Guild Wars 2

Now that Rev also has a Counter Stealth… aka Reveal for 5sec.

More and more classes are getting skills to reveal us. When is it too much for a thief?
So just a Community question, Are we getting too much Counter Stealth?

Thief has only 3 ways to defend its self.

• Evade
• Blind
• Stealth

Thief has ZERO

• Blocks
• Invuls
• Resistance

I dont mind Counters to stealth, but giving a Reveal time LONGER than the actual normal reveal is what I dont like.

Revealed should always on low duration (3sec) I’m pretty sure they are not doing this because of thief but rather mesmer after they buffed PU while they gutted SA and Acro. I would have rather them de-stealth me without applying revealed I still wasted my initiative and CDs so that would be enough.

The skills that are getting it are very situational and questionable but I just hate the possibility that every class could eventually get revealed that it might just become a hex as common as a condition.

Sagat.3285:

Revealed should always on low duration (3sec) I’m pretty sure they are not doing this because of thief but rather mesmer after they buffed PU while they gutted SA and Acro. I would have rather them de-stealth me without applying revealed I still wasted my initiative and CDs so that would be enough.

The skills that are getting it are very situational and questionable but I just hate the possibility that every class could eventually get revealed that it might just a hex as common as a condition.

I worry about this too, and is why Im talking about it.

Forgive me for being ignorant of this, but what did Revanant get that could apply reveal?

Oslaf Beinir.5842:

Forgive me for being ignorant of this, but what did Revanant get that could apply reveal?

Glint new utility skill. Its a large AOE (Kinda of like a shout) that does Reveal and Blind.

I think thieves have been too reliant on stealth for too long, and if they keep adding counters to stealth, we’re gonna need some other kind of defense.

• we’re far too squishy at a baseline

• blinds are pretty situational (good against reaper, for example. try using it vs Hundred Blades or Rapid Fire, less so)

• our evades are more or less balanced around keeping us alive long enough to get back into stealth, and won’t last vary long by itself.

as it is, death blossom is negligible as an evade – and near impossible to time. some others are better, but not hugely.

if they’re gonna force us into standard combat, give us some standard tankiness.

Our defense is being able to reset the fight at any time you want, keep an enemy permanently blinded, and also a zero-cooldown ranged daze (hi rapid fire). Withdraw is another dodge and you have 50% vigor up time just from trickery.

Edit: Permanent blind may vary depending on enemy. Also Glint’s reveal is on a small radius (360), it’s nowhere near that of a shout (600)

Sunflowers.1729:

Our defense is being able to reset the fight at any time you want, keep an enemy permanently blinded, and also a zero-cooldown ranged daze (hi rapid fire)

Edit: Permanent blind may vary depending on enemy,

No sorry, we still have cooldowns, you still need to stealth to blind your enemy and that trait setup leaves you even more vulnerably than any other thief build – so yeah, the revealing in game is really bad for us and we got nothing in return.

Gray.9041:

I think thieves have been too reliant on stealth for too long, and if they keep adding counters to stealth, we’re gonna need some other kind of defense.

• we’re far too squishy at a baseline

• blinds are pretty situational (good against reaper, for example. try using it vs Hundred Blades or Rapid Fire, less so)

• our evades are more or less balanced around keeping us alive long enough to get back into stealth, and won’t last vary long by itself.

as it is, death blossom is negligible as an evade – and near impossible to time. some others are better, but not hugely.

if they’re gonna force us into standard combat, give us some standard tankiness.

With traits forcing us to use stealth that clears Condi, heals, blinds and give init etc…… Reveal just doesnt hurt our damage, but survivability too.

As a thief its very strong against us. You can already still damage us while we are stealth, taking away stealth from us just soft nerfs the class.

We DO need some Hard Defensive’s like you said. We need some type of standard Ignore X damage (Mist Form, Berserker stance, Endure Pain, Elixir S etc..)

Jana.6831:

Sunflowers.1729:

Our defense is being able to reset the fight at any time you want, keep an enemy permanently blinded, and also a zero-cooldown ranged daze (hi rapid fire)

Edit: Permanent blind may vary depending on enemy,

No sorry, we still have cooldowns, you still need to stealth to blind your enemy and that trait setup leaves you even more vulnerably than any other thief build – so yeah, the revealing in game is really bad for us and we got nothing in return.

