Guild Wars 2

babazhook.6805:

>>With d/d, at least in PvE, the moment you stop spamming D/B, it becomes not hybrid. Poison isn’t a direct damage condition, its purpose is to hinder healing, not do a buttload of hurt like bleed or torment. So in other words, the way you’re supposed use d/d is to just spam DB over and over again and that’s it? That doesn’t sound right.

Again you do not understand the concept of a hybrid build and switching out weapon sets.

In a hybrid build DB is great for laying down bleeds. More stacks is more damage. Heartseeker then becomes a very valuable finisher.

The number 5 skill is used equally in condi/power. Number 4 is the only skill underutilized.

Even in a pure condi build db can be used to effect. Try a build using panic strike followed by three deathblossoms. That far deadlier then p/d sneak attack and needs no stealth. Use devourers venom on a single DB. You can get a 12 second immob in a single attack and then load the bleeds on.

You already have plenty of direct damage coming from your d/d skill set. I fail to see why people need yet another focused on the same.

D/B is also great Aoe that can affect multiple targets. Some like the shortbow for this. I prefer d/d set. I see a person downed and a thief that casts refuge to rez him , I will db into the circle. I see a thief near dead that casts his refuge, I DB into the circle. My P/d set can do little here.

I will more often then not see that thief come out of his refuge downed due to that spam.

Claiming that d/d is no longer hybrid once you stop the DB is wrong. The bleeds are still ticking. with a typical duration of 40 percent they will tick and do their damage for 14 seconds unless cleansed which is more then twice as long as that P/d set which requires continual reapplication to work. Indeed P/d relies more on spam then does d/d when it comes to conditions because DB loads on longer bleeds faster. I can actually then USE more of those other skills rather then worry about keeping bleed stacks on.

In the time a p/d set can load 10 bleeds which is rare, I can load 12 and more then switch to heartseeker to finish.

When I solo champs in PVE (much harder to do not with megaserver) using a pure condi build or hybrid, the D/D weapon set takes them down faster. Torment is the only real advantage on the p/d set. As example there that branded Gneral and his army in the Iron marches.

If I solo him with a p/d set it takes forever. I use D/D and DB and can AOE him and his minions with 16 stacks of bleeds in short order. His minions will drop on their own from the bleeds in time so I can focus just on him. The built in evades coupled with my own means I never have to use stealth wasting INI and can load the utility bar with venoms.

Pretty much.

If you go condition damage, the poison from auto attack combined with death blossom bleeds can be devastating. Heart seeker is a nice gap closer regardless, cripple #4 will stack with your condition duration and so will vulnerability from cloak and dagger.
So although, yes D/D is deadly with a power build, I have also had large success running D/D with condition damage/duration.

death blossom os a junk skill even u go condi d/d

u wont just sit in the same spot stand still getting hit by the death blossom unless u are an idiot it is true that death blossom stack some crazy bleed but they are easily dodgeable and most of people use p/d set up for condi d/d for backstab burst…

Rukh.9287:

People in this game seem to still think they’re playing WoW and expect every skill on their bar to be useful in some dps meta button jamming puzzle. Its like people who use a knockback skill on cooldown just because it’s on their bar. You already have single-target damage. It doesn’t seem to occur to them that the evade might actually be the point. An AoE skill on a largely single-target weapon set might be the point. Kiting bleeds on a monster that would otherwise rip your face off might be the point.

If you played WoW, you would actually start thinking of other uses for your skills. It’s GW2 that promotes the DPS or nothing philosophy in PvE because in most dungeons in GW2, everyone is basically DPS and thats it.

An evade of 1/4 seconds with an awkward pre and aftercast is anything but reliable.

If I wanted to AoE, I’ll switch to a bow or sword. Thieves don’t have CDs on their skills so the second weapon is there for it, not for rotation’s sake.

>>u wont just sit in the same spot stand still getting hit by the death blossom unless u are an idiot it is true that death blossom stack some crazy bleed but they are easily dodgeable and most of people use p/d set up for condi d/d for backstab burst…

Oh please. This is like saying HS is junk.

I assure you I use DB in WvW and most people do not dodge them. I would point out again you use it in conjunction with other skills. This does not mean one uses DB all the time anymore then one would use heartseeker all the time.

I have just started trying an Elementalist in WvW. The Aoes can be dodged from meteor shower and are more telegraphed then a DB is. That hardly means it is junk.

You can not dodge if you have an IMMOB on. Again I can use Devourer venom in conjunction with a DB. They are not dodging that.

P/d inflicting bleeds counts on more spamming then does DB inflicting bleeds. P/d sneak attack can be dodged JUST like a DB. Uisng your logic p/d is useless.

All one need do is look at a single food and the relative effects it has on a bleed inflicted by DB and one by P/d.

40 percent food will add ONE MORE tick to a p/d bleed . 40 percent food will add 4 more ticks to a DB inflicted bleed. 4>1.

This allows a person that uses DB to inflict bleeds to use other foods and allows more flexibility in traiting. P/d users are under much more pressure to use duration foods or trait the duration line OR do nothing but spam the autoattack when they are fighting to keep the stacks on.

I prefer flexibility.

>>If I wanted to AoE, I’ll switch to a bow or sword. Thieves don’t have CDs on their skills so the second weapon is there for it, not for rotation’s sake.

This is YOUR choice. You started this thread claiming DB Useless. It is most assuredly not. That I choose to use it over a SB or over a sword in a given build does not mean I think the sword or the shortbow are useless. I have used both of those in various iterations of builds. My personal opinion on the shortbow is that it just feels too slow. It interrupts the flow of how I like to use my thief. That does not mean I think it useless because others can use it to greater effect.

babazhook.6805:

>>If I wanted to AoE, I’ll switch to a bow or sword. Thieves don’t have CDs on their skills so the second weapon is there for it, not for rotation’s sake.

This is YOUR choice. You started this thread claiming DB Useless. It is most assuredly not. That I choose to use it over a SB or over a sword in a given build does not mean I think the sword or the shortbow are useless. I have used both of those in various iterations of builds. My personal opinion on the shortbow is that it just feels too slow. It interrupts the flow of how I like to use my thief. That does not mean I think it useless because others can use it to greater effect.

Preferences doesn’t exactly matter in build optimization. The matter of fact is that clusterbomb does higher DPS when you blast at your feet.

‘I don’t like it because it interrupts my flow’ isn’t a valid argument when you buildcraft, just like ‘I put Powerful Banners into this warrior build because its awesome.’

Balancing is about efficiency and results, not about it feeling good or looking cool.

As I got near 80 I switched from a condi SB spam build to power D/D (trying a few other things first), and haven’t looked back.

Power D/D really doesn’t need another power-oriented weapon skill — it’s fine as it is. Frankly I see DB as a situational skill, just as I see HS or Dancing Dagger. I don’t use them in every fight, but they’re not worthless.

>>Preferences doesn’t exactly matter in build optimization. The matter of fact is that clusterbomb does higher DPS when you blast at your feet.

