Guild Wars 2

why shoulndt a thief be able to? they lose so many things….why not give them atleast the thing that makes the class thief/assassin like…..fighting from shadows and hiding when u want. if u screw up u die :P simple.zergs isnt a real option….spvp/tpvp either. wvw roaming is pretty much all thieves have. why ruin it? you know they will buff the kitten out of thieves if this happens right? they will become real terrors in spvp tpvp and wvw zergs….. lets not even talk about pve as its pretty well known they suck in pve :P

Yes, fire all of your CC in rapid succession, then be surprised when it gets cleared in the same manner. I mean that just doesn’t happen… all those stacked knockdowns (two, by the way, not three) and even stun/immobilise. What could possibly defeat such measures?!

Oh, right, loads of things.

Bacon Please.8407:

guardians…on my warrior i destroy them.

WUT

15 character limit

They nerfed Shadow Return, have fun with stealth.

Bacon Please.8407:

snip
I’ve seen an engineer face tank a well coordinated team of players and down two of the 5 before escaping.

Who EXACTLY did they escape from? A couple Necros? Maybe a Guard with swiftness on cool down? Because they sure didn’t escape from Thieves, Eles, Rangers, Warriors and to some degree, Mesmers…

We don’t have any reasonable method of escape besides shielding and running, hoping our cool downs will sync and no one will try to CC us… since we also have 1 random skill that grants stability 50% of the time.

LameFox.6349:

Yes, fire all of your CC in rapid succession, then be surprised when it gets cleared in the same manner. I mean that just doesn’t happen… all those stacked knockdowns (two, by the way, not three) and even stun/immobilise. What could possibly defeat such measures?!

Oh, right, loads of things.

Only someone who has never, ever successfully played an Engineer in any high-level content would post anything at all about rocket boots.

We are very limited on our skill bar as it is, since we generally have to use kits for damage/utility instead of having a weapons swap, and 99% of level 80 Engineers will never seriously slot this on their bar, but thanks for the laugh.

Ralathar.7236:

So lets add this up, shadow return removes 3 conditions, teleports you back to where you started from up to 1,200 away, and breaks stun instantly. Hide in Shadows removes all damaging conditions, so any conditions that hurt would be gone and the thief is far away stealthed and running away.

I really don’t know what more I could have done. I condition stacked, immobilized, stunned, and generally wrecked his face but he gets a get out of jail free card. I mean ya I wrecked his face because he was blatantly terrible (rocket turret knockdown is MASSIVELY telegraphed), but he still doesn’t even have to die for being terrible.

as a thief, i cant help but feel offended that you could even remotely accuse them of having unfair GOOJF cards. try d/d ele, or rangers, with their easy access to boons, their uptime, and ridiculous mobility. i get beyond tired of the bad ones just zooming away across the map with their stupid bullkitten, try throwing a fit on a board for one of the actual bullkitten classes.

Lenn.6347:

Ralathar.7236:

So lets add this up, shadow return removes 3 conditions, teleports you back to where you started from up to 1,200 away, and breaks stun instantly. Hide in Shadows removes all damaging conditions, so any conditions that hurt would be gone and the thief is far away stealthed and running away.

I really don’t know what more I could have done. I condition stacked, immobilized, stunned, and generally wrecked his face but he gets a get out of jail free card. I mean ya I wrecked his face because he was blatantly terrible (rocket turret knockdown is MASSIVELY telegraphed), but he still doesn’t even have to die for being terrible.

as a thief, i cant help but feel offended that you could even remotely accuse them of having unfair GOOJF cards. try d/d ele, or rangers, with their easy access to boons, their uptime, and ridiculous mobility. i get beyond tired of the bad ones just zooming away across the map with their stupid bullkitten, try throwing a fit on a board for one of the actual bullkitten classes.

D/D ele’s is not a get out of jail free card. It’s a trifle imbalanced atm but it’s a combination of fairly good mobility, being able to strafe 90% of their damage at a distance on the run, being able to put up boons way faster than you can strip them, and being able to drop conditions left and right.

Honestly they don’t need big tweaks to bring that down into managable levels, and I HATE fighting bunkers ele’s that actually know how to play. Pretty much takes mass CC lockdown to keep them in place and kill them if they are good. They can be problematic for groups and a death sentence for single players.

Rangers are definitely very evasive and can regen alot, but there is really only 1 or 2 builds that Ranger needs any toning down on. Both of these builds rely on mobility and regen, which is healing over time. They die to CC and spike, but can be rather problematic 1 on 1 for many classes. Faced with a few people however that Ranger should eat dirt quickly.

Pet leash needs to be shortened a bit though. I hate saying that as a range but currently pet leash is something ridiculous like 4,000 to 5,000 I think. Beastmaster build almost certain to get a few key nerfs.
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But you know what none of these people can do? Break Stun while teleporting away and stealth while removing all damaging conditions. This without any traits and using only 1 utility slot. Also, thief is more mobile than all of those, they just don’t play that way for the most part.

lunyboy.8672:

LameFox.6349:

Yes, fire all of your CC in rapid succession, then be surprised when it gets cleared in the same manner. I mean that just doesn’t happen… all those stacked knockdowns (two, by the way, not three) and even stun/immobilise. What could possibly defeat such measures?!

Oh, right, loads of things.

Only someone who has never, ever successfully played an Engineer in any high-level content would post anything at all about rocket boots.

We are very limited on our skill bar as it is, since we generally have to use kits for damage/utility instead of having a weapons swap, and 99% of level 80 Engineers will never seriously slot this on their bar, but thanks for the laugh.

Engineer was my second 80 after warrior, has full exotics + asc amulet (call of the wild). I’ve used the class in dungeons, solo lvl 2 fractals because nobody is ever running them when I’m online as the whole server is asleep, WvW, and of course farming Orr because back when it hit 80 that was just the thing to do.

Of course now no doubt you’ll just come up with some arbitrary definition of ‘successfully’ so that your beliefs continue to be self-reinforcing, which also continues to completely ignore the fact that whatever you think of the skill, it would have broken the OP’s CC chain, because using CC that way is just incredibly dependent on killing before it can all be nullified at once, which he fell short of.

…and just for the hell of it, this or this would’ve worked too, from arguably the worst class at escaping anything ever.

LameFox.6349:

lunyboy.8672:

LameFox.6349:

Yes, fire all of your CC in rapid succession, then be surprised when it gets cleared in the same manner. I mean that just doesn’t happen… all those stacked knockdowns (two, by the way, not three) and even stun/immobilise. What could possibly defeat such measures?!

Oh, right, loads of things.