You know shadow shot blinds right? All I’m saying is that you can keep your enemy blinded whenever you want.

Sunflowers.1729:

Our defense is being able to reset the fight at any time you want, keep an enemy permanently blinded, and also a zero-cooldown ranged daze (hi rapid fire). Withdraw is another dodge and you have 50% vigor up time just from trickery.

Edit: Permanent blind may vary depending on enemy. Also Glint’s reveal is on a small radius (360), it’s nowhere near that of a shout (600)

Thats the problem, thieves already are forced into play a set way, we dont have options like other classes, and if Anet keeps adding ways to deal with our ONLY means to stop Incoming damage we will be garbage.

You just explain the 1 build we have for us, if Anet gives a few classes a way to deal with that build, what are we going to do then?

Sunflowers.1729:

Jana.6831:

Sunflowers.1729:

Our defense is being able to reset the fight at any time you want, keep an enemy permanently blinded, and also a zero-cooldown ranged daze (hi rapid fire)

Edit: Permanent blind may vary depending on enemy,

No sorry, we still have cooldowns, you still need to stealth to blind your enemy and that trait setup leaves you even more vulnerably than any other thief build – so yeah, the revealing in game is really bad for us and we got nothing in return.

You know shadow shot blinds right? All I’m saying is that you can keep your enemy blinded whenever you want.

At the cost of Initiative, you cant just do it forever, and if they have a block, Resistance or a multi hit attack, it will mean nothing.

You cant just run around going “blind Blind Blind” and expect to win the fight.

Sunflowers.1729:

You know shadow shot blinds right? All I’m saying is that you can keep your enemy blinded whenever you want.

Faux already answered that, although I already said it in my post: we have cooldowns and initative costs as well and opponents can either dodge or block our attacks.

Edit: And as a matter of fact I’m not a D/P thief – can I live too, pls? Honestly, I feel lucky that most of my opponents in wvw don’t use the reavel skills and traits, otherwise I would stand no chance. It’s poor game design.

Most classes have only 1 or 2 strong builds anyway. What’s going to happen to Eles if people have more ways to permanently chill them, for instance?

EVERYONE is forced to play a set way. I don’t like it but don’t pretend it’s only us who gets shafted. I’m not saying that crappy builds like P/P shouldn’t get buffed, I’m saying to stop pretending that our best build (D/P) sucks too.

Sunflowers.1729:

Most classes have only 1 or 2 strong builds anyway. What’s going to happen to Eles if people have more ways to permanently chill them, for instance?

EVERYONE is forced to play a set way. I don’t like it but don’t pretend it’s only us who gets shafted. I’m not saying that crappy builds like P/P shouldn’t get buffed, I’m saying to stop pretending that our best build (D/P) sucks too.

scratching head where did you read that?

Faux.1937:

Thats the problem, thieves already are forced into play a set way, we dont have options like other classes, and if Anet keeps adding ways to deal with our ONLY means to stop Incoming damage we will be garbage.

You just explain the 1 build we have for us, if Anet gives a few classes a way to deal with that build, what are we going to do then?

From you?

Edit: Oh that, sorry. Not from you. But I’ve seen a few people keep saying that ’D/P sucks now, Thief is worst class.etc"

Not me, you’re currently talking to two people – and are missing the point.

Edit: No one ever said D/P sucks. Thief is pretty much at the bottom right now, yes. You can make one shot builds and die to condis or you can “permastealth” everything else is pretty much dead.

What point am I missing? The only actually viable counter stealth skill now is Lock On because you don’t have to take a valuable utility slot right now. You can take Sic Em, okay, but it wastes a utility slot for a 40s skill that does pretty much nothing else but reveal.

Other defenses like protection have counter skills like boon strip so why shouldn’t stealth have some too?

Edit: Damage isn’t a counter to stealth any more than damage is a counter to protection/regeneration/healing/anything that isn’t invincibility or blur

Sunflowers.1729:

What point am I missing? The only actually viable counter stealth skill now is Lock On because you don’t have to take a valuable utility slot right now.

But you have to take a master trait and are missing out on other traits – also I find easier to change a skill than to change one’s build.