I do not play the game based upon what YOU and others think as the “optimal skill set”. Do not presume that everyone is led around by the nose playing “the current meta”.

If one wants to claim there no role for “preferences” then we might as well just have one profession in this game, that being the most “optimal” at inflicting damage.

Even inside the thief profession itself some PREFER direct damage, some prefer condition damage, some prefer stealth some prefer evasion. Are you really suggesting that these preferences have no role and we should all just take the most optimal build?

I use DB to greater effect in a given build then a SB can do.

I am using DB to inflict bleeds . It works better then the SB in this regard. If I was using a power build I would use other tactics. It is very efficient and very effective at inflicting bleeds. I know it because I used it.

You prefer using short bow then use it. .

babazhook.6805:

>>Preferences doesn’t exactly matter in build optimization. The matter of fact is that clusterbomb does higher DPS when you blast at your feet.

I do not play the game based upon what YOU and others think as the “optimal skill set”. Do not presume that everyone is led around by the nose playing “the current meta”.

If one wants to claim there no role for “preferences” then we might as well just have one profession in this game, that being the most “optimal” at inflicting damage.

Even inside the thief profession itself some PREFER direct damage, some prefer condition damage, some prefer stealth some prefer evasion. Are you really suggesting that these preferences have no role and we should all just take the most optimal build?

I use DB to greater effect in a given build then a SB can do.

I am using DB to inflict bleeds . It works better then the SB in this regard. If I was using a power build I would use other tactics. It is very efficient and very effective at inflicting bleeds. I know it because I used it.

You prefer using short bow then use it. .

The truth is that if you want to optimise, which is what the ‘useless’ in the title refers to, your preference has no role in it. Having a build which has low damage and high stealth uptime is not optimised in in say, CoE because that stealth has no use. That is a fact.

I’m not saying you should take the most optimal build. Whether to optimise or play as you want is up to you, but if you want to optimise your character, which is what balancing addresses, it goes without saying that you use an optimised build.

You’re using DB to inflict bleeds. Great. then what do you use the other skills for?

DB is very efficient at inflicting bleeds. Great. DB spam is a nice condition build. Then in your PvE build, what are the other skills used for?

Xae Isareth.1364:

The truth is that if you want to optimise, which is what the ‘useless’ in the title refers to, your preference has no role in it.

In other words, ‘useless’ does not actually mean ‘useless’.

If someone who was a fan of a DB spam build started a thread titles “Cloak & Dagger: Useless?” don’t you think people would be all over it claiming that, in their builds, it is absolutely not useless?

And how would that be any different?

Xae Isareth.1364:

You’re using DB to inflict bleeds. Great. then what do you use the other skills for?

As you no doubt already know, you don’t need any other weapon skills with a DB spam build, except for the occasional autoattack. That doesn’t mean the build is broken or the skills are broken. It means that it’s a build that doesn’t require 5 weapon skills.

A power D/D backstab build also only requires 2 weapon skills at its core.

You don’t have to use every skill on your bar if you don’t actually need them.

>>You’re using DB to inflict bleeds. Great. then what do you use the other skills for?

>>DB is very efficient at inflicting bleeds. Great. DB spam is a nice condition build. Then in your PvE build, what are the other skills used for?

I have already SAID what they are used for.

What are the differences between a p/d build and a d/d build? They are the first three skills. The A/A attack chain. Heartseeker and Deathblossom as opposed to the A/A attack chain of the pistol , and body shot.

The last two are the same but Dancing daggers is generally used MORE in a condi build simply because it will usually have a longer duration. That said BOTH builds do not use it a lot.

So the only three attacks to look at are the first three spots.

D/b works better for a Condi build. Heartseeker works better for a direct damage build. A hybrid build will use them both.

The AA attack chain restores endurance and inflicts poison > Both of these are useful to a condi build. The poison is great for when you are between steals and any other poison has worn off. Keeping a high poison up time helps ensure success and is another cover. Endurance is endurance helping to allow another dodge. P/d does not have its own poison nor does it gen endurance.

With a condition p/d set you really do not use dancing daggers or body shot a lot. You need that INI for your CND. If one is using DB for bleeds you free up ini and can use those other skills more frequently.

Typical weapon rotation in PVE is this. DB in and use DB three times to get 9 stacks on. Swap. Torment and shadowstrike away. Steal in shadowstrike away. Fire a couple AA’s from the pistol. Load venoms. DB in again. That in and out means you will take very little damage. Throw in RFI and withdraw as the heal and INI rarely a concern.

It takes 1.5 seconds to get off 3 dbs for nine stacks of bleed at the cost of 12 ini. You can only get three attacks off in that length of time using the Auto on pistol for three stacks of bleeds. 9>3. If one stealths with pistol using CND 6 ini is burned for 5 shorter lived stacks.

DB is far more efficient at bleed stacking. The advantage of P/d is the stealth itself. Not the bleeds.

Try it. You will find in a condi build using d/b fior your bleeds allows you to use MORE of the other skills of a given weaponset simply because you tend to have more ini.

You will find specifically in PvE that when fighting mutiple enemies at once they go down far faster. That 4 ini can lay down 3 stacks of bleeds on 5 different creatures in that .5 seconds. You can not do this with p/d.

They should rework death blossom so it has a better evade, slightly more damage, and stacks vulnerability instead of bleed.

Lols, Am I the only one that runs Condi p/d /d/d build?

Bleet.1094:

Lols, Am I the only one that runs Condi p/d /d/d build?

Maybe. Why would you run d/d with p/d? Not having the Shortbow available feels like fighting with one hand tied behind my back. I suppose you could bring d/d for the DB bleeds and a carrion/hybrid can put the power to use in for a surprise backstab or heartseeker, but with condition or hybrid gear Sneak Attacks hits harder then Backstab. That just illustrates just the problem with DB, it is a fully condition dependent attack on an otherwise power based set.

sometimes i press ‘3’ accidentally and i watch my thief do the silly flip. It actually hurts a little inside when that happens, in my mind it looks like my thief is spinning and literally throwing initiative at people xP if you use death blossom on a guardian symbol, you can actually see the initiative flying away never to return!

Foosnark.1784:

Xae Isareth.1364:

The truth is that if you want to optimise, which is what the ‘useless’ in the title refers to, your preference has no role in it.

In other words, ‘useless’ does not actually mean ‘useless’.

If someone who was a fan of a DB spam build started a thread titles “Cloak & Dagger: Useless?” don’t you think people would be all over it claiming that, in their builds, it is absolutely not useless?

And how would that be any different?

Xae Isareth.1364:

You’re using DB to inflict bleeds. Great. then what do you use the other skills for?

As you no doubt already know, you don’t need any other weapon skills with a DB spam build, except for the occasional autoattack. That doesn’t mean the build is broken or the skills are broken. It means that it’s a build that doesn’t require 5 weapon skills.

A power D/D backstab build also only requires 2 weapon skills at its core.