Only someone who has never, ever successfully played an Engineer in any high-level content would post anything at all about rocket boots.

We are very limited on our skill bar as it is, since we generally have to use kits for damage/utility instead of having a weapons swap, and 99% of level 80 Engineers will never seriously slot this on their bar, but thanks for the laugh.

Engineer was my second 80 after warrior, has full exotics + asc amulet (call of the wild). I’ve used the class in dungeons, solo lvl 2 fractals because nobody is ever running them when I’m online as the whole server is asleep, WvW, and of course farming Orr because back when it hit 80 that was just the thing to do.

Of course now no doubt you’ll just come up with some arbitrary definition of ‘successfully’ so that your beliefs continue to be self-reinforcing, which also continues to completely ignore the fact that whatever you think of the skill, it would have broken the OP’s CC chain, because using CC that way is just incredibly dependent on killing before it can all be nullified at once, which he fell short of.

…and just for the hell of it, this or this would’ve worked too, from arguably the worst class at escaping anything ever.

None of this changes the fact that rocket boots is an overall terrible skill that wouldn’t even slow down a thief who will cover the distance almost as fast as you and attack you while you are stunned from your own skill.

So now all of a sudden thief is the only class that can escape fights? True they can escape easier than others, but this is what “thief” stands for… Being slippery.

1- A mesmer can create few clones, stealth, and run away while you are wasting your time with the clones. Heck he could have even posted a portal somewhere far before engaging you, and use it in case he was in trouble.
2- If I’m not mistaken, an engineer got stealth as well. Couple that with a swiftness buff, and you are on the run.
3- Warriors, Necromancers, Rangers, and Guardians are the hardest to run off, it is all about tanking whatever damage coming while running and immobilizing, fearing, slowing (Whatever applies)…. their opponents.

As for how you can counter that, I can’t help you exactly because I’m not an expert with Engineers skills.

Ralathar.7236:

Pop my turret abilities and he gets perma-blinded, has like 10 seconds of burning, has 6+ stacks of bleed, Rocket Turret lands the first knockdown, I time the supply crate for the second stun, rocket turret knocks down a third time. All knockdowns in a row without him being able to act after eating the first one.

At this point the thief still has all the burning, bleeding, and now poison on him, is at 5% hp, and is stunned on his back while immobilized. Shadow Return, Hide in Shadows, runs away at half health with no conditions on him already out of combat.

Am I the only one that thinks its crazy how can someone apply such an amount of CC and conditions to leave the opponent without being able to act and at the same time complain that others are OP?

lLobo.7960:

Ralathar.7236:

Pop my turret abilities and he gets perma-blinded, has like 10 seconds of burning, has 6+ stacks of bleed, Rocket Turret lands the first knockdown, I time the supply crate for the second stun, rocket turret knocks down a third time. All knockdowns in a row without him being able to act after eating the first one.

At this point the thief still has all the burning, bleeding, and now poison on him, is at 5% hp, and is stunned on his back while immobilized. Shadow Return, Hide in Shadows, runs away at half health with no conditions on him already out of combat.

Am I the only one that thinks its crazy how can someone apply such an amount of CC and conditions to leave the opponent without being able to act and at the same time complain that others are OP?

Prople like him will keep complaining until they get a nuke that is an un-dodge-able aoe with the tool-belt skill being a missile that instantly kills a target. That way it won’t matter that he can still perma lock down an area. He will be able to commit genocide instead.

What scratch that. He will then complain if he misses the nuke and the thief shadow steps away, leaving a charred pile of poop from fear. Thief will always be op to these people no matter what the situation.

Ralathar.7236:

None of this changes the fact that rocket boots is an overall terrible skill that wouldn’t even slow down a thief who will cover the distance almost as fast as you and attack you while you are stunned from your own skill.

And? I never said anything about using it vs a thief, the point is that it’s yet another skill that would get someone out of (and away from) knockdown, stun, and immobilise. You know… those things you’re complaining that someone who happened to be a thief got out of.

You’ve taken a bunch of skills pretty much designed around lacking mobility and got in a fight with a class that is amongst the most mobile in-combat (out being warrior), wasted your control effects on stopping someone who was already stopped, and been foiled by a single stunbreak. One which had to be set up prior to fighting you and only lasts ten seconds, at that.

At that point it doesn’t even matter that they were a thief, because they’ve not done anything only a thief could do. You even point out ‘[he] runs away at half health with no conditions’, so I guess we can rule out perma-stealth.

Also: hide in shadows removes DOTs but not all damaging conditions (there’s also confusion), and rocket boots’ self-effect is launch, stun is different.

Ralathar, yes it is highly annoying when after even the most failed attempt at bursting you down (like spamming HS in immobilize or backstabbing when we static shield) any thief with half his wit can reset the game to try again. But as many have probably said already, using a turret build (the most immobile build on the most immobile class) and not catching the most mobile class with a mechanic inclined for spamming the skill most necessary for the situation shouldn’t be surprising. This is actually one of the very few cases that i agree with the sentiment “if he runs you have won”, turrets have only one special niche, playing an offensive bunker vs solo players without pets, massive aoe, conditions or range (yes, ive killed and/or driven off bunker/hybrid eles just running straight onto my close by pouring down overcharges until his ears starts bleeding) by stunlocking them and filling them full with conditions. They actually work pretty well as a thief deterrent (non sword, if they are sword GG) as they catch him as soon as he exit stealth (overcharging a net turret when he stealths for a backstabb means a stunned thief unable to follow up) and they are usually built glassy enough for the turrets to be a threat. Of course no sane person would ever run turrets in spvp seriously (i do for trolling sometimes) as mesmers are essentially a hard counter for you, and they aren’t exactly rare. They will use phantasms (who strangely enough attack the designated target) while being immune to your turrets (who do not attack the target but the clones and otherwise get body blocked by them) while you are essentially converted into a low damaging beating bag with not much defense outside of your one weapon set (and toolkit if you sacrifice a turret) while he/she can burst you while laughing out loud.

So believe me, a non S/D thief is the least of your problems as a turreteer. And in the case of wvwvw none with any reason at all would use turrets other than for using their tool belt skills in a static discharge build. Meaning don’t place turrets in wvw, believe me you’l be sorry.

Oh yes and about thee rocket boots thing, it cleanses conditions after the launch, so using it to cleanse just means you practically knock yourself down. And the launch is not that great when it works perfectly either.

lLobo.7960:

Am I the only one that thinks its crazy how can someone apply such an amount of CC and conditions to leave the opponent without being able to act and at the same time complain that others are OP?

