Guild Wars 2

Our unique mechanics as thief are initiative, stealth attacks, dual attacks and stolen skills (steal itself is not unique as it’s just a teleport). I would argue that stealth itself is a core thief mechanic, as it controls our access to stealth attacks and we rely on it heavily to survive, deal damage, and control fights. Obviously stealth isn’t unique to thief, but we are the only class so heavily reliant on it. Not even dodging can mitigate our need for stealth. Daredevil is another story, but as a core thief, it’s stealth or die.

With this in mind, how would other classes react if there were multiple ways to completely deny them a mechanic they desperately need? Engineers have lock on and scrapper now gets another stealth denial. Imagine a skill that destroyed enemy mesmer illusions and prevented them from making more for 8 seconds. Or giving a necro a debuff that locked them out of deathshroud, prevent an ele from attunement swapping etc.

The only other class that has issues like this is ranger, since pets are killable. They can at least heal them or pet swap though. We have no good way to handle 8 seconds of reveal (or more in the case of wvw traps) other than hope to run away, but that is really not an adequate response. We ought to have some way to mitigate these situations. Either a way to remove reveal or protection/something else when revealed.

TL;DR enemy reveals are basically a “nope” button against thieves. We need counterplay.

I’m pretty certain that engineers aren’t going to be running their AoE reveal (just as they don’t run lock on). I certainly won’t run it. It’s an elite skill that also gives stealth while keeping the drone that provides the stealth visible and (presumably) targetable. No thanks, I’ll keep running Elixir X or (Mortar) (depending) on the situation.

Edit: worthless, oversensitive filter…

Anyways, there are things that shut down profession mechanics. Pets still run into walls for ten seconds straight and get stuck on broken ground, and die easily to AoE and even easier to focused attacks. And guess what? They aren’t locked out of it for eight seconds, but for a whole lot longer (up to sixty seconds). Death Shroud can be countered easily with moa form. Pets and DS are both far more central to their respective professions than stealth is to a thief.

So, to address your concerns, I don’t think revealed will be a problem and, if it is, the source of the problem will not be the engineer/scrapper. I think that a bigger concern is the arrival of multiple stunbreaks (which also give other benefits) on a 10 second cooldown. That reeks of excessive power creep.

Wow, we get moa to use vs deathshroud? Awesome!!
And to say many thief builds aren’t as reliant on stealth as a necro is on DS, you are sorely mistaken.

Zodryn, point is simple: If hard counters for a skill set is okay for us, other classes should get the same treatment. I’d be all for getting an ability that removes other classes godmode (invulnerability) for example.

Fairs fair right?

Unholy Pillager.3791:

I’m pretty certain that engineers aren’t going to be running their AoE reveal (just as they don’t run lock on). I certainly won’t run it. It’s an elite skill that also gives stealth while keeping the drone that provides the stealth visible and (presumably) targetable. No thanks, I’ll keep running Elixir X or (Mortar) (depending) on the situation.

Whether or not you run it is anecdotal, will others run it? It’s also highly susceptible to change, will it be run when there’s a meta shift?

More importantly, it doesn’t really matter who runs it – what matters is the design philosophy behind it. I said all this when they added stealth reveal traps in WvW, then again when they added reveal to ranger, and again when it was added to utlitiy goggles – hardcountering a classes mechanics is extremely poor design. It shows a lack of creativity and understanding from the development team. At this point, it’s a pretty clear indicator of how Anet plans on “balancing” stealth (and by extension thieves)for the lifetime of the game.

evilapprentice.6379:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

I’m pretty certain that engineers aren’t going to be running their AoE reveal (just as they don’t run lock on). I certainly won’t run it. It’s an elite skill that also gives stealth while keeping the drone that provides the stealth visible and (presumably) targetable. No thanks, I’ll keep running Elixir X or (Mortar) (depending) on the situation.

Whether or not you run it is anecdotal, will others run it? It’s also highly susceptible to change, will it be run when there’s a meta shift?

More importantly, it doesn’t really matter who runs it – what matters is the design philosophy behind it. I said all this when they added stealth reveal traps in WvW, then again when they added reveal to ranger, and again when it was added to utlitiy goggles – hardcountering a classes mechanics is extremely poor design. It shows a lack of creativity and understanding from the development team. At this point, it’s a pretty clear indicator of how Anet plans on “balancing” stealth (and by extension thieves)for the lifetime of the game.

Using the same train of thought, hard counters only affect those who runs stealth, but not all Thief.

Why is Warrior ShoutBow is popular? It’s because we hard counter them in melee with blind — thus denying (on hindering) them their Adrenaline mechanic.

Heck we can even make an argument that because of stealth, the Thief can deny everybody else from using their mechanic on the Thief. You can’t really do anything to something you cannot see.

My point is, the premise of this discussion can be argued in many ways for which the direction of it will go no where.

evilapprentice.6379:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

I’m pretty certain that engineers aren’t going to be running their AoE reveal (just as they don’t run lock on). I certainly won’t run it. It’s an elite skill that also gives stealth while keeping the drone that provides the stealth visible and (presumably) targetable. No thanks, I’ll keep running Elixir X or (Mortar) (depending) on the situation.

Whether or not you run it is anecdotal, will others run it? It’s also highly susceptible to change, will it be run when there’s a meta shift?

More importantly, it doesn’t really matter who runs it – what matters is the design philosophy behind it. I said all this when they added stealth reveal traps in WvW, then again when they added reveal to ranger, and again when it was added to utlitiy goggles – hardcountering a classes mechanics is extremely poor design. It shows a lack of creativity and understanding from the development team. At this point, it’s a pretty clear indicator of how Anet plans on “balancing” stealth (and by extension thieves)for the lifetime of the game.

