Guild Wars 2

Hey guys -

I am looking to play a thief in the manner suggested in the title, and I was hoping to get constructive criticism from the community. I apologise if this is something that has already been discussed on this forum and I have missed it. I know the most common answer that people give on forums is that “you can play whatever the hell you want in PvE” but I would like a bit more specific feedback with regards to runes/traits/stats to make a hybrid build viable.

Here is what I have cooked up on paper:
http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mckzzc0zMMbovoMbovm0xaffcRqozm08070V7kIZ70V7ow270z7ofD7ow270z8ofZ

My inspiration for this build stemmed from the dilemma of having to choose between Executioner Heartseeker/Backstab power builds and condition damage specs. I realise that going pure condition may not be very effective especially for dynamic events where condition caps are reached in record time. Yet going pure damage with dual daggers for just two moves (HS and CnD+BS) did not seem to make sense when the set’s signature evasion move applies more condition damage than physical hurt.

I also felt that the shortbow became a more effective secondary weapon as some condition damage would allow me to lay on more pain with #2 and #4 which are condition based skills. Keeping a good crit+power also would mean good physical damage from #1 and #2 (the large explosion component).

With that preamble out of the way, bear with me as I explain my trait choices:

Critical Strikes – Provides good crit chance, and the much needed crit damage (+30%)

- Since I am still relying on HS+BS+Executioner to deal physical damage, Side Strike along with Keen Observer makes sense.

- Death Blossom and HS spam builds devour initiative hence Signet Use and Opportunist help in the regeneration process to sustain damage.

Shadow Arts + Acrobatics – I know most people would tell me that I should prioritise one or the other because the deeper traits are quite good, but I could not do so since I really wanted the Trickery trait line (will explain the reasons soon). However, I also wanted to maintain some points in both to allow the characteristic untouchability thieves are famous for.

- Cloaked in Shadow works well with CnD and Hide in Shadows to create AoE blinds that would allow my thief to survive damage from multiple sources. Depending on the situation, I could also replace CiS with Slowed Pulse for regen-based sustain.

- Feline Grace allows for 3 dodge rolls, which along with CiS and Expeditious Dodger swiftness makes me evade more. Combining all of these with DB, I could achieve good dodge and combat mobility.

Trickery – The extra bit of condition damage + Kleptomaniac + Preparedness made this trait line impossible to ditch. Increasing the initiative pool means more DB+HS spam.

- Kleptomaniac would also allow me to close gap with runners, and provide the 3 initiative necessary to HS on their turned backs (Side Strike + Executioner + Flanking Strikes + 6xThief Rune bonus) for lethal killing blows.

It’s hard to say how a hybrid would work out. In my pvp/wvw experience, I’ve found that I need to either be able to do enough damage to instantly shut people down or I need the durability/staying power of a full condi build.

I think that a hybrid, while in theory seems like it would be a good blend, would ultimately have difficulty fulfilling either role. I’ve entertained the idea in the past but I always end up going either 25/30/0/15/0 with S/P or S/D in WvW or 10/30/0/30/0.

When I do condi, it’s P/D and full Carrion gear in order to make the condition duration/damage worthwhile.

Blending gear types is a great idea, as I run the ‘standard’ mix of Soldier/Valk/Zerk on my thief, but I’m not sure of the advantages of trying to do everything on one build.

Second post to explain gear choice:

Superior Rune of the Thief is pretty obvious. Given the hybrid nature of this build, it seemed to be the logical choice.

Dagger/Dagger + Shortbow allows for more effective physical damage/condition hybridisation. The idea is to deal both types of damage to lower enemy HP fast below 50% and then spam CnD+BS and HS.

Amulet and Jewels were chosen to provide a decently high crit chance while giving condition damage. They also allow for a good 20k HP pool which I think I need till I get better at dodging and evading damage. I personally do not see a huge mistake in my Amulet and Jewel choices yet, as if I were running a pure power/crit build, I would arrive at 20k HP with 3.4k attack damage and 61% crit. The reduction in power and crit is well made up for by the extra condition damage which is not mitigated by armor. [Yes before you ask, I did put a Berserker instead of a Rampager in the middle deliberately and not by mistake. The extra 125 power seemed better than another 2% crit and 75 condition damage.]

So there you go guys. Feel free to critique/comment. I welcome constructive feedback. Even if you want to flame me as a noob/kitten/whatever, it is fine as long as you suggest improvement. Also feel free to tell me if you think this build is total crap and I should not even be bothering to make it viable in PvE/WvW, with reasons too.

Thanks for your consideration -

I think you’ll be a dead thief.
Few regeneration, few mobility, almost no condition remover.
when your roll for initiative is in CD you are done.
You can’t instagib 1v1 and you can’t resist 1vX …
Maybe i’m wrong but i don’t think it is a good build.

Alright guys, your replies are much appreciated. I will play both pure damage and condition builds, and ultimately decide which one I would prefer to stick to more.

Thanks for the prompt responses.

So several things, the traits you chose for Trickery, Acrobatics, and SA, aren’t going to help you at all in PvE or WvW.

For SA – Change to Shadow’s Embrace (IV). You need that condition removal.
For Acrobatics – Change that to Power of Intertia (II). Might on Dodge > 50% damage reduction/stealth on fall.
For Trickery – Change it to Thrill of the Crime (V).