You don’t have to use every skill on your bar if you don’t actually need them.

Actually, Heartseeker is still effective as a finisher in a DB spam build. You typically stack bleeds at the start of a fight, which lets your ini regenerate while you autoattack and your bleeds are ticking. When they get low, you don’t need to stack more bleeds so instead you use your ini to finish them off with Heartseeker.

frans.8092:

Bleet.1094:

Lols, Am I the only one that runs Condi p/d /d/d build?

Maybe. Why would you run d/d with p/d? Not having the Shortbow available feels like fighting with one hand tied behind my back. I suppose you could bring d/d for the DB bleeds and a carrion/hybrid can put the power to use in for a surprise backstab or heartseeker, but with condition or hybrid gear Sneak Attacks hits harder then Backstab. That just illustrates just the problem with DB, it is a fully condition dependent attack on an otherwise power based set.

No, he isn’t. There are reasons to use D/D over SB coupled with P/D, not the least of which being that it’s melee. Also, neither Cluster Bomb nor Vital Shot are as effective at stacking bleeds as Death Blossom is, and with the latter you’re in melee range so you can easily supplement with Caltrops and still have Initiative to Heartseek weak enemies.

There is seriously no basis whatsoever for positing that DB is in any way useless. You may not have too many uses for it if you have a full power build, but so what? Virtually all weapons in the game have skills that are more or less useful based on your build, and lots of people use D/D without full power builds, particularly since it’s one of only two melee weapons and the other one has no condition whatsoever, and the set works fine already for power.

So I went out in full Dire in WvW with DB as main attach and rolled camps and solos / duos all evening. Still love the skill.

Went into sPvP had a much harder time of course with no food and lots of 5v5 in the face but it performed very well in most situations still. Just longer fights, but interestingly did really well versus the folks people hate in there right now (turret engis, hambows and minion necros).

I simply really enjoy it despite the heavy Bleed bias and condition management by enemy classes.

Foosnark.1784:

Xae Isareth.1364:

The truth is that if you want to optimise, which is what the ‘useless’ in the title refers to, your preference has no role in it.

In other words, ‘useless’ does not actually mean ‘useless’.

If someone who was a fan of a DB spam build started a thread titles “Cloak & Dagger: Useless?” don’t you think people would be all over it claiming that, in their builds, it is absolutely not useless?

And how would that be any different?

Xae Isareth.1364:

You’re using DB to inflict bleeds. Great. then what do you use the other skills for?

As you no doubt already know, you don’t need any other weapon skills with a DB spam build, except for the occasional autoattack. That doesn’t mean the build is broken or the skills are broken. It means that it’s a build that doesn’t require 5 weapon skills.

A power D/D backstab build also only requires 2 weapon skills at its core.

You don’t have to use every skill on your bar if you don’t actually need them.

It is useless in an optimized build. When you go into PHIW land, there is no debate to start with. Heck staff guardian #1 is useful in a single target fight because Gandalf is awesome.

A fixed weapon set should never have contradictory skills which don’t work together.

DB for PvE only works in a DB spam build. I don’t think that’s a design decision. No sensible developer would intend you to go and spam one skill over and over.

>>DB for PvE only works in a DB spam build. I don’t think that’s a design decision. No sensible developer would intend you to go and spam one skill over and over.

You would be wrong. There a reason thieves use INI. That is so they can use a same skill several times over. Other classes have cool downs to prevent that.

A condition build that relies on bleeds for its damage needs to see the player apply bleeds over and over again.

The Thief has less sources of these bleeds then does the warrior or necro. Due to the nature of ini it is pointless to give more separate sources of bleeds on his weapon set.

Just take the warrior as example on his bleed set weapon the sword.

There are two bleeds on the AA chain of 8 seconds each. There is a bleed on the immobilize of the burst skill of 8! stacks. There is one on riposte that adds 4 stacks for 12 seconds.

All of those others will go on cool down.

The Thief is not limited by Cool Downs so the thief uses the same skill several times in a row to achieve the same effect. If it PD then it a spam of #1 to apply bleed. It is d/d then it a spam of #3 to apply bleed.

The INI limits both sources even though the P/d source costs no ini by using much lower bleed durations on the auto attack meaning INI has to be used to get a sneak attack off.

The INTENT of the ini system is to allow the choice to spa. It comes with risk but the choice is there. If we went to a cooldown system then in order for conditions to work at all on a thief MORE SOURCES would have to be added.

The reason there only one source on each condi weapon set of bleeds is not because “D?D was intended to be direct damage” it was because only one source is needed for bleeds.

As someone stated previously in the post we can talk about this skill both in pve and in pvp:

For pve i don’t mind if i have one skill that is not usefull in the setup i use. In fact it’s a great condition pve skill and the 1/2/5 skills are usefull enough to do everything i want when i run with a power build

But for pvp well optimisation is important and in that case if i run a full power build, having one skill i have no use for on my bar is annoying.

I Feel like thief need a rework some mechanics are not really fine like this skill having NOTHING to do in a pvp power build.

>>But for pvp well optimisation is important and in that case if i run a full power build, having one skill i have no use for on my bar is annoying.

Yet, what would be more annoying , is being forced to use JUST the p/d (and to lessor extent SB) set if one wants a condition based thief which is what those requesting changes to DB are in fact advocating.

I have run with power and condition builds.

Power works with every weapon set. Even P/d can be made to work in a power set.

S/d p/p d/d d/p all work in a power set.

Yet people are insisting one of the few sources of bleeds available be removed so even more given to the power user.

So what. The D/d set has one skill not favoring power> There a plethora of choices available that favor power in battle. Why add more and take away one of the only three sources of bleeds we have just because YOU want your PvP build optimized for YOUR purposes?

babazhook.6805:

So what. The D/d set has one skill not favoring power> There a plethora of choices available that favor power in battle. Why add more and take away one of the only three sources of bleeds we have just because YOU want your PvP build optimized for YOUR purposes?

I think your argument makes more sense in reverse… i think it is safe to say that d/d power users greatlyyyy outnumber d/d condi users. (TBH i’ve only ever met 1 d/d condi user in game…) Making your “us” vs. “YOU” standpoint kinda… well… weird Oo

Condi fundamentally is not ideal for most parts of the game, which i think is a design flaw… (bleed caps, overlapping condis, lower dps… etc) Thieves are also not the ideal condi users either, only in a very specific niche do they stand out (wvw roaming). Furthermore, DB on the D/D set is lackluster even in the very specific area condi thieves are good at…

On the flip side, power D/D thieves have suffered alot due to the recent patch changes (AKA. nerf all the things!) like ferocity. The set has not been optimal in a long time and these changes made it even less viable.

One of the most glaring issues with D/D is how high the skill floor is to be able to even play it against other players while at the same time is absurdly predictable in the way you have to play in order to dish out any damage at all.

