Engineers... The New Thief
But I thought Mesmers were the new Thieves.
Disgruntled Charr Engineer and Thief – Jade Quarry.
Every class is the new thief, except for thieves.
Don’t forget about ranger. Smokescale + sword will allow them some extra stealth on top of long bow and traps. Even trap guard can get in on the action. And they can all reveal each other too. Funny that as the master of stealth we can’t even spot another person in stealth to reveal them, but almost every other class can.
Not even remotely true. Perma swiftness isn’t nearly as much mobility as infiltrator’s arrow. Stealth gyro is terrible; the gyro itself is visible and very fragile, and you have to move extremely slowly to stay in its range. Oh, and nobody is actually going to take it, because rampage, mortar and supply drop are all much better than pseudo-stealth that gimps your movespeed.
I know thieves are in a bad place. However, I’m sick of that inspiring so many of them to make claims which are blatantly false. Making claims that are so obviously false makes people mistrust everything else you say, even the things that are true.
Zodryn: fewer than half the professions in the game have any reveal, and of those only revenant is a serious problem. However, daredevil is intended to make low-stealth thief viable…which makes this entire line of discussion (forced reveal) less urgent.
While thief is not my main, I do play it far more often than I play most professions. The main problems that I’ve encountered recently are twofold: thieves need better condition removal. They needed better condition removal months ago, but with burning as it is now the need is quite desperate. Second, they need better active damage mitigation. In a team fight in which the opposing team has multiple players with strong AoE presence, the thief can be prevented from contributing at all merely by the random mashing of buttons.
The only profession at all in a position to replace a thief in PvP is the mesmer. Rangers are desperately trying to (because they haven’t had a slot in high level PvP at all, ever) but aren’t even in the same league as thieves when it comes to mobility and stealth. The same holds true for engineers.
Not even remotely true. Perma swiftness isn’t nearly as much mobility as infiltrator’s arrow. Stealth gyro is terrible; the gyro itself is visible and very fragile, and you have to move extremely slowly to stay in its range. Oh, and nobody is actually going to take it, because rampage, mortar and supply drop are all much better than pseudo-stealth that gimps your movespeed.
I know thieves are in a bad place. However, I’m sick of that inspiring so many of them to make claims which are blatantly false. Making claims that are so obviously false makes people mistrust everything else you say, even the things that are true.
Zodryn: fewer than half the professions in the game have any reveal, and of those only revenant is a serious problem. However, daredevil is intended to make low-stealth thief viable…which makes this entire line of discussion (forced reveal) less urgent.
While thief is not my main, I do play it far more often than I play most professions. The main problems that I’ve encountered recently are twofold: thieves need better condition removal. They needed better condition removal months ago, but with burning as it is now the need is quite desperate. Second, they need better active damage mitigation. In a team fight in which the opposing team has multiple players with strong AoE presence, the thief can be prevented from contributing at all merely by the random mashing of buttons.
The only profession at all in a position to replace a thief in PvP is the mesmer. Rangers are desperately trying to (because they haven’t had a slot in high level PvP at all, ever) but aren’t even in the same league as thieves when it comes to mobility and stealth. The same holds true for engineers.
The point isn’t whether engi has better stealth than thief, but the fact that as the “masters of stealth” we are having our goodies given away to other classes. We don’t even have a stealth elite, but engineers and mesmers do. Even if the other classes never use stealth in any meta builds, it still makes us feel like our role is being given to others when we are already hurting as a class (especially true of mesmer).
Also, engi has liberal amounts of dangerous reveal, not just rev. Ranger also has taunt, which is functionally a reveal. Yes some classes don’t have it, but the odds of not running into those classes that do when roaming or playing sPvP is low. Even now I’ve run into problems in WvW where I am trying to stealth to either assassinate an outlier or escape a small group and some engi decides to swap traits so he can completely screw me over with 8s reveal. I shouldn’t be forced to buy kitten expansion so that I have an alternative (which I could have had previously before the acro gutting).
The stealth we have needs lower cooldowns or longer duration when traited, and we need some way to deal with reveal. Otherwise, thieves really don’t qualify as the masters of stealth anymore.
