Guild Wars 2

Gray.9041:

Amante.8109:

You could even have the Grandmaster traits all affect Steal in some way, bringing a core theme back into the mix. This could also serve to offer another trait line that could replace Trickery, if done right.

you can’t really replace trickery until preparedness becomes baseline. the extra initiative is too big.

Tonikor.5637:

Bllade.1029:

WHoever suggested turning the three different dodges into an F3-F4-F5 skill. Thats a fantastic idea.

Take dodges out of the grandmaster traits and replace them with something else.

Thank you.

But it seems some forum heroes dont like the idea and think its overpowered… sigh.

I don’t think it’d be overpowered, but I think a selectable box would be better overall.

It’s not overpowered, it just sounds cumbersome and annoying.

The dodges are fine as a grandmaster trait and as a choice to make to augment your builds playstyle, they just need to be cleaned up and if the dev can’t clean them up, they sure won’t be able to crank out a whole new system. I’m not going to claim it’s a bad idea, but my Zowie mouse with only two extra buttons on the side already struggles a bit after adding another key to Steal. The simplicity and freedom of use is what made the thief class my main to begin with, adding three or four more things to mess around with pretty regularly on top of normal dodge and everything else sounds sloppy to me.

PopeUrban.2578:

So here’s what I’m seeing thusfar:

People like the seemingly intended synergy with existing builds.

People are still questioning why acrobatics is a generally underpowered trait line without DD.

People feel that the staff and dodges don’t feel as fluid and nimble as core specs and dodges. (Anet has stated dodges are being addressed. No word of Staff)

People feel distracting daggers is borderline useless in its current implementation.

People like fist flurry, but feel the payoff isn’t worth the difficulty to land the combo.

People like bandit’s defense, but would like to be able to interrupt it.

Almost nobody has a problem with impairing daggers. People find it useful and valuable.

People feel impact strike has too short a duration between strikes to be user friendly as a chain. People feel like Impact Strike is completely worthless in PvE. People like the insta-finish special feature.

People feel that overall the artistic polish on the spec is not up to par, with a lot of obviously re-used or poorly implemented animations, and a general lack of QA.

There is some contention about utilizing GM traits as the dodge selection mechanism. Some people think it’s fine, Others think it deprives DD of build choices.

There is some contention about the placement of traits.

That about sum it up this far?

This.
Also, I personally think that the heal skill is not fun as it stands. It needs to proc when your endurance is not full, even if that means turning down the heal a little bit.

I also think they should make it at least 2 seconds before comboing the elite. It feels like if the foe moves just a little to the left you just wasted your finisher.

Going with the general consensus of unpolished animations that were either recycled or somewhat off-putting, I actually felt the skills and traits were fairly decent overall (albeit I’ve just recently dusted off my thief after around a year long break). That being said, I was hoping for a change to steal but I guess unique dodges work. I was thinking it would be a nice touch if each dodge had a different effect when in stealth:

-Lotus Training: Daggers inflict additional conditions and do more damage from behind (maybe poison and confusion?)

-Unhindered Combatant: Short range teleport (500 compared to the given 300) that blinds (doesn’t break stealth)

-Bounding Dodger: Additionally causes daze and cripple (I couldn’t think of anything more interesting at the moment)

Anyways, that’s my two cents.

Tonikor.5637:

Bllade.1029:

WHoever suggested turning the three different dodges into an F3-F4-F5 skill. Thats a fantastic idea.

Take dodges out of the grandmaster traits and replace them with something else.

Thank you.

But it seems some forum heroes dont like the idea and think its overpowered… sigh.

It really would nothing more but fair to reimplement the dodges in such a way.
Truly it is quite outrageous to be the only Elite Specialization that has that what makes it stand out from the core spec locked behind Grandmaster Traits.
Like someone noted above, it’s not like the dodges have a lot of synergy between them so I don’t see how this would be overpowered.

Having the GM’s instead do something beneficial to this dodge-swapping, Steal or general Offense/Defense/Utility would be much more solid.

Staff needs an overhaul.

I don’t like the concept, how they work, the numbers, anything.

PopeUrban.2578:

So here’s what I’m seeing thusfar:

People like the seemingly intended synergy with existing builds.

People are still questioning why acrobatics is a generally underpowered trait line without DD.

People feel that the staff and dodges don’t feel as fluid and nimble as core specs and dodges. (Anet has stated dodges are being addressed. No word of Staff)

People feel distracting daggers is borderline useless in its current implementation.

People like fist flurry, but feel the payoff isn’t worth the difficulty to land the combo.

People like bandit’s defense, but would like to be able to interrupt it.

Almost nobody has a problem with impairing daggers. People find it useful and valuable.

People feel impact strike has too short a duration between strikes to be user friendly as a chain. People feel like Impact Strike is completely worthless in PvE. People like the insta-finish special feature.

People feel that overall the artistic polish on the spec is not up to par, with a lot of obviously re-used or poorly implemented animations, and a general lack of QA.

There is some contention about utilizing GM traits as the dodge selection mechanism. Some people think it’s fine, Others think it deprives DD of build choices.

There is some contention about the placement of traits.

That about sum it up this far?

I did a blog post for my Daredevil feedback: https://agegaming.wordpress.com/2015/09/09/heart-of-thorns-beta-weekend-event-2-thoughts-the-daredevil/

From glancing at people’s comments it seems my post pretty much mirrors the above quote if it’s accurately summing up the majority of people’s sentiments on Daredevil.

Vornollo.5182:

Tonikor.5637:

Bllade.1029:

WHoever suggested turning the three different dodges into an F3-F4-F5 skill. Thats a fantastic idea.

Take dodges out of the grandmaster traits and replace them with something else.

Thank you.

But it seems some forum heroes dont like the idea and think its overpowered… sigh.

It really would nothing more but fair to reimplement the dodges in such a way.
Truly it is quite outrageous to be the only Elite Specialization that has that what makes it stand out from the core spec locked behind Grandmaster Traits.
Like someone noted above, it’s not like the dodges have a lot of synergy between them so I don’t see how this would be overpowered.

Having the GM’s instead do something beneficial to this dodge-swapping, Steal or general Offense/Defense/Utility would be much more solid.