Having a useless ‘3’ skill (for a power D/D thief) really isn’t acceptable in this situation : / while having only 1 skill on an entire weapon set that you can use isn’t acceptable either (for a condi D/D thief). However, you cannot change the 1 & 2 skills as it would greatly impact d/p thieves which cannot condi at all… and you cannot change the 5 skill either as multiple weapon sets depend on it to work…. so… yesh… logically speaking… please change DB!

Emi

babazhook.6805:

>>But for pvp well optimisation is important and in that case if i run a full power build, having one skill i have no use for on my bar is annoying.

Yet, what would be more annoying , is being forced to use JUST the p/d (and to lessor extent SB) set if one wants a condition based thief which is what those requesting changes to DB are in fact advocating.

If you re-read the end of my post i ask for a thief rework that’s not just simply removing death blossom but making it attractive to everyone or making the entire D/D set more specialized. Anyway the D/D set is not really meta in pvp atm.

The problem of death blossom is that initiative have a big drawback: with this system every skill have to be usefull…If we had a cooldown based class, we could use this skill as a situational dodge or as a stopgap in our cycle

Here we can’t do this simply because using this skill in a power based build mean losing initiative

For PvE, the one instance where I can think of where death blossom is actually useful is for the volcanic fractal vs the last legendary imbued grawl shaman. When he goes into bubble phase and you don’t have projectile absorption to cover you, death blossom is very good at removing bubble stacks while evading the lava elemental attacks.

>>Here we can’t do this simply because using this skill in a power based build mean losing initiative

This is the nature of initiative. It not because there bleeds on Death blossom. It has little to do with “power build” or “condition” build and everything to do with INI and damage output versus utility.

As example a power build p/p will rely heavily on unload simply because using INI on other skills cuts into the damage output of the unloads.

The cure to this is to give some “other” reason to use that skill in a defined build. So as example upping the length of the evade frame in the DB would allow it to become a source of evades for a power build.

Robbing Peter to pay Paul when Peter already has a paucity of weapon skills that inflict bleeds is not sound game design.

babazhook.6805:

>>Here we can’t do this simply because using this skill in a power based build mean losing initiative

This is the nature of initiative. It not because there bleeds on Death blossom. It has little to do with “power build” or “condition” build and everything to do with INI and damage output versus utility.

As example a power build p/p will rely heavily on unload simply because using INI on other skills cuts into the damage output of the unloads.

The cure to this is to give some “other” reason to use that skill in a defined build. So as example upping the length of the evade frame in the DB would allow it to become a source of evades for a power build.

Robbing Peter to pay Paul when Peter already has a paucity of weapon skills that inflict bleeds is not sound game design.

I kinda of feel like the short evade window is the most obvious design problem with DB. If the length was longer, like say the actual length of the animation, you would have more uses for it even in a power build.

>>I think your argument makes more sense in reverse… i think it is safe to say that d/d power users greatlyyyy outnumber d/d condi users. (TBH i’ve only ever met 1 d/d condi user in game…) Making your “us” vs. “YOU” standpoint kinda… well… weird Oo

Oh there more then one. The skill floor is higher in a d/d build which is why you do not see as many. P/d is much easier.

There are still a lot of power build d/d users. LOTS. Nothing was changed on DB so how can you link the nerf to ferocity with whether DB useful in a ppower build. They are not related.

babazhook.6805:

Oh there more then one. The skill floor is higher in a d/d build which is why you do not see as many. P/d is much easier.

There are still a lot of power build d/d users. LOTS. Nothing was changed on DB so how can you link the nerf to ferocity with whether DB useful in a ppower build. They are not related.

There are still a lot of power build d/d users because regardless of it’s problems, it’s still the go to set for instant up front damage.

The reason i’m linking the nerf to ferocity with DB because;
1. due to this nerf, fights are now inherently longer.
2. the effectiveness of power d/d goes down significantly the longer the fight goes on due to it’s predictable nature compared to other thief weaponsets. having only… 2 viable skills. (cnd & hs). dancing dagger is very unreliable and DB is well… :x
3. theres a glaringly empty spot in the middle of the d/d skillbar that could potentially be changed to a skill that adds SOME sort of utility worth using that could help a d/d thief be more unpredictable/better adapt to the current environment.

Don’t get me wrong, they should change the set to be condi or power focused. Having a build that relies on only 2 skills is silly… just as silly as a build that relies on only 1 skill :P

babazhook.6805:

>>DB for PvE only works in a DB spam build. I don’t think that’s a design decision. No sensible developer would intend you to go and spam one skill over and over.

You would be wrong. There a reason thieves use INI. That is so they can use a same skill several times over. Other classes have cool downs to prevent that.

A condition build that relies on bleeds for its damage needs to see the player apply bleeds over and over again.

The Thief has less sources of these bleeds then does the warrior or necro. Due to the nature of ini it is pointless to give more separate sources of bleeds on his weapon set.

Just take the warrior as example on his bleed set weapon the sword.

There are two bleeds on the AA chain of 8 seconds each. There is a bleed on the immobilize of the burst skill of 8! stacks. There is one on riposte that adds 4 stacks for 12 seconds.

All of those others will go on cool down.

The Thief is not limited by Cool Downs so the thief uses the same skill several times in a row to achieve the same effect. If it PD then it a spam of #1 to apply bleed. It is d/d then it a spam of #3 to apply bleed.

The INI limits both sources even though the P/d source costs no ini by using much lower bleed durations on the auto attack meaning INI has to be used to get a sneak attack off.

The INTENT of the ini system is to allow the choice to spa. It comes with risk but the choice is there. If we went to a cooldown system then in order for conditions to work at all on a thief MORE SOURCES would have to be added.

The reason there only one source on each condi weapon set of bleeds is not because “D?D was intended to be direct damage” it was because only one source is needed for bleeds.

No we have iniatitive to make quick decisions, spamming them comes with little reward. If you think you’re optimal spamming DB then I say dance with the stars. Truth is, your “preference” isn’t viable in about 90% of the game which is where the “useless” part comes from the title. I may enjoy spamming p/p unload for lolz in some pve encounters, doesn’t mean its bad but p/p most certainly isn’t good in a majority of the game.

Applying 1 condition over and over is great, if your target never removes conditions. Again, you’re talking about 1 aspect of the game which has little to no influence on balance. Condi removal prioritized damage conditions, so you can waste all the time in the world reapplying just bleeds, either your target is kitten or you’ll be dead before you reach them.

Bottom line, DB is not an effective skill. As an evade it is far to clunky, as a condition applier it is very short moving and easily avoided and has few cover up conditions, as a power skill it doesn’t hit hard. Comparing DB to vital shot is pointless because p/d is a viable condi set where it matters, d/d is simply not. That is not a preference, it’s a fact proven from the lack of people using it and threads like this.

>>Bottom line, DB is not an effective skill. As an evade it is far to clunky, as a condition applier it is very short moving and easily avoided and has few cover up conditions, as a power skill it doesn’t hit hard. Comparing DB to vital shot is pointless because p/d is a viable condi set where it matters, d/d is simply not. That is not a preference, it’s a fact proven from the lack of people using it and threads like this.

