Guild Wars 2

Okay so this has been posted elsewhere on the internets, but I don’t know if this has been addressed here.

The typical nomenclature is to use Hidden Killer in perma stealth backstab builds, and to use Executioner’s on other builds. This post is here to answer the question: Why? Hopefully from answering this question, we can have a better understanding of the two different traits and establish a guideline on how to effectively judge whether we should take one over the other in any given backstab build. So let’s get to it!

This is going to involve some basic math, but I’ll try to walk us through it as best as possible. For those who don’t care about the math, the formula is as follows:

b = (0.3 +a) / (0.6 + 1.2(a))
Where b = chance to crit; and a = crit% dmg increase.
Any b-value above the calculated value will mean to choose Executioner’s. Anything below this b-value will mean to choose Hidden Killer.

The expected damage (i.e. the damage that will occur most often) of any build follows this basic rule:
E = d(1 – b) + D(b)

Where:
Expected Damage = E
Non-crit damage = d
crit damage = D
increased % to crit damage = a
and percentage chance to crit = b

Also please note:
D = d(1.5 + a)

Plugging this into our E equation, we get:
E = d(1 – b) + d(1.5 + a)(b)

Now lets compare hidden killer expected damage to Executioner’s expected damage. First, we make some simple assumptions that we are only backstabbing (i.e. attacking from stealth) and the target is always below 50% health, holding all other variables equal:

Hidden Killer expected damage:
E = d(1.5 + a)
This is true since b = 1, or in other words 100%.

Executioner’s expected damage:
E = 1.2(d(1 – b) + d(1.5 + a)(b))
Basically multiply the expected damage by the multiplier of Executioner’s.

Now we set them equal to each other and solve for our crit chance:
d(1.5 + a) = 1.2(d(1 – b) + d(1.5 + a)(b))
simplifying will result to:
b = (0.3 + a) / (0.6 + 1.2a)

This equations says that the percentage chance to crit, where the damage of hidden killers and executioner’s is equal to each other, is when you take your crit% damage increase and do some maths to it.

As an example:
Say you have 50% increase to your crit damage. Then the crit percentage chance that will make hidden killer and executioner’s equal to each other will be:
b = (0.3 +0.5) / (0.6 + 1.2(0.5))
b = 2/3 = 66%

So at around 66% chance to crit, you will be indifferent between taking Hidden Killer or Executioner’s. Anything above this number, and Executioner’s will outperform Hidden Killer. Anything below this number, and Hidden Killer will outperform Executioner’s. Also, if you can breach this crit chance, then you will do more damage than if you use hidden killer with lower crit chance, regardless. This pushes us to establish some crit chance above a certain level.

Please note that, since we are dealing with assumptions, this number shouldn’t be treated as a specific value, only a general one. But to see why this number is a valid number, we look at a standard backstab build in spvp:

gw2skills link

This build has a 53% dmg increase to crit. This means that the crit chance we need, to validate bringing Executioner’s, is 67%. At best, with side strikes, we can get 60% (65% with the off-chance you will be above 90% health). With fury, we get 80% – well above our threshold. So this merits bringing Executioner’s in this build. Fundamentally this highlights why there is an importance to bringing fury (Trickery V) in any backstab build with Executioner’s. Lets look at a typical perma-stealth build:

gw2skills link

This build has a 58% dmg increase to crit. This means we need a crit chance of 68%.
The best we can get in this build is 54% with 5 minor in the crit line. If we chose to use 10 in trickery for trickery V, then we can push this value up to 69 – 74%. This would validate an Executioner’s, but to do this we lose out on better control of our heartseekers through blackpowder (acrobatics VI). So if we choose to have better control, we have to use Hidden Killer because we don’t have anything that will bump our crit chance past the threshold. This validates taking Hidden Killer.

I hope this helps others have some better foothold on how to choose ether trait. Of course this only applies if you have 30 in the crit line and running a backstab build, but I still hope it helps others.

I have a simpler way. If you are going to build around backstab, by all means choose it. If you just want good damage, equip Executioner and enough precision to have a 40-60% crit chance and as much power as you can. The rest can be placed in crit damage.

Just my personal opinion: Hidden Killer should be in Shadow Arts.

The problem zacch, is that rule is too specific. If a person runs full zerkers with food in wvw, you need a crit chance of about 73 to 75%. Thanks for the contribution though, and you would be right in a general sense for spvp -though i would push those values up to 50 to 65%.

Which is better depends a lot more on your attacks patterns, and how much of your damage comes from your “From Stealth” attacks than your crit chance. When comparing the two traits, measuring critical hit chance is incorrect. You need to determine how much of a percentage of your total damage needs to come from your “From Stealth” attacks with Hidden Killer selected for it to be better than Executioner. (And when doing this I suggest just assuming Hidden Killer will be active 50% of the time, like youre in PVE, even though thats wrong in PVP)

For instance; Lets say you roll up on someone in WvW. They have 20k HP, you BS them for 4k, since they turned to face you randomly at the last second, then melee them down another 8k with your autoattack, then start spamming HS, and when theyre at like 1k HP they get their heal off and it cures them for 9k. You did 4k damage with your BS, 8k with your autoattack and 17k with HS. I don’t care how you spin it, at no point would Hidden Killer have better for this fight.

