Guild Wars 2

So Ill start out by saying I do not play thief as my main and play a Warrior. I was playing WvW today and came across two thieves, both in the same guild. I had fought thieves before so I knew to be somewhat cautious. They were both pretty far away and I was in a group of people. So here is what they did (and I fought them both a few times, one was much better than the other).

The good thief (playing as a human) would be really far away and then would invis himself and run up to me. He would start attacking while invisible and continue to stay invisible will still attacking. He was wielding two daggers. This guy would literally kill me within a few second (maybe 5-6 seconds) while being invisible the full time. I fought this guy a few times and the only time I could win was by getting a few of my teammates to attack him, but even then he would go into invisibility repeatedly. I tried interrupting him with some of my skills, but everytime I used them, he would either invis himself instantly or appeared to not be effected by it.

Now, Im a level 80 Warrior with pretty much the best gear you can get in the game. I have 25k health and a decent amount of toughness and I have never been downed this fast unless Im killed by a large group of people.

So after this, I decided to go onto my level 25 thief and hopped into PvP where I had access to all the skills. I read through every single skill, weapon ability, and trait the thief could use and attempted to copy the build this thief was running. When I went into the first game of PvP, I quickly noticed you cannot stay invisible while attacking and I could not get close to killing people that quickly while invisible. I could spam heartseeker, but I do not believe this guy was using heartseeker (unless he was using it while invisible).

So my question is this: How did the guy do it? Am I missing something here? I am genuinely curious about this and would like to understand what is going on…

I do not want to accuse of using hacks or complaining about the thieves or anything, I just want some answers…

GW2 has terrible culling
bad thieves are abusing it unknowingly, and they think they’re good

There’s a general issue with the game’s engine where the thief won’t appear on your screen even when they’re out of stealth on their end.

This applies to a lot of things, especially in WvW, where whole zergs might not appear until it’s too late. It’s called Player Culling.

and he probably used the backstab burst build.

This is quite simple. He’s using his heal to stealth himself, knowing full well he probably won’t need it.

He pops Hide in Shadows, his #6 heal ability, which stealths him, he then opens with a backstab using his #1 ability, which is different if he is stealthed. he then pops Cloak and Dagger, vanishing from view again, then repeating backstab.

He can chain his stealths together with 2 seconds between them and with the proper build he can do this almost continuously with very little initiative lost.

He’s not only a “good” thief, he’s very aware of his stealth cooldowns and timings and chains his stealths together to keep himself alive.

Rockstar.5429:

This is quite simple. He’s using his heal to stealth himself, knowing full well he probably won’t need it.

He pops Hide in Shadows, his #6 heal ability, which stealths him, he then opens with a backstab using his #1 ability, which is different if he is stealthed. he then pops Cloak and Dagger, vanishing from view again, then repeating backstab.

He can chain his stealths together with 2 seconds between them and with the proper build he can do this almost continuously with very little initiative lost.

He’s not only a “good” thief, he’s very aware of his stealth cooldowns and timings and chains his stealths together to keep himself alive.

There is already a mechanic in place to prevent true chain stealth. As the people above you have mentioned, he was likely exploiting the fact that character models don’t immediately load when stealth drops to truly have 100 % untargetable uptime, while skill assists in this, it is the failure of the game engine that truly makes it powerful.

You’re positive this isn’t a lag issue on your end, and it’s definitely a game engine issue?

Rockstar.5429:

You’re positive this isn’t a lag issue on your end, and it’s definitely a game engine issue?

Absolutely. Player culling in high-population situations is a well documented issue that isn’t client-specific. Haven’t you ever wondered why sometimes you’ll run upto the trade post in Lion’s Arch and it’ll look totally empty for 3/4 seconds before an entire mob of players fade into view? Or surely you’ve been running around in WvW and suddenly seen a zerg materialize deep inside your clip plane. This couple seconds it takes for models to load completely covers the stealth downtime and allows one to attack from stealth and restealth before they are visible. Some times I quick tab target will allow you to attack the targetable-but-unloaded model, but this is not always the case.

before speaking of culling we should ask how many players were in that area … if there were 10ppl it could not be the culling issue.