It isn’t anecdotal that almost nobody runs lock on. It competes with streamlined kits, and permanent swiftness wins. As for the elite, it won’t be used in sPvP because stealth prevents point capture and because there are better options for an engineer elite than stealth.

Edit: I agree that it could become a problem if many professions gain access to it, but I don’t see that happening right now. The only possibility is if rangers get it with druid, since everything else has been revealed.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Heck we can even make an argument that because of stealth, the Thief can deny everybody else from using their mechanic on the Thief. You can’t really do anything to something you cannot see.

Would be so great if that were true.
But unfortunately my I WIN button of stealth being immune to damage seems to have broken, and has never worked. Attitudes like YOURS is what got thieves nerfed in the first dam place. Stealth is not godmode, has never been and has since BETA always had counters. Now we just get to see more for some dam reason.

AoE & cleave make it extremely easy to hit a stealthed anything, and that includes all classes with access to the mechanic of stealth. The big difference, other classes with access don’t crumple like spun sugar to a single hit unless they are pure berserker. For a thief, you can be built with some survival ability in mind (Extra Sta, and toughness…you know those stats most other classes forgot about cause they don’t need em), it doesn’t change the out come very often for the thief unless you play perfectly, opponent makes multiple mistakes or both. Hardly the pinnacle of balance.

And yes, I’m bitter with the current state of thief.
And every thief player should be at this point.

I’m fine with people getting reveal access, but right now we have no response. If I destroy a mesmers illusions, I am slightly denying him a very important mechanic, but he can instantly make more. If I got lock on or disruptor trapped, I just have to wait 8-30s without enough dodge access (that’s dd domain now) and no other active defenses as the squishiest class in the game. No other class ever has to face a similar situation.

Zodryn.4216:

I’m fine with people getting reveal access, but right now we have no response. If I destroy a mesmers illusions, I am slightly denying him a very important mechanic, but he can instantly make more. If I got lock on or disruptor trapped, I just have to wait 8-30s without enough dodge access (that’s dd domain now) and no other active defenses as the squishiest class in the game. No other class ever has to face a similar situation.

Necro used to somewhat shroud was easy to push to the side. Thief is the new necro.

Zodryn.4216:

I’m fine with people getting reveal access, but right now we have no response. If I destroy a mesmers illusions, I am slightly denying him a very important mechanic, but he can instantly make more. If I got lock on or disruptor trapped, I just have to wait 8-30s without enough dodge access (that’s dd domain now) and no other active defenses as the squishiest class in the game. No other class ever has to face a similar situation.

It depends. In a 1v1, you could stick to them with shadow shot and use black powder for the blind field, interrupting anything that’s too nasty when they’re not blinded. Otherwise, shadow step, wait a couple seconds behind an obstruction, then shadow step back and continue. Remember, thieves have extraordinarily good access not only to stealth and mobility, but to blindness and interrupts as well.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Zodryn.4216:

I’m fine with people getting reveal access, but right now we have no response. If I destroy a mesmers illusions, I am slightly denying him a very important mechanic, but he can instantly make more. If I got lock on or disruptor trapped, I just have to wait 8-30s without enough dodge access (that’s dd domain now) and no other active defenses as the squishiest class in the game. No other class ever has to face a similar situation.

It depends. In a 1v1, you could stick to them with shadow shot and use black powder for the blind field, interrupting anything that’s too nasty when they’re not blinded. Otherwise, shadow step, wait a couple seconds behind an obstruction, then shadow step back and continue. Remember, thieves have extraordinarily good access not only to stealth and mobility, but to blindness and interrupts as well.

Replace “thieves” with “d/p”.

Sagat.3285:

Replace “thieves” with “d/p”.

This made me giggle.
You know it’s bad when the only comments given that is even remotely “thought out” apply to a specific weapon set only, and the need for “something to hide behind”.

Holy crap, we are hosed.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

I’m pretty certain that engineers aren’t going to be running their AoE reveal (just as they don’t run lock on). I certainly won’t run it. It’s an elite skill that also gives stealth while keeping the drone that provides the stealth visible and (presumably) targetable. No thanks, I’ll keep running Elixir X or (Mortar) (depending) on the situation.

Whether or not you run it is anecdotal, will others run it? It’s also highly susceptible to change, will it be run when there’s a meta shift?

More importantly, it doesn’t really matter who runs it – what matters is the design philosophy behind it. I said all this when they added stealth reveal traps in WvW, then again when they added reveal to ranger, and again when it was added to utlitiy goggles – hardcountering a classes mechanics is extremely poor design. It shows a lack of creativity and understanding from the development team. At this point, it’s a pretty clear indicator of how Anet plans on “balancing” stealth (and by extension thieves)for the lifetime of the game.

Using the same train of thought, hard counters only affect those who runs stealth, but not all Thief.

Why is Warrior ShoutBow is popular? It’s because we hard counter them in melee with blind — thus denying (on hindering) them their Adrenaline mechanic.

Heck we can even make an argument that because of stealth, the Thief can deny everybody else from using their mechanic on the Thief. You can’t really do anything to something you cannot see.

My point is, the premise of this discussion can be argued in many ways for which the direction of it will go no where.

Yeah, no.

Comparing what blind does to a warriors adrenaline generation to an effect that locks out an entire trait line and a class mechanic is ridiculous – they aren’t even remotely comparable, and you should know that.

