In fact I would love to see all venom traits on the same tree. Merge Quick Venoms with Venomous Strength (there are multiple utility skill families that get a bonus on use on the same trait that gives the 20% cooldown reduction) and put the result where Quick Venoms is, then put Leeching Venoms on the spot that Quick Venoms just fred, and finally make Venomous Aura (or a mix of it and Residual) on the 30pts for Deadly Arts.
“Shadow Arts” and Venoms aren’t related to each other in concept, everything venom related should be on Deadly Arts and mixing the traits with each other would help with them
I’m a longtime Venom Sharer and while I love the build, I would love this change so I can invest in other traits and trait lines.
Tbh I’d do it the other way around, but merging them I agree with.
Deadly Arts mix better with condition builds than Shadow Arts, and putting the merged venoms on Deadly Arts free venom sharers to get the defensive traits on SA if they invest on it.
I considered asking to move Leeching Venoms but Leeching Venoms is a healing trait which fits inside Shadow Arts which is our healing branch.
The merge itself is kind of justified because I don’t see Residual Venoms to be worthy of at trait at all in it’s current form so might as well merge something useful in it.
Tbh I’d do it the other way around, but merging them I agree with.
Deadly Arts mix better with condition builds than Shadow Arts, and putting the merged venoms on Deadly Arts free venom sharers to get the defensive traits on SA if they invest on it.
As it is now Venom share is one of the few trait that keeps that line from being so alienating. I’d keep it in there and merge it with residual. Making Venom share a straight out stronger trait. At that point you get a little more bang for your buck for investing 30 in SA other than playing immortal with Shadow rejuvenation.
Then you can play with 10/30/30 on every weapon for instance, or stay with 30/x/30/x/x. 20/20/30, so on and so forth. The two together is great in either line, but Imo Shadow arts doesn’t need to lose any more non-stealth options. Every line benefits and every weapon set benefits if it stays in Shadow arts.
If you’re S/P, P/P or SB. Defensive traits in Shadow arts are basically Slowed Pulse and Hidden Killer. Sure there is Deception but assuming you are a venom based thief, Deception isn’t something you’re going to take regardless. In SA Venom share merged with residual keeps all trait lines appealing to all weapon sets.
That’s completely irrational. Just take Deadly Arts with some other tree that will actually help you, like Acrobatics. If you aren’t using a lot of Stealth or Venom Share (which should not be there), you have no business going deep into Shadow Arts.
That’s no different than a Ranger using a greatsword with spirits/shouts investing 30 points in Marksmanship, or an Engineer using a rifle and turrets taking 30 in Alchemy.
Deadly Arts is the Venom tree. Shadow Arts is the Stealth tree.
That’s completely irrational. Just take Deadly Arts with some other tree that will actually help you, like Acrobatics. If you aren’t using a lot of Stealth or Venom Share (which should not be there), you have no business going deep into Shadow Arts.
That’s no different than a Ranger using a greatsword with spirits/shouts investing 30 points in Marksmanship, or an Engineer using a rifle and turrets taking 30 in Alchemy.
Irrational? IYou’re saying is exactly what I’m saying
If Venom share isn’t in Shadow arts, then there is less reason to be in Shadow arts period because it centers heavily on Stealth. Keeping it there makes that line a hell of a lot less shallow and gives you more choice on how to build by having all 5 lines attractive to everyone. We could throw Fleet of Shadow in SA, rip out Slowed pulse, leeching and power shots too and throw in even more stealth traits but it’s literally just making the line shallow and decreasing your reasons to consider the trait line.
And then why would anyone ever take Deadly Arts? On top of that, going into Shadow Arts for Venoms and NOT Stealth leaves you with a crap load of wasted traits, including every single Minor.
Shadow Arts also already gets massive use by anyone with, as either weapon set, S/D, P/D, D/D, D/P.
It doesn’t come anywhere near needing something like that as a crutch to maintain wide appeal.
And then why would anyone ever take Deadly Arts? On top of that, going into Shadow Arts for Venoms and NOT Stealth leaves you with a crap load of wasted traits, including every single Minor.
Shadow Arts also already gets massive use by anyone with, as either weapon set, S/D, P/D, D/D, D/P.
It doesn’t come anywhere near needing something like that as a crutch to maintain wide appeal.
Is that a serious question?
25 DA is typical.
30 DA I’d say is more oft then not taken for Panic strike or to take a second major/adept trait then Residual venoms, but it’s still taken.
3 weapon sets don’t benefit much from SA, outside of venom shares or limited investment. To get more out of it they have to combine with 1 of the other 5 weapon sets and not each other otherwise again they get little out of it. The change decreases the reason to be in that traitline for those 3 weapons and even other weapon sets which can actually take advantage of Shadow arts traits. It certainly make Residual more attractive, but I think in terms of creating the most variety in thieves, giving us weight choices, putting it in DA isn’t as strong a choice.
And then why would anyone ever take Deadly Arts? On top of that, going into Shadow Arts for Venoms and NOT Stealth leaves you with a crap load of wasted traits, including every single Minor.