I think the big issue here is that there are two trains of thought being mixed up:

• new dodges shouldn’t be tied to GM traits

• new dodges should all be available.

so while I think most people agree with the first, many – like myself – would be happy(er) with a single selectable revenant-legend-like box which allows us to select one dodge, and so object to the idea of having all three dodges available – not to removing them from the trait line.

(so it’s probably people disagreeing with the details, not the direction)

Gray.9041:

Vornollo.5182:

Tonikor.5637:

Bllade.1029:

WHoever suggested turning the three different dodges into an F3-F4-F5 skill. Thats a fantastic idea.

Take dodges out of the grandmaster traits and replace them with something else.

Thank you.

But it seems some forum heroes dont like the idea and think its overpowered… sigh.

It really would nothing more but fair to reimplement the dodges in such a way.
Truly it is quite outrageous to be the only Elite Specialization that has that what makes it stand out from the core spec locked behind Grandmaster Traits.
Like someone noted above, it’s not like the dodges have a lot of synergy between them so I don’t see how this would be overpowered.

Having the GM’s instead do something beneficial to this dodge-swapping, Steal or general Offense/Defense/Utility would be much more solid.

I think the big issue here is that there are two trains of thought being mixed up:

• new dodges shouldn’t be tied to GM traits

• new dodges should all be available.

so while I think most people agree with the first, many – like myself – would be happy(er) with a single selectable revenant-legend-like box which allows us to select one dodge, and so object to the idea of having all three dodges available – not to removing them from the trait line.

(so it’s probably people disagreeing with the details, not the direction)

Maybe an idea where instead of just giving you access to one the dodges, the GM traits greatly enhance a particular dodge you wish to focus on; making it much more powerful.

The way they are now (with some slight adjustments to the animation and mechanics) would be the base dodge you would get between your F3-F4-F5 dodge swap. However, one of those would be your focus and the traits would greatly enhance that particular dodge.

Example might be: “I’m going to need a lot more mobility and condition cleanse, i’m going to spec into dash.” Dash would do what it does now, but that GM trait might give it something like increased range, removal of more conditions on evade. Etc.

Another example: “I think Condi pressure is on the menu for this particular fight, im going to specialize into Lotus Training on this one.” So you’d spec into Lotus training which would enhance the dodge even more so.

At the end of the day you could use multiple dodges, but one of them is going to be your focus.

Bllade.1029:

Maybe an idea where instead of just giving you access to one the dodges, the GM traits greatly enhance a particular dodge you wish to focus on; making it much more powerful.

The way they are now (with some slight adjustments to the animation and mechanics) would be the base dodge you would get between your F3-F4-F5 dodge swap. However, one of those would be your focus and the traits would greatly enhance that particular dodge.

Example might be: “I’m going to need a lot more mobility and condition cleanse, i’m going to spec into dash.” Dash would do what it does now, but that GM trait might give it something like increased range, removal of more conditions on evade. Etc.

Another example: “I think Condi pressure is on the menu for this particular fight, im going to specialize into Lotus Training on this one.” So you’d spec into Lotus training which would enhance the dodge even more so.

At the end of the day you could use multiple dodges, but one of them is going to be your focus.

So what you want is to have all 3 dodges available while in combat, AND you want one of them to be stronger via a GM trait? Having access to all 3 in combat would be OP enough, without being able to augment one even more.

I would be ok with having a revenant legend type selection, so you can select any dodge, but only while out of combat, and free up the GMs for something else.

I think having access to all 3 dodges (as they currently are), in combat, would be too much. I like the idea of them being stances, but I think if that was to happen the dodge replacers would need to be toned down. So my suggestion is as follows:

F3-5 sets you into different stances, which augments your dodge, and the GM traits can augment those stances even more. Each stance and GM trait would work as follows:

Stances
Lotus Stance = When you dodge you throw two daggers out to apply bleeding and torment to your target.

Unhindered Stance = When you dodge you gain swiftness and remove cripple.

Bounding Stance = When you dodge you deal AoE damage where you land.

GM Traits
Lotus Master = Your Lotus Stance is improved, allowing you to throw out one more dagger when dodging, to cripple your foe, and your dodge becomes a whirl finisher. While you have the Lotus Stance active you gain increased condition duration (+10%).

Unstoppable Master = Your Unhindered Stance is improved, allowing your dodge to remove chill and you travel further. While you have the Unhindered Stance active immobilize effects on you have reduced duration (-30%)

Leaping Master = Your Bounding Stance is improved, adding a leap finisher to your dodge rolls. While Bounding Stance is active you gain 10 endurance when you successfully evade an attack.

The above might be OP, but its the general idea I am trying to convey. If we are going to have all 3 dodges available in combat, there effectiveness needs to be reduced in some way, in my opinion.

Rin.1046:

Bllade.1029:

Maybe an idea where instead of just giving you access to one the dodges, the GM traits greatly enhance a particular dodge you wish to focus on; making it much more powerful.

The way they are now (with some slight adjustments to the animation and mechanics) would be the base dodge you would get between your F3-F4-F5 dodge swap. However, one of those would be your focus and the traits would greatly enhance that particular dodge.

Example might be: “I’m going to need a lot more mobility and condition cleanse, i’m going to spec into dash.” Dash would do what it does now, but that GM trait might give it something like increased range, removal of more conditions on evade. Etc.

Another example: “I think Condi pressure is on the menu for this particular fight, im going to specialize into Lotus Training on this one.” So you’d spec into Lotus training which would enhance the dodge even more so.

At the end of the day you could use multiple dodges, but one of them is going to be your focus.

So what you want is to have all 3 dodges available while in combat, AND you want one of them to be stronger via a GM trait? Having access to all 3 in combat would be OP enough, without being able to augment one even more.

I would be ok with having a revenant legend type selection, so you can select any dodge, but only while out of combat, and free up the GMs for something else.

I think having access to all 3 dodges (as they currently are), in combat, would be too much. I like the idea of them being stances, but I think if that was to happen the dodge replacers would need to be toned down. So my suggestion is as follows:

F3-5 sets you into different stances, which augments your dodge, and the GM traits can augment those stances even more. Each stance and GM trait would work as follows:

Stances
Lotus Stance = When you dodge you throw two daggers out to apply bleeding and torment to your target.

Unhindered Stance = When you dodge you gain swiftness and remove cripple.

Bounding Stance = When you dodge you deal AoE damage where you land.

