Guild Wars 2

Archituethis.2560:

The best part is that any thief with 20 points in acrobatics getting the 2 init per 10 will be receiving A WHOPPING MASSIVE .5 extra initiative per 10 seconds, not even a full initiative. Yet with the nerf to opportunist we will be losing so much more initiative. The only spec that may feel any beneficial change would be a condi thief, and for them it might just be .5 more init per 10 seconds.

0.5 more init per 10 seconds ? Someones skipping math classes. 0.75ini per 1s = 7.5 ini per 10s, so 1 ini per 1s = 10 ini per 10 s, so thats 2.5 ini more per 10 s.

“all thief specs got massive buffs”. Yea, I guess a level 1 thief is now 25% stronger with any weapon.
Sword auto hits 3 targets. Pistol whip hits 3 targets 7 times plus initial strike.
Pistol shot with auto ricochet hits up to four targets. Unload with ricochet hits up to 15 targets.
Considering 100% crit rate on pistol whip/unload is not a problem at all, wan’t me to point out the loss?
Before (unload):
Base regen: 0.75/second
Average opportunist regen: (5(ricochets per unload average) plus 8 hits over)x4 = 52 crits in 7 seconds. 7.42 crits per second. 1-(1-0.3)^7.42 = 93% chance to get 1 initiative EVERY second.
Total regen: 0.75 plus 0.93*1= 1.68 initiative/second (average).
After (unload):
Base regen: 1/second
Opportunist: 0.2/second
Total regen: 1.2/second.
Summary: 30% nerf to P/P, the weakest thief spec.

Straegen.2938:

Pavel.8531:

Straegen, your math might be true about dagger builds. Now do the math about S/P PW thieves and P/P Unload thieves. Woops, what happened?

What happened… sword has roughly the same attack speeds as Dagger so Opportunist comes out about even. Pistol has slower attacks so it probably comes out a hair better with the changes. What is lost from Opportunist is gained in the init regen.

All the QQ on Opportunist at least so far looks to be unfounded.

pistol whip? unload? do those skills have same attack speed as dagger?

hint: you can get 1 init per second with pistol whip currently.

Excalibur.9748:

pistol whip? unload? do those skills have same attack speed as dagger?

hint: you can get 1 init per second with pistol whip currently.

Not from just Opportunist. PW has a .75s activation time and the current Opportunist can return 1 init per crit 30% of the time on a 1s cool down. This means with the current system even at 100 percent crit rate a thief would see 1 init about every 3 seconds from a PW/Opportunist combo. The new regen rate delivers almost that much without even traiting Opportunist or needing to land crits.

Attacks that have no activation costs can push 1 init per second from Opportunist but those live mostly in the dagger main hand and required a 100 percent crit chance over a chain of attacks. Even then the regen rate is only slightly lessened.

Generally speaking the slower the attack the better the changes are for that player.

Straegen.2938:

Excalibur.9748:

pistol whip? unload? do those skills have same attack speed as dagger?

hint: you can get 1 init per second with pistol whip currently.

Not from just Opportunist. PW has a .75s activation time and the current Opportunist can return 1 init per crit 30% of the time on a 1s cool down. This means with the current system even at 100 percent crit rate a thief would see 1 init about every 3 seconds from a PW/Opportunist combo. The new regen rate delivers almost that much without even traiting Opportunist or needing to land crits.

Attacks that have no activation costs can push 1 init per second from Opportunist but those live mostly in the dagger main hand and required a 100 percent crit chance over a chain of attacks. Even then the regen rate is only slightly lessened.

1 init per second from just opportunist with pistol whip. it doesn’t matter if it’s 30% of the time if you hit 9 times in a row on 3 different mobs at the same time.

Excalibur.9748:

1 init per second from just opportunist with pistol whip. it doesn’t matter if it’s 30% of the time if you hit 9 times in a row on 3 different mobs at the same time.

PW has an activation cost of 0.75s. The only way to get 1 init regen per second from Opportunist is to have an attack that can be executed 3.3 times per second. PW isn’t even close. To my knowledge only the main hand dagger can theoretically attack that fast (not in reality as there is roughly a 0.2s lag between all attacks on the best connections). For example:

10 PW take 7.5s. The absolute most you can get is 7 Init regen if everything crits AND you roll lucky getting Opportunist every time which is REALLY unlikely. Factor in the 30% and it comes in around 3 init over that attack chain.

New system: Player gets back 2 additional init from the new regen and almost 2 from Opportunist. This comes to around 3-4 init in the same time frame.

