Guild Wars 2

Haven’t played P/D thief in ages, but with the introduction of Dire armor and the changes to some of the runes and sigils, I was considering giving it a whirl (if for no other reason than for kicks). I did have a few questions though before I go about making a build and gearing up. Keep in mind I’m only interested in playing P/D for WvW roaming.

1. Do the 25%/50%/75%/100% bleed duration cutoffs still apply? From what I remember from before, the aim was to hit one of those exactly (as there was no benefit in between). Also, what bleed duration do you guys normally shoot for?
2. What are some of your favorite rune sets? I was looking at Krait personally, but I’ve seen several other favorites on the boards here.
3. Do the ricocheted shots from Ricochet apply conditions to the second target hit?
4. Also I have noted a lot of people recommending going full Dire. Wouldn’t a mix of Dire/Carrion be more ideal, especially against Diamond Skin elementalists?

xihorus.2804:

Haven’t played P/D thief in ages, but with the introduction of Dire armor and the changes to some of the runes and sigils, I was considering giving it a whirl (if for no other reason than for kicks). I did have a few questions though before I go about making a build and gearing up. Keep in mind I’m only interested in playing P/D for WvW roaming.

1. Do the 25%/50%/75%/100% bleed duration cutoffs still apply? From what I remember from before, the aim was to hit one of those exactly (as there was no benefit in between). Also, what bleed duration do you guys normally shoot for?
2. What are some of your favorite rune sets? I was looking at Krait personally, but I’ve seen several other favorites on the boards here.
3. Do the ricocheted shots from Ricochet apply conditions to the second target hit?
4. Also I have noted a lot of people recommending going full Dire. Wouldn’t a mix of Dire/Carrion be more ideal, especially against Diamond Skin elementalists?

1: condi duration caps at 100. There is no cap to 25/50/75. Condi only tic for damage at every full second. If 20% gives you .5 seconds, it is useless to you. If it gives you 1 second, it can be decent.
Personal pref on runes honestly Krait are good, Undead are nice if you go dire. I use centaur in WvW because I am lazy and perma swiftness is nice when 99% of the time is running around, looking for someone to fight.

3: Yes they do, still a bleh trait.

4: DS ele? You might fight one once a week. If that. Clever use of CnD and bursting after water is on CD works, or just walk away and don’t waste your time. Dire is still the best set imo.

Thanks for the info. Any thoughts on using Giver’s weapons? I was playing around with a build calculator and it seems that I could push bleeds up to 100% without food pretty easily using them. Or is the loss in condition damage from using Giver’s too steep?

Scepter focus Eles with wreck pd thiefs.

Giver’s weapons trade off too much damage. It is highly likely that your conditions will not run their full duration. Food is far more effective for duration.

Eles usually fall into two categories. A group oriented damage build that melts quickly or a roaming build that is usually a pain to kill for one reason or another. For the roaming variety victory tends to depend on them eating several confusion hits.

I wouldn’t worry about bleed duration if I were you. Bleed is so easily removed, and so easily reapplied when you’re playing p/d. The weapon set is really about constant application of conditions, not long duration of conditions.

To that end, I think perplexity or balthazar would serve you better. Adds another damaging condition that your opponent will have to remove.

Also, stick with full dire. The benefit of carrion is negligible unless you invest in a lot of carrion. But then you give up a lot of toughness.

go full dire
if you 1v1 a lot you’ll get bored pretty fast as this set is super easy and forgiving

go balthazar rune as it give bruning which is huge dmg ppl wont expect thieves to do and perplexity only give you 3 stacks mainly and you already got 5 with trait

use 10,0,30,0,30

about duration
AA will tick 4 seconds so 100% is 8, 75% is 7 50% is 6 and 25% is 5
shadow shot and BA (trait) is 5 seconds so 100% is 10, 9 sec is 80% , 8 sec 60%, 7 sec is 40%, 6 is 20%
balthazar rune is 4 sec burning so 100% is 6 , 66% is 5

with 2 in DA line and 40% food you will have 50% condi duration so to go higher you will need 25% for bleeding which will be trade off with condi dmg and only give you 1 sec tick which is about 600 dmg while more condi dmg will benefit also torment and confusion

so i say aim for 60% (with malice sigil)
you will have burning 6 seconds , torment and confusion 8 sec, bleeding 6 sec
you will do in 6 seconds around 3k dps which is 18k dmg

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate the advice here.