I chain stunned a squishy with easily avoidable (aside from supply crate) moves and killed him. The knockdown rockets from the turrets take about the same amount of time no matter the distance and are the only rockets the turrent launches in a high arc 10 feet into the air. For refrence you can see this coming from about 3/4 second to a full second away. 2 of the 3 CC stuns were tied to turrets which are both immobile and can be countered. When killed the turret has a lengthy 50 second cooldown and it has less than 7,500 health and less than 1,300 armor.

If you think this amount of CC is bad you’ve never met a CC warrior. They have about triple what I just listed there and can easily keep one person without control of thei character for over 10 seconds without a stun break. The kicker is that at least 3 of these skills are AOE and 1 of them is a fear which you can use the knockdown time to position yourself into making them run into danger and away from safety.

Honestly complaining about the CC of Rocket Turret is like complaining about 100 Blades damage. Technically it’s very good but it’s so easily avoided it’s comical. Luckily many players are flat out bad.

randomfightfan.4091:

Prople like him will keep complaining until they get a nuke that is an un-dodge-able aoe with the tool-belt skill being a missile that instantly kills a target. That way it won’t matter that he can still perma lock down an area. He will be able to commit genocide instead.

What scratch that. He will then complain if he misses the nuke and the thief shadow steps away, leaving a charred pile of poop from fear. Thief will always be op to these people no matter what the situation.

Turrets need a buff, this is true. How many turret users do you see, well, anywhere? Now how many dual dagger thieves do you see? Now how many sword/pistol thieves do you see?

This scenario makes a perfect example because it is an extreme situation. One that only played out so well for me because the thief was bad. He could have easily dodged that 1st knockdown and could have broken stun during the 1st two knockdowns at any time. This isn’t a trick dodge like thieves telling people to listen for CnD to dodge it, this is a highly visible rocket with about a full second of air time.

But even in this extreme situation with everything going my way including the thief being bad, he lives because he can stun break, teleport, condition remove, heal, stealth, and removes all damage conditions within 1 second without stat or trait investment and sacrificing only 1 utility slot.

Ralathar.7236:

But even in this extreme situation with everything going my way including the thief being bad, he lives because he can stun break, teleport, condition remove, heal, stealth, and removes all damage conditions within 1 second without stat or trait investment and sacrificing only 1 utility slot.

Actually, to be able to remove the conditions the way you listed, he must trait it.

miriforst.1290:

Ralathar, yes it is highly annoying when after even the most failed attempt at bursting you down (like spamming HS in immobilize or backstabbing when we static shield) any thief with half his wit can reset the game to try again. But as many have probably said already, using a turret build (the most immobile build on the most immobile class) and not catching the most mobile class with a mechanic inclined for spamming the skill most necessary for the situation shouldn’t be surprising. This is actually one of the very few cases that i agree with the sentiment “if he runs you have won”, turrets have only one special niche, playing an offensive bunker vs solo players without pets, massive aoe, conditions or range (yes, ive killed and/or driven off bunker/hybrid eles just running straight onto my close by pouring down overcharges until his ears starts bleeding) by stunlocking them and filling them full with conditions.

Pretty poor bunker ele’s as bunker ele’s tend to have ace condition removal. They actually work pretty well as a thief deterrent (non sword, if they are sword GG) as they catch him as soon as he exit stealth (overcharging a net turret when he stealths for a backstabb means a stunned thief unable to follow up) and they are usually built glassy enough for the turrets to be a threat.

Of course no sane person would ever run turrets in spvp seriously (i do for trolling sometimes) as mesmers are essentially a hard counter for you, and they aren’t exactly rare.

Quite true.

And in the case of wvwvw none with any reason at all would use turrets other than for using their tool belt skills in a static discharge build. Meaning don’t place turrets in wvw, believe me you’l be sorry.

I wouldn’t say turret build is competitive with the best builds, but it’s viable and isn’t that bad. Turrets just need to be a little less frail and have a few things ironed out. The build is competitive when the turrets can be kept up for a reasonable time (other than long cooldowns)

Azraeel.1238:

Ralathar.7236:

But even in this extreme situation with everything going my way including the thief being bad, he lives because he can stun break, teleport, condition remove, heal, stealth, and removes all damage conditions within 1 second without stat or trait investment and sacrificing only 1 utility slot.

Actually, to be able to remove the conditions the way you listed, he must trait it.

Hide in Shadows removes all damaging conditions, also the sword shadow return removes a single condition, the utility skill version removes three conditions. No traits needed for any of those.

Ralathar.7236:

Azraeel.1238:

Ralathar.7236:

But even in this extreme situation with everything going my way including the thief being bad, he lives because he can stun break, teleport, condition remove, heal, stealth, and removes all damage conditions within 1 second without stat or trait investment and sacrificing only 1 utility slot.

Actually, to be able to remove the conditions the way you listed, he must trait it.

Hide in Shadows removes all damaging conditions, also the sword shadow return removes a single condition, the utility skill version removes three conditions. No traits needed for any of those.

Imagine if an ele used blink and the channeled heal. That’d be less skills used, more conditions cleared, and more healing. They could even use armor of earth to break the first stun and be immune to all the subsequent stuns and just wreck the turret engi’s life. Even a warrior could stability and immunity through most of that combo, easily destroy the turrets, and most likely destroy the engi. Mesmer could blink away and clear the conditions as well. They’d require a few more skills but it’s a mesmer… it could have killed the engi without ever walking into the turret field. Guardian could also have easily walked into the turret field, stability’d through everything, destroyed everything with gs or hammer, and most likely destroyed that engi (not saying you’re bad, just the build is easily counterable). Just imagine if a grenade engi saw that turret engi. What a field day he’d be having.

So now, why are you singling out thief? What he did wasn’t special. Any class could have done it. You are literly complaining that someone stun broke your stun and cleansed your conditions. That’s not thief specific.

“HS should be a finishing move, and not another autoattack, so the initiative cost needs an increase.”
(Quote button doesn’t work here atm for some reason)
You do know that for a skill to be a finishing move (when relying on initiative pool), it has to be on a low cost right? At the end of a fight, you’ll always have used some initiatives, the more you use, the less you’ll be able to use high costing skills. A finishing move can’t be a high initiative costing skill.

Ralathar.7236:

Azraeel.1238:

Ralathar.7236:

But even in this extreme situation with everything going my way including the thief being bad, he lives because he can stun break, teleport, condition remove, heal, stealth, and removes all damage conditions within 1 second without stat or trait investment and sacrificing only 1 utility slot.

Actually, to be able to remove the conditions the way you listed, he must trait it.