Straegen.2938:

Excalibur.9748:

1 init per second from just opportunist with pistol whip. it doesn’t matter if it’s 30% of the time if you hit 9 times in a row on 3 different mobs at the same time.

PW has an activation cost of 0.75s. The only way to get 1 init regen per second from Opportunist is to have an attack that can be executed 3.3 times per second. PW isn’t even close. To my knowledge only the main hand dagger can attack that fast. For example:

10 PW take 7.5s. The absolute most you can get is 7 Init regen if everything crits AND you roll lucky getting Opportunist every time which is REALLY unlikely. Factor in the 30% and it comes in around 3 init over that attack chain.

New system: Player gets back 2 additional init from the new regen and almost 2 from Opportunist. This comes to around 3-4 init in the same time frame.

Pistol whip hits WAYYYYY more than 3.3 times per second. It hits 9 times every 0.75s. It can trigger 27 crits within the span of 0.75s on 3 mobs.

Excalibur.9748:

Pistol whip hits WAYYYYY more than 3.3 times per second.

It cannot be activated quickly so the best PW can do is 4 activation per full bar of init. Of which a player will get back 3-4 init. In that same chain a player will likely see 3 init from the new system.

Straegen.2938:

Excalibur.9748:

Pistol whip hits WAYYYYY more than 3.3 times per second.

It cannot be activated quickly so the best PW can do is 4 activation per full bar of init. Of which a player will get back 3-4 init. In that same chain a player will likely see 3 init from the new system.

Activation time doesn’t matter because you can hit over 27 times per second so you can definately get 1 init back per second. If there was no ICD you can get 9 init back per second from opportunist alone. You would get 45 init back in the same time it would take to get 1 init back from the new system.

Excalibur.9748:

Activation time doesn’t matter because you can hit over 27 times per second so you can definately get 1 init back per second. If there was no ICD you can get 9 init back per second from opportunist alone. You would get 45 init back in the same time it would take to get 1 init back from the new system.

Despite PW having multiple attacks (which I missed the first time around), it still cannot be chained more than 3-4 times in a row. That means at best 3-4 init regen versus 1.X from the new regen rate and 1.X from the new Opportunity for around 3. So it is a net loss on this skill but likely fairly equal when coupled into a more realistic attack chain.

The test to see how this specific skill is effected will be how many of these can a player do in 60s in game now versus how many they can do in 60s after the change. My guess is the numbers will be pretty close.

Straegen.2938:

Excalibur.9748:

Activation time doesn’t matter because you can hit over 27 times per second so you can definately get 1 init back per second. If there was no ICD you can get 9 init back per second from opportunist alone. You would get 45 init back in the same time it would take to get 1 init back from the new system.

Despite PW having multiple attacks (which I missed the first time around), it still cannot be chained more than 3-4 times in a row. That means at best 3-4 init regen versus 1.X from the new regen rate and 1.X from the new Opportunity for around 3. So it is a net loss on this skill but likely fairly equal when coupled into a more realistic attack chain.

The test to see how this specific skill is effected will be how many of these can a player do in 60s in game now versus how many they can do in 60s after the change. My guess is the numbers will be pretty close.

I don’t think you have any idea how spammable PW is currently, even with low crit chance. I fully expect to be nerfed big time with the opportunist MASSSSSIVE nerf.
Here’s an example of PW gameplay with only ~50% crit chance coupled with opportunist and quick recovery: http://www.twitch.tv/sakraycore/c/3167174

Also I’m curious how one can be a thief yet not know PW is a multi hit skill Hmmmmm.

PS even a slight reduction to the spammability of PW can be the difference between life or death considering PW is not used just for damage. It also has evades and stuns.

The new system will generate a max of 72 init per minute with the regen rate and Opportunity. The old system had a max of 105. Now 33 init per minute is a lot but as far as I know few builds could achieve one guaranteed crit per second. Doesn’t matter if an attack spawns more attacks if they all happen in a second… only one will count for Opportunity. It is far more likely most effective builds are seeing around 70-80 init regen from the current Opportunity and Init Regen. The fewer the attacks in a given time window, the better the new system works.

Ultimately we cannot have our cake and eat it too is what it boils down to. No minor trait should increase attack speed by more than 100%. They rectified that situation which will bring a minor DPS change (IMO) to some builds while buffing a whole lot more.

Excalibur.9748:

Also I’m curious how one can be a thief yet not know PW is a multi hit skill Hmmmmm.