GM Traits
Lotus Master = Your Lotus Stance is improved, allowing you to throw out one more dagger when dodging, to cripple your foe, and your dodge becomes a whirl finisher. While you have the Lotus Stance active you gain increased condition duration (+10%).

Unstoppable Master = Your Unhindered Stance is improved, allowing your dodge to remove chill and you travel further. While you have the Unhindered Stance active immobilize effects on you have reduced duration (-30%)

Leaping Master = Your Bounding Stance is improved, adding a leap finisher to your dodge rolls. While Bounding Stance is active you gain 10 endurance when you successfully evade an attack.

The above might be OP, but its the general idea I am trying to convey. If we are going to have all 3 dodges available in combat, there effectiveness needs to be reduced in some way, in my opinion.

Need a kitten F6 to turn that kitten off or /regular dodge so I can dodge in my SR… ; /

Anyways, as I said before, add those dodges to F3-5.

You’re still limited by endurance. I have no idea why you believe having all three dodges available would be OP.

Im thinking about this in any combat situation, and I strongly disagree with you. So please, explain in detail why you believe that would be imbalanced.

Don’t confuse having access to all three dodges the same as being able to spam all three dodges. Like you can swap to the dodge, gain full endurance and just spam.

No, I mean you can swap to a particular dodge to fit the situation. You still are very limited, so choose youre dodge wisely. Very similar to what an Ele does when it swaps attunements. On that note, a Revenant as well.

Edit: Unless the dodges utility has changed and I don’t know about it. As they currently are right now, no i don’t think that would be OP at all.

If they add F3-5, the new GM shouldn’t just enhence one specific type of dodge. Why not have traits that benefits all dodges? I proposed the following:

F3-5 added for the new dodges. Same effects. Can be toggle off for people who don’t want the effect other than the GM.

New GM – 3 seperate GM’s add additional effect to all dodges
-When you dodge, you gain protection for X secs
-When you dodge, you gain resistance for X secs
-When you dodge, you gain stability for X secs

But with less than 2 months before release of HOT, I highly doubt they will redo it even if they wanted too. Just not enough time…

Gray.9041:

Vornollo.5182:

Tonikor.5637:

Bllade.1029:

WHoever suggested turning the three different dodges into an F3-F4-F5 skill. Thats a fantastic idea.

Take dodges out of the grandmaster traits and replace them with something else.

Thank you.

But it seems some forum heroes dont like the idea and think its overpowered… sigh.

It really would nothing more but fair to reimplement the dodges in such a way.
Truly it is quite outrageous to be the only Elite Specialization that has that what makes it stand out from the core spec locked behind Grandmaster Traits.
Like someone noted above, it’s not like the dodges have a lot of synergy between them so I don’t see how this would be overpowered.

Having the GM’s instead do something beneficial to this dodge-swapping, Steal or general Offense/Defense/Utility would be much more solid.

I think the big issue here is that there are two trains of thought being mixed up:

• new dodges shouldn’t be tied to GM traits

• new dodges should all be available.

so while I think most people agree with the first, many – like myself – would be happy(er) with a single selectable revenant-legend-like box which allows us to select one dodge, and so object to the idea of having all three dodges available – not to removing them from the trait line.

(so it’s probably people disagreeing with the details, not the direction)

I would agree having the dodges set up like stances as F3-F5 would be more beneficial. Locking them behind the GM trait line is a bit low balling. They are just dodges. If you think switching between them is OP than just put a weapon swap timer on it. It only changes your dodge type, not your entire line of weapon skills like other classes’s elites.

With that I could see this opening the GM trait area to actual “traits” that would be more beneficial to a thief’s survivalbility. Something like 1) Smoke Trail: lay down a smoke screen in the dodge path line for 3 seconds with a 20 second CD. 2) Dodger’s Defense: Gain 1 stack of defense on a “successful dodge” (evade with dodge) with a 10 second CD 3) Flash Bomb*: On a “successful dodge” (evade with dodge), thief lets off a white light that confuses enemies for 2 sec, 30 second CD.

Gabriell.4856:

Need a kitten F6 to turn that kitten off or /regular dodge so I can dodge in my SR… ; /

Anyways, as I said before, add those dodges to F3-5.

With my Unhindered Stance example you will essentially be doing a normal dodge but gain swiftness and remove cripple. Why would you want to turn that off?

@Bllade – I just feel it would offer you too many tools while in combat, but hey, if Anet wants to do that then I won’t complain. But I suspect other profs will.

Your crippled and chilled? No probs I’ll swap to dash and remove them. Smoke field? Excellent, I’ll swap to bound and stealth. I need to cripple them but have no initiative, no probs I’ll swap to lotus and cripple them. You cannot do all of these things in the DD’s current state, and I think that was a balancing decision they made.

With more evades, condition clears from evades and endurance gain from steal, not to mention endurance gain from core thief traits and skills, having access to so many tricks on your dodging could potentially be OP. Each dodge replacer can be very strong on its own. Bounding dodger for example can help pistol pistol and sword pistol users enter stealth more easily, and that is not something to be sniffed at. That is very strong. So they need to weigh up the pros and cons of allowing access to all 3 in combat, and in my opinion I think they will consider it too strong.

Rin.1046:

Gabriell.4856:

Need a kitten F6 to turn that kitten off or /regular dodge so I can dodge in my SR… ; /

Anyways, as I said before, add those dodges to F3-5.

With my Unhindered Stance example you will essentially be doing a normal dodge but gain swiftness and remove cripple. Why would you want to turn that off?

@Bllade – I just feel it would offer you too many tools while in combat, but hey, if Anet wants to do that then I won’t complain. But I suspect other profs will.

Your crippled and chilled? No probs I’ll swap to dash and remove them. Smoke field? Excellent, I’ll swap to bound and stealth. I need to cripple them but have no initiative, no probs I’ll swap to lotus and cripple them. You cannot do all of these things in the DD’s current state, and I think that was a balancing decision they made.

With more evades, condition clears from evades and endurance gain from steal, not to mention endurance gain from core thief traits and skills, having access to so many tricks on your dodging could potentially be OP. Each dodge replacer can be very strong on its own. Bounding dodger for example can help pistol pistol and sword pistol users enter stealth more easily, and that is not something to be sniffed at. That is very strong. So they need to weigh up the pros and cons of allowing access to all 3 in combat, and in my opinion I think they will consider it too strong.