Not even remotely true. Perma swiftness isn’t nearly as much mobility as infiltrator’s arrow. Stealth gyro is terrible; the gyro itself is visible and very fragile, and you have to move extremely slowly to stay in its range. Oh, and nobody is actually going to take it, because rampage, mortar and supply drop are all much better than pseudo-stealth that gimps your movespeed.
I know thieves are in a bad place. However, I’m sick of that inspiring so many of them to make claims which are blatantly false. Making claims that are so obviously false makes people mistrust everything else you say, even the things that are true.
Zodryn: fewer than half the professions in the game have any reveal, and of those only revenant is a serious problem. However, daredevil is intended to make low-stealth thief viable…which makes this entire line of discussion (forced reveal) less urgent.
While thief is not my main, I do play it far more often than I play most professions. The main problems that I’ve encountered recently are twofold: thieves need better condition removal. They needed better condition removal months ago, but with burning as it is now the need is quite desperate. Second, they need better active damage mitigation. In a team fight in which the opposing team has multiple players with strong AoE presence, the thief can be prevented from contributing at all merely by the random mashing of buttons.
The only profession at all in a position to replace a thief in PvP is the mesmer. Rangers are desperately trying to (because they haven’t had a slot in high level PvP at all, ever) but aren’t even in the same league as thieves when it comes to mobility and stealth. The same holds true for engineers.
The point isn’t whether engi has better stealth than thief, but the fact that as the “masters of stealth” we are having our goodies given away to other classes. We don’t even have a stealth elite, but engineers and mesmers do. Even if the other classes never use stealth in any meta builds, it still makes us feel like our role is being given to others when we are already hurting as a class (especially true of mesmer).
Also, engi has liberal amounts of dangerous reveal, not just rev. Ranger also has taunt, which is functionally a reveal. Yes some classes don’t have it, but the odds of not running into those classes that do when roaming or playing sPvP is low. Even now I’ve run into problems in WvW where I am trying to stealth to either assassinate an outlier or escape a small group and some engi decides to swap traits so he can completely screw me over with 8s reveal. I shouldn’t be forced to buy kitten expansion so that I have an alternative (which I could have had previously before the acro gutting).
The stealth we have needs lower cooldowns or longer duration when traited, and we need some way to deal with reveal. Otherwise, thieves really don’t qualify as the masters of stealth anymore.
I see where you’re coming from, but you’re exaggerating things considerably to try to make a point. Ranger taunt isn’t close to being a real problem, because pets can’t be told to go to a specific place. It has a tiny range, so to be hit by it you would have to be right next to the pet. Not only that, the ranger would have to get extremely lucky: ranger f2 takes 5 seconds to activate many times, and sometimes it never actually gets activated. I have hit f2 (actually, the button that I’ve assigned for it; my laptop’s f-buttons are weird so I don’t use them) repeatedly, rapidly, for several seconds, only to have my pet fail to use it at all, much less in a reasonable time frame. Pets suck. Oh, and if you jump over some broken terrain (such as the rubble near the henge point in Niflheim) the pet will get stuck most of the time, forcing a swap (and resulting 20 second cooldown).
The engineer has a utility skill that reveals…but nobody uses that. Ever. They have a trait that does it, but it competes with streamlined kits, so few players use it (also, apparently it’s bugged). And they’re going to get a terrible elite skill with a reveal toolbelt component. And nobody is going to use that, either, because we already have 3 elite skills that are strong in both toolbar and toolbelt components, and have greater flexibility in terms of what they’re useful against. I agree that forced reveal durations should be reduced, but until revenant comes it will never be a serious problem in sPvP. WvW, where you can switch your skills and build (and food) based on an opponent in the distance whom you’re planning to attack, is always going to have these sorts of problems…and not just for stealthy professions.
I see where you’re coming from, but you’re exaggerating things considerably to try to make a point. Ranger taunt isn’t close to being a real problem, because pets can’t be told to go to a specific place. It has a tiny range, so to be hit by it you would have to be right next to the pet. Not only that, the ranger would have to get extremely lucky: ranger f2 takes 5 seconds to activate many times, and sometimes it never actually gets activated. I have hit f2 (actually, the button that I’ve assigned for it; my laptop’s f-buttons are weird so I don’t use them) repeatedly, rapidly, for several seconds, only to have my pet fail to use it at all, much less in a reasonable time frame. Pets suck. Oh, and if you jump over some broken terrain (such as the rubble near the henge point in Niflheim) the pet will get stuck most of the time, forcing a swap (and resulting 20 second cooldown).