Shadow Arts also already gets massive use by anyone with, as either weapon set, S/D, P/D, D/D, D/P.
It doesn’t come anywhere near needing something like that as a crutch to maintain wide appeal.
Is that a serious question?
25 DA is typical.
30 DA I’d say is more oft then not taken for Panic strike or to take a second major/adept trait then Residual venoms, but it’s still taken.
3 weapon sets don’t benefit much from SA, outside of venom shares or limited investment. To get more out of it they have to combine with 1 of the other 5 weapon sets and not each other otherwise again they get little out of it. The change decreases the reason to be in that traitline for those 3 weapons and even other weapon sets which can actually take advantage of Shadow arts traits. It certainly make Residual more attractive, but I think in terms of creating the most variety in thieves, giving us weight choices, putting it in DA isn’t as strong a choice.
E, I think what he’s trying to say is that venoms do not blend with shadow arts well at all, and while you could keep them there to give the tree variety, your destroying synergy by doing so. As example, minors in DA give you poison on steal, weakness on poison, and 10% damage when enemy has a condition, all of these things blend perfectly with a venom build. Now take SA, last refuge (we’ll leave that debate alone), extended stealth duration (for a build that may not use stealth at all), and might on stealth (again for a build that may not use stealth at all)
So unless they change the SA minors, DA is a way better place for venom traits, thats also ignoring the obvious 30% condition duration vs 300 healing
I know what he’s saying. I think tree variety and choices are important. With the presumption that Leeching Venoms is usually taken, part of the synergy is boosting Leechings healing for that team you’re presumably supporting with the venomshare trait. Which Is why I’d keep it in shadow arts. Synergy isn’t “destroyed” its not as great as if it were solely in DA. At the cost of some intuitive placement, higher tree variety, and the Venom share playstyle itself is boosted and made more flexible either way.
It’s going to side-grade standard trait set ups like 10/30/30, D/D, D/P and S/D where they can take Venom share instead of Shadow Rejuvenation. Slot a Devourer Venom or Basilisk while having Shadow Embrace and Infused in Shadow and get more out of it than they currently would. Trading that Heal-over-time for offensive utility and minor support.
Venom Share is fundamentally an offensive trait that I see more fitting in Deadly Arts than Shadow Arts.
If people want to play a pure venom share support build there’s already incentive enough to go in both trait lines anyway. Deadly Arts to get Residual Venoms, condition duration and reduced Venom CD and Shadow Arts to get Leeching Venoms and Venom Share.
Venom Share is worthy of a Grandmaster status, not because it’s strong but because it’s build defining. Such a shame that when I get 30 in SA it’s more to get another slot to put a 3rd minor trait
The Shadow Arts trait line needs an overhaul, it’s not done correctly and very OP. And Deadly Arts needs some better condition based benefits, it needs a buff in Venom effects I suppose. Residual Venoms does not cut it as a grandmaster trait.
Why not just have a few traits in DA affecting duration or increased proc chance and allow thieves to have a max of two poisons (utilities) that turn on with a proc %. It dubs it down but allows it to have an option of being useful.
Prior games have done this and it just seems the most logical way to do it.
Having a 10% chance on hit to apply a X condition for Y time would also allow for a more condition build to be more viable. Toss in a trait deep into DA that increases proc chance by 10% then create synergy around another tree. Give more poison options i.e. Poison, Weakness, Crippling, Immob, Burning(acid), leeching, torment, etc or even combine them to allow two X conditions to proc for Y time.
Venomous Aura can have a pulse that goes off every 5 seconds or whatever that wouldn’t be considered overpowered but effective enough to pick up. Make the thief choose the higher proc duration or the ability to share poisons with his team.
There are so many possibilities.
Guardian / Warrior / Thief / Necromancer
Black Gate – Immortals of the Mist [IoM]
There’s no proc chance for venoms currently so I’m not sure how you could increase it.
In the betas, a venom buff would last as long as it’s CD but somehow, ANet decided it was a bad idea and made it 30s which is too short to chain use a venom even with the CD reducing trait.
I do have a collection of ideas that could be applied to make Venoms more useful without making them imba with or without venom share. Still working on it in my head though.
Edit: ah, I read your first post version. Disregard comment about proc chance.
I don’t like random chances to proc a venom. Too RNG for serious PvP for my taste. Crits are already borderline.
There’s no proc chance for venoms currently so I’m not sure how you could increase it.
In the betas, a venom buff would last as long as it’s CD but somehow, ANet decided it was a bad idea and made it 30s which is too short to chain use a venom even with the CD reducing trait.
I do have a collection of ideas that could be applied to make Venoms more useful without making them imba with or without venom share. Still working on it in my head though.
Edit: ah, I read your first post version. Disregard comment about proc chance.
I don’t like random chances to proc a venom. Too RNG for serious PvP for my taste. Crits are already borderline.