For it to be comparable, blind would have to read “Target loses all adrenaline and cannot gain adrenaline for 4s”, and they’d also have to have an entire traitline where every minor trait and worthwhile major trait revolved around generating/using adrenaline. Edit: Oh, and also once hit with blind there’s no way to cleanse the “no adrenaline” effects, you just have to wait it out.

I’m not sure why you’d ever bother to post that, or the unrelated scenarios that followed it.

Sagat.3285:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Zodryn.4216:

I’m fine with people getting reveal access, but right now we have no response. If I destroy a mesmers illusions, I am slightly denying him a very important mechanic, but he can instantly make more. If I got lock on or disruptor trapped, I just have to wait 8-30s without enough dodge access (that’s dd domain now) and no other active defenses as the squishiest class in the game. No other class ever has to face a similar situation.

It depends. In a 1v1, you could stick to them with shadow shot and use black powder for the blind field, interrupting anything that’s too nasty when they’re not blinded. Otherwise, shadow step, wait a couple seconds behind an obstruction, then shadow step back and continue. Remember, thieves have extraordinarily good access not only to stealth and mobility, but to blindness and interrupts as well.

Replace “thieves” with “d/p”.

And replace “elementalists” with “d/d cele”, and replace necromancer with “cele d/w+staff”…I’m sorry that you have one weapon set which is significantly more powerful than any other. Until they do something useful with d/d, it isn’t going to be competitive in sPvP. Skills 3 and 4 are just blatantly inferior, and skill 5, while more efficient for stealthing in combat, is far less versatile. I play thief a fair amount myself and, while it isn’t my main, I do enjoy it.

Xovian.8572:

This made me giggle.
You know it’s bad when the only comments given that is even remotely “thought out” apply to a specific weapon set only, and the need for “something to hide behind”.

Holy crap, we are hosed.

It applies to the weapon set that is actually efficient in sPvP. If I were giving advice to necromancers, I would not aim it toward axe or scepter, because they are both inferior in sPvP.

Why are you complaining that the advice you get is ‘reset the fight’? It’s exactly the advice I would give to an ele who is caught unprepared by a thief. If you have a serious disadvantage, you reset the fight in a way that works to your advantage. On any class. The difference here is that thieves can reset a fight far more easily than most other professions.

Nah other weapons changes in work were mentioned for necro “he who knows his name” also has ele. All he did was coming up with a 2.0 version of purity of pistols, dodging the UP and stupid traits in Acro, ignoring his act of gutting SA for everything but d/p which is already superior, nothing on those new traits for condi thief etc. He’s more focused on selling DD and the other two.

I know it’s a team effort but he represents them so he gets the “what is bound to come”. Just criticism no personal hate 3 more years to go ;.

Edit: Even war is possibly seeing more diversity even if not complete, revenant as well,mesmer is okay, engi fine ranger sees all it’s just the class, guard sees all, thief has d/p.

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

I’m pretty certain that engineers aren’t going to be running their AoE reveal (just as they don’t run lock on). I certainly won’t run it. It’s an elite skill that also gives stealth while keeping the drone that provides the stealth visible and (presumably) targetable. No thanks, I’ll keep running Elixir X or (Mortar) (depending) on the situation.

Whether or not you run it is anecdotal, will others run it? It’s also highly susceptible to change, will it be run when there’s a meta shift?

More importantly, it doesn’t really matter who runs it – what matters is the design philosophy behind it. I said all this when they added stealth reveal traps in WvW, then again when they added reveal to ranger, and again when it was added to utlitiy goggles – hardcountering a classes mechanics is extremely poor design. It shows a lack of creativity and understanding from the development team. At this point, it’s a pretty clear indicator of how Anet plans on “balancing” stealth (and by extension thieves)for the lifetime of the game.

Using the same train of thought, hard counters only affect those who runs stealth, but not all Thief.

Why is Warrior ShoutBow is popular? It’s because we hard counter them in melee with blind — thus denying (on hindering) them their Adrenaline mechanic.

Heck we can even make an argument that because of stealth, the Thief can deny everybody else from using their mechanic on the Thief. You can’t really do anything to something you cannot see.

My point is, the premise of this discussion can be argued in many ways for which the direction of it will go no where.

Yeah, no.

Comparing what blind does to a warriors adrenaline generation to an effect that locks out an entire trait line and a class mechanic is ridiculous – they aren’t even remotely comparable, and you should know that.

I don’t know about you but there is a trait line that relies on adrenaline. Besides, we’re talking about denial here not total lock out.

Besides, my point is, there is no harm to locking out a trait line that very few uses, if not never, in PvP.

For it to be comparable, blind would have to read “Target loses all adrenaline and cannot gain adrenaline for 4s”, and they’d also have to have an entire traitline where every minor trait and worthwhile major trait revolved around generating/using adrenaline. Edit: Oh, and also once hit with blind there’s no way to cleanse the “no adrenaline” effects, you just have to wait it out.

Should we also make it that Revealed can be applied as easily as blind just to make it even more comparable?

It’s much easier to deny Warrior adrenaline than to deny Thief stealth. What I’m comparing is that both profession can be denied and if Thief will get a special treatment, other professions should also.

I’m not sure why you’d ever bother to post that, or the unrelated scenarios that followed it.

Probably because due to the silliness of this topic. I would rather see a topic about improving the Thief’s survivability without relying on stealth and leave the stealth as is.