Hide in Shadows removes all damaging conditions, also the sword shadow return removes a single condition, the utility skill version removes three conditions. No traits needed for any of those.

Okay, one at a time:
1- Hide in Shadows removes burning, poison, and bleeding. Can’t cure confusions.
2- For the Shadowstep/Shadow Return Utility, he must have initiated it on attack to be able to use the shadow return, otherwise he will end up back next to you. Most thieves use steal as a starter, not waste a utility off the bat.
3- This leaves the shadow return from sword, curing one condition, which isn’t enough.

lLobo.7960:

Ralathar.7236:

Pop my turret abilities and he gets perma-blinded, has like 10 seconds of burning, has 6+ stacks of bleed, Rocket Turret lands the first knockdown, I time the supply crate for the second stun, rocket turret knocks down a third time. All knockdowns in a row without him being able to act after eating the first one.

At this point the thief still has all the burning, bleeding, and now poison on him, is at 5% hp, and is stunned on his back while immobilized. Shadow Return, Hide in Shadows, runs away at half health with no conditions on him already out of combat.

Am I the only one that thinks its crazy how can someone apply such an amount of CC and conditions to leave the opponent without being able to act and at the same time complain that others are OP?

Really? He had it all set up beforehand and used his elite to stun. It’s sheer arrogance to go in when you see your opponent preparing their turrets and staking out the area and then complain that they’re “OP” when they reap the benefits of their preparations.

bhagwad.4281:

lLobo.7960:

Ralathar.7236:

Pop my turret abilities and he gets perma-blinded, has like 10 seconds of burning, has 6+ stacks of bleed, Rocket Turret lands the first knockdown, I time the supply crate for the second stun, rocket turret knocks down a third time. All knockdowns in a row without him being able to act after eating the first one.

At this point the thief still has all the burning, bleeding, and now poison on him, is at 5% hp, and is stunned on his back while immobilized. Shadow Return, Hide in Shadows, runs away at half health with no conditions on him already out of combat.

Am I the only one that thinks its crazy how can someone apply such an amount of CC and conditions to leave the opponent without being able to act and at the same time complain that others are OP?

Really? He had it all set up beforehand and used his elite to stun. It’s sheer arrogance to go in when you see your opponent preparing their turrets and staking out the area and then complain that they’re “OP” when they reap the benefits of their preparations.

To be fair I threw them on top of his head once he decided to engage. But also to be fair, at this point he should have immediately dis-engaged instead of attempting to fight me at my turrets.

randomfightfan.4091:

Ralathar.7236:

Azraeel.1238:

Ralathar.7236:

But even in this extreme situation with everything going my way including the thief being bad, he lives because he can stun break, teleport, condition remove, heal, stealth, and removes all damage conditions within 1 second without stat or trait investment and sacrificing only 1 utility slot.

Actually, to be able to remove the conditions the way you listed, he must trait it.

Hide in Shadows removes all damaging conditions, also the sword shadow return removes a single condition, the utility skill version removes three conditions. No traits needed for any of those.

Imagine if an ele used blink and the channeled heal. That’d be less skills used, more conditions cleared, and more healing. They could even use armor of earth to break the first stun and be immune to all the subsequent stuns and just wreck the turret engi’s life. Even a warrior could stability and immunity through most of that combo, easily destroy the turrets, and most likely destroy the engi. Mesmer could blink away and clear the conditions as well. They’d require a few more skills but it’s a mesmer… it could have killed the engi without ever walking into the turret field. Guardian could also have easily walked into the turret field, stability’d through everything, destroyed everything with gs or hammer, and most likely destroyed that engi (not saying you’re bad, just the build is easily counterable). Just imagine if a grenade engi saw that turret engi. What a field day he’d be having.

So now, why are you singling out thief? What he did wasn’t special. Any class could have done it. You are literly complaining that someone stun broke your stun and cleansed your conditions. That’s not thief specific.

1st off this isn’t “who would have beat my engineer with turrets”. He is not a kitten. He is a useful build that is middle of the line in effectiveness that can be good used well. Countless classes can counter my turrets, like a well necro, that’s why you don’t see people play turret build. This was an example of someone being able to escape a rediculously bad situation easily with no build investment and little utility skill investment. Lets go into this.

The ele example. They literally revolve their whole buld around what you said at that point. Because they are built bunker or at least hybrid and are sacrificing other extremely useful heals for a channeled heal that can be interrupted.

If they used armor of earth or lightning flash (not blink, that’s mesmer), then they would have to choose a tradeoff on both their heal and use 1 or even 2 utility skills dedicated to defense. The channeled heal itself is interrupt-able so without some sort of stability coverage the heal would have significant weaknesses. So not running armor of earth would leave their main heal extremely counter-able, not running lightning flash severely limits their escapability.. So the ele would almost assuredly be running both with that heal choice. Otherwise that is a terrible heal choice.

Also notice that lightning flash is 900 range, not 1,200 like shadow return and that ele has no stealth. Also, unlike the thief version the channel allows the ele to be continually taking damage as it slowly cures 1 condition per pulse, 1 condition every half second to be exact. So at this point that is blind, immobilize, poison, burning, and bleeding. During this time my turrets, being in range on an immobilized target, will still be stacking bleeding and burning and immobilize when I once more get into glue shot range. I really hope the channel doesn’t remove a condition that just got re-applied, the immobilize, or the blind first but instead hits the poison first to save the 33% reduced heal!!

My pistols have 900 range, chances are I could stay inside range to deal damage. My turrets however have 1,100 and 1,300 range. So the outcome of the fight is still rather dicey for an d/d ele once placed in that position. As well when we move out of the range of the turrets I’ll be detonating them and gaining the toolbelt skills that I will immediate use.

Others in that terrible 5% hp, conditioned, locked down situation.
Warrior: In a situation like that the warrior is dead, no question about it.
Guardian: The Guardian in that example is going to be dead without significant build investment.
Mesmer: Really dead lol. Self condition removal not a strong point of Mesmer.
Grenade Engie: All that would be left is a greasy spot.

Believe it or not I am pretty versed in most classes. However, ele is my main.

Azraeel.1238:

Ralathar.7236:

Azraeel.1238:

Ralathar.7236:

But even in this extreme situation with everything going my way including the thief being bad, he lives because he can stun break, teleport, condition remove, heal, stealth, and removes all damage conditions within 1 second without stat or trait investment and sacrificing only 1 utility slot.

Actually, to be able to remove the conditions the way you listed, he must trait it.

Hide in Shadows removes all damaging conditions, also the sword shadow return removes a single condition, the utility skill version removes three conditions. No traits needed for any of those.