The engineer has a utility skill that reveals…but nobody uses that. Ever. They have a trait that does it, but it competes with streamlined kits, so few players use it (also, apparently it’s bugged). And they’re going to get a terrible elite skill with a reveal toolbelt component. And nobody is going to use that, either, because we already have 3 elite skills that are strong in both toolbar and toolbelt components, and have greater flexibility in terms of what they’re useful against. I agree that forced reveal durations should be reduced, but until revenant comes it will never be a serious problem in sPvP. WvW, where you can switch your skills and build (and food) based on an opponent in the distance whom you’re planning to attack, is always going to have these sorts of problems…and not just for stealthy professions.
I’m not exaggerating. If taunt hits it’s also basically a reveal. It happens, sometimes even without the ranger intending it (i.e. they’re fighting someone else and you get caught be it by chance). It may not be common, and it’s definitely not as much of a problem as engi or rev, but my statement wasn’t an exaggeration.
As for “WvW…is always going to have these sorts of problems…and not just for stealthy professions” I disagree. As a thief, I can’t swap one trait to completely shut down a necro for example. Sure, maybe I can change my build to be more viable vs certain things, but that’s different.
wtf how does that mean they’re a better thief? with your horrible logic you could say the same thing for every other class in this game save for ranger.
the only class that comes close to being a better thief is mesmer.
D/D Elementalist takes no skill but is good at everything in the game.
Mesmer is unfun to play against and does everything better than thieves.
Hoping those two get gutted with nerfs
Mesmer is unfun to play against and does everything better than thieves.
Hoping those two get gutted with nerfs
the only class that comes close to being a better thief is mesmer.
And Revenant. It is not exaggerating to say that Shiro Revenant (and the Devastation line) are all that Thief SHOULD be.
At this point hysteria is the new Thief.
“You keep saying ‘its unfair.’
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.
Well what have Rangers to say that thieves are their new pets now? Balance is Balance
Thief might not be as strong as last year
but they’re a lot stronger
than they will be next year!
but they’re a lot stronger
than they will be next year!
I see where you’re coming from, but you’re exaggerating things considerably to try to make a point. Ranger taunt isn’t close to being a real problem, because pets can’t be told to go to a specific place. It has a tiny range, so to be hit by it you would have to be right next to the pet. Not only that, the ranger would have to get extremely lucky: ranger f2 takes 5 seconds to activate many times, and sometimes it never actually gets activated. I have hit f2 (actually, the button that I’ve assigned for it; my laptop’s f-buttons are weird so I don’t use them) repeatedly, rapidly, for several seconds, only to have my pet fail to use it at all, much less in a reasonable time frame. Pets suck. Oh, and if you jump over some broken terrain (such as the rubble near the henge point in Niflheim) the pet will get stuck most of the time, forcing a swap (and resulting 20 second cooldown).
The engineer has a utility skill that reveals…but nobody uses that. Ever. They have a trait that does it, but it competes with streamlined kits, so few players use it (also, apparently it’s bugged). And they’re going to get a terrible elite skill with a reveal toolbelt component. And nobody is going to use that, either, because we already have 3 elite skills that are strong in both toolbar and toolbelt components, and have greater flexibility in terms of what they’re useful against. I agree that forced reveal durations should be reduced, but until revenant comes it will never be a serious problem in sPvP. WvW, where you can switch your skills and build (and food) based on an opponent in the distance whom you’re planning to attack, is always going to have these sorts of problems…and not just for stealthy professions.
I’m not exaggerating. If taunt hits it’s also basically a reveal. It happens, sometimes even without the ranger intending it (i.e. they’re fighting someone else and you get caught be it by chance). It may not be common, and it’s definitely not as much of a problem as engi or rev, but my statement wasn’t an exaggeration.
As for “WvW…is always going to have these sorts of problems…and not just for stealthy professions” I disagree. As a thief, I can’t swap one trait to completely shut down a necro for example. Sure, maybe I can change my build to be more viable vs certain things, but that’s different.
