Guild Wars 2

Could be amazing with the recent changes of unload.

Still a meme build

Hard to get all shots to land against good players. Might be effective against some builds though in combination with basi venom or immobilize.

reflect/block meta my friend

Yeah too many classes still have far superior projectile hate, still a great build to pub stomp with though.

Great for DPSing downs tho as all shots will typically hit.

Good secondary weapon but still too inflexible for primary. The flaws are all still there.

Limited defense and that requires taking Bound. Only weapon set that is single target in the entire game. Reflect, projectile defenses, etc are rampant. Anemic auto-attack.

Now condi builds can make use of the weaponset but Unload typically isn’t used.

It certainly doesn’t HURT the condition setups that are already running Dual pistol though, and can make the might stacking slightly more forgiving by refunding two of the initiative spent on the quick stacks of might. It’s a nice QoL change, and mostly effects PvE.

I find it significantly enhances what I can do with my p/p staff thief. He has 100 percent might duration (on the swap) so with the refund , even if it one on two or even three unloads I can have close to full INI when I swap to the staff with maximum might stacks.

Unload followed by unload is 16 off the bat and the might on crit from the food puts that over 20. I can go one more unload or weapon swap. With QP traited, steal to the opponent and I got all that might and close to full ini. (two unloads is 10 refund 2 assuming one hits full chain QP and steal combo gives back 5.) This not a PI build so I do not miss the SOH and I can get interrupt on demand in any case with headshot if I need the same.

I have well over 12 seconds of that might with the chance of more coming in from the staff crits and food. Swap back when it gone and repeat.

P/P for me is still in the same category as zerker sigil thief – you can kill someone really quickly but you are also free points for any half decent team.

They need to buff AA, remove unload and replace it with utility. As i said in other thread, the thing that all “meta” weapon sets had in common is strong AA which allowed thief to conserve ini so they could use it for utility spells like BP or headshot. With PP you have to starve yourself to deal dmg.

Morbid curiosity – do you still get 2 initiative back if all 8 projectiles are reflected and hit you? What if it’s half and half?

Ryudnard.2587:

Could be amazing with the recent changes of unload.

They’ve been buffing this skill many times now and there’s no amount of buff will ever make P/P viable unless they actually accepted the facts:

• P/P has no survivability – if only blind condition functions the same as in GW1, this wouldn’t be an issue
• No access to stealth or evade – compare to other weapon sets, this set is a sitting duck
• No access to leap or shadowstep – leap/shadowstep is crucial for Thief since positioning is important for a P/P build
• Shared skill restriction – the reason why they keep on buffing Unload is because of shared skills. Black Powdernerfed because of D/P was very bad for P/P since it’s already lacking survivability.
• Set lacks AoE – it used to be Richochet trait allows P/P access to AoE, but they nerfed that too

All in all, the nerfs in CS have placed P/P at negative-100% viability where it used to sit at 5%-10% viability where it lacks survivability was offset by a massive amount of damage output. So no, P/P will never be as viable as it was before.

P/P has the same problem of power D/D in that the damage was there (and was even before this buff) but the utility and consistency issues hold it back in most matchups.

Just bumping numbers will only create further-binary fights which is far less fun.

DeceiverX.8361:

P/P has the same problem of power D/D in that the damage was there (and was even before this buff) but the utility and consistency issues hold it back in most matchups.

Just bumping numbers will only create further-binary fights which is far less fun.

At least D/D has evade, AoE, leap and stealth.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DeceiverX.8361:

P/P has the same problem of power D/D in that the damage was there (and was even before this buff) but the utility and consistency issues hold it back in most matchups.

Just bumping numbers will only create further-binary fights which is far less fun.

At least D/D has evade, AoE, leap and stealth.

P/p has blind , interrupt , Immob and projectile finishers. The major advantage of d/d when stacked up against P/P is that when those other functions used (such as the evade on DB) and INI eaten up doing the same, the AA remains potent. Blinds Interrupts and Immobs on their own stack up very well against evades, Aoe and stealth and especially when factoring in more reveals happening.

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DeceiverX.8361:

P/P has the same problem of power D/D in that the damage was there (and was even before this buff) but the utility and consistency issues hold it back in most matchups.

Just bumping numbers will only create further-binary fights which is far less fun.

At least D/D has evade, AoE, leap and stealth.

P/p has blind , interrupt , Immob and projectile finishers. The major advantage of d/d when stacked up against P/P is that when those other functions used (such as the evade on DB) and INI eaten up doing the same, the AA remains potent. Blinds Interrupts and Immobs on their own stack up very well against evades, Aoe and stealth and especially when factoring in more reveals happening.

And now P/P has a slight improved init regeneration with unload

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DeceiverX.8361:

P/P has the same problem of power D/D in that the damage was there (and was even before this buff) but the utility and consistency issues hold it back in most matchups.

Just bumping numbers will only create further-binary fights which is far less fun.

At least D/D has evade, AoE, leap and stealth.