I do not like to be dependent on food as part of my build (just my thing). So I do not factor in condition duration food into my stats. Given that, I was thinking of the following:

• Krait runes. Perplexity is definitely a nice choice, but more than I’m willing to spend for now. [adds 45% bleed duration]
• 2/0/6/0/6 build, using Bewildering Ambush grandmaster trait from the Trickery line, since I’m not using Perplexity runes. [2 in Deadly Arts adds 10% condition duration]
• Full Dire set, with the exception of one weapon which is Giver’s. [10% condition duration]
• Superior Sigil of Malice. [10% condition duration]

In total, this gives adds 75% bleed duration and 30% condition duration. For my other sigil I am considering using Superior Sigil of Corruption.

Thoughts?

xihorus.2804:

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate the advice here.

I do not like to be dependent on food as part of my build (just my thing). So I do not factor in condition duration food into my stats. Given that, I was thinking of the following:

• Krait runes. Perplexity is definitely a nice choice, but more than I’m willing to spend for now. [adds 45% bleed duration]
• 2/0/6/0/6 build, using Bewildering Ambush grandmaster trait from the Trickery line, since I’m not using Perplexity runes. [2 in Deadly Arts adds 10% condition duration]
• Full Dire set, with the exception of one weapon which is Giver’s. [10% condition duration]
• Superior Sigil of Malice. [10% condition duration]

In total, this gives adds 75% bleed duration and 30% condition duration. For my other sigil I am considering using Superior Sigil of Corruption.

Thoughts?

Again, condi duration isn’t the way to go with p/d. Very rarely will all your conditions stick for the full (or even half) duration. The weapon set is about constant application of conditions, since sneak attack and shadow shot have no cooldowns, and you have mug on a 21-27 second cd.

I repeat, going for high condi duration is the wrong way to go, especially when you do so at the expense of better rune/sigil choices. Perplexity + sleight of hand is better than bewildering ambush, IMO. The cd reduction and daze on steal are game changers. Alternatively, balthazar is a good set too. Krait is fine if you can’t afford the other two, but don’t go for krait runes thinking they’re a better choice than perplexity or balthazar.

Your sigils are less important than your runes. Torment, doom, bursting, and energy are all solid choices.

for 1v1 or 1vx the duration is important a bit as after the signet warrior which has 800 heal per second use is utilities u can tick 5 seconds and above . without it you wont be able to kill anyone with -40%-60% condi duration

Have been playing around with the build I mentioned, and wanted to follow up and hear some more opinions.

mango.9267:

Again, condi duration isn’t the way to go with p/d. Very rarely will all your conditions stick for the full (or even half) duration. The weapon set is about constant application of conditions, since sneak attack and shadow shot have no cooldowns, and you have mug on a 21-27 second cd.

I repeat, going for high condi duration is the wrong way to go, especially when you do so at the expense of better rune/sigil choices. Perplexity + sleight of hand is better than bewildering ambush, IMO. The cd reduction and daze on steal are game changers. Alternatively, balthazar is a good set too. Krait is fine if you can’t afford the other two, but don’t go for krait runes thinking they’re a better choice than perplexity or balthazar.

I tried both Sleight of Hand and Bewildering Ambush and I will agree the cooldown reduction alone makes Sleight of Hand a better trait. Ideally I do want to try Perplexity runes at some point – but does the extra burning condition from Balthazar really make then superior to Krait? If constant application of conditions is the goal, and I’m using Krait that is three conditions applied every 45 (assuming using Basilisk Venom) versus Balthazar which is one every 30 (assuming using Hide in Shadows). Also, Krait and Balthazar provide the same bonus to condition damage. Or am I missing something?