I don’t see stealth as a profession mechanic in the same way something like steal is. It is a playstyle choice for survivability, the other major choice being evades. Many other professions have these kinds of choices. For example, mesmer has the choice to spec for shatter damage or phantasm damage, both of which have unique counterplay. With this analogy, getting revealed as a thief is similar to having your phantasms cleaved down as a mesmer. Sure, it hinders you, but it’s part of the game, and you work around it.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

I’m pretty certain that engineers aren’t going to be running their AoE reveal (just as they don’t run lock on). I certainly won’t run it. It’s an elite skill that also gives stealth while keeping the drone that provides the stealth visible and (presumably) targetable. No thanks, I’ll keep running Elixir X or (Mortar) (depending) on the situation.

Whether or not you run it is anecdotal, will others run it? It’s also highly susceptible to change, will it be run when there’s a meta shift?

More importantly, it doesn’t really matter who runs it – what matters is the design philosophy behind it. I said all this when they added stealth reveal traps in WvW, then again when they added reveal to ranger, and again when it was added to utlitiy goggles – hardcountering a classes mechanics is extremely poor design. It shows a lack of creativity and understanding from the development team. At this point, it’s a pretty clear indicator of how Anet plans on “balancing” stealth (and by extension thieves)for the lifetime of the game.

Using the same train of thought, hard counters only affect those who runs stealth, but not all Thief.

Why is Warrior ShoutBow is popular? It’s because we hard counter them in melee with blind — thus denying (on hindering) them their Adrenaline mechanic.

Heck we can even make an argument that because of stealth, the Thief can deny everybody else from using their mechanic on the Thief. You can’t really do anything to something you cannot see.

My point is, the premise of this discussion can be argued in many ways for which the direction of it will go no where.

Yeah, no.

Comparing what blind does to a warriors adrenaline generation to an effect that locks out an entire trait line and a class mechanic is ridiculous – they aren’t even remotely comparable, and you should know that.

I don’t know about you but there is a trait line that relies on adrenaline. Besides, we’re talking about denial here not total lock out.

Besides, my point is, there is no harm to locking out a trait line that very few uses, if not never, in PvP.

For it to be comparable, blind would have to read “Target loses all adrenaline and cannot gain adrenaline for 4s”, and they’d also have to have an entire traitline where every minor trait and worthwhile major trait revolved around generating/using adrenaline. Edit: Oh, and also once hit with blind there’s no way to cleanse the “no adrenaline” effects, you just have to wait it out.

Should we also make it that Revealed can be applied as easily as blind just to make it even more comparable?

It’s much easier to deny Warrior adrenaline than to deny Thief stealth. What I’m comparing is that both profession can be denied and if Thief will get a special treatment, other professions should also.

I’m not sure why you’d ever bother to post that, or the unrelated scenarios that followed it.

Probably because due to the silliness of this topic. I would rather see a topic about improving the Thief’s survivability without relying on stealth and leave the stealth as is.

You can’t just ignore part of your class, the broken you left when trying to adjust it while adding more counters. Your request happened through DD and Acro says “thank you for putting me out of misery”.

kaikalii.4198:

I don’t see stealth as a profession mechanic in the same way something like steal is. It is a playstyle choice for survivability, the other major choice being evades. Many other professions have these kinds of choices. For example, mesmer has the choice to spec for shatter damage or phantasm damage, both of which have unique counterplay. With this analogy, getting revealed as a thief is similar to having your phantasms cleaved down as a mesmer. Sure, it hinders you, but it’s part of the game, and you work around it.

please name me a class that has attack that requires stealth….

please name me a class which whole defensive trait line is about stealth

Sagat.3285:

You can’t just ignore part of your class, the broken you left when trying to adjust it while adding more counters. Your request happened through DD and Acro says “thank you for putting me out of misery”.

If you follow my take on Thief, you would not think that I am ignoring it.

If I am to make changes to Thief, first I would remove the stealth attacks and make them flanking attacks. That way no more silly argument about skills getting locked out by Revealed.

Second, the Acro line needs to be improved big time to rival Shadow Arts. Feline Grace needs to be restored, heal and cleanse on dodge (not evade) needs to be implemented, and buff duration to be baseline.

Third, Steal will have a base cooldown of 20s and remove CDR traits from Trickery.

With these 3 changes, the gameplay of the Thief will greatly improve regardless of what build you make.

So no, I’m not ignoring stealth nor I see it to be broken.

kaikalii.4198:

I don’t see stealth as a profession mechanic in the same way something like steal is. It is a playstyle choice for survivability, the other major choice being evades. Many other professions have these kinds of choices. For example, mesmer has the choice to spec for shatter damage or phantasm damage, both of which have unique counterplay. With this analogy, getting revealed as a thief is similar to having your phantasms cleaved down as a mesmer. Sure, it hinders you, but it’s part of the game, and you work around it.

Stealth is most defiantly part of thief class mechanics. Stealth Attack? How is that not a class mechanic? The only class with it and one of our core and unique abilities even on the new DD.

And then there is the Traits. The DA line have Revealed Training which I admit can work without stealth with the new class reveals but it is meant for stealthing all the time, in CS line Hidden Killer, and is SA line every ability but Venomous Aura and Leeching Venom stealths you, only works in stealth, or reduces the CD of stealth abilities. All of it meant to modify stealth to be something special to the thief beyond what other classed have.

Steal is a class mechanic for sure but so is stealth. You have to go out of your way to avoid stealth as a thief and if you do you still lose stealth attacks even if you take no traits.

Thieves should get a Trait where if we use an out-of-stealth attack on an Engineer, it prevents them from using Kits and toolkit abilities for 8 seconds.