P/p has blind , interrupt , Immob and projectile finishers. The major advantage of d/d when stacked up against P/P is that when those other functions used (such as the evade on DB) and INI eaten up doing the same, the AA remains potent. Blinds Interrupts and Immobs on their own stack up very well against evades, Aoe and stealth and especially when factoring in more reveals happening.

And now P/P has a slight improved init regeneration with unload

Precisely, yet this helps illustrate one of the problems most people have with P/P. Unload is unload and in a fight the p/p user will tend to overlook those other skills simply because they feel they are btter off using another unload in the hope of stacking up that damage and ensuring a win. It akin to the old “must wear zerker gear” mindset. Why worry about defenses when you can just kill him quicker.?

This also happens with people using Vault with staff wherein they simply ignore those other skills in the hopes that “the next big vault will win me this”.

P/P does have defensive utilities but unlike an evade or a stealth or a port which function very well with either power or condition builds, the P/P defensive utilities tend to favor condition builds and or are tied more directly to traits chosen in conjunction with the same. (bound to get the stealth , weakening strikes for weakness, ankle shots for cripple).

The on demand immob off pistol two is a very useful defensive or offensive utility. This is panic strike whenever one needs it and not having a single instance every 20 seconds when enemy health below 50 percent. To do that pistol 2 however, you eat into your prime source of damage. Each individual p/p user will have to decide for themselves. “I got more INI so can output at least as much damage as I could before so am I going to use that extra ini for yet more damage (unload) or try and use it for something like an immob?”

I really do not think they can claim there no utility in the set after using another unload while ignoring its ability to blind immob or interrupt. The utility is in fact there.

And just a by the way. While true the AA compared to other weapon sets on p/p is weak in a POWER build, when that might stacked the damage output jumps considerably. It not all bad and it is ranged.

babazhook.6805:

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DeceiverX.8361:

P/P has the same problem of power D/D in that the damage was there (and was even before this buff) but the utility and consistency issues hold it back in most matchups.

Just bumping numbers will only create further-binary fights which is far less fun.

At least D/D has evade, AoE, leap and stealth.

P/p has blind , interrupt , Immob and projectile finishers. The major advantage of d/d when stacked up against P/P is that when those other functions used (such as the evade on DB) and INI eaten up doing the same, the AA remains potent. Blinds Interrupts and Immobs on their own stack up very well against evades, Aoe and stealth and especially when factoring in more reveals happening.

And now P/P has a slight improved init regeneration with unload

Precisely, yet this helps illustrate one of the problems most people have with P/P. Unload is unload and in a fight the p/p user will tend to overlook those other skills simply because they feel they are btter off using another unload in the hope of stacking up that damage and ensuring a win. It akin to the old “must wear zerker gear” mindset. Why worry about defenses when you can just kill him quicker.?

This also happens with people using Vault with staff wherein they simply ignore those other skills in the hopes that “the next big vault will win me this”.

P/P does have defensive utilities but unlike an evade or a stealth or a port which function very well with either power or condition builds, the P/P defensive utilities tend to favor condition builds and or are tied more directly to traits chosen in conjunction with the same. (bound to get the stealth , weakening strikes for weakness, ankle shots for cripple).

The on demand immob off pistol two is a very useful defensive or offensive utility. This is panic strike whenever one needs it and not having a single instance every 20 seconds when enemy health below 50 percent. To do that pistol 2 however, you eat into your prime source of damage. Each individual p/p user will have to decide for themselves. “I got more INI so can output at least as much damage as I could before so am I going to use that extra ini for yet more damage (unload) or try and use it for something like an immob?”

I really do not think they can claim there no utility in the set after using another unload while ignoring its ability to blind immob or interrupt. The utility is in fact there.

And just a by the way. While true the AA compared to other weapon sets on p/p is weak in a POWER build, when that might stacked the damage output jumps considerably. It not all bad and it is ranged.

I admit I probably spam unload more than I should (that might stacks tho…sexy) however I love pistol 2 and 4 (although P4 i waste more init as I keep hoping for an interrupt…that sexy sexy pulmonary impact…mmmmmm).

tbh tho, with full might stacks (easily achieved by unload, although I may change my rune tho to help me keep my stacks longer from scholar) BL stacks and consumables, my power will push to a bit over 4.1k which when I do a backstab, it will down just about anyone.

Since the change to unload recently, ive been a little more..conscious on when I use my unload. If I can guarantee myself the 2 recovered init, thats 2 more init I can use to set up my D/P burst)

babazhook makes good points here, he describes quite well my thought process when using my pistols. I use Unload until Initiative is gone, only then I can use something else. Even using Impairing Daggers while in the Unload chain will disrupt stacking, so I only use Unload 6 times in a row (mostly, all bullets hit the target). I even hesitate dashing out of a red area because it breaks the flow.

Damage-wise, I finally made a reality check for myself yesterday in several instances.
Although Unload feels like a lot of damage, the staff has slightly more dps. If you get a double damage spot at a boss, that’s even more significant. And that is using only the simple, boring auto attack on the staff, no bouncing around and no Initiative spent, and I could use utility skills. And, I didn’t adjust my trait line for staff, so there’s even more room to do more dps with it.