Also, I’m not going for high condition duration… I’m using full Dire with the exception of one Giver’s weapon. Is the trade-off of 90 condition damage and 64 toughness really not worth the 10% condition duration increase?

Also, by Shadow Shot I assume you mean Shadow Strike, correct?

messiah.1908:

for 1v1 or 1vx the duration is important a bit as after the signet warrior which has 800 heal per second use is utilities u can tick 5 seconds and above . without it you wont be able to kill anyone with -40%-60% condi duration

This was my major incentive to boosting condition duration: enemies using food to reduce condition duration, or warriors traited to reduce it.

I appreciate all the responses and would love to hear some more thoughts.

xihorus.2804:

I tried both Sleight of Hand and Bewildering Ambush and I will agree the cooldown reduction alone makes Sleight of Hand a better trait. Ideally I do want to try Perplexity runes at some point – but does the extra burning condition from Balthazar really make then superior to Krait? If constant application of conditions is the goal, and I’m using Krait that is three conditions applied every 45 (assuming using Basilisk Venom) versus Balthazar which is one every 30 (assuming using Hide in Shadows). Also, Krait and Balthazar provide the same bonus to condition damage. Or am I missing something?

You already have access to poison, torment, and bleed, all of which can be applied very easily (sneak attack, vital shot, shadow strike/shot, choking gas, mug). Balthazar gives you access to a condition that you would otherwise be unable to apply, and burning is one of the most powerful conditions in the game.

Lastly, you get the krait conditions every 45 seconds, but with balthazar, you can apply burning every 10 seconds using tonics (let’s face it, if you’re going to play p/d dire, might as well go all the way here).

xihorus.2804:

Also, I’m not going for high condition duration… I’m using full Dire with the exception of one Giver’s weapon. Is the trade-off of 90 condition damage and 64 toughness really not worth the 10% condition duration increase?

On the margins like that, the tradeoffs are up to you. However, I assume you chose Krait runes for the bleed duration, and I’m trying to say that bleed duration isn’t that important, especially when bleed is (probably) the condition that’s most easily removed, and, for you, most easily reapplied.

xihorus.2804:

messiah.1908:

for 1v1 or 1vx the duration is important a bit as after the signet warrior which has 800 heal per second use is utilities u can tick 5 seconds and above . without it you wont be able to kill anyone with -40%-60% condi duration

This was my major incentive to boosting condition duration: enemies using food to reduce condition duration, or warriors traited to reduce it.

I appreciate all the responses and would love to hear some more thoughts.

You’re going to have trouble killing any warrior spec’d to deal with conditions, regardless of duration. However, the best option here isn’t to stack duration in rune or armor choices, but just to use 40% duration food, which is very cheap. They’ll still cleanse most of your conditions, so stacking more conditions than they can cleanse is a better strategy than stacking a few long conditions that they can. This is even more true in a group fight.

Honestly do appreciate the advice. Going to give the Balthazar runes a try, especially since the Krait ones were so cheap it won’t be that much of a loss.

One question though…

mango.9267:

Lastly, you get the krait conditions every 45 seconds, but with balthazar, you can apply burning every 10 seconds using tonics (let’s face it, if you’re going to play p/d dire, might as well go all the way here).

What do you mean by “using tonics”?

xihorus.2804:

mango.9267:

Lastly, you get the krait conditions every 45 seconds, but with balthazar, you can apply burning every 10 seconds using tonics (let’s face it, if you’re going to play p/d dire, might as well go all the way here).

What do you mean by “using tonics”?

Use an endless quaggan tonic, or any tonic whose “end transformation” button is on 6. Hitting that button counts as a heal, so you proc the burn on balthazar, but you don’t use your actual heal. You can do this anywhere that allows tonics, in combat, out of combat, etc.