Because each GM has a potential to reveal me so…please give me an option to turn it off when I don’t need it.

Gabriell.4856:

Because each GM has a potential to reveal me so…please give me an option to turn it off when I don’t need it.

At the end of the day, if you want to spec for stealth, core thief is where you want to be. The DD is all about evades, so they are less inclined to think about stealth and how it fits into their build. Besides, this is only a risk for Shadow Refuge, which is ONE skill. I do not think they will/should change the dodge replacer’s functionality just to accomodate one skill, when you can easily spec for core thief and use it without an issue.

If you want Shadow Refuge to work on your bar, go thief.

Rin.1046:

Gabriell.4856:

Because each GM has a potential to reveal me so…please give me an option to turn it off when I don’t need it.

At the end of the day, if you want to spec for stealth, core thief is where you want to be. The DD is all about evades, so they are less inclined to think about stealth and how it fits into their build. Besides, this is only a risk for Shadow Refuge, which is ONE skill. I do not think they will/should change the dodge replacer’s functionality just to accomodate one skill, when you can easily spec for core thief and use it without an issue.

If you want Shadow Refuge to work on your bar, go thief.

Wtf is this? We roleplaying again? Fine. I will role play with you.

That is fine as long as DD don’t spec thief. Hope you enjoy specing into one trait line and if you trait into the other 5 then you’re a hypocrite or shall we say more thief than DD. lolz

But seriously, can you stop playing “I know what the Dev thinks.”

Gabriell.4856:

Wtf is this? We roleplaying again? Fine. I will role play with you.

That is fine as long as DD don’t spec thief. Hope you enjoy specing into one trait line and if you trait into the other 5 then you’re a hypocrite or shall we say more thief than DD. lolz

Seriously? Are you really getting that upset over one skill? Do you rely on stealth that much?!

This has f all to do with role playing, it is about playstyles. The core thief playstyle is about using stealth and being effective at taking opponents by surprise. The DD playstyle is about getting in the thick of it, evading and interrupting their targets. Yes, you can make a hybrid, but don’t expect a full stealth build to work with a traitline that is about evasive play.

If you want to be strong at evades then take DD, if you want to be strong at stealth then take Thief. If you want to be strong at both, then you will be very disappointed.

You can run an effective stealth build with the DD traitline, all it means is that Shadow Refuge (again ONE SKILL) is more risky to use, but any other stealth related skill and trait will work just as it currently does. If Shadow Refuge really is that much of a crutch to you then you have bigger problems to deal I’m afraid.

These are really good ideas, guys. I see what you mean now about the dodge swap function, definitely would have to be careful about balancing but I don’t think it would be OP as is.

The idea on enhancing all three dodges with a GM trait makes perfect sense. You get the option between F3-F4-F5 swap but each GM applies to all three depending on your needs at the time.

That sounds pretty amazing actually! I hope all of this discussion sparks some creative thinking and ideas at Anet!

Bllade.1029:

These are really good ideas, guys. I see what you mean now about the dodge swap function, definitely would have to be careful about balancing but I don’t think it would be OP as is.

The idea on enhancing all three dodges with a GM trait makes perfect sense. You get the option between F3-F4-F5 swap but each GM applies to all three depending on your needs at the time.

That sounds pretty amazing actually! I hope all of this discussion sparks some creative thinking and ideas at Anet!

I personally think putting the same 10 second CD on dodge swapping that they have on weapon swapping would fix any OP ness. You might be able to swap from one dodge type to a second dodge type but you would be locked into that dodge until the CD breaks. If 10 seconds is enough to delay people from swapping 5 skills, 10 seconds should be enough for switching 1.

Rin.1046:

Gabriell.4856:

Wtf is this? We roleplaying again? Fine. I will role play with you.

That is fine as long as DD don’t spec thief. Hope you enjoy specing into one trait line and if you trait into the other 5 then you’re a hypocrite or shall we say more thief than DD. lolz

Seriously? Are you really getting that upset over one skill? Do you rely on stealth that much?!

This has f all to do with role playing, it is about playstyles. The core thief playstyle is about using stealth and being effective at taking opponents by surprise. The DD playstyle is about getting in the thick of it, evading and interrupting their targets. Yes, you can make a hybrid, but don’t expect a full stealth build to work with a traitline that is about evasive play.

If you want to be strong at evades then take DD, if you want to be strong at stealth then take Thief. If you want to be strong at both, then you will be very disappointed.

You can run an effective stealth build with the DD traitline, all it means is that Shadow Refuge (again ONE SKILL) is more risky to use, but any other stealth related skill and trait will work just as it currently does. If Shadow Refuge really is that much of a crutch to you then you have bigger problems to deal I’m afraid.

Why so upset based on someone’s suggestion to have a on/off toggle button? Calm down dude.

Regardless of how much feedback we give, DD will be in an unfinished state Oct. 23. I’m not saying cease giving feedback, but the thief dev has a history of simply adding damage, or tweaking numbers, not actual repair like the Revenant dev.

At this point, I’m just hoping the other things like the WvW changes and mastery lines will be decent enough to warrant the purchase price. I’ve given up hope on the DD.

Don´t be so negative buddies, by the amount of views the daredevil feedback thread got it should be clear for the developers that there is a lot of interest in the new specialization of the thief.
I think they will do there best to improve the profession with the feedback they got from the community.
Lets stay positive and hope for the best!

Best regards!

Shino

I see no reason not to have the dodge be a drop down box like Revenant legends, and then give DD actual Grandmaster traits. You could balance it in SPvP by locking the player into their choice once the match starts, much like the legends function now.

Please make ‘Dash’ a shadowstep instead of the clunky run animation! or leave it as the old dodge animation but add 2 secs super speed or some such.

The idea of Dash as an instant shadowstep instead of dodge is actually INCREDIBLY interesting. It’d require minimal animation too, so a plus on the effort side for ANet

Amante.8109:

The idea of Dash as an instant shadowstep instead of dodge is actually INCREDIBLY interesting. It’d require minimal animation too, so a plus on the effort side for ANet

depends on how the shadowstep works. If it requires a target I would prefer the dash as I would rather use dash to move around the battlefield rather then always engage.

babazhook.6805:

depends on how the shadowstep works. If it requires a target I would prefer the dash as I would rather use dash to move around the battlefield rather then always engage.