The point is that there’s stealth counter given to some classes but thief don’t get anything in return, so we are being nerfed by that. We’re just lucky that a) 99% of all rangers I ever met suicide on my daggerstorm, no stealth needed for that and b) no one uses these skills/traits. Still, implementing them into this game is bad design.

Jana.6831:

Sunflowers.1729:

What point am I missing? The only actually viable counter stealth skill now is Lock On because you don’t have to take a valuable utility slot right now.

But you have to take a master trait and are missing out on other traits – also I find easier to change a skill than to change one’s build.

The point is that there’s stealth counter given to some classes but thief don’t get anything in return, so we are being nerfed by that. We’re just lucky that a) 99% of all rangers I ever met suicide on my daggerstorm, no stealth needed for that and b) no one uses these skills/traits. Still, implementing them into this game is bad design.

Why is it bad design? From that logic we should remove flanking strike’s boon strip too since it ‘counters’ guardian hammer’s defense

Sunflowers.1729:

What point am I missing? The only actually viable counter stealth skill now is Lock On because you don’t have to take a valuable utility slot right now. You can take Sic Em, okay, but it wastes a utility slot for a 40s skill that does pretty much nothing else but reveal.

Other defenses like protection have counter skills like boon strip so why shouldn’t stealth have some too?

Edit: Damage isn’t a counter to stealth any more than damage is a counter to protection/regeneration/healing/anything that isn’t invincibility or blur

Because too much is tied to theve’s stealth, still and that should be changed if reveal is brought into this game as a mechanic and that is the point

Edit: And do me a favour and don’t pretend that you are playing thief – the wrong people might believe you.

I knew someone would come up with that argument. Just because I actually put time into playing Thief and can kill people means I’m somehow lying? Want a screenshot? Or will you just say that I stole it from someone?

Sunflowers.1729:

I knew someone would come up with that argument. Just because I actually put time into playing Thief and can kill people means I’m somehow lying? Want a screenshot? Or will you just say that I stole it from someone?

Because you don’t seem to understand thieve’s mechanics – otherwise you would’ve gotten the point long ago.

Sunflowers.1729:

What point am I missing? The only actually viable counter stealth skill now is Lock On because you don’t have to take a valuable utility slot right now. You can take Sic Em, okay, but it wastes a utility slot for a 40s skill that does pretty much nothing else but reveal.

Other defenses like protection have counter skills like boon strip so why shouldn’t stealth have some too?

Edit: Damage isn’t a counter to stealth any more than damage is a counter to protection/regeneration/healing/anything that isn’t invincibility or blur

Engi, Ranger and now Rev all have Reveal skills/traits.

Sense Rev just got one, Im asking if reveal is to strong against thieves and if one day ALL classes will get reveal, thieves are so heavily traited for stealth it hurts us the most.

When is too much “Too much” so to say.

Also these skills and traits reveal us Longer than the normal reveal debuff which IMO is 100% terrible it should only reveal us for 3-4 sec like normal.

Damage is a count to Thief stealth, with Low HP, 0! blocks/defense and low HoT’s/condi removal if you just hit a thief 1 time with damage or put some condi’s stealth WONT help a thief.

Its like Poison vs healing, it is a counter, as Damage to Stealth is a counter when you cant stop the damage.

Enlighten me, please, which part do I not understand? That we lack blocks, invulnerability, and innate tankiness? Oh wait look at all those active defenses. Look at the number of classes who can run a completely glass setup and get away with it? Oh wait look Thief is in there.

I’m done with this argument, L2P and then come back.

Edit: And damage doesn’t break, remove, inhibit, or reduce the effectiveness of stealth in any way at all. To answer the question above I think they will probably add counter stealth skills to a few skills, but not very widespread. Look at boon strip – not every class has it and it’s in varying amounts. I’m guessing anti stealth skills will end up being like that.

Sunflowers.1729:

Enlighten me, please, which part do I not understand? That we lack blocks, invulnerability, and innate tankiness? Oh wait look at all those active defenses. Look at the number of classes who can run a completely glass setup and get away with it? Oh wait look Thief is in there.

I’m done with this argument, L2P and then come back.

DPS build? Guard, engi, warrior, mesmer, necro.

By glass I mean Zerk/murader amulet with at least 1 trait line for Damage. All classes/builds take some type of condi cleanse, break stun etc..

Thief is no execption we still take something to breakstun and condi clear.