I should mention that the thief is targetable during culling, tab select is your friend,

prob running the burst back stab build, stealth, steal to close the distance followed by the 5th skill on the d/d build forget what its called to put him back into stleath, all the while hitting you with back stabs for 9 – 18k also the server usually takes a second or two to load him back on your screen after he’s left stealth so it could seem like he was staying in stealth even when popping out then back in 3 seconds later

I guess the post is a little buried now but the thief was almost certainly using a variant of the Jinzu backstab build:

“Opener: Your opener, should always be Basilisk Venom => Skale Venom => Cloak and Dagger => Steal (during the animation of CnD) (This part is key, as the steal will stun them via Basilisk Venom preventing their escape in that 1 second) => Assassin’s Signet => Backstab. If you mess up the timing, you will get the Assassin’s Signet to trigger off of Steal or Cloak and Dagger. THIS IS OK! They do massive damage as it is! In the video, you’ll see one where I hit Cloak and Dagger for 11k! Optionally, but HIGHLY recommended, use HASTE before Assassin’s Signet (it seems like the buff from Assassin’s Signet goes away when you use haste after it, so use it before). This basically makes it so most classes just don’t survive a few hits after your opener. If this is done right, you will have TEN STACKS of might, and 2 stacks of vulnerability before you even hit them with backstab.”

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Jinzu-s-Burst-Backstab-Build/first#post233234

In addition to all that damage in the quote , the spec gives steal a 5k (on crit) “mug,” and combined with the haste signet, in one second will deal a massive amount of damage. You almost certainly did not see that thief do anyone than run away after he killed you (the opener above takes about 45 seconds to reset).

Aeden.5896:

I guess the post is a little buried now but the thief was almost certainly using a variant of the Jinzu backstab build:

“Opener: Your opener, should always be Basilisk Venom => Skale Venom => Cloak and Dagger => Steal (during the animation of CnD) (This part is key, as the steal will stun them via Basilisk Venom preventing their escape in that 1 second) => Assassin’s Signet => Backstab. If you mess up the timing, you will get the Assassin’s Signet to trigger off of Steal or Cloak and Dagger. THIS IS OK! They do massive damage as it is! In the video, you’ll see one where I hit Cloak and Dagger for 11k! Optionally, but HIGHLY recommended, use HASTE before Assassin’s Signet (it seems like the buff from Assassin’s Signet goes away when you use haste after it, so use it before). This basically makes it so most classes just don’t survive a few hits after your opener. If this is done right, you will have TEN STACKS of might, and 2 stacks of vulnerability before you even hit them with backstab.”

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Jinzu-s-Burst-Backstab-Build/first#post233234

In addition to all that damage in the quote , the spec gives steal a 5k (on crit) “mug,” and combined with the haste signet, in one second will deal a massive amount of damage. The thief almost certainly ran away after he killed you (the opener above takes about 45 seconds to reset).

I guess the post is a little buried now but the thief was almost certainly using a variant of the Jinzu backstab build:

“Opener: Your opener, should always be Basilisk Venom => Skale Venom => Cloak and Dagger => Steal (during the animation of CnD) (This part is key, as the steal will stun them via Basilisk Venom preventing their escape in that 1 second) => Assassin’s Signet => Backstab. If you mess up the timing, you will get the Assassin’s Signet to trigger off of Steal or Cloak and Dagger. THIS IS OK! They do massive damage as it is! In the video, you’ll see one where I hit Cloak and Dagger for 11k! Optionally, but HIGHLY recommended, use HASTE before Assassin’s Signet (it seems like the buff from Assassin’s Signet goes away when you use haste after it, so use it before). This basically makes it so most classes just don’t survive a few hits after your opener. If this is done right, you will have TEN STACKS of might, and 2 stacks of vulnerability before you even hit them with backstab.”

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Jinzu-s-Burst-Backstab-Build/first#post233234

In addition to all that damage in the quote , the spec gives steal a 5k (on crit) “mug,” and combined with the haste signet, in one second will deal a massive amount of damage. The thief almost certainly ran away after he killed you (the opener above takes about 45 seconds to reset).

@Diviner
The thieves that you were fighting yesterday are my Guildies. The human one is using a cloak and dagger spec and he is incredibly good at his character. He typically ninja rezzes any downed people in the middle of groups of enemies and is near impossible to kill. The person above that outlined the cloak and dagger spec was correct. You’re just dealing with a thief that knows how to use all of his abilities very well nothing fishy going on. For the record he’s using 30/30/10 on the spec.

@Diviner, i was the human thief from the other night, Sora Arc-Blackgate. To answer peoples questions, i pretty much start out with hide in shadows, open with a backstab, use my #1 ability x3 by then i can stealth again, use cloak and dagger…..rinse and repeat. I also have 30 points in shadow art (15 points gives you 1 second of added stealth). Also Diviner you are correct, i dont use heartseeker.

this is a lag issue that only effects WvW. there are no Thief Stealth mechanics that allow for more than a single attack from stealth and every attack from Stealth prevents a Thief from re-entering Stealth with the “revealed” condition, which lasts for about 2 seconds.