I will keep using double pistols for daily playing, but when it comes to serious business where people depend on each other, I take out the staff. The pistols are great for bosses that stomp me though, staff skill 3 gets me out of the danger zone, then switching to pistols and unloading is nice. When health is filled up, back to staff.

So, my conclusion is that P/P is a lot of fun for me, but it’s far from meta. I just don’t like tanking, which is what works with staff and all the options thief has to heal by dealing damage. Gets me into awkward chat with people unfamiliar with thief when I unload on Horrik in the Mai Trin fractal just to heal myself, without planning on killing him.

Part of the way I built around my p/p sets (I have two builds using p/p) was to address that tendency to just want to spam unload. In one set I decided to go for a lower crit rate and absolute maximum power I could muster (I get around 3200 with stacks in WvW). I use DD runes and a sigil of intel on the other weapon set. With its high power even if unload does not crit it hits HARD as I have as many of the percent damages boosts that I can fit in.

The typical sequence is unload or headshot , build that might and swap getting three guaranteed crits, dodge and crit in with shadowshot out HS. This gets some huge damage from the bounds, that same shadowshot and the heartseekers or AA and PI. Given the intel sigil is three hits , I found I needed less Boon duration to extend that might.

The second set is focused on boon duration with staff off hand. Rather then unload until the INI gone I unload until I get my max stacks then flip to staff where I spend a great chunk of time, then back again. The base power lower but crit rate high and there 20 seconds plus of Quickness available to me between cooldowns at 40 seconds. This high crit rate, might stacking and quickness more then makes up for the lower power. (I use runes of leadership on this guy and no PI so it has excellent cleanse used in conjunction with EA and trickster traited)

Build one relies on steal a lot with DA traited with mug plus SOH for a PI interrupt. Build 2 minimizes steal as it uses the CS line. I sort of gave myself an incentive in each to want to change off hand. That sudden switch from the Unload spam to another weapon that both hits hard and deals with a lot of the counters an enemy throws up (ie reflect) can really take people off guard

Now I do not PvP nor do I do raids and am in WvW most of the time, but this works very well there for my purposes and is fun.

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DeceiverX.8361:

P/P has the same problem of power D/D in that the damage was there (and was even before this buff) but the utility and consistency issues hold it back in most matchups.

Just bumping numbers will only create further-binary fights which is far less fun.

At least D/D has evade, AoE, leap and stealth.

P/p has blind , interrupt , Immob and projectile finishers. The major advantage of d/d when stacked up against P/P is that when those other functions used (such as the evade on DB) and INI eaten up doing the same, the AA remains potent. Blinds Interrupts and Immobs on their own stack up very well against evades, Aoe and stealth and especially when factoring in more reveals happening.

If this P/P set is not on the Thief profession, then that would be a good case. However, these are not defenses granted to the Thief which are built around evades, stealth and shadowstep. Blind would have been a perfect defense if it functions the same way as in GW1 or at least have them stack for each application.

D/D in comparison has a lot of positive aspects: hybrid damage, leap with scaling damage, AoE + evade for the price cheaper than Unload, bouncing cripple, stealth + vulnerability, and backstab. Not to mention, dagger auto-attack is faster than pistol’s auto and also boosts endurance regeneration.

Black Powder is ridiculously expensive and it will not be any cheaper thanks to the shared skill with D/P set. So trying to defend using this skill is counter productive.

Head Shot is another expensive “defensive” skill. I say “defensive” only because I never ever use it for defense.

Body Shot is another expensive skill to be used for defense, which again I normally use for offense.

The major difference between D/D and P/P is using DB applies DoT thus using other skills in the weapon set proves to be profitable. On the other hand, Unload requires constant activation while effectively barring other skills from being used since using them are inefficient. If you stop Unloading, your DPS drops, your might stacks falls off, and you don’t benefit from the constant init refunds. With D/D I can combo my skills however I want and maintain high DPS.

For P/P to be viable, P/P should use its own unique 5 skills weapon set. I know I’m only repeating myself here, but every time P/P’s viability is in a discussion, this is the only effective solution if P/P is to be perceived as viable. Treating P/P like a two-handed weapon can add a more fun and active play style to the weapon set. For example, P/P auto-attack will use both pistols instead of just the main hand. Auto-attack will be like a slower version of Unload. Stealth skill and skills #2, #4, and #5 slots will be open for new skills that can give P/P access to evade, stealth, and/or shadowstep. Then it would be viable to take either Acro or SA for defense depending on the player’s play style.

The loss of the DD Elite when a new Elite trait rolls in will definitely make P/P obsolete. Right now, the real defense skill using P/P is Dash or Bound: Dash if you’re an evade playstyle and Bound if you’re a stealth playstyle. Without these two traits, P/P is dead yet again. So in order to stop P/P from dying, they need make this drastic change — it is for the better in the long run, if they are aiming for a long run, that is. Nevertheless, the bottom line remains the same — P/P is far from viable without drastic change.