Bottom line . It works fine.

I have access to plenty of “cover conditions”. My steal alone can add poison, weakness and Confusion. I can also get blind (traited) and vulnerabilty and cripple using the d/d set. It also has its own poison in case I am between steals.

As far as total conditions go the P/d set has one extra over d/d. Torment and immob as compared to poison. One less condition is not going to break your build due to lack of “cover”.

Using the auto attack on P/d applies only ONE condition juts like using DB on d/d applies only ONE condition. In order to apply a cover condition on P/d you have to use another attack type just as you do with D/d. There is no difference outside INI costs and one being ranged over the other adding more bleeds for longer durations.

It is not that hard to add cover conditions.

>>Condi removal prioritized damage conditions, so you can waste all the time in the world reapplying just bleeds, either your target is kitten or you’ll be dead before you reach them.

What are you talking about? This statement makes no sense at all. If condition removal prioritized damaging conditions covers would be pointless. Thieves have mobility. They have ways of getting to a target without being hit enroute. What do you think a thief has to do in order to use Cnd or for that matter shadowstrike?

please dun compare condi p/d to condi d/d….

condi p/d is a little OP atm… while condi d/d is… very UP…

the only things condi d/d does better is… the little amount of AOE DB has… and a hard to use evasion…

p/d has…;
1. higher DPS
2. at range…
3. with more types of condi…
4. much harder to predict…
5. the same amount of mobility in combat (p/d is better at opening gaps while d/d is better at closing them)
6. less ini hungry
7. IMO better survivaliblity (range > melee; gap opening > gap closing)

on the other hand! if you compare condi d/d with condi SB…

SB…;
1. has the same amount of mobility (and easier to use)
2. is ranged…
3. is not as good at applying bleeds (the closer you are to the target, the less of an gap this becomes)
4. better at applying poison (ranged AOE instead of single target on the 3rd hit…)
5. has a more reliable evade skill
6. has a more reliable cripple…

i would argue that condi d/d is worse off than condi SB, let alone p/d!

yet… yes i would agree that DB works fine as a condi skill… thats not the problem! The reason it’s not viable is not due to DB, it’s not viable because it doesn’t have any other viable skills on the weaponset! (for condi)

Babazhook, you’re missing the point. You can’t compare a build’s traits to how effective a weapon set is. Sure you can steal and apply poison weakness and some confusion, then you get a cnd off every now and then for vuln and possibly blind. That has nothing to do with whether or not DB is a good skill or not. It still doesn’t disprove my point that the bleed’s you’re applying and reapplying are prioritized when condi removal comes around. There is a reason d/d condi isn’t popular, and it’s not because its harder or some kitten excuse, it’s because it underperforms against other condi sets in just about every way.

SB has it way easier in applying those 2 conditions, still has a cripple and would have a better evade if it weren’t mega nerfed (hopefully it will be fixed for all soon, rangers have the same crap). P/d may not apply 3x stacks for the longer duration, but keep in mind it’s an aa, and the stealth attack hits hard, and then you can mix in shadow strike if they get close (which is a damaging condition), use body shot right before a CnD to better your chances of hitting them. P/d as a set is far stronger and much more reliable than d/d.

There is no point in including any outside sources like sigils or traits because that has 0 place in this discussion. This isn’t about builds, it’s about DB not having a viable place atm. DB needs to work well in some way whether it moves you further, or becomes a full evade (with a small aftercast to prevent perma evade), or gets some different function like destroy projectiles instead of evading, idk. What we have now simply isn’t attractive aside from being a norn and ballerina dancing around.

babazhook.6805:

>>DB for PvE only works in a DB spam build. I don’t think that’s a design decision. No sensible developer would intend you to go and spam one skill over and over.

You would be wrong. There a reason thieves use INI. That is so they can use a same skill several times over. Other classes have cool downs to prevent that.

A condition build that relies on bleeds for its damage needs to see the player apply bleeds over and over again.

The Thief has less sources of these bleeds then does the warrior or necro. Due to the nature of ini it is pointless to give more separate sources of bleeds on his weapon set.

Just take the warrior as example on his bleed set weapon the sword.

There are two bleeds on the AA chain of 8 seconds each. There is a bleed on the immobilize of the burst skill of 8! stacks. There is one on riposte that adds 4 stacks for 12 seconds.

All of those others will go on cool down.

The Thief is not limited by Cool Downs so the thief uses the same skill several times in a row to achieve the same effect. If it PD then it a spam of #1 to apply bleed. It is d/d then it a spam of #3 to apply bleed.

The INI limits both sources even though the P/d source costs no ini by using much lower bleed durations on the auto attack meaning INI has to be used to get a sneak attack off.

The INTENT of the ini system is to allow the choice to spa. It comes with risk but the choice is there. If we went to a cooldown system then in order for conditions to work at all on a thief MORE SOURCES would have to be added.

The reason there only one source on each condi weapon set of bleeds is not because “D?D was intended to be direct damage” it was because only one source is needed for bleeds.

You don’t have that choice with d/d. Your AA doesn’t use INI, your steal is a CD, and your other skills are all power-based. So the only thing which is worth spending INI on is DB in a pure condi build.

The only thing I can imagine where other skills would come into play and you would use a condi build would be if you had a fight where it’s necessary to take down a boss with conditions but there’s phases where you need burst direct damage. Anet doesn’t want to make anything necessary or design encounters which forces you to use a certain build, so that just seems moot.

If by design you’re just supposed to spam DB and that’s it on D/D… then I can’t imagine what were they thinking, because having 1 button gameplay is never a good idea.

What they could do to salvage this problem a bit is to give thieves a 10% damage bonus against bleeding targets. Then at least in a solo environment, DB would be perfect: just the right bleed duration where you would use DB regularly but not spam it to keep up bleed uptime.

Xae Isareth.1364:

babazhook.6805:

>>DB for PvE only works in a DB spam build. I don’t think that’s a design decision. No sensible developer would intend you to go and spam one skill over and over.

You would be wrong. There a reason thieves use INI. That is so they can use a same skill several times over. Other classes have cool downs to prevent that.

A condition build that relies on bleeds for its damage needs to see the player apply bleeds over and over again.

The Thief has less sources of these bleeds then does the warrior or necro. Due to the nature of ini it is pointless to give more separate sources of bleeds on his weapon set.

Just take the warrior as example on his bleed set weapon the sword.

There are two bleeds on the AA chain of 8 seconds each. There is a bleed on the immobilize of the burst skill of 8! stacks. There is one on riposte that adds 4 stacks for 12 seconds.

All of those others will go on cool down.

The Thief is not limited by Cool Downs so the thief uses the same skill several times in a row to achieve the same effect. If it PD then it a spam of #1 to apply bleed. It is d/d then it a spam of #3 to apply bleed.

The INI limits both sources even though the P/d source costs no ini by using much lower bleed durations on the auto attack meaning INI has to be used to get a sneak attack off.