A similar thing happens to me about 70% of the time. Any character with available stealth (mesmer/thief) are litteraly invisible to me for great portions of a fight (talking 10-15seconds). Just 20 minutes ago my team and I was fighting what seemed to be 3 players on my screen, yet I took dmg from unknown sources. While kiting around for bout 10s, suddenly a mesmer and his 3 clones appear, plus a thief. But the thief seems to be phasing in and out of stealth at completely random intervalls(this by walking normaly, not even attacking) , the mesmer not as much. Now I have played thief alot myself and I am familiar with their stealth skills, and this is not just thiefs with impeccable stealth-skill timing, everyone and anyone does this, be it pistol, sword, or shortbow thiefs. This might be rendering problems, but I have no idea wether the problem is on my end or on the client’s. Could also be lag I guess, but I doubt 70% all thiefs have 64k modems. This is a huge issue to me, and makes the game really unenjoyable. Im playing spvp btw.

31:00 minutes in is where he shows the build in pvp.

this is one of the best pvp videos you will ever watch. its also one of the most informative video you will find on dagger/dagger builds.

You don’t need to target anyone to do damage. Stop thinking you have to target to do damage. This is not WoW. You can cast all abilities without the need of targeting. If you know the Thief is around, why are you not swinging. Pay attention to your auto-attack chain skills, if the Thief is stealth the chain still continues, so you can ‘know’ where he is. Yes it’s like fighting an invisible man sometimes, you just have to know how to counter his mechanic, just as you have to counter everyone else’s. Just like fighting a Mesmer, 1/3rd of the time you have to sit there and do nothing to avoid killing yourself with Confusion, for a Thief you have to watch your own bar for hits and even unleash burst when the chain auto-attack starts to increment.

I may soon add L2P in my signature and post blank posts to respond!

Cloak & Dagger, by the way, you can have small periods of un-stealth because the 3 second cooldown just happens to be the exact length of an autoattack chain for the Thief. So as soon as Lotus Strike is casting, he preps C&D, and goes Stealth a second later. 3-4 seconds Stealth, Backstab, 2 seconds autoattack, 1 second cast on C&D, and restealth. 3 in, 3 out, repeat for as long as you have initiative.

You can also sit there and C&D a single target, timing the next attack to hit right after the Stealth fades. Not too efficient use of Init, but works for keeping full Stealth.

My strong recommendation for anyone fighting this kind of Thief is to never stop attacking, and gain some distance. If he has no target to hit, he has a much harder time using Stealth.

“Cloak & Dagger, by the way, you can have small periods of un-stealth because the 3 second cooldown just happens to be the exact length of an autoattack chain for the Thief. So as soon as Lotus Strike is casting, he preps C&D, and goes Stealth a second later. 3-4 seconds Stealth, Backstab, 2 seconds autoattack, 1 second cast on C&D, and restealth. 3 in, 3 out, repeat for as long as you have initiative.

You can also sit there and C&D a single target, timing the next attack to hit right after the Stealth fades. Not too efficient use of Init, but works for keeping full Stealth.

My strong recommendation for anyone fighting this kind of Thief is to never stop attacking, and gain some distance. If he has no target to hit, he has a much harder time using Stealth."

Im using a similiar build (not jinzus, i used it way before this guy posted his one, mine doesnt rely on the opener that much too) and ur tactic wont really work since you get blinded everytime the thief restealthes (and you do that a lot with this build)… most of ur attacks will go nowhere…

To the threadstarter: Kite him. Pretty much the only thing that will work is too kite him, he cannot go back into stealth if he cannot get near you. And if he cannot get back into stealth he cannot backstab. His build → fawked.

Blind only works on one attack…. waste that on an auto-attack, then burst when you know he’s in front of you. Not sure the issue here. To keep his Stealth, the Thief needs to wait ~3 seconds before using Backstab, to maintain Initiative regeneration. Then 3 seconds Reveal. Unless he is using C&D only and no other skill, at which point, you could self-heal that weak damage all day. So you have ~6 seconds between blinds from him going Stealth. Use it.

Don’t kite, you can’t kite a Thief. He’s saving his Steal for when you kite. Be aggressive, the best way to kill a Thief regardless of build is aggression.