If the taunt hits you while you’re in stealth, you screwed up. Bad. You made a major mistake, and so you get punished for it, as with any major mistake. You would have had to stay within melee range of the pet when it (obviously) isn’t even following you.
But I thought Mesmers were the new Thieves.
No Mesmers were the new Thieves. Now they’re the current Thieves.
the only class that comes close to being a better thief is mesmer.
And Revenant. It is not exaggerating to say that Shiro Revenant (and the Devastation line) are all that Thief SHOULD be.
Jokes aside, my guild has said dozens of times that Revenant is a better Thief than Thief is with Shiro…
When that initial HoT teaser was released, I saw Rytlock performing Relentless Assault and thought “Sweet! That must be a new thief ability!”. If only I had known…
’Ranger taunt isn’t close to being a real problem, because pets can’t be told to go to a specific place. ’
try ‘Guard’ utility
’Ranger taunt isn’t close to being a real problem, because pets can’t be told to go to a specific place. ’
try ‘Guard’ utility
Yeah, I’m going to take an otherwise inefficient and inferior utility just on the off chance that I might have be able to use it to direct my pet to where I believe a stealthed thief to be…not that they’ll stay there if the pet is moving toward them. Oh, and this entire discussion is academic for birds, because they can’t use their f2 without a target selected, and thus cannot possibly taunt a thief in stealth (unless that thief is standing next to an unstealthed ally with an adjacent pet).
No Mesmers were the new Thieves. Now they’re the current Thieves.
So if Engineers are the new Thieves, and Mesmers are the current Thieves, that means that Engineers are the new Mesmers?
If the taunt hits you while you’re in stealth, you screwed up. Bad. You made a major mistake, and so you get punished for it, as with any major mistake. You would have had to stay within melee range of the pet when it (obviously) isn’t even following you.
Ok, so let’s consider some scenarios.
1) You’re low on hp while fighting a ranger and drop SR to try and reset. Naturally, his pet was right next to you before you stealthed, because it was attacking you. The ranger uses f2, and the taunt has 240 radius and can’t be dodged.
2) P/D, to ensure you land CnD, you use it on the rangers pet since you anticipate the ranger would evade/block it. This usually works well, but this time the ranger presses f2, and again, you are right next to the pet.
3) You jump in to +1 against a ranger to help your warrior friend. You approached in stealth and you are about to backstab the ranger, but the pet just used his f2 and since the pet was right next to the ranger (attacking the warrior in melee range), you get taunted.
It happens. Again, I agree it’s not that big of a deal compared to an engi who can reveal for 8s by flailing with a flamethrower, but it still doesn’t change the fact that taunt can work as a reveal. I never said it was op or that it even happens often, but it can happen and it’s something I have to watch for as many rangers run that trait.
If you get taunted in stealth, spam your stow weapon button.
If the taunt hits you while you’re in stealth, you screwed up. Bad. You made a major mistake, and so you get punished for it, as with any major mistake. You would have had to stay within melee range of the pet when it (obviously) isn’t even following you.
Ok, so let’s consider some scenarios.
1) You’re low on hp while fighting a ranger and drop SR to try and reset. Naturally, his pet was right next to you before you stealthed, because it was attacking you. The ranger uses f2, and the taunt has 240 radius and can’t be dodged.
2) P/D, to ensure you land CnD, you use it on the rangers pet since you anticipate the ranger would evade/block it. This usually works well, but this time the ranger presses f2, and again, you are right next to the pet.
3) You jump in to +1 against a ranger to help your warrior friend. You approached in stealth and you are about to backstab the ranger, but the pet just used his f2 and since the pet was right next to the ranger (attacking the warrior in melee range), you get taunted.
It happens. Again, I agree it’s not that big of a deal compared to an engi who can reveal for 8s by flailing with a flamethrower, but it still doesn’t change the fact that taunt can work as a reveal. I never said it was op or that it even happens often, but it can happen and it’s something I have to watch for as many rangers run that trait.
1) If he uses f2 in reaction to you stealthing, there is going to be at least a 2 second window during which you can simply walk out of range. If the pet in question is a bird, f2 cannot be used at all, because he can’t see you to target you.
2) Again, only if you stay next to the pet for at least 2 seconds and only if the pet is not a bird. Try playing ranger and see how long the delay is between hitting f2 and your pet actually using it. It’s an enormous delay.