I’m not a fan of RNG either and would like more direct impact on when I need them applied but with the way they have them set up it just doesn’t make them effective. They give you X amount of attacks when you really don’t need to apply it multiple times. i.e. Spider Venom- next 5 attacks IF you can land 5 attacks in a row will cause poison. So, around 30 seconds of poison only to be cleansed by a utility or passive condition removal? Why even bother?
Guardian / Warrior / Thief / Necromancer
Black Gate – Immortals of the Mist [IoM]
I discard all my previous comments if Shadow arts was actually overhauled.
but other than the random venom traits and kittening last refuge, why would you want to rework shadow arts? it does its job as the stealth tree pretty well, offering a good amount of decent traits related to its “key feature”.
not saying it’s perfect, but i don’t see it needing an overhaul.
In regard to Venom function, I might prefer it if they gave all Venoms a single charge, but drastically reduced the recharge. Like ~15 seconds base. Of course Venomous Strength would have to be altered as well.
I discard all my previous comments if Shadow arts was actually overhauled.
but other than the random venom traits and kittening last refuge, why would you want to rework shadow arts? it does its job as the stealth tree pretty well, offering a good amount of decent traits related to its “key feature”.
not saying it’s perfect, but i don’t see it needing an overhaul.
Overhaul might be conjuring the wrong idea.
Reason to revisit shadow arts
~ Patience really doesn’t need to exist.
~ No customization for Black Powder/IA and our other blind applicants? Where is that blind trait.
~ Power shots is lackluster
~ 101 stealth traits which would certainly make sense if there more traits per line, but with the amount they’ve limited themself to, it’s a bit too dense.
be nice if they did another pass through that line.
I’ll admit it has some useless traits, and Blind boosts would be great. I think if any were to get an overhaul, Deadly Arts is in far greater need. Worthwhile traits are a real rarity in that line. Lotus Poison used to be tree-defining awesomeness, but they nerfed the crap out of it…
I discard all my previous comments if Shadow arts was actually overhauled.
but other than the random venom traits and kittening last refuge, why would you want to rework shadow arts? it does its job as the stealth tree pretty well, offering a good amount of decent traits related to its “key feature”.
not saying it’s perfect, but i don’t see it needing an overhaul.
Overhaul might be conjuring the wrong idea.
Reason to revisit shadow arts
~ Patience really doesn’t need to exist.
~ No customization for Black Powder/IA and our other blind applicants? Where is that blind trait.
~ Power shots is lackluster
~ 101 stealth traits which would certainly make sense if there more traits per line, but with the amount they’ve limited themself to, it’s a bit too dense.
be nice if they did another pass through that line.
i don’t know, i think having more good traits than i can pick is a good thing. it means the trait tree allows for variety in builds even within similar roles (in this case, stealth thief). the ideal scenario would be having all trait trees on all professions being “dense” with valid options for specs, and making you choose a few of those. it would be like making a build in GW1.
patience is kinda useless, yeah, because a thief that’s burning initiative to the point they need to recharge it mid-fight won’t do that by sitting out of battle for whole seconds.
power shots is lame, yeah, but partially due to shortbows being lame as weapons (it’s just an on demand PBAoE bleed with lots of mobility)
we have a blind trait, just not a trait that buffs blind even more than that mechanic change did last month.
but what ANet really needs to do on the SA tree is kill last refuge. it’s like a built in counter for stealth builds, right there on the adept minor trait of the stealth tree.
Actually, Patience is bad because it is universally inferior to the 2 Initiative on Stealth, and is just bad in general because it is only ever capable of restoring a single Initiative after waiting 3 seconds in Stealth.
It should give 1 Initiative on activation, and another Initiative every 2 seconds after.
But that would just make perma-stealth even worse, so more likely it should just be deleted and replaced completely.
Combine Residual venoms and quick venoms, move this to master trait in DA
move venom share to grandmaster in DA
Remove sundering strikes from DA, replace with leeching venoms make it an adept trait
Move sundering strikes to CS as master trait, take ankle shot from CS to Acro as adept for Fleet shadow, Fleet shadow moves to SA as master trait.
Now develop a working and viable SA grandmaster trait. For example,
Assassin’s Armor:
Take 10% less damage while in stealth.(good but not too strong imo)
Somebody owes me 2 cents now that I gave mine away.
If changes have to happen in the SA traits, remember that this is not only our Stealth oriented trait line. It’s also our healing trait line. So instead of adding more traits that deal with stealth and removing the few that don’t, find a GM trait that works on healing or reducing damage somehow :p
Examples :
- “Shadow Form” receive 50% less damage while Revealed
- “Shroud of Distress” heal yourself (1000 HP?) when a blind opponent misses an attack on you (internal CD?)
If changes have to happen in the SA traits, remember that this is not only our Stealth oriented trait line. It’s also our healing trait line. So instead of adding more traits that deal with stealth and removing the few that don’t, find a GM trait that works on healing or reducing damage somehow :p
Examples :
- “Shadow Form” receive 50% less damage while Revealed
- “Shroud of Distress” heal yourself (1000 HP?) when a blind opponent misses an attack on you (internal CD?)
“a GM trait that focuses on healing” you mean shadow’s rejuvenation? :P