Okay, one at a time:
1- Hide in Shadows removes burning, poison, and bleeding. Can’t cure confusions.
2- For the Shadowstep/Shadow Return Utility, he must have initiated it on attack to be able to use the shadow return, otherwise he will end up back next to you. Most thieves use steal as a starter, not waste a utility off the bat.
3- This leaves the shadow return from sword, curing one condition, which isn’t enough.

1. True enough, though honestly once you re stealth how much damage are you going to take from confusion?

2. That’s actually pretty untrue. It’s situational. there are alot of good thieves out there that use it as a safe initiation because you know by the time it fades how well the fight is going to go. D/D commonly uses it to initiate safely. S/D would have no real reason to use it to initiate because it has one built into sword That would matter in this case if not for the immediate stealthing afterwards. D/P laughs at all of the above.

3. See above for S/D. As far as the condition removal from S/D not being enough, why do you need more than HIS for escaping and living honestly? The conditional removal from either Shadow Return is just extra overkill conditional removal on top of the heal. The main thing here is that it ports you up to 1,200 range instantly.

When Im playing my guardian and I meet similar engineers, I pop stability and smash their turrets and beat them to death while they do basically no damage to me. Would you prefer that outcome? Or would you come to the forums and cry that stability and the mass condition removal guardians have is OP and ask for it to be nerfed also?

wish.1027:

When Im playing my guardian and I meet similar engineers, I pop stability and smash their turrets and beat them to death while they do basically no damage to me. Would you prefer that outcome? Or would you come to the forums and cry that stability and the mass condition removal guardians have is OP and ask for it to be nerfed also?

When I meet guardians like that as part of a group I plop flame turret and pulsing blind on them. As they flail ineffectively I place Rocket Turret and Rifle Turret in slightly different locations. The guardian, now covered in bleeds, poisoned by my pistols, burns, and blinded now tries to escape as the team eats him. Upon his stability fading my rocket turret knocks him down ensuring his death.

We can do that kind of thing all day long. But if you guardian was at 5% covered in conditions, immobilzed, and stunned you would have to be 1 of a select few builds to survive. IE you gave up the ability to do alot of others things to do that.

Deamhan.9538:

There was nothing you could’ve done and the thief is the only profession that can do this. That’s why people are all up in arms about them.

Yet the fix is very simple.

Stealth is a very powerful game mechanic, especially when you can pop in and out throughout a fight and while in stealth you have at least half a dozen benefits.

Condition removal
Initiative Regen
+50% movement speed
Hp Regen
The enemy not being able to use any target based skills against you

This isn’t too bad because they heal poorly out of stealth, they can have the 33% movement speed that every other profession can get but no more, people can actually use the bulk of their skills against them, all while they are out of stealth.

The problem? If they are about to lose, they can escape ANY situation they are in no matter how bad it is. Case in point is the OP’s post.

SR should be an ambush skill. For use out of combat only.

HS should be a finishing move, and not another autoattack, so the initiative cost needs an increase.

Make BP a dark field.

LOL, you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. Please, stop trying.

Depends of the ‘get out of jail free button’.

I’ve been spending around 20min trying to instagib some sword / dagger Thief through hard CC spam and sheer Rifle + Static Discharge damage and the only thing I’ve found to succeed is to turn into a bait by reducing my health to 40% and going in hoping for the Thief to be overconfident.

MrForz.1953:

Depends of the ‘get out of jail free button’.

I’ve been spending around 20min trying to instagib some sword / dagger Thief through hard CC spam and sheer Rifle + Static Discharge damage and the only thing I’ve found to succeed is to turn into a bait by reducing my health to 40% and going in hoping for the Thief to be overconfident.

Luckily most thieves really are bad. How many thieves have you seen use sword #2 on another target like a bunny, THEN steal to get a full 1,200 return when they use it? Very few if any, but it’s an easy way to get a full 1,200 range initiation from the normally 600 range move. Throws people off too.

Excalibur.9748:

i can’t even beat other thieves and i’m a thief

lmao.. ditto :S

You can’t counter it. Its the nature of the class. A good player will be able to escape and reset, just as a good guardian should never die to a thief and a good mesmer should win most duels. This kind of complaining can be said for any class, well except warrior haha. I’ve seen plenty of players from all classes escape situations and run from my thief. Being able to reset a fight makes up for a thief’s bad stats and otherwise horrible utilities. If you were take away this escape ability, any average player would just turn around and get one good stun/burst and insta-kill a thief.

Point being thieves need this escape ability and if they were to take it away, I’d expect buffs to stats and better utilities/more useful class ability.

if ur a warrior/guardian u can just run by and ignore them…granted ur in the right build/good player. i just ignore them usually. even on my necro i just drop marks and stuff usually does it. the foolish thing to do is fight a good 1 v 1 class when ur not a good 1 v 1 class. just keep it moving.

Travlane.5948:

if ur a warrior/guardian u can just run by and ignore them…granted ur in the right build/good player. i just ignore them usually. even on my necro i just drop marks and stuff usually does it. the foolish thing to do is fight a good 1 v 1 class when ur not a good 1 v 1 class. just keep it moving.

I feel every class should be able to spec for 1v1s or teamfights as they choose. It’s not right for entire classes to be good at 1v1s or in groups. That’s what traits are for – to decide how you want to play. A warrior or a necro or an engi when specced right should be as good a 1v1 class as any thief and any thief should be as good a team player as a guardian if specced that way.

variety is what keeps the game fresh. any class CAN do 1 v 1….but some are just better than others. its just as in any game. i get what you mean as some are just horrid at 1 v 1 and some are just horrid at large group play. thieves are good at 1 v 1 but pretty horrid at large group play as there is no synergy or group support other than venom share. necros are great at large group play but their 1 v 1 is lacking. really depends what u wanna do or what you find most interesting/fun in the game. everyone wants thieves nerfed bc they are decent at 1 v 1 (not as good as mesmers and tied or just barely better than eles) but no real place in dungeons or large groups.

bhagwad.4281:

Travlane.5948:

if ur a warrior/guardian u can just run by and ignore them…granted ur in the right build/good player. i just ignore them usually. even on my necro i just drop marks and stuff usually does it. the foolish thing to do is fight a good 1 v 1 class when ur not a good 1 v 1 class. just keep it moving.

I feel every class should be able to spec for 1v1s or teamfights as they choose.

They can. All classes have dueling specs. Granted, some are better than others.

Off the top of my head, I can tell you that Phantasm Mesmer is the strongest dueling build, followed by BM ranger and HGH engi. At least, that’s for sPvP.

Wonderer.1790:

You can’t counter it. Its the nature of the class.