Let us just say That I play two thieves in WvW that use p/p and I find them viable. Unload does NOT preclude the use of other skills if you play with what the build offers you. Again my might stacks on one build last 16 seconds. the design of my build allows might to continue to come in while those might stacks are ticking off (albeit at a lower rate) This gives me plenty of time to leverage that might into a Bound or multiple bounds , into my PIs off an interrupt , Into my AA off the Pistol set or into a weapon swap wherein i use another weapons strengths while that might stacked.

I assure you that when my might stacked my Bounds, P{i’s Mug steals ALL do far more damage then does the same used by d/d or d/p. Not only do these hit harder but If I use fist flurry or Impact strike or scorpion wire off a utility bar they all hit significantly harder then do those from a d/d or d/p build.

While my second set does not use boon duration so as to extend that might, the 8 seconds is more then enough to allow me to swap weapons to get a might loaded shadsowshot in, Bound onto a person with over 4k in power running (no ini needed) or hit with a mug (no ini needed) or impact strike (no ini needed) for huge damage spikes.

If you are designing a build that does not use Bound or PI or MUG or Fist flurry or Impact strike then you might be better off not using p/p but that is your choice. It is not because using unload requires constant activation so as to be usable. In game termns 25 stacks of might for 8 seconds is LOTS of extra damage for any type of attack you choose to use. There a heck of a lot of enemy that will not live past that 8 seconds once that might loaded attack comes in.

its a nice pve change to give them a little more sustain,
i’ve been using p/p in pvp for a long time though and don’t think it’ll make much difference for pvp, anyone you’re shooting at is already dead in 2-3 unloads
(which was already possible without this initiative refund buff)

and if they survive it is because they blocked/evaded/dodged in which case the initiative refund wouldn’t happen anyway.

to me this change is more for raids/world bosses to let you use unload more often.

I’ve started using D/P + P/P Crit/Trick/DrD roaming in WvW again and it has been wildly fun. It makes it a lot easier to take care of those condi Revs that have been popping up like dandelions.

@babazhook.6805

I was making a case where using the rest of the skills in the P/P weapon set are counterproductive — just as you have illustrated that in order to capitalize the benefit from Unload, you have to swap to Staff. However, your argument is all about the offensive side of P/P and my argument is about the defensive side. Offensively, I agree with you but you have not mentioned anything about defensive. For a build to be viable, in my opinion of course, a weapon set must have access to defensive skills designed for Thief. Not blind, not immob, and not interrupt. Thief’s traits synergize with stealth and evade — and shadowstep is uniquely special for Thief (I still like to see SA doing something for shadowstep, but that’s for another topic). In my observation, there’s just too much emphasis on P/P offensive capability when the skills it really needs are defensive skills.

There are so many problems with the current P/P defensive skill and the main problem is cost and because of shared skills with P/D and D/P; Body Shot, Head Shot, and Black Powder will never have their cost reduced anytime soon — or ever. The solution they’ve implemented is to refund init on Unload assuming that players will use that extra init defensively. Unfortunately, we all know that it is more efficient to dump that extra init for another Unload which further strengthen my point that using the rest of the skills in the P/P weapon set is counterproductive. Further buffing Unload will not solve the problem until they completely redesign how Dual-Wield actually works for the Thief profession — which I suggest that if the same type weapons are in each hand (D/D and P/P) the Dual-Wield innate ability will not only change Skill #3, instead all 5 skills. This will allow the Dev to add defensive skills to P/P without affecting D/P and P/D.

In your post, you used a lot of skills from the current Elite trait — the question is, what will happen to P/P without using that Elite trait? No access to Staff, no PI, no 3rd Dodge, etc. — P/P dies again.

just a note, with pistol 2 you can land a full unload at a decent enough range.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

@babazhook.6805

I was making a case where using the rest of the skills in the P/P weapon set are counterproductive — just as you have illustrated that in order to capitalize the benefit from Unload, you have to swap to Staff. However, your argument is all about the offensive side of P/P and my argument is about the defensive side. Offensively, I agree with you but you have not mentioned anything about defensive. For a build to be viable, in my opinion of course, a weapon set must have access to defensive skills designed for Thief. Not blind, not immob, and not interrupt. Thief’s traits synergize with stealth and evade — and shadowstep is uniquely special for Thief (I still like to see SA doing something for shadowstep, but that’s for another topic). In my observation, there’s just too much emphasis on P/P offensive capability when the skills it really needs are defensive skills.

There are so many problems with the current P/P defensive skill and the main problem is cost and because of shared skills with P/D and D/P; Body Shot, Head Shot, and Black Powder will never have their cost reduced anytime soon — or ever. The solution they’ve implemented is to refund init on Unload assuming that players will use that extra init defensively. Unfortunately, we all know that it is more efficient to dump that extra init for another Unload which further strengthen my point that using the rest of the skills in the P/P weapon set is counterproductive. Further buffing Unload will not solve the problem until they completely redesign how Dual-Wield actually works for the Thief profession — which I suggest that if the same type weapons are in each hand (D/D and P/P) the Dual-Wield innate ability will not only change Skill #3, instead all 5 skills. This will allow the Dev to add defensive skills to P/P without affecting D/P and P/D.