I only WvW with my thief and haven’t played with S/P in over a year. I have nearly 1.5k hours in WvW on a thief doing mostly solo/skirmish. If this setup was more akin to my playstyle I would have caught that.

Excalibur.9748:

PS even a slight reduction to the spammability of PW can be the difference between life or death considering PW is not used just for damage. It also has evades and stuns.

Which it will still do.

Which it will still do.

Well considering a reduction to init directly causes evade uptime reduction, stun uptime reduction, and even heal amount per second reduction (signet of malice) so it’s in fact a very big nerf even if init regen is slightly nerfed. While PW will still have evades, and stuns, it will not be able to provide that if you run out of init , so not really.

No. Calculations were given.
The balance patch is a buff to P/P WHEN P/P is NOT doing damage (aka not unloading). Get more initiative while doing nothing. Makes sense, huh.
Point is that new opportunist does not care whether you are auto attacking (try to not proc it with 50% chance in 5 seconds) or actively unloading in the middle of your best damage phase (you still get 1 initiative per 5 seconds, no matter what you do).
If you love spamming 1 a lot, run around without attacking and dodging around without need, then yes, this is a buff.
But P/P is (hopefully) about doing damage.
This change brings a genuine P/P thief, that is aware of its surroundings, knows were to stand and how to maximize his damage and time on target to the level of a just a P/P.
Promoting skillful play.

Excalibur.9748:

Which it will still do.

Well considering a reduction to init directly causes evade uptime reduction, stun uptime reduction, and even heal amount per second reduction (signet of malice) so it’s in fact a very big nerf even if init regen is slightly nerfed. While PW will still have evades, and stuns, it will not be able to provide that if you run out of init , so not really.

I think at this point both sides of our debate are academic. Neither of us can really know until we see it in action. I still believe that builds focused around this will see only a minor hit to their overall init regen. I do agree (which makes me wrong earlier) that with this specific skill it will see an obvious net loss though. I also believe most players will see a net gain some tremendously so. Ultimately Opportunity as it was designed was OP for what it cost to get. Now we get part of it without even having to trait it.

Problem is that the change to initiative does not equally balance out opportunity for (as stupid as it sounds) the WEAKEST build that rely on it the most.
Lets drop opportunity completely. Count HOW MUCH EACH AND EVERY SKILL benefited from it. And balance accordingly.
And not “Price of fuel increased by 50%. To compensate, town speed limit is increased by 10.”

after you factor in that your target will ALWAYS be moving, dodging, pushing you away, putting you into stuns, etc., … won’t the base regen increase actually be beneficial?

I am talking mostly about pve. You’d be stupid running P/P in competitive pvp.
And no, I do not think that a BASE increase to passive initiative regen is a way to go.
Risk/reward, remember? Yes, its a buff, but its a stupid snowballing power creep buff that does not solve ANY issues or ANY changes to initiative traits.

Does these change increase build diversity in any way? I never ran opportunist or any init recovery traits but I would still have to go into critical strikes for damage.

Invizible.2960:

Does these change increase build diversity in any way? I never ran opportunist or any init recovery traits but I would still have to go into critical strikes for damage.

what do you mean you never ran opportunist. it’s a minor trait, everyone who went 15 in critical strikes had it.

connieboy.9840:

after you factor in that your target will ALWAYS be moving, dodging, pushing you away, putting you into stuns, etc., … won’t the base regen increase actually be beneficial?

Yes. This is why theorycrafting Opp/Regen into a nerf is probably just forum drama. It will like change some attack chains but the overall regen is probably going to even out most losses. I am sure there will be a loser somewhere but I am not convinced it will be substantial.

Tyler Chapman.1832:

Oghier.7419:

D/D didn’t get nerfed. Increasing base initiative gain by 33% is a pretty big deal.

It’s more than a big deal. It’s a MASSSSSSSSSIVE buff to all thief specs.

Day18.
Still waiting the massive buff.

Tyler Chapman.1832:

Oghier.7419:

D/D didn’t get nerfed. Increasing base initiative gain by 33% is a pretty big deal.

It’s more than a big deal. It’s a MASSSSSSSSSIVE buff to all thief specs.

Yeah, it’s usefull have 4 of initiative instead of 3 when you are stunned,dazed, immobilized, downed, ecc.
Next time i will lost a fight cause to missing access to stability,protection,regeneration or evasion (sword) i’ll think: “oh well i had 4 initiative”