This is why when the class ultimately baits more nerfs I will laugh, while you explain that to the devs. Because you think having an uncounterable escape is ok.

Classic! Congratulations on your absolutely biased and selfish way of thinking.

So you are telling us that you used your bunch of skills to smack him around, bring him down to 5% health and then you complain that he used his to get out of that horrid situation? What did you expect? Killing him without any resistence?

What if you actually had won the fight without even losing health? You would have laughed at the thief, who can’t even land a hit on you before you bombed him down and bathed in the glory of your undefeatable class. And unless your class outshines others, you whine…

Also, a turret engineer is not really specced on 1vs1, many classes can chose to not spec 1vs1. But thieves don’t really have any other viable option than focusing on 1vs1. So in a situation you encounter a 1vs1 specialised class with your non-1vs1 specialised class, you still expect to win without even getting a scratch? Get a hold on yourself!

There are generally two approaches to selecting utility skills:
1) Make you more specialized – compliment the build by taking more stuff that furthers your build’s main goals.
2) Make you more well-rounded – counter your builds weaknesses by giving you tactical options for difficult circumstances.

As a general rule you can also design builds to be flexible and able to adapt to a variety of situations, or highly specialized. The flexible builds should have a chance at defeating a variety of opponents, while the specialized builds should have a better chance of defeating a narrower range of opponents, while being vulnerable to others.

What the OP described is a thief who had a skill that helped him to handle a specialized build, not by handily defeating it, but by running away. The OP also listed all of the classes that he easily pwns with his build, and seemed to concede that necros have a right to win or challenge him, but thieves don’t. The problem here as I see it is that the OP used a very specialized tactic, that is in itself overpowered, except for the fact that it has a limited range (which balances it). The thief, seeing that he would not be victorious against this approach, decided to use a general utility skill to get away.

The OP also seemed annoyed that the thief was able to do this after being brought to very low health. What he does not seem to recognize is that it is very simple to bring a thief to low health. Any class can do it, any variety of ways. The goal of the thief is to make sure that the other class is dead before the thief. The challenge for the thief is in knowing how far to push this and how quickly to disengage, lose all of his offensive potential and go on defense. Of course, getting a guardian down to 5% health is a very different story…a guardian at 5% health has likely used all his heals and utilities and is practically ready to die, unless an important skill comes off of cooldown. A good thief at 5%-10% health, on the other hand, is experiencing a somewhat common situation where an escape is urgently required, but that assuming it is effective, the thief will survive. This tends to happen during chained CCs, when skills like shadow-step are particularly useful…is it fair that thieves can do this? Well it’s just as fair as guardians being able to tank through it, while still having a dps. It still leaves thieves with an important defensive option sitting useless on a long cool-down, and therefore being forced to decide whether to re-engage without an escape from CC, or to let both sides reset.

On one hand the enemy Thief did take a utility slot to run away, but on the other hand, Thieves are still in number one place to run away.

You can’t really counter a Shadowstep + stealth in any way short of instantly bursting the Thief down (which doesn’t actually stop him from doing it, if he is fast enough).

It’s no secret that Thieves can usually get away from anything in WvW (because being able to do so in sPvP means you just lose the point). And really, it’s overpowered. I wonder why there are so many roaming Thieves, and that fact has never changed? It must be because all of the roamers are attracted to play this class, not because it’s super good for roaming or anything.

The trade off is that Thieves are kind of bad for zergs and larger fights. I don’t know if it’s Anet’s intention to have this kind of one-sided balancing act going on, but I personally think it’s kind of annoying, both to people who don’t want to roam on a Thief, and to Thieves who may need to join zergs (both of which apply to me :/).

Edit: Important note – I actually think Thieves are not bad in zergs if you play the right way (so no “lol I stealth into the sea of AoE damage and expect to live”) and pick people off at the back. It’s obviously not as easy as ‘spam F and 1 and get loot’ but it’s effective.

bobross.5034:

What he does not seem to recognize is that it is very simple to bring a thief to low health. Any class can do it, any variety of ways.

That really depends on how you build your Thief. If you go glass cannon, it’s the same as anyone else that build glass cannon.

Edit: And to all of you pretending that Thieves are bad in a 1v1, I hope your conscience catches up with you.

bobross.5034:

What the OP described is a thief who had a skill that helped him to handle a specialized build, not by handily defeating it, but by running away. The OP also listed all of the classes that he easily pwns with his build, and seemed to concede that necros have a right to win or challenge him, but thieves don’t. The problem here as I see it is that the OP used a very specialized tactic, that is in itself overpowered, except for the fact that it has a limited range (which balances it). The thief, seeing that he would not be victorious against this approach, decided to use a general utility skill to get away.

Did you even read, 1 on 1 vs good players turret is not competitive. The only thing I did say was ways that other classes could attempt to escape in so dire of a situation and their lack of success. The fact that I am a turret engineer is in fact moot for that.

Shadow Return is not a specialized skill, it is a skill useful for movement, attack, and defense. It is a stun break. It is condition removal. An example of a specialized skill is Scorpion Wire or Elixir C. It’s also not useful vs only my select situation, it’s useful for any bad situation, catching/initiating, mobility, and condition removal.

Of course, getting a guardian down to 5% health is a very different story…a guardian at 5% health has likely used all his heals and utilities and is practically ready to die, unless an important skill comes off of cooldown. A good thief at 5%-10% health, on the other hand, is experiencing a somewhat common situation where an escape is urgently required, but that assuming it is effective, the thief will survive.

This tends to happen during chained CCs, when skills like shadow-step are particularly useful…is it fair that thieves can do this? Well it’s just as fair as guardians being able to tank through it, while still having a dps. It still leaves thieves with an important defensive option sitting useless on a long cool-down, and therefore being forced to decide whether to re-engage without an escape from CC, or to let both sides reset.

.

I take it you’ve never played a glass cannon guardian or a properly built bunker thief. No I don’t mean perma-stealth thief. That is different.

The reason thieves are so squishy is because people build them squishy. One of my thieves is actually a mix of clerics and shamans. Not only am I fairly evasive and have a good amount of survivability, but I have hide in shadows (best heal in the game IMO) and I heal 110 hp per initiative used (Assasin’s Reward). Oh and I can dodge forever with feline grace and perma vigor. Oh, and bountiful theft means I usually grab all sorts of useful boons.

I run shadow refuge and blinding powder with this build as well, both for survivability and giving my allies regen in addition to the fury, might, swiftness, vigor, and stolen boons I am providing them.

So yeah, thieves are not all that squishy. People just play em squishy.