Yeah so thieves are in there too, nobody is being forced to run full tanky gear because our active defenses are good. What’s your point?

Sunflowers.1729:

Yeah so thieves are in there too, nobody is being forced to run full tanky gear because our active defenses are good. What’s your point?

You are just arguing to argue now….

Ok yeah. Sorry. I still think I’m right though, but you can choose to disagree with it. Going to stop arguing with him cause it’s going nowhere.

Sunflowers.1729:

Ok yeah. Sorry. I still think I’m right though, but you can choose to disagree with it. Going to stop arguing with him cause it’s going nowhere.

Disagreeing is one thing Im ok with you disagreeing, Im just giving my PoV when you give yours, that is a good thing.

BUT when when I answer your question that had nothing to do with the topic and then giving a sarcasm response is not disagreement, its not debating, its nothing adding to the conversation.

Right. Sorry if it sounded that way, I was replying to Jana’s completely unfounded comments about not playing Thief at all.

Anyway once again I think stealth reveal will be slightly more common, similar to boon strip. People can take it in their traits and it will be on some weapons, but adding it in in such amounts will hardly send Thief to the garbage dump.

Sunflowers.1729:

Our defense is being able to reset the fight at any time you want

using stealth. the more reveals we get, the less true this is. plus, very few stealths last long enough to truly get away (Shadow Refuge is your best bet, and that’s so easy to counter with a few AoEs)

Sunflowers.1729:

keep an enemy permanently blinded, and also a zero-cooldown ranged daze (hi rapid fire).

both reliant (as far as I can tell) on having a very specific build (off-hand pistol). if we need to use a specific weapon to have any defense, there’s something wrong.

Sunflowers.1729:

Withdraw is another dodge and you have 50% vigor up time just from trickery.

and in order to take withdraw you have to sacrafice the ability to use other healing skills – like Hide in Shadows, which is one of the better stealths and more or less the best defence against damaging conditions.

so in order to have the defensive options you mention, we have to be:

• not fighting an Engineer, Ranger or Revenant (or they must lack the skills to reveal us)

• use a specific X/P build (which is a fairly narrow range of options)

• have little to no defence against conditions (which are already a pain to deal with)

• have very less access to stealth (via loss of HiS)

seems like a pretty restrictive set of requirements for the ability to defend on par with some classes passive defence.

Aren’t you missing the fact that the revenant, engi, or ranger has to take a very specific trait line or skill which is in itself a big sacrifice too? Instead of Sic Em you could take signet of stone, or another ability that is less situational. Glint is a control build, what if your build doesn’t use Glint? Surely you aren’t going to use it just to counter one or two classes. Lock On is on the same tier as Engi’s perma-swiftness trait, although to be fair that trait line is quite popular. And again I compare things to D/P because it’s the best and most common build right now.

Like, everyone always complains about Ele right? Well, they have to take 3 cantrips, water/arcane traits, one specific healing skill, and use a dagger in main hand. That’s a very restrictive set of requirements too, and of course they complain about it. But again it’s not just Thief. Rangers must take wilderness survival grandmaster trait for any condi removal, and Guardians must take shelter. Warriors must take fast hands and cleansing ire (not too sure about that one).

If you’re comparing against the best builds of other classes, you should use the Thief’s best build too. Like, if we compared D/P to zerker S/D ele it suddenly looks like we have a massive advantage simply because S/D ele isn’t very good.

Also Withdraw > Hide in Shadows – you already have lots of stealth easily available. Steal from a mesmer clone (which can’t dodge) and you get 2 free stealths. Stealth on steal is nice too, as well as the BP+HS combo which can be done as a last resort.

Sunflowers.1729:

Aren’t you missing the fact that the revenant, engi, or ranger has to take a very specific trait line or skill which is in itself a big sacrifice too? Instead of Sic Em you could take signet of stone, or another ability that is less situational. Glint is a control build, what if your build doesn’t use Glint? Surely you aren’t going to use it just to counter one or two classes. And again I compare things to D/P because it’s the best and most common build right now.

Also Withdraw > Hide in Shadows – you already have lots of stealth easily available. Steal from a mesmer clone (which can’t dodge) and you get 2 free stealths. Stealth on steal is nice too, as well as the BP+HS combo which can be done as a last resort.