3) This is the only scenario you listed that is at all realistic. However, given the times involved, you’re still more likely to be hit by the taunt after backstab lands unless the ranger is blocking (and if the ranger is blocking, you’d probably be hammered out of taunt range by counterattack anyway).
Currently I feel that, people are getting more tools to apply stealth and they get more tools to remove stealth, while thieves get an extra dodge like wtf? An extra dodge does not help you at all, this is because suppose you and your opponent both use your dodges the moment they are available, then you will only get to use an extra dodge compared to them because after the endurance bar is empty you have to wait for the endurance to recharge having an extra endurance bar doesnt help. In a game where dodging is very important you are very likely to be using that dodge the moment they are available. Furthermore other classes are simply getting way too many dmg reduction, as a thief I fought this ZERK… yeah ZERK necro using all wells and marks and he did way more dmg (1 mark did 3k….) I could do to him and he was aoe too! He had aoe blinds, aoe stability etc and he gained ds super fast, he also applies alot of weakness. With all this dmg reduction around I do so little dmg. Thieves don’t feel like thieves anymore it’s like they wield wet noodles while other classes do more dmg and have very good sustain (they don’t need stealth for sustain so they can capture points and stuff).
To summarize: thieves are losing stealth to reveals, theives are doing less dmg, theives have less sustain, and thieves cant capture points because no sustain, thieves still have pretty good mobility but thats about it
1) If he uses f2 in reaction to you stealthing, there is going to be at least a 2 second window during which you can simply walk out of range. If the pet in question is a bird, f2 cannot be used at all, because he can’t see you to target you.
2) Again, only if you stay next to the pet for at least 2 seconds and only if the pet is not a bird. Try playing ranger and see how long the delay is between hitting f2 and your pet actually using it. It’s an enormous delay.
3) This is the only scenario you listed that is at all realistic. However, given the times involved, you’re still more likely to be hit by the taunt after backstab lands unless the ranger is blocking (and if the ranger is blocking, you’d probably be hammered out of taunt range by counterattack anyway).
1) You have to sit in SR for 4 seconds, and the taunt radius takes up exactly the entire field if it’s in the middle. this means either get taunted and revealed, or walk out of SR and get revealed. I actually feel like this is the most realistic scenario as 3 is a totally random chance that you get taunted without it being intentional.
2) Fair enough. Though the ranger could cast it as you cast CnD and the taunt would hit almost immediately and would work with birds.
3) Also fair. Still happens on occasion though.
(edited by Zodryn.4216)
1) If he uses f2 in reaction to you stealthing, there is going to be at least a 2 second window during which you can simply walk out of range. If the pet in question is a bird, f2 cannot be used at all, because he can’t see you to target you.
2) Again, only if you stay next to the pet for at least 2 seconds and only if the pet is not a bird. Try playing ranger and see how long the delay is between hitting f2 and your pet actually using it. It’s an enormous delay.
3) This is the only scenario you listed that is at all realistic. However, given the times involved, you’re still more likely to be hit by the taunt after backstab lands unless the ranger is blocking (and if the ranger is blocking, you’d probably be hammered out of taunt range by counterattack anyway).
1) You have to sit in SR for 4 seconds, and the taunt radius takes up exactly the entire field if it’s in the middle. this means either get taunted and revealed, or walk out of SR and get revealed. I actually feel like this is the most realistic scenario as 3 is a totally random chance that you get taunted without it being intentional.
2) Fair enough. Though the ranger could cast it as you cast CnD and the taunt would hit almost immediately and would work with birds.
3) Also fair. Still happens on occasion though.
1) The most common pet these days is a bird. Birds cannot use f2 when there is no target available. Plus, just try getting a pet to stand exactly where you want it to, especially if there isn’t a target there to send it after.
2) If you’re next to the pet only long enough to CnD, it’s extremely unlikely. The delay on f2 skills is crippling. They would have had to hit f2 a couple seconds before you CnD, and even then it’s a matter of luck. Most likely it would cancel if you stealthed when a bird has f2 queued, but a canine could pull it off.
3) Yes.
Honestly, the only real problem I see with the reveals is their duration. In my opinion, 8 seconds is too long.