Alternatively, just use withdrawal. Learn to withdraw into your enemy — one of the staples of thief gameplay. 15 second cd.

I’ve been following this thread closely because I had some p/d questions, too.

I went full dire, including weapons, and I decided to splurge for perplexity. I love using slight of hand to cause confusion, so I’m pretty happy with Perplexity so far. I’m not sure if I would have liked Balthazar runes more, and I don’t have the money to switch between them.

All in all, I’m finding the condition thief a much safer, more forgiving, and more deadly thief than the traditional dps builds. Most people don’t expect to deal with the conditions thrown on em, and if they don’t have adequate condition removal (like mesmers) they just melt.

So thanks for the discussion, all. It’s been a big help.

Do not dismiss condition duration out of hand.

At the same time your damaging conditions do not need a lot of duration.

Where durations can be telling is with other conditions rarely used or factored into a build as in long durations on weakness, Chill, Immobilize cripple and the like.

A 3 second chill becoming a six second chill or a 10 second chill becoming a 20 second chill can be much more telling then doubling the duration of a bleed.

What rotation do you all usually use when running a p/d with a sb and perplex runes?

steal+ cnd →dodge →sneak →shadow strike
if you close to him as first use shadow strike→steal+cnd…

Just in case anyone has been following this thread I thought I would share my experiences with some of the rune sets:

Krait:

• Pros: Bleed duration is devastating against opponents with little to no condition removal. I could apply bleeds and pretty much hide in stealth and watch them die.
• Cons: Bleed duration pretty useless if they do have good condition removal. Also the 6th set bonus pretty much forces you into using Basilisk Venom, and applies conditions you are already normally applying.

Balthazar

• Pros: Burning is not a condition you normally have access to, and can really help out if your opponent has good condition clearing.
• Cons: Burning only happens when you heal near the opponent. If you’re using HiS, that will be every 30 seconds only. Withdraw helps with this, but you lose the stealth and bleed/poison/burning removal of HiS.

Perplexity:

• Pros: Adds a condition you can apply that synergizes really well with Sleight of Hand.
• Cons: To trigger the condition with Sleight of Hand, you actually have to interrupt a move your opponent is doing. I found that at the beginning of the fight, especially if you jump someone, Steal→CnD won’t normally trigger it.

As a follow up question to this topic, what utility skills do you guys normally run?
I’ve found Spider and Skale Venom to be pretty useless (since those conditions are getting applied normally anyways). It also seems that a stun breaker (Roll for Initiative / Shadowstep) and a stealth move (Blinding Powder / Shadow Refuge) is almost mandatory for this build.

xihorus.2804:

Just in case anyone has been following this thread I thought I would share my experiences with some of the rune sets:

Krait:

• Pros: Bleed duration is devastating against opponents with little to no condition removal. I could apply bleeds and pretty much hide in stealth and watch them die.
• Cons: Bleed duration pretty useless if they do have good condition removal. Also the 6th set bonus pretty much forces you into using Basilisk Venom, and applies conditions you are already normally applying.

Balthazar

• Pros: Burning is not a condition you normally have access to, and can really help out if your opponent has good condition clearing.
• Cons: Burning only happens when you heal near the opponent. If you’re using HiS, that will be every 30 seconds only. Withdraw helps with this, but you lose the stealth and bleed/poison/burning removal of HiS.

Perplexity:

• Pros: Adds a condition you can apply that synergizes really well with Sleight of Hand.
• Cons: To trigger the condition with Sleight of Hand, you actually have to interrupt a move your opponent is doing. I found that at the beginning of the fight, especially if you jump someone, Steal->CnD won’t normally trigger it.