Like, everyone always complains about Ele right? Well, they have to take 3 cantrips, water/arcane traits, one specific healing skill, and use a dagger in main hand. That’s a very restrictive set of requirements too, and of course they complain about it. But again it’s not just Thief. Rangers must take wilderness survival grandmaster trait for any condi removal, and Guardians must take shelter. If you’re comparing against the best builds of other classes, you should use the Thief’s best build too.

Sagat.3285:

The skills that are getting it are very situational and questionable but I just hate the possibility that every class could eventually get revealed that it might just become a hex as common as a condition.

Sigh…^This not to mention they are doing most likely after they decided their way to buff mesmer.

Sunflowers.1729:

Aren’t you missing the fact that the revenant, engi, or ranger has to take a very specific trait line or skill which is in itself a big sacrifice too? Instead of Sic Em you could take signet of stone, or another ability that is less situational. Glint is a control build, what if your build doesn’t use Glint? Surely you aren’t going to use it just to counter one or two classes. And again I compare things to D/P because it’s the best and most common build right now.

Also Withdraw > Hide in Shadows – you already have lots of stealth easily available. Steal from a mesmer clone (which can’t dodge) and you get 2 free stealths. Stealth on steal is nice too, as well as the BP+HS combo which can be done as a last resort.

so, I shouldn’t expect enemies to reveal me, because that requires specific traiting and skills, but I can assume I have lots of stealth, which requires… lots of specific traiting and skills? (both to have the stealth and to have the defensive bonuses from the stealth)

Sunflowers.1729:

Like, everyone always complains about Ele right? Well, they have to take 3 cantrips, water/arcane traits, one specific healing skill, and use a dagger in main hand. That’s a very restrictive set of requirements too, and of course they complain about it. But again it’s not just Thief. Rangers must take wilderness survival grandmaster trait for any condi removal, and Guardians must take shelter. If you’re comparing against the best builds of other classes, you should use the Thief’s best build too.

that’s in order to be at their Peak. I can – and do – run my elementalist with a staff, and no cantrips, and it’s still a good build. it still has a number of defensive options.

similarly, most of my characters I can run with non-peak/non-meta weapons without losing a good chunk of defence. (in most other classes, defence seems to be passive/slot skill-based, not weapon skill-based)

But can you run your elementalist without water, arcane, or cantrips? No, right? Similarly, I can run Thief with D/D which is not ‘optimal’. But I still maintain condi clear from SA trait line, lots of stealth, lots of burst damage, and only lose out on blinds and a daze. But try to run an acro/trickery/CS P/P build and you’ll die just as fast as that theoretical elementalist.

It’s true that changing from D/P to S/D loses a lot of defense like BP and head shot but obviously you get things like lots of teleports, evades, and immobilizes.

Also yes, I don’t see what’s wrong with people being able to counter stealth. Guardians can trait heavily for boons, and stack a bunch of them. Suddenly a necro can, with one single ability, change them all to conditions. Warriors can use cleansing ire (a GM trait) to counter conditions, but one well timed blind makes it useless. Engis can take both shield and toolkit to have lots of blocks, but an unblockable CC skill (necro mark) will mess them up. Just because you traited heavily for stealth doesn’t mean people shouldn’t be able to nullify it!

Sunflowers.1729:

But can you run your elementalist without water, arcane, or cantrips? No, right?

I can. I run arcane right now, but I could live without it.

also, by without water do you mean the traitline or the attunements?

Gray.9041:

Sunflowers.1729:

But can you run your elementalist without water, arcane, or cantrips? No, right?

I can. I run arcane right now, but I could live without it.

also, by without water do you mean the traitline or the attunements?

The trait line. Run a Fire/Air/Earth ele then, with no cantrips and a zerker amulet. Bet you wouldn’t survive 20s against anyone.

Sunflowers.1729:

Gray.9041:

Sunflowers.1729:

But can you run your elementalist without water, arcane, or cantrips? No, right?

I can. I run arcane right now, but I could live without it.

also, by without water do you mean the traitline or the attunements?

The trait line. Run a Fire/Air/Earth ele then, with no cantrips and a zerker amulet. Bet you wouldn’t survive 20s against anyone.

But if the build isnt meant to 1v1, why would he fight you?

Usually try to avoid talking on the forums, but I’ll step in as this is a discussion we need to be having.