I created a hybrid Condition/Precision thief. My build is not like yours:

10/0/30/15/15. I was D/D // SB (or P/P). Armor was all Carrion, Accessories was all Rabid. I was still able to deal 100 base bleeds and BackStab Crit up to 3K at times (with might buffs).

My advice to you, put more into Shadow Arts and less into Critical Strikes.

0/20/0/30/20

Mix and matched rampager, knights, soldiers, apoth/carrion stuff.

Dd and sb. No stealth aside from cnd backstab.

Rfi, withdraw, signet of agi, open last util and elite.

Get good at dodging and evades.

17-19K hp, 2.9-3.2atk, 2200-2400 armor, 50-60cd, 37-52 crit, 380-520condition.

@Suralin – Your advice regarding Shadow Arts>Critical strikes is noted. It would seem Selver is suggesting the same with his 0/20/0/30/20.

@Selver – I have one question: how do you deal with conditions being placed on you? You did not seem to suggest any condition removal mechanism in your build. The reason I considered H-i-Shadow was because the heal came with stealth and condition removal.

Thanks to both for your contribution -

Sig of agi is a single and aoe condi cleanse. I have 0 SA. Though if conditions bother you, a stealth util or two, plus 10 in sa(clean on stealth every 3s, twice with 15sa.). Fixes that. Also, melandru runes for expense of other stat points, or -% condi food.

It works well, for 1v1 and 2, but needs to on toes, and people cant shout culling or hax when i outplay. Can zerg surf but will generally die unless supported since zero stealth aside from cnd

Edit: grammar/spelling/structure – it’s early and im on a phone…
And more on sig of agi: it only cleans one. Save it for big /long stacked bleeds and burns. Evades, Rfi, withdraw, should keep you good to wait out others to tick off(sb thief, other poisoners can be rough if they apply smartly). Dont forget sig also boosts 100 energy, so always burn your 2/3 dodges before use.

Condi/Crit hybrid is a nice idea basically, but the problem is the initiative system. If we were a cooldown based class, having every skill deal 0.75 times the damage it would do if we are specialised would add up nicely, so in the end you would have 1.5x the effectiveness.

However, because all of our skills use the same initiative, going hybrid reduces the effectiveness of each skill’s damage/initiative to 70-80%(depends on skill and build). In case of DB it’s not that annoying since it will deal decent damage on crits as well and that replaces the missing Cond Damage somewhat, but CnD-BS combo will deal a lot less damage than it otherwise would(2-3k less).

With a hybrid thief, you give up a lot of burst potential for some DoT effectiveness or the other way around. If you are good, this tradeoff can be quite good in the end, since you “only” lose about 50-60% critical damage and 600-700 condition damage compared to spec builds but you have 17.4k life. You can trade off some vit for thoughness if you replace Carrion with Rabid (also some power for precision) but I think it’s not really worth investing too much into thoughness in armor. Conditions ignore it, and it’s not a flat value but a divider that gets less good the more armor you have. If you can’t get your thoughness to +300 or more you won’t really feel the improvement.

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.3|8.1o.a7.8.1o.h9|5.1h.h2|1h.7l.1h.7l.1h.7l.1h.7l.1h.7l.1h.7l|1h.62.1h.62.1g.61.1g.61.1g.61.1g.61|0.u63c.p46.f2.0|31.e|57.5o.5e.5h.5v|e

This is a somewhat more realistic calculation of your stats, unlike the GW2DB calculator. This one works in WvW and PvE, and the numbers seem to be where they should be.

What you get by this tradeoff is flexibility, but imho we should leave that for eles who are as good in all traits at the same time as specced characters in the same, especially D/D bunkers (oh I hate them sooooo much).

wanted to show a few screenies of the build/stats I am using.

another note on condi removal – the superior sigil of generosity. 60% chance on crit to send a condition to your target (10sec ICD). the food is -40% Lemongrass Poultry Soup-is also +70Vit.

this is with the 0/20/0/30/20
in crit strikes I use the +7% crit when attacking from side or back, I use the %crit to vitality as well, but it’s open to change.

in acro I nab vigor on heal, hard to catch, and might on dodge. I generally swap out the might for the fall damage trait, or something else.

In trickery it’s boonrip+vigor on steal, and open, generally caltrops for more dodge shenanigans/bleed spreading, but they are lackluster in comparison the utility that I have no room for generally

edit: I am still switching gears around and finding the optimal home for me on stats, but so far it’s very fun, and even without the stealths (aside from a few CnD’s), it’s effective provided they don’t just run the assist train on you with spammed immobilizes (but that’s gonna kill us no matter the spec).

Hey thanks for your input Kanadaj – and yea I came across that calculator recently too; it’s pretty neat.

Once again I appreciate the detailed response from you Selver. The more I read it the more sense it seems to make. I guess I was just so hung up on Executioner BS/HS that I didn’t feel like going anything other than 30 Critical Strikes. But I can see how that might kitten me somewhat.

I am a large advocate of hk and executioner, though excellent use of a certain sigil can make hk a wasred trait, but i use them in more burst builds. Good ol 10/30/30 with sd is grand with e ecutioner. I just like dancing, anddont like people hating me because i stealth.