Funny, everyone forgot stunbreak ability on Revenant spec, it reveals thief hard making it so easy to just destroy thief…

Another thing that is thief mechanics is stealth attack that also will be countered. Just face it guys anet hates thief and isnt rly trying to make thief fun. Daredevil is basicly less fun less working evade thief from before(build they destroyed cuz it was too good in good player hands) Every other class get something new to thier “mechanics and f1” we get BRAND NEW STEAL… Now it will get you 1 free evade if you use it so be happy, U will also get same kittenty steal items (especially in pve).
If thief want to deal dmg he will reveal himself there is NO OTHER way + Stealth is only working defence for thief (they even NERFED endu regen gave every other class nice endu regen traits, and kittented on us with bonus regen on vigor that we cant even get proper uptime and requires thief to get out of fight wait for vigor to regen and go in, when before we had same 3 evades like daredevil (with better agility signet since it gave us 100% not 2/3 of endu)), scraping thief of thier only defence is just harsh, i know this trait is more like “anti pu mesmer” but mesmer deals good dmg from range(what thief cant) has multiple way of sustain/dmg negation (that we dont). Anet will let thief get kittened cuz “IF U WANT TO ROLL THIEF YOU BETTER BE AWARE OF EVERYTHING or YOU DIE!” “If you play any other class then you dont need to care about kitten cuz ur mistakes will be forgiven with ur class mechanics” I seen so many noob rangers that basicly wont die instantly (like they should cuz they were terribad) but thier pet decided to leap with knock or crit for kittenton dmg. Thier trait will negate most of your dmg and you will be foreced to reset fight. And thats problem, thief reseting fight is doing nothing for some time when enemy can just cap/kill his teammates/take objectives.

Cynz.9437:

kaikalii.4198:

I don’t see stealth as a profession mechanic in the same way something like steal is. It is a playstyle choice for survivability, the other major choice being evades. Many other professions have these kinds of choices. For example, mesmer has the choice to spec for shatter damage or phantasm damage, both of which have unique counterplay. With this analogy, getting revealed as a thief is similar to having your phantasms cleaved down as a mesmer. Sure, it hinders you, but it’s part of the game, and you work around it.

please name me a class that has attack that requires stealth….

please name me a class which whole defensive trait line is about stealth

I think of stealth as being like fear. Many professions have access to fear, but only the necromancer has traits that augment fear and relies on it as much as a mechanic. Like stealth with reveal, fear can be almost totally disabled via stability, which has a limited duration during which other things can be done, just like reveal.

Zodryn.4216:

We need counterplay.

This.

Ohoni.6057:

Thieves should get a Trait where if we use an out-of-stealth attack on an Engineer, it prevents them from using Kits and toolkit abilities for 8 seconds.

So, because engineers can block you out of stealth every once in a while with a trait that none of them actually take, you think that thieves should be capable of locking them out of both their profession mechanic (I don’t see steal or initiative being affected by anything here, by the way) and their weapon swap? kitten good thing that you’re not in charge of balance.

kaikalii.4198:

Cynz.9437:

kaikalii.4198:

I don’t see stealth as a profession mechanic in the same way something like steal is. It is a playstyle choice for survivability, the other major choice being evades. Many other professions have these kinds of choices. For example, mesmer has the choice to spec for shatter damage or phantasm damage, both of which have unique counterplay. With this analogy, getting revealed as a thief is similar to having your phantasms cleaved down as a mesmer. Sure, it hinders you, but it’s part of the game, and you work around it.

please name me a class that has attack that requires stealth….

please name me a class which whole defensive trait line is about stealth

I think of stealth as being like fear. Many professions have access to fear, but only the necromancer has traits that augment fear and relies on it as much as a mechanic. Like stealth with reveal, fear can be almost totally disabled via stability, which has a limited duration during which other things can be done, just like reveal.

You are ignoring Stealth Attacks which are a unique core thief mechanic and not part of the 12 or so stealth affecting talents thieves have. Here to lay it out.

Premise 1) Stealth Attack is a unique thief only class mechanic.
Premise 2) You have to be in stealth to Stealth Attack.
Premise 3) Reveal prevents and removes stealth.
Conclusion) Reveal prevents use of a thief class mechanic. i.e. Stealth Attack

Reveal does not have this effect on any other class so it effects thieves more then anyone else.

Oh and hold onto your pants thieves because every Herald in forced to have an AoE, stun breaking, blinding, 360 range Reveal slotted as a utility on a 20 second CD.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gaze_of_Darkness

Slowmelt.8547:

Zodryn.4216:

We need counterplay.

This.

Counterplay already exists, it’s called Revealed Training.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Slowmelt.8547:

Zodryn.4216:

We need counterplay.

This.

Counterplay already exists, it’s called Revealed Training.

Okay now you made a fool of yourself. This okay-ish trait functions in no way counterplay and even if it was it would be nerfed because too much power cannot be given to 1 trait especially at class mechanic level hard counter-counterplay.

You have more counterplay options against revealed than rangers do against pet bugs.

Imagine if steal removed the enemies weapon for 5 seconds. No skills 1-5. However you get no extra skill. That would be fun. XD

Sagat.3285:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Slowmelt.8547:

Zodryn.4216:

We need counterplay.

This.

Counterplay already exists, it’s called Revealed Training.

Okay now you made a fool of yourself. This okay-ish trait functions in no way counterplay and even if it was it would be nerfed because too much power cannot be given to 1 trait especially at class mechanic level hard counter-counterplay.

The name of the trait is self-explanatory whether you agree with it or not.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sagat.3285:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Slowmelt.8547:

Zodryn.4216:

We need counterplay.

This.

Counterplay already exists, it’s called Revealed Training.

Okay now you made a fool of yourself. This okay-ish trait functions in no way counterplay and even if it was it would be nerfed because too much power cannot be given to 1 trait especially at class mechanic level hard counter-counterplay.