The INTENT of the ini system is to allow the choice to spa. It comes with risk but the choice is there. If we went to a cooldown system then in order for conditions to work at all on a thief MORE SOURCES would have to be added.

The reason there only one source on each condi weapon set of bleeds is not because “D?D was intended to be direct damage” it was because only one source is needed for bleeds.

You don’t have that choice with d/d. Your AA doesn’t use INI, your steal is a CD, and your other skills are all power-based. So the only thing which is worth spending INI on is DB in a pure condi build.

The only thing I can imagine where other skills would come into play and you would use a condi build would be if you had a fight where it’s necessary to take down a boss with conditions but there’s phases where you need burst direct damage. Anet doesn’t want to make anything necessary or design encounters which forces you to use a certain build, so that just seems moot.

If by design you’re just supposed to spam DB and that’s it on D/D… then I can’t imagine what were they thinking, because having 1 button gameplay is never a good idea.

What they could do to salvage this problem a bit is to give thieves a 10% damage bonus against bleeding targets. Then at least in a solo environment, DB would be perfect: just the right bleed duration where you would use DB regularly but not spam it to keep up bleed uptime.

No, you’re still hung up on false dichotomies between condition and physical damage skills. I use Heartseeker all the time with condi builds, and Dancing Dagger sometimes if I feel like the cripple will be useful (such as kiting in a caltrops field). The way it happens you deplete your initiative on bleeds at the start of a fight but rarely need to keep applying them as your ini regenerates because each stack lasts for a while. As your bleeds tick for large damage, you typically can afford to use your Initiative for other things as it regenerates. Heartseeker is very often a better use for that Initiative than more bleeding is, even in a build that emphasizes conditions, simply because at the low threshold it’s much stronger than your autoattack and at that point you don’t benefit much from applying more bleeds.

Moreover, the 1-button spam you’re complaining about actually applies more accurately to another Thief set which is obviously designed to work that way – P/P. I’ve always argued that design is stupid as well, but it’s more egregious on P/P than it is on D/D. You probably aren’t complaining about it because it’s power based.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the autoattack lands numerous blows very quickly, meaning that with a condi build you can sigil it for bleed application and it’ll do a well above average job. That’s the main reason I’m kind of a fan of Rampager stats. Note that I am not saying that it beats or even matches a full Berserker setup in raw DPS, nor have I ever argued that. What I am arguing is that it’s still very solid DPS-wise while being much more versatile AND quite fun to play, especially in PvE where condition cleansing is minimal and opponents have varying levels of toughness.

DB is not useless, period, and I don’t want to see it change in any fundamental way. The only thing it may arguably need is a longer evade frame.

Einlanzer.1627:

Moreover, the 1-button spam you’re complaining about actually applies more accurately to another Thief set which is obviously designed to work that way – P/P. I’ve always argued that design is stupid as well, but it’s more egregious on P/P than it is on D/D. You probably aren’t complaining about it because it’s power based.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the autoattack lands numerous blows very quickly, meaning that with a condi build you can sigil it for bleed application and it’ll do a well above average job. That’s the main reason I’m kind of a fan of Rampager stats. Note that I am not saying that it beats or even matches a full Berserker setup in raw DPS, nor have I ever argued that. What I am arguing is that it’s still very solid DPS-wise while being much more versatile AND quite fun to play, especially in PvE where condition cleansing is minimal and opponents have varying levels of toughness.

DB is not useless, period, and I don’t want to see it change in any fundamental way. The only thing it may arguably need is a longer evade frame.

changing to rampager on condi d/d just means you have lower dps and lower def than a p/d thief xP

where in pve is condi d/d good? trash monsters die before you can even hit it a couple of times. in fractals… please dont x.×.... in dungeons… melee condi… please dont x.×.... group events… your condis hit the cap instantly… world bosses… same thing…

so basically the only place condi d/d is usable is… solo map clearing…………… or very small scale events….

btw, p/p thief is also not viable. we’re not talking about it because well… the post was about.. death blossom :x….

Death Blossom is not fine. period <- people like to use this alot what does it even mean? i’m right you’re wrong so hush?

edit rather the entire d/d set is not fine, both power and condi.

Emi.4152:

Einlanzer.1627:

Moreover, the 1-button spam you’re complaining about actually applies more accurately to another Thief set which is obviously designed to work that way – P/P. I’ve always argued that design is stupid as well, but it’s more egregious on P/P than it is on D/D. You probably aren’t complaining about it because it’s power based.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the autoattack lands numerous blows very quickly, meaning that with a condi build you can sigil it for bleed application and it’ll do a well above average job. That’s the main reason I’m kind of a fan of Rampager stats. Note that I am not saying that it beats or even matches a full Berserker setup in raw DPS, nor have I ever argued that. What I am arguing is that it’s still very solid DPS-wise while being much more versatile AND quite fun to play, especially in PvE where condition cleansing is minimal and opponents have varying levels of toughness.

DB is not useless, period, and I don’t want to see it change in any fundamental way. The only thing it may arguably need is a longer evade frame.

changing to rampager on condi d/d just means you have lower dps and lower def than a p/d thief xP

where in pve is condi d/d good? trash monsters die before you can even hit it a couple of times. in fractals… please dont x.×.... in dungeons… melee condi… please dont x.×.... group events… your condis hit the cap instantly… world bosses… same thing…

so basically the only place condi d/d is usable is… solo map clearing…………… or very small scale events….

btw, p/p thief is also not viable. we’re not talking about it because well… the post was about.. death blossom :x….

Death Blossom is not fine. period <- people like to use this alot what does it even mean? i’m right you’re wrong so hush?

edit rather the entire d/d set is not fine, both power and condi.

I disagree. DB lays down bleeds with much greater ease than P/D does, actually – especially when you’re fighting more than one mob, and the fact that it’s a melee set means you get more use out of caltrops to supplement it. The only time DB is “bad” is when any condition damage is bad, like in world zerg events. Otherwise, it’s very functional.

>>where in pve is condi d/d good? trash monsters die before you can even hit it a couple of times. in fractals… please dont x.×…. in dungeons… melee condi… please dont x.×…. group events… your condis hit the cap instantly… world bosses… same thing…

There are all manner of examples. Go to ORR when there those waves of undead attack. DB works great in those mobs. Drop a caltrops, DB in a few times and they drop like flies.

The same with any of the events where there waves of attackers. I have used P/d and d/d builds , power and condition and the condition build using DB works the fastest. (the onset of megaserver changes things up as it rarer to have events like that where there only yourself or one or two others)

I have timed myself using P/d and d/d taking down champs or veterans solo. D?D using deathblossom works fastest. Trait in a SOM and or assassins reward and you barely take damage.

>>changing to rampager on condi d/d just means you have lower dps and lower def than a p/d thief xP

You change to rampager for a hybrid build. It works very well. I have a hybrid build with 880 base condi damage and power of 2400 with a 45 percent crit rate. This is using rampagers.