These threads make me /cry because I die all the time and am supposedly OP.

If I die with such an OP class what does that say about my skillz?

Ralathar.7236:

So yeah, thieves are not all that squishy. People just play em squishy.

We’re getting side-tracked a bit here, but sure, you can make a bunker/glass anything…me I like bunkering on my mesmer. Thieves though, even when bunkering require a lot of active defense, as you mentioned – evades, because even a bunker thief doesn’t have the vitality/toughness to take a proper beating.

The reliance on a particularly active defense requires thieves, even bunker thieves to take stun breaks and reset tools…as you mentioned, you use hide in shadows as your heal, not signet of malice…why? because even a bunker thief is vulnerable to spike damage, and occasionally needs to get out of combat.

By the way, I appreciate that you’re taking non-standard builds, and having fun with them…that’s great. I also think it’s great to ask for advice on how to beat a specific skill/tactic. Here, I felt like the tone quickly deteriorated into QQing about how overpowered thieves are for being able to run away.

Ralathar.7236:

Azraeel.1238:

Ralathar.7236:

Azraeel.1238:

Ralathar.7236:

But even in this extreme situation with everything going my way including the thief being bad, he lives because he can stun break, teleport, condition remove, heal, stealth, and removes all damage conditions within 1 second without stat or trait investment and sacrificing only 1 utility slot.

Actually, to be able to remove the conditions the way you listed, he must trait it.

Hide in Shadows removes all damaging conditions, also the sword shadow return removes a single condition, the utility skill version removes three conditions. No traits needed for any of those.

Okay, one at a time:
1- Hide in Shadows removes burning, poison, and bleeding. Can’t cure confusions.
2- For the Shadowstep/Shadow Return Utility, he must have initiated it on attack to be able to use the shadow return, otherwise he will end up back next to you. Most thieves use steal as a starter, not waste a utility off the bat.
3- This leaves the shadow return from sword, curing one condition, which isn’t enough.

1. True enough, though honestly once you re stealth how much damage are you going to take from confusion?

2. That’s actually pretty untrue. It’s situational. there are alot of good thieves out there that use it as a safe initiation because you know by the time it fades how well the fight is going to go. D/D commonly uses it to initiate safely. S/D would have no real reason to use it to initiate because it has one built into sword That would matter in this case if not for the immediate stealthing afterwards. D/P laughs at all of the above.

3. See above for S/D. As far as the condition removal from S/D not being enough, why do you need more than HIS for escaping and living honestly? The conditional removal from either Shadow Return is just extra overkill conditional removal on top of the heal. The main thing here is that it ports you up to 1,200 range instantly.

Do not underestimate confusion, with 5% health left, any skill used is a threat to get downed. In any case, there is nothing wrong in the fight you were talking about. The thief had condition removing skills, your attacks were based on conditions, if he was a good thief, he could have killed you, but considering he wasn’t that good, but not dumb, he was able to escape.

As to all those who keep nagging about how thief can escape without a counter, mesmers can do that pretty well, if not better. So it isn’t a thief exclusive thing.

Ralathar.7236:

Perfect example of how jacked facing a thief is right now. I’m fighting a thief as a turret engie (Ya I know, but it’s fun :P). Hit him a few times and place my turrets as he enters for the kill. Pop my turret abilities and he gets perma-blinded, has like 10 seconds of burning, has 6+ stacks of bleed, Rocket Turret lands the first knockdown, I time the supply crate for the second stun, rocket turret knocks down a third time. All knockdowns in a row without him being able to act after eating the first one.

At this point the thief still has all the burning, bleeding, and now poison on him, is at 5% hp, and is stunned on his back while immobilized. Shadow Return, Hide in Shadows, runs away at half health with no conditions on him already out of combat.
.
.
.
So lets add this up, shadow return removes 3 conditions, teleports you back to where you started from up to 1,200 away, and breaks stun instantly. Hide in Shadows removes all damaging conditions, so any conditions that hurt would be gone and the thief is far away stealthed and running away.

I really don’t know what more I could have done. I condition stacked, immobilized, stunned, and generally wrecked his face but he gets a get out of jail free card. I mean ya I wrecked his face because he was blatantly terrible (rocket turret knockdown is MASSIVELY telegraphed), but he still doesn’t even have to die for being terrible.

Is this in WvW or PvP? Because my answer to your question will vary greatly based on where this occurred.

Either way, I probably will have some degree of good news for you.

Arganthium.5638:

Is this in WvW or PvP? Because my answer to your question will vary greatly based on where this occurred.

Either way, I probably will have some degree of good news for you.

WvW unfortunately. In sPVP scaring him off would indeed be the win that some here claim it was. Same story if I was capturing something and this enabled the cap in WvW. However in other situations of WvW this is most assuredly not a win as such a thief will most likely shortly be killing one of my allies not lucky enough to be able to pull off such a feat.

Ralathar.7236:

Arganthium.5638:

Is this in WvW or PvP? Because my answer to your question will vary greatly based on where this occurred.

Either way, I probably will have some degree of good news for you.

WvW unfortunately. In sPVP scaring him off would indeed be the win that some here claim it was. Same story if I was capturing something and this enabled the cap in WvW. However in other situations of WvW this is most assuredly not a win as such a thief will most likely shortly be killing one of my allies not lucky enough to be able to pull off such a feat.

Yeah, it’s way better in PvP to have an enemy run off like that than in WvW. however, that doesn’t entirely mean it’s unable to be countered.

The best thing to do would be to try and grab a daze or stun on the guy early on and have him burn his teleports and stun breakers. Immobilize, cripple, and chill, for example, are all extremely painful for thieves because we really need that mobility. Typically, for cripple and chill, we don’t use any particularly long-cooldown skills (i.e . Roll For Init or Shadowstep), as those are easily applied conditions. However, immobilize is different in that it can be insanely powerful when used correctly, forcing thieves to get out of a position fast. A lot of the time, that means Shadowstepping away. Also, general CC does all of these things as well.

Here’s an example of a turret build (that I just BS’d :P) that does these things, for example:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQFAUlIqyVntSZF17IxoCMO0jED6FD6xezrfB-TkAg0CnIQShkDJDSSksINuA
(and yeah, it’s PvP, but w/e)

The Rifle provides both immobilizes and knockdown. Net Turret provides more immobilize, as well as 3s immobilize from your belt, and a possible stun too. Thumper turret provides cripple and knockdown. Rocket turret gives you burst (will get to that in a second) and knockdown. Supply Crate gives you a possible stun, but is really good in general for 1v1’ing. Knee Shot gives you cripple with your (many) immobilizes. Hair Trigger gives you more immobilizes and CC more often, and Rifle Mod is just generally good for helping your burst and overall DPS. Inventions… Well, I’m sure you can figure out that. the ability to target-deploy turrets is also nice because it gives you a bit more control over them and where they go, which is very good against thieves. Zerker/ogre runes for burst and DPS, Ice Sigil because chill is extremely good against thieves as well.