I’m one of the original thief players in GW2. I’ve mained thief since launch, blah blah blah, yeah. Like the total noob I was, I went D/D and a glass cannon build because DPS synergies back in the day.

Over time that moved to Acrobatics (+3k HP), and by swapping Deadly Arts for Shadow Arts, I was able to exploit good stealth, Blind-on-stealth, and maximize the synergy between Signet of Malice and Invigorating Precision (then 5% or 8%, depending on patch) to become surprisingly durable at the expense of dealing from 30-60% less theoretical damage.

But the thing was, having come from a glass cannon build that carried me to ~Lv.70, I understood just how precious that extra HP and healing was. And because I’d sacrificed Hide in Shadows to gain more healing, I was using D/D for the Cloak and Dagger skill to gain rapid access to condition cleansing and stealth.

It was very much a sacrifice that was worth making.

So now that I’ve lost 3,000 HP, another 7% precision-to-vitality when Practiced Tolerance got changed, my acrobatics trait line is now nigh useless (goodbye, old Feline Grace), and the Shadow Arts line got relatively nerfed despite having 3 full trait lines, it kitten well hurts to play Thief.

I can’t necessarily afford to drop the 100g+ to replace all of my gear with something more durable or to swap to a different play-style capable of higher sustainability in a fight. Sure my skills remain largely unchanged, but I feel forced into a Deadly Arts / Critical Strikes / Shadow Arts build if I want to survive at all (because taking Trickery means losing almost all condition handling), which is never, ever good design. Worse, with the introduction of No Quarter, I’m once again losing out on significant DPS capabilities by having an interest of being able to survive a fight with a character that went from a deceptively durable build to a full-on glass cannon overnight.

A build I thought I could finally put behind me, but which ANet felt needed to be shoe-horned back into the play style.

Ergo, yes, hearing that there will be more sources and even stronger forms of Reveal is a deathknell for Thief. Sure we gained the potential to out-damage most non-condition builds through sheer critical DPS, but the cost of that was too great.

Now that we have no choice but to be trapped in the lowest HP bracket, our only real defensive capacity beside piddling evades (Ranger bests us quite handily in melee in that regard) is now becoming our greatest weakness. Like complaints about Elementalist being a “sitting duck,” too much of our stealth involves keeping put (a la Shadow Refuge) or attempting to flee.

And let’s not forget the nerf to Resilience of Shadows, either:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Resilience_of_Shadows&oldid=772121

Sunflowers.1729:

Ok yeah. Sorry. I still think I’m right though, but you can choose to disagree with it. Going to stop arguing with him cause it’s going nowhere.

Nope you’re wrong.

You’re trying I’ll give,you that.

More reveal would be fine if the thief as a class had more to compensate for it. Having our class mechanic damage/effects tied to stealth attacks puts us at a bigger innate disadvantage than any other class, even when disregarding the lack of invisibility paired with lower base defenses.

Does that mean we need better base defenses? That’s debatable. Just throwing more HP/armor/baseline cleansing at the problem doesn’t really solve much. You’d then have a case where playing against a non-revealing build would probably offer way too much defense, per the case of how RoS was working during testing (this paired with protection and Rejuv was completely and utterly obscene).

Somehow allowing for the continuation for offensive pressure and revealed defensive trait options could get us to where we need to be, working similarly to RT, or bumping some of the weaker offensive traits to enable less stealth-heavy play with a greater focus on revealed defenses/defenses while not in stealth.

It’s a tough nut to crack. More revealing effects isn’t a solution to the thief as it is without changing a variety of traits and mechanics exclusive to the thief, but more revealing effects is definitely a solution to stealth as a whole assuming access is fairly limited or kept to steeper investment.

There is something fundamentally wrong with the balance logic that is applied to thieves when you compare it to the logic applied to other classes. I can’t figure out what the devs think they’re balancing us against. Is stealth so hard to quantify in the balance equation that they just scream “kitten it” and start swinging the nerf bat?

A long time ago I posted that I would gladly give up stealth for the class just to shut the “nerf thieves” crowd up. Now that our class has been gutted, I think it’s time. Get rid of stealth and everything associated with it. Replace it with a “shadow” ability that leaves us visible but gives us some combination of hard to hit, hard to damage, or reduces crit chances against us, that sort of thing.