You do not get the raw damage of a crit oriented build but 12 stacks of bleeds is doing over 1k a tick and that is not shabby when you have that higher raw damage as well.

Ie use that heartseeker or cnd to finish.

it also much less frustrating taking out siege if you are hybrid.

babazhook.6805:

it also much less frustrating taking out siege if you are hybrid.

Wha? Condition damage isn’t factored into structure damage. I’d rather spam cluster bomb or pw than twirl for minimal damage. Besides what does siege removal have anything to do with this conversation?

As for the Orr minon part, I can stack the mobs up and use pw and be just as effective without pulling the mobs away from the stack and looking ridiculous. Those things die so quick anyways that before the bleeds start pumping “good” numbers they’re already dead so again, I still don’t see how you consider it viable.

DB isn’t better than anything at anything. Doesn’t necessarily mean buff it to unreasonable ends so people get new toys to break things with, it just means this skill needs to decide what it can be used for and lean towards that instead of trying to multi task and failing at all three. Sorry but I’m not seeing any place where db is a positive force, even in pve and that’s just sad.

P.S ricochet turns p/d into a somewhat multi target skill, which includes sneak attack. Just sayin, you do have that option to “aoe” bleed and still retain all the goodies that p/d carries with it.

>>Wha? Condition damage isn’t factored into structure damage. I’d rather spam cluster bomb or pw than twirl for minimal damage. Besides what does siege removal have anything to do with this conversation?

You are just arguing now for the sake of it.

On Siege. I was pointing out why a person would want to use Rampager in a hyrbid build. The person asked another why another would use rampager. I stated quite clearly that condition damage specs are weak against siege which can be mitigated somewhat using a hybrid build which rampager allows.

If one is a condition build, PW is pointless. You don’t see how DB is viable there but PW is? The AOE of db hits in 360 degrees. The cleave portion of PW does not.

You do not see it because you simply do not seem to grasp how condition builds work.

There no way on earth Ricochet can compare to DB when inflicting bleeds. There no way on earth a Shortbow can lay down bleeds as effectively as death blossom.

Added to that you , much like the original poster , are unable to understand that using a d/d set does not preclude P/d in a set.

I use both. You are allowed two weapon sets. When I want bleeds on fast I use DB. When I am more conservative I use P/d. Nothing in the game forces me to use one weapon set. The game is fluid and dynamics change making one source preferable over others at any given time.

DB is NOT useless. It is the single best source of bleed damage in the game for a condition specced thief. That the bleed from P/d has no INI cost is its real advantage (along with range) but this akin to claiming CnD and backstab “useless” because autoattacks on the d/d set are free.

As I stated in my original posts on this issue all is needed is a boost to the evade frame.

babazhook.6805:

On Siege. I was pointing out why a person would want to use Rampager in a hyrbid build. The person asked another why another would use rampager. I stated quite clearly that condition damage specs are weak against siege which can be mitigated somewhat using a hybrid build which rampager allows.

That kinda makes sense… just thinking that it’s still pretty hard to take down siege even with my zerker thief if anyones defending. siege has lots of HP, especially sup ones.

If one is a condition build, PW is pointless. You don’t see how DB is viable there but PW is? The AOE of db hits in 360 degrees. The cleave portion of PW does not.

i think he was comparing condi d/d with power s/p. i think ninja’s argument is that; if you want to take out lots of monsters in a very short time frame, power s/p will faster with the same advantages.

There no way on earth Ricochet can compare to DB when inflicting bleeds. There no way on earth a Shortbow can lay down bleeds as effectively as death blossom.

no doubt. however, ricochet and constant sneak attacking comes pretty close.

Added to that you , much like the original poster , are unable to understand that using a d/d set does not preclude P/d in a set.

DB is NOT useless. It is the single best source of bleed damage in the game for a condition specced thief. That the bleed from P/d has no INI cost is its real advantage (along with range) but this akin to claiming CnD and backstab “useless” because autoattacks on the d/d set are free.

i don’t think anyone is arguing that p/d autoattack is better than db…. when bleed stacking, please also take into consideration that p/d has sneak attack > < and thats mainly what people would use to stack the bleeds

As I stated in my original posts on this issue all is needed is a boost to the evade frame.

or add a short daze! and move the evade frames to the beginning of the skill!! and maybe lower the ini costs a little…. (drools)

edit still think condi is inherently under powered in pve… and condi d/d is only viable in certain limited situations even in pve… i’m not sure why you think thats fine Oo

>>no doubt. however, ricochet and constant sneak attacking comes pretty close.

You should really try it for yourself. You will NOT come close. Sneak attack causes reveal . It adds 5 stacks at 4 seconds each. Now think about that. Without condition duration by time you launch your second sneak attack all of those from the first are near gone. Even at that with 100 percent condition duration which comes with a whole lot of sacrifice , the base duration of DB is higher then the bleed from P/d.

By the time a person gets off three sneak attacks using P/d , I could have had 5 on my DB and have regenned all my ini. .

Trust me, I tried this over and over again counting stacks. I generally get more then twice the stacks from DB PLUS they are AOE attacks.

>>i think he was comparing condi d/d with power s/p. i think ninja’s argument is that; if you want to take out lots of monsters in a very short time frame, power s/p will faster with the same advantages.

And I am saying you can take out lots of creatures fast using conditions and db. It the best way of doing it in a condition build. Everyone knows the limits of conditions in PVE. That is not the point. I would the game tragically boring if everyone was using the same “optimal build”. The issue with conditions in PvE has nothing to do with death blossom. One might as well call every condition type skill “useless” if that to be used as criteria.

>>i don’t think anyone is arguing that p/d autoattack is better than db…. when bleed stacking, please also take into consideration that p/d has sneak attack > < and thats mainly what people would use to stack the bleeds

And I know that. I use both sets. I find db is much superior at it. P/d is more a defensive set. They want the range and stealth as defense. I rely more an dodges, utilities and stealth for defense awhile taking the enemy down quicker. When I need to go into a more defensive posture I will switch out to P/d. The immob on p/d can also be useful as is the shadowstrike. I am certainly NOT going to use DB in the middle of a zerg or AOes.. unless it in and right back out.

I have used kittenainst groups of 4 and 5 people. In a little over four seconds I can and have gotten off 3 DBS against said groups. That means that at the cost of the 12 ini I am pumping out 5000+ damage per tick form those bleeds. if they cleanse after 4 seconds thats 20000+ total damge. P/d can not come near that in a condi build.

If you’re using DB “effectively” in a pvp situation then you are at an incredibly low skill floor of a server or meet some stray kittens in hot join. It’s pathetic when spammed, used time to time d/d is a fairly vulnerable weapon set with no built in defense aside from stealth cuz the evade frame of DB isn’t reliable.

DB is only decent against people who can’t do pvp well or in pve. Are you really going to argue its place in the game from the most irrelevant situations possible?