The name of the trait is self-explanatory whether you agree with it or not.

That is untrue. It is not counter-play at all. Revealed is part of the Stealth Attack thief class mechanic. Revealed Training is meant to enhance your damage in the window of self applied reveal you get after using a Sneak Attack and before you can Stealth again after reveal ends.

There is no additional benefit gained from being revealed before hand so the thief gained nothing by being knocked out of stealth by Reveal because be he would of had Revealed Training anyway.

You can’t call it counter play to give the thief what he was going to have anyway.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sagat.3285:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Slowmelt.8547:

Zodryn.4216:

We need counterplay.

This.

Counterplay already exists, it’s called Revealed Training.

Okay now you made a fool of yourself. This okay-ish trait functions in no way counterplay and even if it was it would be nerfed because too much power cannot be given to 1 trait especially at class mechanic level hard counter-counterplay.

The name of the trait is self-explanatory whether you agree with it or not.

Your using a name instead of functionality to describe a trait….I have seen it all..hopefully. Can I argue why Hidden Killer reveals me after it’s effect or why Assasin’s Reward doesn’t reward me for killing foes?

Edit: Are you a secret account of “he who knows his name”??

Saint Jabberwocky.5098:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The name of the trait is self-explanatory whether you agree with it or not.

That is untrue. It is not counter-play at all. Revealed is part of the Stealth Attack thief class mechanic. Revealed Training is meant to enhance your damage in the window of self applied reveal you get after using a Sneak Attack and before you can Stealth again after reveal ends.

No, not just self-applied-revealed because it works as long as you are revealed regardless of what caused the reveal — so it work as a counter to skills that applies Revealed (i.e. Sic ’em).

There is no additional benefit gained from being revealed before hand so the thief gained nothing by being knocked out of stealth by Reveal because be he would of had Revealed Training anyway.

What? You’re not making sense.

If you don’t trait fro Revealed Training, you get nothing when revealed.
If you trait for Revealed Training, you get +200 power.

The players who choose to reveal you have to deal with the powerful you. It is a counterplay.

However, not a lot of players spec for Revealed Training since they rather pick Panic Strike, thus they are purposely not wanting to counter Revealed. That’s their own fault.

You can’t call it counter play to give the thief what he was going to have anyway.

You’re not getting it. The counter is against a reveal that is not the Thief’s doing.

==============

Sagat.3285:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The name of the trait is self-explanatory whether you agree with it or not.

Your using a name instead of functionality to describe a trait….I have seen it all..hopefully. Can I argue why Hidden Killer reveals me after it’s effect

Um, because you are no longer hidden when you are out of stealth.

Again, self-explanatory.

or why Assasin’s Reward doesn’t reward me for killing foes?

Your definition of “reward” doesn’t coincide with what the game consider as a reward. However you are rewarded nonetheless.

Edit: Are you a secret account of “he who knows his name”??

Oh man, you got me. You can also find other posts in this forum where I’m critical about my other self just to throw you off.

You are just trying to confuse the matter. Any thief using Revealed Training has all of the reveal uptime they need to gain the full benefits of Revealed Training through their own self applied reveals.
They are (in order of preference for clarity)
1) Launching a Stealth Attack from stealth.
2) Stealthing.
3) Attacking under the effects of self applied reveal from Stealth Attacking.

There could be some edge cases where you gain a benefit I guess. Something like you have no initiative or skills to stealth in the next few seconds and you are not currently stealthed. If they used reveal on you then I guess that would help a but only then.

Saint Jabberwocky.5098:

If they used reveal on you then I guess that would help a but only then.

That’s the time where Revealed Training is a counterplay. The other usage (i.e. after attacking from stealth) is not a counterplay.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Saint Jabberwocky.5098:

If they used reveal on you then I guess that would help a but only then.

That’s the time where Revealed Training is a counterplay. The other usage (i.e. after attacking from stealth) is not a counterplay.

It is your enemy messing up and misusing their skills. The only time you would gain the benefit is if they revealed you when you are not in stealth and not capable of going in to stealth. So the only time you would benefit is when reveal would normally do nothing.

If you get knocked out of stealth or prevented from going in then there is no “counterplay” benefit because you were going to gain revealed as soon as you attacked and gain Revealed Training anyway. They are just denying you the additional offensive Sneak Attack and defensive time in stealth.

Saint Jabberwocky.5098:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Saint Jabberwocky.5098:

If they used reveal on you then I guess that would help a but only then.

That’s the time where Revealed Training is a counterplay. The other usage (i.e. after attacking from stealth) is not a counterplay.

It’s is your enemy messing up and misusing their skills. The only time you would gain the benefit is if they revealed you when you are not in stealth and not capable of going in to stealth. So the only time you would benefit is when reveal would normally do nothing.

If you get knocked out of stealth or prevented from going in then there is no “counterplay” benefit because you were going to gain revealed as soon as you attacked and gain Revealed Training anyway. They are just denying you the additional offensive Sneak Attack and defensive time in stealth.

That’s what counterplay is. If they deny you the Sneak Attack, you get to have +200 power.

Just because you’ll get +200 power anyway doesn’t make RT less of a counter.

Hidden Killer implies that I killed someone I should still be hidden until I kill someone please buff!!! If my definition of reward doesn’t mean the same to the game why is yours correct about Revealed Training?? Like Saint mentioned it’s intended for your own reveals if it wasn’t we would have a trait line for it but oh look we have stealth traits spreaded in more than 1 line and stealth attacks on every weapon. Please don’t mention change this mechanic to that, stealth is part of current thief it has always been you wanting to change it is denying that it actually is.