In your post, you used a lot of skills from the current Elite trait — the question is, what will happen to P/P without using that Elite trait? No access to Staff, no PI, no 3rd Dodge, etc. — P/P dies again.

P/P is a ranged weapon, as such it has less need of stealth and evade. Go through all your ranged weapons on any class. For those classes with Blocks and Invulns as a main defense , there little of such provided in their ranged weapons.

If you are fighting at melee range with your p/p and wondering how you can survive without stealth or evades when an enemy attacks, you are doing it wrong. Keeping that distance IS your defence as you whittle him down with your attacks and yes Cripple and Immob work very well here to keep that range giving them little chance to attack you so you have less need of the evades and stealths other sets provide.

If I am fighting a DH as example and get behind him with an immob his inability to turn and face me will inhibit a lot of his attacks so I do not need to stealth or dodge them. I do not have to dodge his traps because I am not needing to stand in them.

Yes you have to deal with other ranged users as well but you still have access to stealth if needed , you still have your dodges and you have the ability to get a multiple of your big hitting attacks to that persons one. Certainly it “fragile” in that you can make few mistakes , but it hits hard and can deal excellent damage. It “fragile” like the Zerker power build fragile with the difference being with theZerker if you fail to dodge or stealth when needed you end up in trouble and with p/p if you fail to keep your range you end up in trouble.

Using the stealth out of d/p might be an easier way to survive but we do not always need easy.

EremiteAngel.9765:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVUwEhj6kcU

I fought a very good DD using P/P after the patch in the video above near the start and I would think he struggled from lack of decent condi clearance. I know he is very good because I’ve seen him take down many strong foes but the P/P build he was using seems to have very limited condi management.
I would think this will be a problem for P/P builds even post patch.

Open your freakin’ chests

EremiteAngel.9765:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVUwEhj6kcU

I fought a very good DD using P/P after the patch in the video above near the start and I would think he struggled from lack of decent condi clearance. I know he is very good because I’ve seen him take down many strong foes but the P/P build he was using seems to have very limited condi management.
I would think this will be a problem for P/P builds even post patch.

If we are talking WvW as far as condition cleanse goes you can do some or all of this in some combination without compromising damage.

Trait EA coupled with UC. The EA cleanses on evade and UC addresses chills , crippled and immobs.

Trait Trickster over BT and put withdraw , RFI and haste or SW on toolbar. RFI just works well with p/p and throwing in a lower cooldown helpful. Haste is another stunbreak and SW has an uberlow cooldown and can pull runners to you or pull people out of marks and traps so adding a cleanse useful.

The withdraw traited this way can clear 6 conditions every 14 seconds. The pairing of withdraw with RFI is another immob chill and cripple cleanse which is great against Necro.

Throw on Leadership runes. You get your 30 percent boost to your mights which also goes to the swiftness off UC and your fury and quickness sources. It also gives 2 more cleanses everytime you use your elite.

Trait SOA for 3 more cleanses.

You still have room to put on a sigil that cleanses such as generosity. If that off ICD an unload will always cleanse and transfer. If this all overkill as far as cleanses go, you can drop EA and take the PI for your headshot damage with interrupt. Shadowstep can be used in lieu of the haste .

@babazhook.6805
My main point is; Dash and Bound are perfect with P/P for both stealth and evade playstyle. Without them, P/P dies since Dash is really good at keeping the distance and Bound gives access to stealth to keep the distance. Thus it should be incorporated into the weapon set these capabilities regardless of what Elite trait is available. I just don’t want to lose these when the new Elite rolls in.

I understand what you’re saying. Despite my disagreement, that I believe P/P should be a balance weapon set, I am not unaware that this set is being developed to be a “high risk, high reward” weapon set. However, it is monotonous and it’s easy to counter because of that. It loses viability when there are no other options when Unload is suppressed.

I look at it this way — take away everything DD provides and look at what was left, P/P is a sad weapon set.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

@babazhook.6805
My main point is; Dash and Bound are perfect with P/P for both stealth and evade playstyle. Without them, P/P dies since Dash is really good at keeping the distance and Bound gives access to stealth to keep the distance. Thus it should be incorporated into the weapon set these capabilities regardless of what Elite trait is available. I just don’t want to lose these when the new Elite rolls in.

I understand what you’re saying. Despite my disagreement, that I believe P/P should be a balance weapon set, I am not unaware that this set is being developed to be a “high risk, high reward” weapon set. However, it is monotonous and it’s easy to counter because of that. It loses viability when there are no other options when Unload is suppressed.

I look at it this way — take away everything DD provides and look at what was left, P/P is a sad weapon set.

It doesn’t necessarily need DrD to be successful though. If you’re solo or dueling, yes, it relies heavily on that. But core Thief can perform very will with P/P if they are with a group. As long as skirt the fight, or take utilities to clear target and quickly lose the focus, they will still be very deadly. More so than a DrD, as they are free to take Trick/DA/Crit.

Every weapon set doesn’t (and shouldn’t) have to be balanced around 1v1 or solo/roaming.