As a follow up question to this topic, what utility skills do you guys normally run?
I’ve found Spider and Skale Venom to be pretty useless (since those conditions are getting applied normally anyways). It also seems that a stun breaker (Roll for Initiative / Shadowstep) and a stealth move (Blinding Powder / Shadow Refuge) is almost mandatory for this build.

for me balthazar >any rune. i use withraw and cleanse condition with SS and stealth cleanse.
skale buff your dmg so you can tick higher in shorter time so even if the enemy got cleanse you will do dmg. so many p/d thieves which not use this cant even kill me just harras me as only 5 bleed and 2 torment wont do much

messiah.1908:

xihorus.2804:

Just in case anyone has been following this thread I thought I would share my experiences with some of the rune sets:

Krait:

• Pros: Bleed duration is devastating against opponents with little to no condition removal. I could apply bleeds and pretty much hide in stealth and watch them die.
• Cons: Bleed duration pretty useless if they do have good condition removal. Also the 6th set bonus pretty much forces you into using Basilisk Venom, and applies conditions you are already normally applying.

Balthazar

• Pros: Burning is not a condition you normally have access to, and can really help out if your opponent has good condition clearing.
• Cons: Burning only happens when you heal near the opponent. If you’re using HiS, that will be every 30 seconds only. Withdraw helps with this, but you lose the stealth and bleed/poison/burning removal of HiS.

Perplexity:

• Pros: Adds a condition you can apply that synergizes really well with Sleight of Hand.
• Cons: To trigger the condition with Sleight of Hand, you actually have to interrupt a move your opponent is doing. I found that at the beginning of the fight, especially if you jump someone, Steal->CnD won’t normally trigger it.

As a follow up question to this topic, what utility skills do you guys normally run?
I’ve found Spider and Skale Venom to be pretty useless (since those conditions are getting applied normally anyways). It also seems that a stun breaker (Roll for Initiative / Shadowstep) and a stealth move (Blinding Powder / Shadow Refuge) is almost mandatory for this build.

for me balthazar >any rune. i use withraw and cleanse condition with SS and stealth cleanse.
skale buff your dmg so you can tick higher in shorter time so even if the enemy got cleanse you will do dmg. so many p/d thieves which not use this cant even kill me just harras me as only 5 bleed and 2 torment wont do much

What about torment? I made a thread about this yesterday but no responses yet. I’m currently using balthazar and love it, but was considering saving for tormenting runes, as you get the torment on heal + 35% torment duration. Now, I know that the on-heal of balthazar runes is better being that its burning and a unique condition, but the burning duration from runes only affect that ability, where is I have 2 other sources of torment.

might just stick with baltz because im broke

i used torment and it could be fun to cause 11 stacks of in fast but as it is same condition it can be cleanse much easier than new condition like burning and also burning does much higher dmg

dont forget that p/d thieves can down ppl in 5 seconds if they already used their cleanse skills so having 10 sec of torment might be useless

and yes the price is to high for it

messiah.1908:

go full dire
if you 1v1 a lot you’ll get bored pretty fast as this set is super easy and forgiving

go balthazar rune as it give bruning which is huge dmg ppl wont expect thieves to do and perplexity only give you 3 stacks mainly and you already got 5 with trait

use 10,0,30,0,30

about duration
AA will tick 4 seconds so 100% is 8, 75% is 7 50% is 6 and 25% is 5
shadow shot and BA (trait) is 5 seconds so 100% is 10, 9 sec is 80% , 8 sec 60%, 7 sec is 40%, 6 is 20%
balthazar rune is 4 sec burning so 100% is 6 , 66% is 5

with 2 in DA line and 40% food you will have 50% condi duration so to go higher you will need 25% for bleeding which will be trade off with condi dmg and only give you 1 sec tick which is about 600 dmg while more condi dmg will benefit also torment and confusion

so i say aim for 60% (with malice sigil)
you will have burning 6 seconds , torment and confusion 8 sec, bleeding 6 sec
you will do in 6 seconds around 3k dps which is 18k dmg

Hey messiah can I see your build? This is what I came up with & wanted to make sure I had the traits right.

Also whats the better secondary SB or D/P?