It would only look like a shadow step. It would functionally be what it is now. (minus the dodge delay of course)

Fade.5904:

Please make ‘Dash’ a shadowstep instead of the clunky run animation! or leave it as the old dodge animation but add 2 secs super speed or some such.

You can sign me up for this one.

any dev response to the update on this thread?

dying to know if adding Dust strike as a mimic of Black Powder except making it a whirl finisher instead of projectile like black powder is. or at least make it a short lasting Smoke screen in front of the player.

Fade.5904:

Please make ‘Dash’ a shadowstep instead of the clunky run animation! or leave it as the old dodge animation but add 2 secs super speed or some such.

Interesting idea, and one I could get behind. The only issues I see with it are the potential for pathing issues and the thematics of it.

Currently there are some pathing restrictions to shadowstepping, and the last thing you want to happen is to try and dodge but fail because the spot you would have stepped to is not possible to shadowstep to. If it was like a normal dodge but looked like a shadow step, that might work, but I expect that would take a bit of work creating that effect.

Regarding the thematics of it, the Daredevil is not really a shadow magic kind of spec. They are more physical and about agility more then shadows and trickery, so I am not sure a shadow stepping dodge would fit the Daredevil theme.

It is a cool idea though, so maybe that is something they could add to another elite spec in the future.

Interesting idea, and one I could get behind. The only issues I see with it are the potential for pathing issues and the thematics of it.

Well, pathing wouldn’t be an issue because it wouldn’t actually be a shadow step. It would Just be a dash in which you vanished at the beginning, traveled the set dash distance invisibly, and then reappeared at the end. Mechanically there’s no reason why not. Still, it couldn’t be a faster movement than Dash, which a Steal is, so you’d actually be invisibly “in transit” for longer than during a Steal.

I think there might be some balance issues though, in PvP at least, since vanishing and reappearing in any direction would make you much harder to follow, making it a much more powerful effect than a standard dodge (it’d be much harder to follow than Steal too, since that one needs a target).

Another idea would be to make the dodges behave differently if you have a target or not.

If you have no target- perform a regular dodge
If you have a target – perform the enhanced dodge and actually move towards your target with all of them.

That should fix any issues changing dash to a shadowstep might bring up pathing wise, it would create a new gap closer, stop you flying off in all directions and it would give you a choice whether to use the enhanced dodges or not depending on the circumstances.

Personally i think this would make the new dodges feel much smoother and look a lot less dumb if your actually traveling towards your target. It would allow you to dodge without doing area damage (for traveling / dodging in shadow refuge/ when stealthed)

I would love small smokefield on staff and better dps on autoatack with some cool effect

Urejt.5648:

I would love small smokefield on staff and better dps on autoatack with some cool effect

If they gave it a smoke field they’d be turning the staff into a two-handed Dagger/Pistol set. Drop the smoke field and the leap on 5 or a dodge.

We’ve already got that, let’s get something new and truly unique with the staff.

Can we have something like this?

Shake it off
remove a condition on dodge (internal cooldown 5 seconds).
If you evade an attack, cooldown is reduced to 2 seconds.

Also, I realize it was a beta and staff animations have lower priority than working gameplay, but if the reused animations make it into HoT, I will send you a picture of me doing my sad face (which will break your dev hearts).

Bllade.1029:

Urejt.5648:

I would love small smokefield on staff and better dps on autoatack with some cool effect

If they gave it a smoke field they’d be turning the staff into a two-handed Dagger/Pistol set. Drop the smoke field and the leap on 5 or a dodge.

We’ve already got that, let’s get something new and truly unique with the staff.

I tend to agree. A water field might be more interesting or anything that just not a copy of other weapon sets attributes.

Hmmm, anet is still quiet as a mouse.

I think the community would really appreciate it if they just share their oppinion on the topic.

• How did they experience the daredevil? Is it the agile fighter they wanted to create?

• Are they happy with the recycled animations? Does it meet their high standard?

• Are they working on changes already? What needs to change in their oppinion?

The community showed big interest and provided a lot of feedback. They spent hours of their time to find bugs for you.

Would be really nice if someone of the company could in exchange spend 5 minutes of their time and tell us about your plans.

Best regards!

Shino

I’d just like to start off by saying that it’s a little worrying that it’s been a week since the BWE2 and we haven’t heard zip from Karl.

Everyone has pretty much summed up the problems with the DD already, but having participated in the weekend I’m going to throw out my feedback regardless.

Key things that I believe need to be seen to before the next BWE (hopefully at least before launch). This is mostly from a PvPers perspective.

Dodges

• This is actually the one thing Karl did comment on, and yeah I think it goes without saying the way the new dodges function is fine except for the obvious delay before and after the dodge itself.

Auto chain

• It’s too slow for a start, I actually felt the Revs staff auto was quicker. On top of that the damage was very lackluster, I would like to see every attack apply vulnerability or something to make it worth using. I didn’t use it much in PvP.

Weakening Charge

• The damage is fine, the condi application and whirl finisher is fine, basically everything about it is fine except the way it behaves…sending you charging to whichever direction you’re facing rather than towards your target. It needs to function similar to Heartseeker in that it sticks to your opponent.

Debilitating Arc

• Aside from the evade and the immob cleanse I really don’t understand the purpose of this ability. The whole point of the DD from what we were shown in the reveal is to be constantly in your opponents face dishing out hurt, so why do we have an ability that send us away from our foe? we have shortbow #3 doing the exact same thing why would be want it on our staff?

Dust Strike

• Again, why do we have an ability designed to be used at range with our staff? I didn’t use this, at all. It does measly damage and send a 5 sec blind to my opponent IF I hit them with it, big whoop. Not to mention how slow the skill is to cast.

Vault

• The bread & butter of the Daredevil, pretty much the only ability that does noticeable damage. It hits like a truck if you manage to successfully land it, and it looks awesome when you perform it, cool! However I have one issue with Vault, it’s soooooo kittening SLOW! I had such a hard time in PvP trying to land this without the aid of an immobilize or using the Vault/Steal combo.

• Vault needs a faster animation, simple as that. Either that or at the very least add a 1/2 sec evade to it whilst vaulting. Most of the guys I fought had so much time to react to it to the point where a dodge wasn’t even necessary…they just needed to move out of the way :\

Channelled Vigor

• I didn’t use this. The heal and endurance gain was great, the 20 sec CD was great, being a channelled heal on a class that relies on mobility was not great. The only situation I found it safe to use was when I was stealthed, but I don’t really have much access to stealth as a Daredevil. Myeh! too easily interruptible, not a fan.