Lets look at another example; Lets say you come up behind some zerker, healing signet Warrior with 20k HP, you have Hidden Killer selected, and you BS them for 11k, then AA them for 1k, then dodged away because they eviscerated you and it took most of your HP and you had to use your heal (hide in shadows), then you BS’d them again for 11k and they got downed. This was the perfect amount of damage to do in the time frame of 5~ seconds to down that zerker regen signet warrior, who would have been above 50% HP for both backstabs. There is no way you could possibly spin this scenario to put Executioner above Hidden Killer for DPS.

Do you see what Im talking about now? Which is better isn’t determined by critical hit chance, it’s determined by playstyle. These example might be a little strange, and you could even call them extreme, but theyre just to demonstrate my point, and they do a good job of that.

One thing’s for sure though, use Executioner if you main hand a sword or dual wield pistols.

wish.1027:

Which is better depends a lot more on your attacks patterns, and how much of your damage comes from your “From Stealth” attacks than your crit chance. When comparing the two traits, measuring critical hit chance is incorrect. You need to determine how much of a percentage of your total damage needs to come from your “From Stealth” attacks with Hidden Killer selected for it to be better than Executioner. (And when doing this I suggest just assuming Hidden Killer will be active 50% of the time, like youre in PVE, even though thats wrong in PVP)

For instance; Lets say you roll up on someone in WvW. They have 20k HP, you BS them for 4k, since they turned to face you randomly at the last second, then melee them down another 8k with your autoattack, then start spamming HS, and when theyre at like 1k HP they get their heal off and it cures them for 9k. You did 4k damage with your BS, 8k with your autoattack and 17k with HS. I don’t care how you spin it, at no point would Hidden Killer have better for this fight.

Lets look at another example; Lets say you come up behind some zerker, healing signet Warrior with 20k HP, you have Hidden Killer selected, and you BS them for 11k, then AA them for 1k, then dodged away because they eviscerated you and it took most of your HP and you had to use your heal (hide in shadows), then you BS’d them again for 11k and they got downed. This was the perfect amount of damage to do in the time frame of 5~ seconds to down that zerker regen signet warrior, who would have been above 50% HP for both backstabs. There is no way you could possibly spin this scenario to put Executioner above Hidden Killer for DPS.

Do you see what Im talking about now? Which is better isn’t determined by critical hit chance, it’s determined by playstyle. These example might be a little strange, and you could even call them extreme, but theyre just to demonstrate my point, and they do a good job of that.

Wish, I’ve seen you around the forums and appreciate your posts. Mainly because of the insight and knowledge you present in a “What do you think?” sort of fashion. I logged just to reply to your post. I have been saying this since the beginning of time, and I’ve played my fair share of MMO’s. Viability and play style go hand in hand more than anyone could imagine. There will always be cookie cutter builds, or “meta”, if you will, that you could emulate and be successful with. At the same time, there’s always a different path to take, and other options to explore. I couldn’t agree more with what you said, and I hope other players can understand the concepts of playstyle and viability. Just because your favorite WvW streamer is dominating the ranks with his build, doesn’t mean it’s the end all win all way to go. Happy Hunting folks

wish.1027:

Which is better depends a lot more on your attacks patterns, and how much of your damage comes from your “From Stealth” attacks than your crit chance.

Well, I’m sorry but I won’t have a discussion with random numbers as examples – that will serve nether of us any good.

You are right on certain aspects though, there is absolutely no reason to believe that someone who runs with full Valkyrie with Hidden Killer will deal more damage overall than someone who runs with Executioner’s. This is implied in the assumptions and I should have mentioned that more explicitly, I guess. There is a reason why this number should be considered a general rule, back of the napkin, calculation – which is why I mentioned that. The extremes will never work out correctly and this is obvious. On the other extreme, we shouldn’t be creating builds to ONLY search for targets below 50% health. The benefit from this number is it’s easy to calculate and gives a general baseline on what someone should be aiming for, if they want to deal more damage with Executioner’s in a reasonable build that demands a look into whether a person should bring Executioner’s or Hidden Killer. There IS a breakline in crit chance that we should be looking for though, and a simple Expected Damage calculation and comparison gives proof of this.

For PvE do the calculation for 4 auto attacks (1 full chain + the first attack), Dagger #5 and Dagger #1. That’s the ideal damage rotation.

i do have a question, if i run executioner trait, and i hit someone and his HP went to 1/4 does executioner apply on that or on the next attack?

Zeke, if the target had above 50% health before you dropped him down to 1/4 health, then the next attack will apply the added damage.

If there was a power crit dmg + crit dmg gear thenn hidden killer would be useful , most of.thieves run in full zerk gear which makes this.trait completly worthless . I always use executionner .

What if we can use both?
Assassin build: (100% crit chance with Executioner)
http://tinyurl.com/mqvbd5o

*100% crit chance can be obtain with this build if you have 25 stacks of precision

If you can achieve 100% crit chance with executioner’s, then that’s fine xbyte. The general idea is to just breach a certain threshold to merit bringing executioner’s.

However, just so we’re both aware xbyte, the primary way to increase your raw damage is to increase your power. This is why you see most people run zerker gear. From Guild Wars 2 Wiki :

“In almost all cases, raising power is the most efficient way to increase direct damage”

My rule, I run Hidden Killer in D/D BS builds and Executioner in most everything else. Lately though I’ve been having a hard time not traiting it with D/D simply for the HS spam under 50% health… I love cheese. I’ll do some testing.