Turk.5460:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

@babazhook.6805
My main point is; Dash and Bound are perfect with P/P for both stealth and evade playstyle. Without them, P/P dies since Dash is really good at keeping the distance and Bound gives access to stealth to keep the distance. Thus it should be incorporated into the weapon set these capabilities regardless of what Elite trait is available. I just don’t want to lose these when the new Elite rolls in.

I understand what you’re saying. Despite my disagreement, that I believe P/P should be a balance weapon set, I am not unaware that this set is being developed to be a “high risk, high reward” weapon set. However, it is monotonous and it’s easy to counter because of that. It loses viability when there are no other options when Unload is suppressed.

I look at it this way — take away everything DD provides and look at what was left, P/P is a sad weapon set.

It doesn’t necessarily need DrD to be successful though. If you’re solo or dueling, yes, it relies heavily on that. But core Thief can perform very will with P/P if they are with a group. As long as skirt the fight, or take utilities to clear target and quickly lose the focus, they will still be very deadly. More so than a DrD, as they are free to take Trick/DA/Crit.

Every weapon set doesn’t (and shouldn’t) have to be balanced around 1v1 or solo/roaming.

You’re completely missing the point.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Turk.5460:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

@babazhook.6805
My main point is; Dash and Bound are perfect with P/P for both stealth and evade playstyle. Without them, P/P dies since Dash is really good at keeping the distance and Bound gives access to stealth to keep the distance. Thus it should be incorporated into the weapon set these capabilities regardless of what Elite trait is available. I just don’t want to lose these when the new Elite rolls in.

I understand what you’re saying. Despite my disagreement, that I believe P/P should be a balance weapon set, I am not unaware that this set is being developed to be a “high risk, high reward” weapon set. However, it is monotonous and it’s easy to counter because of that. It loses viability when there are no other options when Unload is suppressed.

I look at it this way — take away everything DD provides and look at what was left, P/P is a sad weapon set.

It doesn’t necessarily need DrD to be successful though. If you’re solo or dueling, yes, it relies heavily on that. But core Thief can perform very will with P/P if they are with a group. As long as skirt the fight, or take utilities to clear target and quickly lose the focus, they will still be very deadly. More so than a DrD, as they are free to take Trick/DA/Crit.

Every weapon set doesn’t (and shouldn’t) have to be balanced around 1v1 or solo/roaming.

You’re completely missing the point.

You didn’t make any points. You stated opinions.

Your opinion is of a stealth or evade style gameplay, and you think that the weaponset is “sad” without DrD. My response was adequate in relation to your opinion.

??

Turk.5460:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Turk.5460:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

@babazhook.6805
My main point is; Dash and Bound are perfect with P/P for both stealth and evade playstyle. Without them, P/P dies since Dash is really good at keeping the distance and Bound gives access to stealth to keep the distance. Thus it should be incorporated into the weapon set these capabilities regardless of what Elite trait is available. I just don’t want to lose these when the new Elite rolls in.

I understand what you’re saying. Despite my disagreement, that I believe P/P should be a balance weapon set, I am not unaware that this set is being developed to be a “high risk, high reward” weapon set. However, it is monotonous and it’s easy to counter because of that. It loses viability when there are no other options when Unload is suppressed.

I look at it this way — take away everything DD provides and look at what was left, P/P is a sad weapon set.

It doesn’t necessarily need DrD to be successful though. If you’re solo or dueling, yes, it relies heavily on that. But core Thief can perform very will with P/P if they are with a group. As long as skirt the fight, or take utilities to clear target and quickly lose the focus, they will still be very deadly. More so than a DrD, as they are free to take Trick/DA/Crit.

Every weapon set doesn’t (and shouldn’t) have to be balanced around 1v1 or solo/roaming.

You’re completely missing the point.

You didn’t make any points. You stated opinions.

Your opinion is of a stealth or evade style gameplay, and you think that the weaponset is “sad” without DrD. My response was adequate in relation to your opinion.

??

I didn’t make any points? I thought it’s fairly obvious from the first sentence that begins with “My main point is” but I guess reading is hard. You’re responding about “solo or dueling” and how well P/P “if they are with a group” when I never made any argument about those.

Basically I’m talking about how perfect a convertible is when driving and you responded about sunroofs.

I’m not so sure. The recent love to P/P could make it quite potent without Daredevil per se. I see little incentive to need to run DA such that a CS/Acro/Tr build focused on more conventional mobility and kiting would be quite good and deal substantial damage.

I think the bigger issue is that pretty much any kit without Daredevil (or any weapon set on any other profession) is harshly gimping itself by just not running its elite. P/P probably gains the most from the elite of the thief weapons, but I don’t think it’s safe to call it useless when discounting Daredevil. It’s binary like D/D power, but not intrinsically bad. What makes it binary is most of the other professions, and in the case of D/D, its overarching design in respects to the stealth attack ICD. Both sets are designed hybrid and consequently also suffer a little bit because of it. Similarly to MH sword on warrior and effectively every other hybrid weapon ever made.