Impairing Daggers

• My favourite skill, LOVED it! The animation was awesome, it felt awesome, it does great damage and applies slow and only has a base 25 sec CD..what’s not to like!? I don’t want to be negative but considering this is literally the only skill people haven’t complained about, wouldn’t surprise me if it actually gets nerfed -_- (but hopefully not, leave it be)

Distracting Daggers

• Coupled with Impacting Disruption I can see this doing some good, but ultimately I hated this skill. The 15 second window you have to cast these daggers is pointless and makes it difficult to use. When you consider that 15 sec window, you basically have to cast it while in the middle of a fight, problem is who has the time to cast for 1 second, THEN start throwing just to pull off some potential interrupts? The only good thing about this skill is the fast projectile speed, that’s it. If it functioned more like a Mantra, then we’ll talk.

Bandit’s Defence

• I didn’t mind it! a block and stun breaker on a 10 second CD is pretty baller (despite hearing Karl mention in the POI he plans to increase it to 15 seconds). I’ll probably be using this, I found it handy in most situations. Only quarry with BD was the inability to cancel the block by any means.

Fist Flurry

• I didn’t have much luck with this. Most of the time landing that 5th fist was a pain, and then I was left having used a skill slot for a 17,90 damage ability, not very worth it if you don’t land all hits, which you’ll only do 40% of the time. Palm strike was obviously VERY nice, but again…a lot of effort for a moderate amount of damage. Wasn’t a huge fan of watching my weapon mystically disappear either.

Impact Strike

• No reason to take any other elite over this, I liked it. The damage of all three chains is great, and works perfectly to secure a kill, assuming you don’t get interrupted and have it go on cooldown, which seemed to happen to me a lot. Only thing I’d like to add is seeing my own finisher at the end of the chain rather than the default flag.

I won’t go into detail regarding the traitline, I actually think it’s all pretty good! /thumbsup

In closing – The Daredevil was sold to us as a nimble, fluid “death machine”, but after the BWE I don’t feel like I got what was advertised. The recycled animations are awful, I’m not lugging around a hammer, I’m carrying a combat staff I mean cmon guys. Overall most of the animations are slow and clunky, I don’t feel nimble and although the DD was playable, it’s obviously in a placeholder state and needs a ton of work.

We have 6 weeks until launch, Karl? Roy? anyone? I’m really hoping we start getting some attention soon, because if most of the above issues get resolved, Daredevil will definitely be taking over as my main.

Bloodwine.6450:

Dodges

• This is actually the one thing Karl did comment on, and yeah I think it goes without saying the way the new dodges function is fine except for the obvious delay before and after the dodge itself.

I agree. Make the dodges more fluid.

Auto chain

• It’s too slow for a start, I actually felt the Revs staff auto was quicker. On top of that the damage was very lackluster, I would like to see every attack apply vulnerability or something to make it worth using. I didn’t use it much in PvP.

I liked the auto functionality, but I agree its damage is a little lackluster. What I’d suggest is rather than buffing its damage, increase the amount of time the skill reflects. Maybe switch it to reflect on skill 1. So a daredevil can always reflect from the front (if skill 1 doesn’t connect to anything) if you spam it. First spin the staff, then strike. This gives our auto the purpose of being a defensive tool, allowing us an easier time getting into melee.

Weakening Charge

• The damage is fine, the condi application and whirl finisher is fine, basically everything about it is fine except the way it behaves…sending you charging to whichever direction you’re facing rather than towards your target. It needs to function similar to Heartseeker in that it sticks to your opponent.

I really enjoyed this skill. I’m not completely against trying a new version, but I found this to be a very skillful and fun skill. I wouldn’t want to see the skill bring you in front of your enemy though. (like heart seeker) I like confusing foes by moving through them. It gives the skill a new form of mobility in combat that also deals great damage. I like it as is.

Debilitating Arc

• Aside from the evade and the immob cleanse I really don’t understand the purpose of this ability. The whole point of the DD from what we were shown in the reveal is to be constantly in your opponents face dishing out hurt, so why do we have an ability that send us away from our foe? we have shortbow #3 doing the exact same thing why would be want it on our staff?

Again, I like this skill when combined with bounding dodger. You move back and dodge back in. The only thing I might want to change with this skill is to slightly increase the distance traveled when you don’t hit a target. I find that would be when I would want to move farther to escape a bad situation.

Dust Strike

• Again, why do we have an ability designed to be used at range with our staff? I didn’t use this, at all. It does measly damage and send a 5 sec blind to my opponent IF I hit them with it, big whoop. Not to mention how slow the skill is to cast.

This skill could use some work. I found it lackluster in almost every situation. Make it into a short duration smoke field, so that the staff has access to stealth, but make the duration short enough to only get one leap through. So it can’t be used for stacking stealth, but rather a quick entry into it so you can knockdown your opponent. Maybe 1 second duration smoke field. Also, please improve the tracking, as this skill rarely connects.

Vault

• The bread & butter of the Daredevil, pretty much the only ability that does noticeable damage. It hits like a truck if you manage to successfully land it, and it looks awesome when you perform it, cool! However I have one issue with Vault, it’s soooooo kittening SLOW! I had such a hard time in PvP trying to land this without the aid of an immobilize or using the Vault/Steal combo.

I liked this skill. However, I’m not sure it can be sped up too much without nerfing it elsewhere. The skill seems meant to be playing with bounding dodger again, as the skills look very similar, so you can bait interrupts on your dodge, and confuse your foe into downplaying the severity of vault. It seems a bit like a mind game, where you dodge around and occasionally one is a vault for 3x the damage. I liked it. Just make sure the skill animates at the same speed as bounding dodge and I’m happy regardless.

• Vault needs a faster animation, simple as that. Either that or at the very least add a 1/2 sec evade to it whilst vaulting. Most of the guys I fought had so much time to react to it to the point where a dodge wasn’t even necessary…they just needed to move out of the way :\

I wouldn’t mind a 1/4 or 1/2 second evade on the skill. But I’d rather not see other parts of this skill nerfed.