Don’t make this thread a grammar debate.

Counterplay is boom this ele has booms I corrupt the boons that’s counterplay. Ranger using RF I used reflect that’s counterplay.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Saint Jabberwocky.5098:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Saint Jabberwocky.5098:

If they used reveal on you then I guess that would help a but only then.

That’s the time where Revealed Training is a counterplay. The other usage (i.e. after attacking from stealth) is not a counterplay.

It’s is your enemy messing up and misusing their skills. The only time you would gain the benefit is if they revealed you when you are not in stealth and not capable of going in to stealth. So the only time you would benefit is when reveal would normally do nothing.

If you get knocked out of stealth or prevented from going in then there is no “counterplay” benefit because you were going to gain revealed as soon as you attacked and gain Revealed Training anyway. They are just denying you the additional offensive Sneak Attack and defensive time in stealth.

That’s what counterplay is. If they deny you the Sneak Attack, you get to have +200 power.

Just because you’ll get +200 power anyway doesn’t make RT less of a counter.

It does make it not a counter.

1) I don’t get revealed before the Sneak Attack.
I get time in stealth.
I get a Sneak Attack.
I get Revealed Training.

2) I get revealed before the Sneak Attack.
I get Revealed Training.

Revealed training is in no way a counter to a enemy reveal that knocks me out of stealth.

Sagat.3285:

Hidden Killer implies that I killed someone I should still be hidden until I kill someone please buff!!!

lol, no it doesn’t imply that.

If my definition of reward doesn’t mean the same to the game why is yours correct about Revealed Training??

I said Revealed Training is self-explanatory.

Like Saint mentioned it’s intended for your own reveals if it wasn’t we would have a trait line for it but oh look we have stealth traits spreaded in more than 1 line and stealth attacks on every weapon. Please don’t mention change this mechanic to that, stealth is part of current thief it has always been you wanting to change it is denying that it actually is.

I’m never in a group to change stealth, rather I want it to be left alone.

Don’t make this thread a grammar debate.

What? When did I ever correct your grammar?

Saint Jabberwocky.5098:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Saint Jabberwocky.5098:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Saint Jabberwocky.5098:

If they used reveal on you then I guess that would help a but only then.

That’s the time where Revealed Training is a counterplay. The other usage (i.e. after attacking from stealth) is not a counterplay.

It’s is your enemy messing up and misusing their skills. The only time you would gain the benefit is if they revealed you when you are not in stealth and not capable of going in to stealth. So the only time you would benefit is when reveal would normally do nothing.

If you get knocked out of stealth or prevented from going in then there is no “counterplay” benefit because you were going to gain revealed as soon as you attacked and gain Revealed Training anyway. They are just denying you the additional offensive Sneak Attack and defensive time in stealth.

That’s what counterplay is. If they deny you the Sneak Attack, you get to have +200 power.

Just because you’ll get +200 power anyway doesn’t make RT less of a counter.

It does make it not a counter.

1) I don’t get revealed before the Sneak Attack.
I get time in stealth.
I get a Sneak Attack.
I get Revealed Training.

2) I get revealed before the Sneak Attack.
I get Revealed Training.

Revealed training is in no way a counter to a enemy reveal that knocks me out of stealth.

Of course it is, because by revealing you, they have to take more damage from you.

If your build can be hosed that easily, then you probably shouldn’t put all your eggs in one basket.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sagat.3285:

Hidden Killer implies that I killed someone I should still be hidden until I kill someone please buff!!!

lol, no it doesn’t imply that.

If my definition of reward doesn’t mean the same to the game why is yours correct about Revealed Training??

I said Revealed Training is self-explanatory.

Like Saint mentioned it’s intended for your own reveals if it wasn’t we would have a trait line for it but oh look we have stealth traits spreaded in more than 1 line and stealth attacks on every weapon. Please don’t mention change this mechanic to that, stealth is part of current thief it has always been you wanting to change it is denying that it actually is.

I’m never in a group to change stealth, rather I want it to be left alone.

Don’t make this thread a grammar debate.

What? When did I ever correct your grammar?

You wanted stealth attacks to change to flanking attacks, you just proved you decide your meaning of the trait’s wording and reject others I didn’t I use their effects and tried your way of seeing them, by grammar I mean writing and vocab in general. You can’t ignore stealth it’s part of thief just like boon and condi manipulatiom are for necro which 66% of it is useless in PvE due to design we don’t need thief to be 66% useless because someone decided “let’s ignore stealth” especially after “he who knows his name” gutted SA for everything but d/p smart isn’t he? Hard counters keep coming.

Again are you a secret account of his by curiosity?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Saint Jabberwocky.5098:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Saint Jabberwocky.5098:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Saint Jabberwocky.5098:

If they used reveal on you then I guess that would help a but only then.

That’s the time where Revealed Training is a counterplay. The other usage (i.e. after attacking from stealth) is not a counterplay.

It’s is your enemy messing up and misusing their skills. The only time you would gain the benefit is if they revealed you when you are not in stealth and not capable of going in to stealth. So the only time you would benefit is when reveal would normally do nothing.

If you get knocked out of stealth or prevented from going in then there is no “counterplay” benefit because you were going to gain revealed as soon as you attacked and gain Revealed Training anyway. They are just denying you the additional offensive Sneak Attack and defensive time in stealth.

That’s what counterplay is. If they deny you the Sneak Attack, you get to have +200 power.

Just because you’ll get +200 power anyway doesn’t make RT less of a counter.

It does make it not a counter.

1) I don’t get revealed before the Sneak Attack.
I get time in stealth.
I get a Sneak Attack.
I get Revealed Training.