I think the lone exception here to the elite spec rule may be D/P given SA or something, but I mean it’s D/P which has always historically been very cohesive with core traits/gameplay styles. Even still, Daredevil is a pretty substantial boost in a lot of ways over SA.

Just a reminder; they gutted Acro to make way for Daredevil. Acro was supposed to be what DD is now (i.e. Feline Grace and the 3rd dodge). Without DD, P/P is severely kitten and surely be tossed out given how broken the other professions are even without their Elite traits.

Sure we can run CS/Acro/Trick, but that is no way near the same level of viability with DD. With that build, there’s no access to stealth other than using heal and utility skill. That right there is a 50% nerf to P/P’s defensive kit.

At this rate, P/P will never be viable unless they change direction.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Turk.5460:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Turk.5460:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

@babazhook.6805
My main point is; Dash and Bound are perfect with P/P for both stealth and evade playstyle. Without them, P/P dies since Dash is really good at keeping the distance and Bound gives access to stealth to keep the distance. Thus it should be incorporated into the weapon set these capabilities regardless of what Elite trait is available. I just don’t want to lose these when the new Elite rolls in.

I understand what you’re saying. Despite my disagreement, that I believe P/P should be a balance weapon set, I am not unaware that this set is being developed to be a “high risk, high reward” weapon set. However, it is monotonous and it’s easy to counter because of that. It loses viability when there are no other options when Unload is suppressed.

I look at it this way — take away everything DD provides and look at what was left, P/P is a sad weapon set.

It doesn’t necessarily need DrD to be successful though. If you’re solo or dueling, yes, it relies heavily on that. But core Thief can perform very will with P/P if they are with a group. As long as skirt the fight, or take utilities to clear target and quickly lose the focus, they will still be very deadly. More so than a DrD, as they are free to take Trick/DA/Crit.

Every weapon set doesn’t (and shouldn’t) have to be balanced around 1v1 or solo/roaming.

You’re completely missing the point.

You didn’t make any points. You stated opinions.

Your opinion is of a stealth or evade style gameplay, and you think that the weaponset is “sad” without DrD. My response was adequate in relation to your opinion.

??

I didn’t make any points? I thought it’s fairly obvious from the first sentence that begins with “My main point is” but I guess reading is hard. You’re responding about “solo or dueling” and how well P/P “if they are with a group” when I never made any argument about those.

Basically I’m talking about how perfect a convertible is when driving and you responded about sunroofs.

You completely missed the point of my response.

You talk P/P sad. Make blanket statement.
Me disagree. Me talk P/P still viable.
thumps chest

P.S. My main point is that some peoples reading comprehension is lacking. (Oh wait, thats an opinion, since there’s no substance to back it up and turn it into a “point”) Calm your tits.

Turk.5460:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Turk.5460:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Turk.5460:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

@babazhook.6805
My main point is; Dash and Bound are perfect with P/P for both stealth and evade playstyle. Without them, P/P dies since Dash is really good at keeping the distance and Bound gives access to stealth to keep the distance. Thus it should be incorporated into the weapon set these capabilities regardless of what Elite trait is available. I just don’t want to lose these when the new Elite rolls in.

I understand what you’re saying. Despite my disagreement, that I believe P/P should be a balance weapon set, I am not unaware that this set is being developed to be a “high risk, high reward” weapon set. However, it is monotonous and it’s easy to counter because of that. It loses viability when there are no other options when Unload is suppressed.

I look at it this way — take away everything DD provides and look at what was left, P/P is a sad weapon set.

It doesn’t necessarily need DrD to be successful though. If you’re solo or dueling, yes, it relies heavily on that. But core Thief can perform very will with P/P if they are with a group. As long as skirt the fight, or take utilities to clear target and quickly lose the focus, they will still be very deadly. More so than a DrD, as they are free to take Trick/DA/Crit.

Every weapon set doesn’t (and shouldn’t) have to be balanced around 1v1 or solo/roaming.

You’re completely missing the point.

You didn’t make any points. You stated opinions.

Your opinion is of a stealth or evade style gameplay, and you think that the weaponset is “sad” without DrD. My response was adequate in relation to your opinion.

??

I didn’t make any points? I thought it’s fairly obvious from the first sentence that begins with “My main point is” but I guess reading is hard. You’re responding about “solo or dueling” and how well P/P “if they are with a group” when I never made any argument about those.

Basically I’m talking about how perfect a convertible is when driving and you responded about sunroofs.

You completely missed the point of my response.

You talk P/P sad. Make blanket statement.
Me disagree. Me talk P/P still viable.
thumps chest

P.S. My main point is that some peoples reading comprehension is lacking. (Oh wait, thats an opinion, since there’s no substance to back it up and turn it into a “point”) Calm your tits.

You are free to make your own statement unrelated to my post, but if you choose to respond to my post, at least address the point I am making. Otherwise, you’re just wasting both of our time.

Looking at your response, you only think you disagree only because you failed to understand what you’ve read. Thank you for sharing your unrelated opinion.

Turk.5460:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I look at it this way — take away everything DD provides and look at what was left, P/P is a sad weapon set.