Channelled Vigor

• I didn’t use this. The heal and endurance gain was great, the 20 sec CD was great, being a channelled heal on a class that relies on mobility was not great. The only situation I found it safe to use was when I was stealthed, but I don’t really have much access to stealth as a Daredevil. Myeh! too easily interruptible, not a fan.

Not sure on this skill, I didn’t use it much.

Impairing Daggers

• My favourite skill, LOVED it! The animation was awesome, it felt awesome, it does great damage and applies slow and only has a base 25 sec CD..what’s not to like!? I don’t want to be negative but considering this is literally the only skill people haven’t complained about, wouldn’t surprise me if it actually gets nerfed -_- (but hopefully not, leave it be)

Never played condi, or much with this skill, can’t comment.

Distracting Daggers

• Coupled with Impacting Disruption I can see this doing some good, but ultimately I hated this skill. The 15 second window you have to cast these daggers is pointless and makes it difficult to use. When you consider that 15 sec window, you basically have to cast it while in the middle of a fight, problem is who has the time to cast for 1 second, THEN start throwing just to pull off some potential interrupts? The only good thing about this skill is the fast projectile speed, that’s it. If it functioned more like a Mantra, then we’ll talk.

Mantra treatment is needed. I completely agree. Otherwise, the skill could be fun in some builds.

Bandit’s Defence

• I didn’t mind it! a block and stun breaker on a 10 second CD is pretty baller (despite hearing Karl mention in the POI he plans to increase it to 15 seconds). I’ll probably be using this, I found it handy in most situations. Only quarry with BD was the inability to cancel the block by any means.

I love this skill. I don’t think it should be brought to 15 second cooldown. The 10 seconds gave the feeling that its hard to pin down a daredevil. I really enjoyed it, and I think nerfing this skill would hurt the gameplay a lot more than the devs may realize. Keep it as it, do not nerf it.

Fist Flurry

• I didn’t have much luck with this. Most of the time landing that 5th fist was a pain, and then I was left having used a skill slot for a 17,90 damage ability, not very worth it if you don’t land all hits, which you’ll only do 40% of the time. Palm strike was obviously VERY nice, but again…a lot of effort for a moderate amount of damage. Wasn’t a huge fan of watching my weapon mystically disappear either.

Change this skill to activate its chain with 3+ hits connected rather than 5. It is a fun skill in pve, but lackluster in pvp. This skill will only get worse as players learn to fight the daredevil, and will go unused in pvp. The damage of the proc lungs strike or whatever would be allowed to crit or made to hit harder. That could balance the skill with kittens needed to connect.

Impact Strike

• No reason to take any other elite over this, I liked it. The damage of all three chains is great, and works perfectly to secure a kill, assuming you don’t get interrupted and have it go on cooldown, which seemed to happen to me a lot. Only thing I’d like to add is seeing my own finisher at the end of the chain rather than the default flag.

i enjoyed this skill. Very fun. I’m not against adding another spin to the finisher part, to make the animation look more daredevilly. XD Fun skill, don’t change, unless to improve the animation.

Comments above.

I’ll keep this short as everyone has already addressed the main stuff x1000.

I find it very hard to switch my current utilities for the new utilities because they are either very situational, absolutely useless or removing too much survivability. Bandit’s Defence is probably the only one I find worth in using. If the CD was increased to 15s then I’ll just go back to infiltrator’s or shadowstep because they offer much better features. Almost every class has an invuln of some sorts that typically last 3-6s so the least Anet could do is give us a 1s block on a short CD.

TL;DR: Stop nerfing, start buffing (utilities, that is).

Disappointing, fiddly and horribly clunky. Meddled with at a mates on his account, both came to roughly the same conclusions.

Staff
- Auto-attack appeared to be the same speed but do both less damage and less useful status application than sword main hand? Weird for a 2 handed weapon.
- Not enough engagement/close options inherent on staff – the 2 to reengage could really do with having a longer range than the disengage skill has. Not having it leads to it feeling too slow/fiddly/disjointed/lacking in flow compared to what you’d expect from an agile melee staff user that as it’s trying to make you not stealth you’d assume would be mostly about glueing yourself to your target and being hard to get away from.
- Staff 4 doesn’t really fit what you’d expect from a staff user for a “sweep” as per description – it’s a flick/gouge here. Would be better off as a shorter range 180 degree arc via a semi circular actual sweep than an easily dodgeable long line. Maybe needs a combo field adding given the lack of them on this set?
- staff animations need serious work, which may help with it feeling disjointed, given none of them appear to flow together very well. An attack from a non-magic melee profession should not feature a hands-free hovering twirling staff (3rd AA). Staff 4 looks ridiculous given the re-use of shovel ‘dig’ animation. Please look up actual martial artists for ideas if stuck, there’s PLENTY of bo staff videos/films kicking around these days.

Physical utilities – Due to the physical skills being lower cooldown and feeling mandatory to tie staff together as a viable option, it only really worked as a whole if rebinding half your new utility skills to either a fancy multi-button mouse, or right next to movement keys, which is not something I enjoy or like. Something that no other class or build really needs like this one does.

Dodges – Further support the F3 to F5 option to swap between them given how situationally dependent they are, or maybe the option to toggle between normal and chosen special one. Interesting concept idea, but fiddly/glitchy and poor in execution, too slow and easy to predict/be killed while using against other players. Too easy to unstealth yourself with by accident. Annoying to not be able to shadowstep out of.

New Heal – Channeled heal for such a fragile class is a laughable idea – don’t see the point in PvP or PvE, as the former sees you dead long before it’s done against nearly anyone and the latter you’re better off using withdraw as a heal and evade based escape or signet of malice to keep topped up and mobile.

Misc thoughts
- feels like it stole from Acrobatics pre-trait nerf/balance.

- Gives some benefit to s/p viability again given it being a better version of Acrobatics, and the ability to dodge roll into stealth with the currently highly disappointing p/p due to all the unneeded nerfs that set ate.

- Doesn’t really address the base problems with why thief gets shoehorned into the current meta fragile d/p + shortbow burst/mobility build by giving good enough alternative/variable options either build or weaponset wise.

- Not even close to enough reason to rescue my or my mates thieves from being relegated from our main WvW/dungeon/world roamers to “oh I need their crafting professions” that happened with the trait changes. But then I doubt that’ll happen unless various base weaponsets, skills and traits get the rebalance they need – pistols & traps, shortbow (who honestly actually tries to use this for anything but mobility given it’s lack of related traits and general punch?), and all related traits

Bllade.1029:

Amante.8109:

The Elite Chain needs a better animation for the third hit, too. The Warrior Stomp is the best recycled suggestion I’ve heard.

