not being tanky. 2 necros with carrion are pretty kitten tanky with all their shrouds. Revs are by default tanky due to damage mitigation….yes even in marauder’s.

Either gratz on your wins and g’luck

If you can’t out play your opponent and be content with playing a much less forgiving class the time to reroll was 2 years ago

Thief has always been less forgiving and more mechanically intensive
“Work twice as hard for the same result”

The time for kittening and crying and asking Anet for buffs is long gone – simply not going to happen

Either make the class work or reroll

At least some of us are still using Thief and making it work we don’t need buffs

Narkodx.1472:

If you can’t out play your opponent and be content with playing a much less forgiving class the time to reroll was 2 years ago

Thief has always been less forgiving and more mechanically intensive
“Work twice as hard for the same result”

The time for kittening and crying and asking Anet for buffs is long gone – simply not going to happen

Either make the class work or reroll

At least some of us are still using Thief and making it work we don’t need buffs

Actually, if we (according to yourself) have to work twice as hard for the same result, we’d need buffs. That’s what balance is at least.

Tarkan.5609:

Narkodx.1472:

If you can’t out play your opponent and be content with playing a much less forgiving class the time to reroll was 2 years ago

Thief has always been less forgiving and more mechanically intensive
“Work twice as hard for the same result”

The time for kittening and crying and asking Anet for buffs is long gone – simply not going to happen

Either make the class work or reroll

At least some of us are still using Thief and making it work we don’t need buffs

Actually, if we (according to yourself) have to work twice as hard for the same result, we’d need buffs. That’s what balance is at least.

It was in quotes for a reason

Just because you have to press more buttons than a Necro to do the same damage does not mean it is UNBALANCED

What is balance anyway?! Honestly it is all in your head and everyone who claims that they would win more if Thief wasn’t “underpowered” is simply getting outplayed and can’t face the facts

Just reroll

Narkodx.1472:

Tarkan.5609:

Narkodx.1472:

If you can’t out play your opponent and be content with playing a much less forgiving class the time to reroll was 2 years ago

Thief has always been less forgiving and more mechanically intensive
“Work twice as hard for the same result”

The time for kittening and crying and asking Anet for buffs is long gone – simply not going to happen

Either make the class work or reroll

At least some of us are still using Thief and making it work we don’t need buffs

Actually, if we (according to yourself) have to work twice as hard for the same result, we’d need buffs. That’s what balance is at least.

It was in quotes for a reason

Just because you have to press more buttons than a Necro to do the same damage does not mean it is UNBALANCED

What is balance anyway?! Honestly it is all in your head and everyone who claims that they would win more if Thief wasn’t “underpowered” is simply getting outplayed and can’t face the facts

Just reroll

Well no thanks, gonna continue to main Thief/Engi.
However, I also didnt say anything in this thread about me thinking DD is inferior to other elite specs. I was just explaining the kind of logical problem you had in your post.

One of the most interesting aspects of this thread is how unwilling Caed is to say Thief is bad and how willing so many other Thief players are to label our class as bad. It would seem that part of the reason Caed has become so good at Thief is because he rarely blames his class. Instead, he looks at how he plays and takes more responsibility for his game than most. The sad part is some of us are looking at this like Caed is biased in a way which prevents him from accurately gauging how strong or weak Thief is rather than looking at ourselves like we’re biased against pushing ourselves to improve as players despite possible limitations of our class.

Ultimately, it’s partly a philosophical issue and Caed’s current personal philosophy seems to work considerably better than most of ours for improving as a player. This Q&A is an opportunity to learn more about this. This a better direction to take our responses than nit-picking and arguing as though Caed saying Thief is not good but also not bad will undermine the game’s future balance changes.

Narcarsis.5739:

Just to clarify and reiterate, I think the people who play Thief are just too used to being considered required and aren’t adapting to the meta. Thief isn’t required to be competitive anymore but that doesn’t mean it’s weak. Utilize what it offers and adapt to other people whether it’s through your build or your play-style (or both).