2) I get revealed before the Sneak Attack.
I get Revealed Training.

Revealed training is in no way a counter to a enemy reveal that knocks me out of stealth.

Of course it is, because by revealing you, they have to take more damage from you.

If your build can be hosed that easily, then you probably shouldn’t put all your eggs in one basket.

No, they don’t take more damage. We already established that you would have the revealed training bonus anyway from the sneak attack.

I am hesitant to call someone a out when they genuinely might misunderstand but I think I am done trying to explain it to you. If you can’t figure it out off of what I have already said then additional effort on my part is doomed to be wasted.

Revealed training isn’t counterplay. Counterplay is when someone reveals me and I can do something or something happens to react to it so I’m not totally screwed, or can even possibly turn the tables. 200 power with no access to backstab or my main survival source isn’t very valuable. It doesn’t counteract the reveal. It just gives a mild buff.

Example of active counterplay: if an SA trait made steal remove reveal, I could save steal instead of opening with it, then use it to counter the effects of lock on/sic ’em or what have you.

Example of passive counter: Mirror of Anguish. Wanna try and lock down that Mesmer? Joke’s on you. In this case it’s not active counterplay since it’s automatic, but it is certainly a counter.

Sagat.3285:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sagat.3285:

Hidden Killer implies that I killed someone I should still be hidden until I kill someone please buff!!!

lol, no it doesn’t imply that.

If my definition of reward doesn’t mean the same to the game why is yours correct about Revealed Training??

I said Revealed Training is self-explanatory.

Like Saint mentioned it’s intended for your own reveals if it wasn’t we would have a trait line for it but oh look we have stealth traits spreaded in more than 1 line and stealth attacks on every weapon. Please don’t mention change this mechanic to that, stealth is part of current thief it has always been you wanting to change it is denying that it actually is.

I’m never in a group to change stealth, rather I want it to be left alone.

Don’t make this thread a grammar debate.

What? When did I ever correct your grammar?

You wanted stealth attacks to change to flanking attacks,

That’s not changing stealth.

you just proved you decide your meaning of the trait’s wording and reject others I didn’t I use their effects and tried your way of seeing them, by grammar I mean writing and vocab in general.

You can write however you want. I’m not criticizing your grammar.

You can’t ignore stealth it’s part of thief just like boon and condi manipulatiom are for necro which 66% of it is useless in PvE due to design we don’t need thief to be 66% useless because someone decided “let’s ignore stealth” especially after “he who knows his name” gutted SA for everything but d/p smart isn’t he? Hard counters keep coming.

I believe that stealth is fine as is. What needs to change are the things that requires stealth like stealth attacks. I hate that stealth is a pre-requisite, that’s the one they need to change.

Again are you a secret account of his by curiosity?

I’ve told, you got me. Nothing can get pass you.
===============

Saint Jabberwocky.5098:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Saint Jabberwocky.5098:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Saint Jabberwocky.5098:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Saint Jabberwocky.5098:

If they used reveal on you then I guess that would help a but only then.

That’s the time where Revealed Training is a counterplay. The other usage (i.e. after attacking from stealth) is not a counterplay.

It’s is your enemy messing up and misusing their skills. The only time you would gain the benefit is if they revealed you when you are not in stealth and not capable of going in to stealth. So the only time you would benefit is when reveal would normally do nothing.

If you get knocked out of stealth or prevented from going in then there is no “counterplay” benefit because you were going to gain revealed as soon as you attacked and gain Revealed Training anyway. They are just denying you the additional offensive Sneak Attack and defensive time in stealth.

That’s what counterplay is. If they deny you the Sneak Attack, you get to have +200 power.

Just because you’ll get +200 power anyway doesn’t make RT less of a counter.

It does make it not a counter.

1) I don’t get revealed before the Sneak Attack.
I get time in stealth.
I get a Sneak Attack.
I get Revealed Training.

2) I get revealed before the Sneak Attack.
I get Revealed Training.

Revealed training is in no way a counter to a enemy reveal that knocks me out of stealth.

Of course it is, because by revealing you, they have to take more damage from you.

If your build can be hosed that easily, then you probably shouldn’t put all your eggs in one basket.

No, they don’t take more damage. We already established that you would have the revealed training bonus anyway from the sneak attack.

You keep on talking about sneak attacks when I’m telling you that RT counterplays reveal that is not your doing.

I am hesitant to call someone a out when they genuinely might misunderstand but I think I am done trying to explain it to you. If you can’t figure it out off of what I have already said then additional effort on my part is doomed to be wasted.

I understand what you’re saying but you’re not understanding mine.

If you sneak attack, RT is a boon.
If you get revealed via Sic ’em, RT is a counterplay.

Sir Vincent III.1286

If you sneak attack, RT is a boon.
If you get revealed via Sic ’em, RT is a counterplay.

Does it matter what you call it though? Fine, let’s call it counterplay. I’ll change my request: I want good counterplay.

Zodryn.4216:

Sir Vincent III.1286

If you sneak attack, RT is a boon.
If you get revealed via Sic ’em, RT is a counterplay.

Does it matter what you call it though? Fine, let’s call it counterplay. I’ll change my request: I want good counterplay.

Then I agree. We need more and good counterplays — RT is not enough.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Zodryn.4216:

Sir Vincent III.1286

If you sneak attack, RT is a boon.
If you get revealed via Sic ’em, RT is a counterplay.

Does it matter what you call it though? Fine, let’s call it counterplay. I’ll change my request: I want good counterplay.

Then I agree. We need more and good counterplays — RT is not enough.

Totally agree with you. Thanks!