1) If he uses f2 in reaction to you stealthing, there is going to be at least a 2 second window during which you can simply walk out of range. If the pet in question is a bird, f2 cannot be used at all, because he can’t see you to target you.
2) Again, only if you stay next to the pet for at least 2 seconds and only if the pet is not a bird. Try playing ranger and see how long the delay is between hitting f2 and your pet actually using it. It’s an enormous delay.
3) This is the only scenario you listed that is at all realistic. However, given the times involved, you’re still more likely to be hit by the taunt after backstab lands unless the ranger is blocking (and if the ranger is blocking, you’d probably be hammered out of taunt range by counterattack anyway).
1) You have to sit in SR for 4 seconds, and the taunt radius takes up exactly the entire field if it’s in the middle. this means either get taunted and revealed, or walk out of SR and get revealed. I actually feel like this is the most realistic scenario as 3 is a totally random chance that you get taunted without it being intentional.
2) Fair enough. Though the ranger could cast it as you cast CnD and the taunt would hit almost immediately and would work with birds.
3) Also fair. Still happens on occasion though.
1) The most common pet these days is a bird. Birds cannot use f2 when there is no target available. Plus, just try getting a pet to stand exactly where you want it to, especially if there isn’t a target there to send it after.
2) If you’re next to the pet only long enough to CnD, it’s extremely unlikely. The delay on f2 skills is crippling. They would have had to hit f2 a couple seconds before you CnD, and even then it’s a matter of luck. Most likely it would cancel if you stealthed when a bird has f2 queued, but a canine could pull it off.
3) Yes.
Honestly, the only real problem I see with the reveals is their duration. In my opinion, 8 seconds is too long.
Taunt happens as soon as you hit F2, there is no delay in the taunt.
1) If he uses f2 in reaction to you stealthing, there is going to be at least a 2 second window during which you can simply walk out of range. If the pet in question is a bird, f2 cannot be used at all, because he can’t see you to target you.
2) Again, only if you stay next to the pet for at least 2 seconds and only if the pet is not a bird. Try playing ranger and see how long the delay is between hitting f2 and your pet actually using it. It’s an enormous delay.
3) This is the only scenario you listed that is at all realistic. However, given the times involved, you’re still more likely to be hit by the taunt after backstab lands unless the ranger is blocking (and if the ranger is blocking, you’d probably be hammered out of taunt range by counterattack anyway).
1) You have to sit in SR for 4 seconds, and the taunt radius takes up exactly the entire field if it’s in the middle. this means either get taunted and revealed, or walk out of SR and get revealed. I actually feel like this is the most realistic scenario as 3 is a totally random chance that you get taunted without it being intentional.
2) Fair enough. Though the ranger could cast it as you cast CnD and the taunt would hit almost immediately and would work with birds.
3) Also fair. Still happens on occasion though.
1) The most common pet these days is a bird. Birds cannot use f2 when there is no target available. Plus, just try getting a pet to stand exactly where you want it to, especially if there isn’t a target there to send it after.
2) If you’re next to the pet only long enough to CnD, it’s extremely unlikely. The delay on f2 skills is crippling. They would have had to hit f2 a couple seconds before you CnD, and even then it’s a matter of luck. Most likely it would cancel if you stealthed when a bird has f2 queued, but a canine could pull it off.
3) Yes.
Honestly, the only real problem I see with the reveals is their duration. In my opinion, 8 seconds is too long.
Taunt happens as soon as you hit F2, there is no delay in the taunt.
Yes there is. It’s bugged. About half the time you press f2, nothing happens. Sometimes the taunt activates but the skill doesn’t. It’s really annoying.
It’s bugged. About half the time you press f2, nothing happens. Sometimes the taunt activates but the skill doesn’t. It’s really annoying.
Is this still the case post patch?
It’s bugged. About half the time you press f2, nothing happens. Sometimes the taunt activates but the skill doesn’t. It’s really annoying.
Is this still the case post patch?
It was the case last night after the patch, yes.
Currently, Engineers counter thieves very hard. Their stealth gyro allows them to stealth way more often and they can give you reveal making shadow refuge useless. I fought this zerk engineer today and he healed way faster than I could do dmg and his hammer dealt so much dmg that I could do nothing but run. He also has a bunch of reflects and blocks so your projectiles are just useless unless you want to kill yourself with all those reflects