Now, the idea behind heavy DPS and burst is one of two things. With high DPS, a thief has to choose between two things when engaging in battle with you: fight or flight. Fleeing will obviously still be an option against you, then, but it’s certainly better than being committed to a fight and having the thief escape when you’re about to win. However, if the thief commits to the fight, then they’ll have to burn up a lot of resources in order to get at you while avoiding being mauled by your DPS. That means more initiative usage, which means less mobility later on, and it also means a higher likelihood of that thief using up their CDs on stuff like heals and Shadowstep in order to get out of your bursting whenever you CC/cripple/chill the thief.

By the time they start getting low, you can just start pulling out the reserves of what resources you have left to destroy the thief. At this point, you’re going to want to burst them so hard that, with their lack of initiative and all of their CD’s, it’s going to be difficult for them to back out of fighting (and even mores when you have so much cripple, chill, and immobilize on them), in which case you’re probably going to down the thief.

Just be careful for Withdraw, it heals all of those condis at once. Still, immobilize and chill in this build last too short to be worth healing off, but last long enough to give some benefits to using them.

Hope that helps.

Arganthium.5638:

Ralathar.7236:

Arganthium.5638:

Is this in WvW or PvP? Because my answer to your question will vary greatly based on where this occurred.

Either way, I probably will have some degree of good news for you.

WvW unfortunately. In sPVP scaring him off would indeed be the win that some here claim it was. Same story if I was capturing something and this enabled the cap in WvW. However in other situations of WvW this is most assuredly not a win as such a thief will most likely shortly be killing one of my allies not lucky enough to be able to pull off such a feat.

Yeah, it’s way better in PvP to have an enemy run off like that than in WvW. however, that doesn’t entirely mean it’s unable to be countered.

The best thing to do would be to try and grab a daze or stun on the guy early on and have him burn his teleports and stun breakers. Immobilize, cripple, and chill, for example, are all extremely painful for thieves because we really need that mobility. Typically, for cripple and chill, we don’t use any particularly long-cooldown skills (i.e . Roll For Init or Shadowstep), as those are easily applied conditions. However, immobilize is different in that it can be insanely powerful when used correctly, forcing thieves to get out of a position fast. A lot of the time, that means Shadowstepping away. Also, general CC does all of these things as well.

Here’s an example of a turret build (that I just BS’d :P) that does these things, for example:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQFAUlIqyVntSZF17IxoCMO0jED6FD6xezrfB-TkAg0CnIQShkDJDSSksINuA
(and yeah, it’s PvP, but w/e)

The Rifle provides both immobilizes and knockdown. Net Turret provides more immobilize, as well as 3s immobilize from your belt, and a possible stun too. Thumper turret provides cripple and knockdown. Rocket turret gives you burst (will get to that in a second) and knockdown. Supply Crate gives you a possible stun, but is really good in general for 1v1’ing. Knee Shot gives you cripple with your (many) immobilizes. Hair Trigger gives you more immobilizes and CC more often, and Rifle Mod is just generally good for helping your burst and overall DPS. Inventions… Well, I’m sure you can figure out that. the ability to target-deploy turrets is also nice because it gives you a bit more control over them and where they go, which is very good against thieves. Zerker/ogre runes for burst and DPS, Ice Sigil because chill is extremely good against thieves as well.

Now, the idea behind heavy DPS and burst is one of two things. With high DPS, a thief has to choose between two things when engaging in battle with you: fight or flight. Fleeing will obviously still be an option against you, then, but it’s certainly better than being committed to a fight and having the thief escape when you’re about to win. However, if the thief commits to the fight, then they’ll have to burn up a lot of resources in order to get at you while avoiding being mauled by your DPS. That means more initiative usage, which means less mobility later on, and it also means a higher likelihood of that thief using up their CDs on stuff like heals and Shadowstep in order to get out of your bursting whenever you CC/cripple/chill the thief.

By the time they start getting low, you can just start pulling out the reserves of what resources you have left to destroy the thief. At this point, you’re going to want to burst them so hard that, with their lack of initiative and all of their CD’s, it’s going to be difficult for them to back out of fighting (and even mores when you have so much cripple, chill, and immobilize on them), in which case you’re probably going to down the thief.

Just be careful for Withdraw, it heals all of those condis at once. Still, immobilize and chill in this build last too short to be worth healing off, but last long enough to give some benefits to using them.

Hope that helps.

While this is all valid and stuff, in my experience a thief just bails if he gets into trouble. If they have to burn shadow step>return they normally don’t return for you until around 50 seconds later or if they are a vengeful kitten they just hover near you and wait for a good opportunity to leech offa the situation.

I’ve had some shadow me for over 5 minutes before after being driven off just to get that kill on me whenever I have to fight something else. Likewise I’ve had some of them try again, and again, and again, and again just to run away every time before eventually things turn out their way.

This sort of behavior is exactly why this kind of escape needs a counter. Because otherwise the thief can just roll the dice till it favors him since the result of it not is just a draw. This is particularly bad with the perma-stealth builds, which also do not have any good counters, especially since a heartseeker can actually hit you and STILL stealth them.

Ralathar.7236:

\
While this is all valid and stuff, in my experience a thief just bails if he gets into trouble. If they have to burn shadow step>return they normally don’t return for you until around 50 seconds later or if they are a vengeful kitten they just hover near you and wait for a good opportunity to leech offa the situation.

I’ve had some shadow me for over 5 minutes before after being driven off just to get that kill on me whenever I have to fight something else. Likewise I’ve had some of them try again, and again, and again, and again just to run away every time before eventually things turn out their way.

This sort of behavior is exactly why this kind of escape needs a counter. Because otherwise the thief can just roll the dice till it favors him since the result of it not is just a draw. This is particularly bad with the perma-stealth builds, which also do not have any good counters, especially since a heartseeker can actually hit you and STILL stealth them.

I’ve lost to engineers 1v1. Well played engineers are my toughest fights in wvw. In spvp they can’t be beaten sometimes. In WVW I have more dps and a chance but the ones I lose too are the ones with lots of knockdowns.

You just need to play better and change your build if you want to fight in open field roaming.

Shadowstep is not the end all be all of a 1v1 as you make it out to be. You are just a bad player, obviously.