Pretty much what I say as well. I’ve yet to see a thief on EU run a decent build post HoT, yet they’ve labelled it as bad. I’ve also yet to see a comp suited to a thief; they seem to be more jumping to conclusions that revenant replaces it, everything else shuts it down, and too busy trying new comp styles. Such does not serve to prove something bad, just that it is not best suited to that particular group.

All the advantages a thief brought in the past are still brought. If the new build and playstyle required to continue don’t work for someone, they simply don’t work for that person. They don’t not work at all.

I’m still of the opinion that D/P is better than staff though. I think half the role staff seeks to perform can be done better with another class, so I would rather have it fulfilled by another class that can also bring something else such as sustain, and take a D/P thief that can add to the AoE pressure as well as being able to jump on out of position foes, bring better utility, and stealth travel the map.

rennlc.7346:

One of the most interesting aspects of this thread is how unwilling Caed is to say Thief is bad and how willing so many other Thief players are to label our class as bad. It would seem that part of the reason Caed has become so good at Thief is because he rarely blames his class. Instead, he looks at how he plays and takes more responsibility for his game than most. The sad part is some of us are looking at this like Caed is biased in a way which prevents him from accurately gauging how strong or weak Thief is rather than looking at ourselves like we’re biased against pushing ourselves to improve as players despite possible limitations of our class.

Ultimately, it’s partly a philosophical issue and Caed’s current personal philosophy seems to work considerably better than most of ours for improving as a player. This Q&A is an opportunity to learn more about this. This a better direction to take our responses than nit-picking and arguing as though Caed saying Thief is not good but also not bad will undermine the game’s future balance changes.

It’s part of being a competitive player. From my own experience (in another game) as one, this generally separated the good from the bad. Learn from your mistakes, practice, and keep a positive attitude. You can make anything viable given the right mentality. Unfortunately the masses are not willing to improve, and thus we find ourselves here.

Would it be alright to send you a mail from forums? I don’t want to derail the thread, and I want to do a final build checkover along with a minor discussion on a few points. Trying my best not to derail, but can post here if you want. Still trying to make pistols work and I noticed a few things that I need to work around. Not sure if this thread is still about build checking and playstyle advice anymore >.<

Proceeds to argument MEGA BUFF THIEF! Arrr.

Hi Caed,

I have no doubts about your Thief’s PVP capabilities, however I am concerned about PVE. Many believe that a Thief is redundant in Raids, and I personally also can’t see why anyone would pick a Thief over other classes for any of the roles in a Raid.

Do you have a different opinion?

Minlow.2874:

It’s part of being a competitive player. From my own experience (in another game) as one, this generally separated the good from the bad. Learn from your mistakes, practice, and keep a positive attitude. You can make anything viable given the right mentality. Unfortunately the masses are not willing to improve, and thus we find ourselves here.

It’s much more than part of being a competitive player. It’s also about keeping ahead of the part of our brains which makes us devalue and get tired of most anything we get accustomed to. Being human presents a problem of continually attempting to maintain certain standards of feeling well. GW2 is essentially a tool which can be used to help address this issue of needing to feel well.

What I’m curious about is if someone like Caed makes better use of GW2 for satisfying this purpose than the players who are more preoccupied with balance or the lack-thereof. By focusing some of his time on the removal of bad-habits and putting himself in situations he would like to test himself in, he’s continually changing his experience more quickly than other players which may make GW2 easier to continually enjoy.

What I’m REALLY curious about is what happens after people leave the game and are faced with other aspects of society that are similar to the issues we experience in GW2, such as a seemingly unfair or “unbalanced” part of our jobs, of a government ruling, etc. Will we continue to complain/blame and hope for the best? Use it as a challenge for getting more out of ourselves? There’s a whole culture being shaped and reshaped out of these kind of decisions, and I don’t think enough people realize it.

Wow, I, uh, kind of got off the rails of the thread. Sorry, Caed!

rennlc.7346:

One of the most interesting aspects of this thread is how unwilling Caed is to say Thief is bad and how willing so many other Thief players are to label our class as bad. It would seem that part of the reason Caed has become so good at Thief is because he rarely blames his class. Instead, he looks at how he plays and takes more responsibility for his game than most. The sad part is some of us are looking at this like Caed is biased in a way which prevents him from accurately gauging how strong or weak Thief is rather than looking at ourselves like we’re biased against pushing ourselves to improve as players despite possible limitations of our class.