I’ve “t-word”ed in pvp with a DB type build where I would just hop around with caltrops get some aa in and bleed (this took place in hotjoin). The majority of people were dying, but I also looked at their attempts to hit me and it was down right pathetikittenil this guardian showed up. He didn’t need to cleanse my conditions, he knew how to shut me down and after a little harassment it was over for me. I then proceeded to tell the map chat “you should really learn from this guardian”. Few matches in a necro was countering me, then a Mesmer, and the list kept growing. These weren’t any specific builds, they just knew how pathetic DB is and to just side step and the bleeds would miss and to cleanse the bleed stacks when they got high, and not when they were just there.

I’m telling you, DB is a bad weapon skill outside of pve. Number’s wise, it has probably the best bleed stacking I can think of. In practice however its not fluid and very easy to counter. Even if you use it as a side-arm to p/d there is far more utility with SB than d/d, and it can still act as a hybrid set if you wish. Spam it, use it with “skill” doesn’t matter. Only thing we seem to agree on is the time frame should be bumped, then maybe I’d take a fifteenth look at it.

NinjaEd.3946:

If you’re using DB “effectively” in a pvp situation then you are at an incredibly low skill floor of a server or meet some stray kittens in hot join. It’s pathetic when spammed, used time to time d/d is a fairly vulnerable weapon set with no built in defense aside from stealth cuz the evade frame of DB isn’t reliable.

DB is only decent against people who can’t do pvp well or in pve. Are you really going to argue its place in the game from the most irrelevant situations possible?

I’ve “t-word”ed in pvp with a DB type build where I would just hop around with caltrops get some aa in and bleed (this took place in hotjoin). The majority of people were dying, but I also looked at their attempts to hit me and it was down right pathetikittenil this guardian showed up. He didn’t need to cleanse my conditions, he knew how to shut me down and after a little harassment it was over for me. I then proceeded to tell the map chat “you should really learn from this guardian”. Few matches in a necro was countering me, then a Mesmer, and the list kept growing. These weren’t any specific builds, they just knew how pathetic DB is and to just side step and the bleeds would miss and to cleanse the bleed stacks when they got high, and not when they were just there.

I’m telling you, DB is a bad weapon skill outside of pve. Number’s wise, it has probably the best bleed stacking I can think of. In practice however its not fluid and very easy to counter. Even if you use it as a side-arm to p/d there is far more utility with SB than d/d, and it can still act as a hybrid set if you wish. Spam it, use it with “skill” doesn’t matter. Only thing we seem to agree on is the time frame should be bumped, then maybe I’d take a fifteenth look at it.

Well, honestly, most of us are not talking specifically about PvP. The assertion was that it was a useless skill. The counterpoint is that it isn’t, because there are many situations in which it is an effective skill and it provides some versatility that D/D would otherwise be sorely lacking.

>>If you’re using DB “effectively” in a pvp situation then you are at an incredibly low skill floor of a server or meet some stray kittens in hot join. It’s pathetic when spammed, used time to time d/d is a fairly vulnerable weapon set with no built in defense aside from stealth cuz the evade frame of DB isn’t reliable.

I do not PvP. I play PvE and WvW.

If you are unable to use it effectively do not claim no one else can. Claiming everyone I kill with it must be a noob is a lame argument.

I have plenty of defenses available in the way of dodges and utilities. I have just as many as any other d/d user . I have just as many as any p/d user.

If I want to shadowstrike away all I need do is SWAP my weapons and use that skill.

DB becomes “easy to counter” only if all you are doing is a 1V1. In a battle of several people on each side my target(s) is not always watching me to see what I will do.

They are fighting others. They are focused elsewhere. They are not even aware of the DBS coming in until they are already in. They may have already used their dodges and escapes. If a warrior throw his blocks up or is Berserker stance I wait until they are down then go in. If a ranger dodges twice to get away from an attack he is vulnerable to my own. If people are manning siege at a gate, that an opportune time to DB in and drop caltrops. Those bleeds will drop then if they keep manning those rams.

There are any manner of skills and utilities that can be countered or blocked yet they are still used. Is eviscerate useless? It has a much easier read tell then DB. . Is ride the lightning useless? I can see the ele prep it and dodge. Is a Meteor shower useless>? I see that red circle go up and know something bad is coming. Those are easier to avoid then a deathblossom.

I play a necromancer as well. Signet of spite is easy to read and often does not land. . I am able to land it far more in a battle of 10 a side because It is easier to catch someone who is not paying attention to me specifically.
If I try to use that signet of spite in a 1v1 against a good player it will rarely land. That hardly means the skill “useless”.

The same with my Elementalist. She sits away from battle , picks out a group of the enemy engaged with allies and lays a meteor storm down. Some dodge away. Many do not. It is hardly “useless”. All the players caught in that stormm can not be “noobs”

None of these situations are “irrelevant”. They happen each and every day in WvW many times over.

D/b is no more useless then a meteor shower. Indeed if you want clunky look at the cast time of a Ele using that skill. You have your range to be certain , but if there people in your vicinity that cast time of 3 and three quarters seconds is far greater then the length of time one vulnerable from a deathblossom.

I can assure you that if Meteor shower had a far lesser cooldown time or not at all , wherein the same type of pool of INI was used for Eles, they would be using it a lot more.

D/b is best skill we got for inflicting damage on multiple enemies. Specced right and used properly you can lay down far more total damage then virtually any other skill we have. You are not forced to use it but please to not advance this notion that it “useless”

babazhook.6805:

You are not forced to use it but please to not advance this notion that it “useless”

Again i remember you:

Because thieves skill are worth initiative they have to be usefull for EVERYONE in EVERY build. I’m ok to have a not so usefull skill for my build in my hotbar if it’s worth a cooldown. I WANT a usefull skill for my build in my hotbar if it’s worth initiative.

They have to change DB…well it’s easy: you increase a little bit the dodge remove the bleed take the cripple from the #4 and you have a good utility skill. Then you can rework #4 so it cost 1 more initiative can’t bounce more than one time on each target but dispell one buff (only an exemple of what you can do).

Yes…with this solution no more bleed for D/D but you now have 5 skills in your hotbar and not 3

add a 0.1 second daze on the first hit & move the evade frame to the beginning of the skill! leave the bleeds as is~ everyone is happy

edit – i think that might make more sense with the animation… people usually go wahhh!! if someone does a super ninja spin flip with sharp things flying around… i bet it’s hard to concentrate and cast a spell like that! :P

Add a daze and everyone is gonna cry…

but… but…. but… breaks down and cries

shinigamith.7120:

babazhook.6805:

You are not forced to use it but please to not advance this notion that it “useless”

They have to change DB…well it’s easy: you increase a little bit the dodge remove the bleed take the cripple from the #4 and you have a good utility skill. Then you can rework #4 so it cost 1 more initiative can’t bounce more than one time on each target but dispell one buff (only an exemple of what you can do).

Yes…with this solution no more bleed for D/D but you now have 5 skills in your hotbar and not 3

I really wish they do this. This is really good. Have you proposed this in the balance forums?