So the first strike dazes right? Then the second strike knocks em into the air?

Animation for the Third strike? How about this…

https://youtu.be/NKDIVq8UMLM?t=11m4s

Would rather like this animation.

yolo swaggins.2570:

Bllade.1029:

Amante.8109:

The Elite Chain needs a better animation for the third hit, too. The Warrior Stomp is the best recycled suggestion I’ve heard.

So the first strike dazes right? Then the second strike knocks em into the air?

Animation for the Third strike? How about this…

https://youtu.be/NKDIVq8UMLM?t=11m4s

Would rather like this animation.

Bllade’s is unnecessarily long, complex and impractical. And in my opinion doesn’t look thief themed at all.
Yours wouldn’t make sense for a downed person.

All the feedback in the world doesn’t matter if no one’s listening. It’s time for a statement on the results of our already voluminous feedback.

Frankly I was underwhelmed. As someone who is a fan of the Daredevil comic, the name gave me high expectations.

The dodging/evading stuff wasn’t that effective compared to what I had to give up to get it. It was difficult to control in combat. I could see myself dashing off the edge of a cliff, which is a very dangerous thing to do in HoT (not to mention Edge of the Mist or half a dozen other places). It didn’t seem to make it any harder for NPC’s to hit me. I suspect it wouldn’t make it any harder for PC’s to hit me in WvW. We have this thing in GW2 called “auto targetting” which means that jumping all over the place like a kangaroo on speed doesn’t actually do you that much good.

DD seems like more of a novelty line of traits, something you do for a week or two to get some cool screenshots before going back to a real thief build that actually works.

The tool tips in the Daredevil line are hard to follow. I had to go to Dulfy for explanations on how some of them work. PIXELS ARE FREE, A-NET! Sheesh!

It feels like the Daredevil trait line can’t figure out what it wants to be. It tries to be offense here, defense there, and utility over in that direction. Pick one to concentrate on please. Trying to be a “well balanced” thief (or any class for that matter) means you either get crushed in WvW or you end up surviving, but accomplishing nothing. Balance is something to be accomplished overall when considering all the trait lines taken together, not something done in a single trait line. It’s like celestial armor, one of the most useless armors in the game because it tries to be a little bit of everything, meaning it’s not really good at anything. I think maybe there’s one build in one class that uses that armor.

DD feels like A-Net wants thieves to give up on being anything but condi. I despise condi builds.

Basically I see no reason to use the DD trait line. It has a few good traits here and there, but not enough to make it worthwhile to discard one of the good trait lines I’m already using. Maybe if I had a condi build I would feel differently. If that’s the case, it’s just another nail in the coffin of anyone who isn’t a condi thief.

I had a thread going on it, but it ran its course, so I’d just like to post this here too. Impaling Lotus should not inflict physical damage. It makes the skill more of an inconvenience than a boon. I wasn’t even running Shadow Refuge, and I still had problems with this preventing me from playing stealth mindgames or even just getting away from something nasty after a CnD.

Nutjob.9021:

Frankly I was underwhelmed. As someone who is a fan of the Daredevil comic, the name gave me high expectations.

The dodging/evading stuff wasn’t that effective compared to what I had to give up to get it. It was difficult to control in combat. I could see myself dashing off the edge of a cliff, which is a very dangerous thing to do in HoT (not to mention Edge of the Mist or half a dozen other places). It didn’t seem to make it any harder for NPC’s to hit me. I suspect it wouldn’t make it any harder for PC’s to hit me in WvW. We have this thing in GW2 called “auto targetting” which means that jumping all over the place like a kangaroo on speed doesn’t actually do you that much good.

DD seems like more of a novelty line of traits, something you do for a week or two to get some cool screenshots before going back to a real thief build that actually works.

The tool tips in the Daredevil line are hard to follow. I had to go to Dulfy for explanations on how some of them work. PIXELS ARE FREE, A-NET! Sheesh!

It feels like the Daredevil trait line can’t figure out what it wants to be. It tries to be offense here, defense there, and utility over in that direction. Pick one to concentrate on please. Trying to be a “well balanced” thief (or any class for that matter) means you either get crushed in WvW or you end up surviving, but accomplishing nothing. Balance is something to be accomplished overall when considering all the trait lines taken together, not something done in a single trait line. It’s like celestial armor, one of the most useless armors in the game because it tries to be a little bit of everything, meaning it’s not really good at anything. I think maybe there’s one build in one class that uses that armor.

DD feels like A-Net wants thieves to give up on being anything but condi. I despise condi builds.

Basically I see no reason to use the DD trait line. It has a few good traits here and there, but not enough to make it worthwhile to discard one of the good trait lines I’m already using. Maybe if I had a condi build I would feel differently. If that’s the case, it’s just another nail in the coffin of anyone who isn’t a condi thief.

Condi thief…??How did that get mixed up in there? It’s not doing good righ now anyway if you mean ballerina thieves then I’ll remind you that Death Blossom is still the same.

I keep coming back to Thief subforum hoping to see red marker when i scroll through this thread, but nothing. Is only 1 irrelevant post all we get after beta weekend? At least acknowledging stuff that’s written here would make people extremely happy and would silence posts like mine.

People should just stop giving feedback until there’s actually someone that listens to it and says something about it; whether it’s positive or negative answer on certain solutions players offer. 3 months ago when I started GW2 I had the idea that Anet is better than most developers out there because I saw on forum devs answering some questions (maybe I accidentally hit the posts devs made appearance in), but after this silence my opinion quickly turned 180.

I hate to bring this here, but recently on Kickstarter one game developer got their project funded in 12 hours, and is now pushing to get triple that amount.
Reason? People worship the ground under their feet.
Why? They have the best public relation I’ve ever seen.
Almost every relevant comment on their kickstarter, facebook, youtube or forum gets an answer from someone from their team, even the boss comes in to pitch in ocasionally.
That is the way how to properly manage unruly gaming community and not this silence.

/rant

They did say elsewhere to expect some red posts over the next few days giving out a “state of the post BWE” on various things. they didn’t say on DD specifically, but hopefully they touch on all classes.