Actually if they hadn’t nerfed acrobatics this wouldn’t bother me so much. The problem is that they keep making 1 defensive line the obvious choices and then buffing foes abilities to negate it. Counters to a build is fine if we have other options to choose from, but right now it’s either DA/CS/Tr or DA/SA/Tr. I’d like some options. And yes, we have great disengages, but running away is pretty much losing without dying. It allows you to attempt a fight faster again where you’re not really outplaying them, but rather hoping they make a mistake or don’t have their skills off CD yet.

Black Frog.9274:

There is something fundamentally wrong with the balance logic that is applied to thieves when you compare it to the logic applied to other classes. I can’t figure out what the devs think they’re balancing us against. Is stealth so hard to quantify in the balance equation that they just scream “kitten it” and start swinging the nerf bat?

A long time ago I posted that I would gladly give up stealth for the class just to shut the “nerf thieves” crowd up. Now that our class has been gutted, I think it’s time. Get rid of stealth and everything associated with it. Replace it with a “shadow” ability that leaves us visible but gives us some combination of hard to hit, hard to damage, or reduces crit chances against us, that sort of thing.

Stealth isnt a problem. You get reveal with 1 attack, you can still take damage, you move slower, etc…

Stealth adds to the game, why take something away that adds… its not game break in anyway at all.

Faux.1937:

Stealth isnt a problem. You get reveal with 1 attack, you can still take damage, you move slower, etc…

Stealth adds to the game, why take something away that adds… its not game break in anyway at all.

My point is not that it’s a problem, it’s that everyone else thinks it’s a problem and they’ve been complaining for years. The cumulative nerfs of the past few years far outweigh the actual, practical benefits of stealth for thieves.

Faux.1937:

Now that Rev also has a Counter Stealth… aka Reveal for 5sec.

More and more classes are getting skills to reveal us. When is it too much for a thief?
So just a Community question, Are we getting too much Counter Stealth?

Thief has only 3 ways to defend its self.

• Evade
• Blind
• Stealth

Thief has ZERO

• Blocks
• Invuls
• Resistance

I dont mind Counters to stealth, but giving a Reveal time LONGER than the actual normal reveal is what I dont like.

2 Things:

1. Our “blinds” (Cloaked in Shadow) are currently competing with health and initiative regen (Shadow’s Rejuvenation) for a grandmaster slot.
2. Our “evades” (Feline Grace + Endless Stamina) are currently a joke.

So the only thing we have left is stealth and they are slowly pushing us out of that by adding all these forms of reveal. My point is Anet doesn’t want thief to revolve around stealth but has not given us other mechanics that could increase our survivability.

Nothing needs argument, devs going thier way to balance this game, maybe they

consider that teef shouldn’t be a part of GW2, but can’t remove it now. If u guys don’t

like other class, don’t buy the expention.

I won’t.

The expansion will still have the new skills/traits for others, If I want to pvp Im still fighting against those new traits/skills.

Anyways I love GW2 thats why I’m on the forums, so the game can be Better, not worst by saying insults.

Honestly yes, there will be Anti stealth skill everywhere

Revenant – Gaze Of Darkness, Unyelding Anguish (anti sr- anti bp)
Guardian – Light’s Judgement
Ranger – Sick’em, taunt
Engi – Lock on, Analyze

Stealth needs some counter but at the same time Thief needs more love because Stealth is one of the main source to survive, without Stealth a thief is almost dead.

I agree with the general feeling, ok stealth counters but Anet needs to improve defensive skills.

We are getting cornered so badly right now guys and OP is on point addressing this concern.
By the time Heart of Thorns comes out, playing thief will feel like playing Metal Gear Solid or Splinter Cell. Reveal is an extremely dangerous debuff and even 3 seconds is enough to get us killed.

Dragonhunter’s reveal trap is the latest innovation in Thief hunting. This trap and a sucessful Longbow 5 and we are dead.

Face of Darkness (Revenant reveal skill) has a 20 seconds CD.. I am not sure I can keep up with that with 5 secs of reveal, giving me another 15 seconds to end the fight in my favor.

We really need to wait for the change they will make to our core traits, including the elite spec.

With the tremendous condition damage we can barely clean, the incoming list of seriously game changing reveals, and the broken traits , I have no clue where Anet is going with the Thief.