Ultimately, it’s partly a philosophical issue and Caed’s current personal philosophy seems to work considerably better than most of ours for improving as a player. This Q&A is an opportunity to learn more about this. This a better direction to take our responses than nit-picking and arguing as though Caed saying Thief is not good but also not bad will undermine the game’s future balance changes.

He also seems to be saying that Thief is in a good place and doesn’t need to be buffed, it’s the OTHER professions that need to be brought down to earth. This seems like a reasonable perspective to take, especially given obviously overtuned specs like DH that are inevitably going to get nerfed.

Thief vs thief ends really fast most of the time and buffing the dmg will just speed things up even more, we builds that can pretty much 1 shot each other, do we realy need this on most builds if the dmg side of us was buffed? I don’t think so. Cead is right and a few of us have said it many times, thief is fine it’s just other classes out perform us now.

Unlike other classes, the thief builds are very specific to what the team as a whole is doing. Caed has presented a build and approach that works with a certain team comp to achieve a specific role. The D/P role requires a comp to set up that gank and stealth play.

If you are looking for a generic play and forget build, this is not the class for it. But you really have to tailor your skills and playstyle to your team to be effective.

Fine and OP and UP get thrown around so much nowadays there is not a balanced metric. Balance is perceived. Please stop calling things OP. Not even the most basic classic game of chess is balanced, because some one has to go first.

While I understand where Caed is coming from, in my opinion, you simply cannot look at the class in an MMO in a vacuum when talking about balance as its all about relativity.

Its like trying to judge the value of the number “1” and saying “1” is fine.

Yes “1” might be fine in and of itself, but compared to the numbers “2” or “3” it is a small number. Compared to the number “0” it is big, and overall in the sequence of “0, 1, 2, and 3” “1” is a relatively small number.

Yes thief is “fine,” and the other classes need to be toned down. Alternatively Thief is underpowered relative to the other classes.

That said I also do agree with caed’s stance on power creep in the overall game, and would prefer the game not to have so much of it.

Caed is trolling players into playing thief. He played rev in pro legue.

Urejt.5648:

Caed is trolling players into playing thief. He played rev in pro legue.

In PL you play to win, not to accommodate. If Thief would cause him to lose, yet Rev would cause him to win, its only natural he play Rev. Balancing is for after PL, not during.

It is a serious disrespect to someone who is pro league capable, who comes and hosts a Q&A to help out, to say that they are “trolling” because they played to win.

xavios.3601:

Urejt.5648:

Caed is trolling players into playing thief. He played rev in pro legue.

In PL you play to win, not to accommodate. If Thief would cause him to lose, yet Rev would cause him to win, its only natural he play Rev. Balancing is for after PL, not during.

It is a serious disrespect to someone who is pro league capable, who comes and hosts a Q&A to help out, to say that they are “trolling” because they played to win.

I just thought he was trolling ^^ I never played Rev in Pro Leagues, and I’m pretty bad at Rev.

Caed,

You mentioned further up that you dropped daredevil runes for runes that offer more utility; care to share what runes you’ve been trying out?

Ink.9058:

Caed,

You mentioned further up that you dropped daredevil runes for runes that offer more utility; care to share what runes you’ve been trying out?

Pack, Durability, Hoelbrak, Svanir (Double Necro), and any of the above mentioned. Runes can be used to slot against what you’re facing and help mitigate any weaknesses against those specific classes.

Narcarsis.5739:

Pack, Durability, Hoelbrak, Svanir (Double Necro), and any of the above mentioned. Runes can be used to slot against what you’re facing and help mitigate any weaknesses against those specific classes.

Interesting. What are your thoughts about Wurm runes?

Honest question.

Do you think there’s a place for D/D thieves anymore? It’s a setup I’ve always loved since starting this game, and always seem to fall back on it. It generally serves me somewhat well in WvW.

Updated my stream with my version of competitive D/P. Palm Strike is more for queues/fun.