It doesn’t necessarily need DrD to be successful though. If you’re solo or dueling, yes, it relies heavily on that. But core Thief can perform very will with P/P if they are with a group. As long as skirt the fight, or take utilities to clear target and quickly lose the focus, they will still be very deadly. More so than a DrD, as they are free to take Trick/DA/Crit.

Every weapon set doesn’t (and shouldn’t) have to be balanced around 1v1 or solo/roaming.

-Notice how the part I quoted you on is in a separate paragraph from your initial opinion.
-Notice how it was an extremely opinionated and closed minded blanket statement on the viability of P/P.
-Notice how your entire reply to Babazhook (which was thoughtfully showing viability of the set in general) pidgeonholed the set into what you believe it should incorporate for your personal playstyle.
-Notice how I replied in disagreement with the above blanket statement you made.

Me sorry you no write good well. It’s not my fault you failed to understand why my reply revolved around the last segment of your post. You’re only wasting your own time replying to these posts. I’ve got all day to show you why you’re being unreasonable.

Turk.5460:

Turk.5460:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I look at it this way — take away everything DD provides and look at what was left, P/P is a sad weapon set.

It doesn’t necessarily need DrD to be successful though. If you’re solo or dueling, yes, it relies heavily on that. But core Thief can perform very will with P/P if they are with a group. As long as skirt the fight, or take utilities to clear target and quickly lose the focus, they will still be very deadly. More so than a DrD, as they are free to take Trick/DA/Crit.

Every weapon set doesn’t (and shouldn’t) have to be balanced around 1v1 or solo/roaming.

-Notice how the part I quoted you on is in a separate paragraph from your initial opinion.
-Notice how it was an extremely opinionated and closed minded blanket statement on the viability of P/P.
-Notice how your entire reply to Babazhook (which was thoughtfully showing viability of the set in general) pidgeonholed the set into what you believe it should incorporate for your personal playstyle.
-Notice how I replied in disagreement with the above blanket statement you made.

Me sorry you no write good well. It’s not my fault you failed to understand why my reply revolved around the last segment of your post. You’re only wasting your own time replying to these posts. I’ve got all day to show you why you’re being unreasonable.

Taking something out of context is the problem which leads you to not understanding.

Yes, that last sentence is an opinion, that’s why it started with “I look at it this way” yet you cherry pick that statement as the basis of your respond to my main point. My main point is about defense, you’re responding about offensive, which in my previous posts do not disagree with for which I posted “I am not unaware that this set is being developed to be a “high risk, high reward” weapon set”.

As I’ve already said, you’re arguing against something that I am not arguing about just because you’re own misunderstanding lead you to a wrong conclusion.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Just a reminder; they gutted Acro to make way for Daredevil. Acro was supposed to be what DD is now (i.e. Feline Grace and the 3rd dodge). Without DD, P/P is severely kitten and surely be tossed out given how broken the other professions are even without their Elite traits.

Sure we can run CS/Acro/Trick, but that is no way near the same level of viability with DD. With that build, there’s no access to stealth other than using heal and utility skill. That right there is a 50% nerf to P/P’s defensive kit.

At this rate, P/P will never be viable unless they change direction.

Except for the passives carrying Acro at the moment which are so good people are sometimes taking it over Trickery and the fact they’ve repeatedly buffed Acro since HoT’s launch to make it a much more appealing line. It’s redundant with Daredevil if you play it as an evade spammer, but Acro is far from gutted in general given the potency of IR, PR, etc. in the current meta.

Taking a P/P build to spam evades is just dumb as it is. It’s a skirmisher’s kit, not a defensive/evasive one.

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Just a reminder; they gutted Acro to make way for Daredevil. Acro was supposed to be what DD is now (i.e. Feline Grace and the 3rd dodge). Without DD, P/P is severely kitten and surely be tossed out given how broken the other professions are even without their Elite traits.

Sure we can run CS/Acro/Trick, but that is no way near the same level of viability with DD. With that build, there’s no access to stealth other than using heal and utility skill. That right there is a 50% nerf to P/P’s defensive kit.

At this rate, P/P will never be viable unless they change direction.

Except for the passives carrying Acro at the moment which are so good people are sometimes taking it over Trickery and the fact they’ve repeatedly buffed Acro since HoT’s launch to make it a much more appealing line. It’s redundant with Daredevil if you play it as an evade spammer, but Acro is far from gutted in general given the potency of IR, PR, etc. in the current meta.

Taking a P/P build to spam evades is just dumb as it is. It’s a skirmisher’s kit, not a defensive/evasive one.

Everything P/P needs from Acro were used to create DrD instead. Dash is really good at maintaining distance. Not only it removed CC, but it also apply Swiftness and damage reduction — which fit perfectly in a skirmisher’s kit. Besides, evade spam is counterproductive and I was not suggesting that.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Turk.5460:

Turk.5460:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I look at it this way — take away everything DD provides and look at what was left, P/P is a sad weapon set.

It doesn’t necessarily need DrD to be successful though. If you’re solo or dueling, yes, it relies heavily on that. But core Thief can perform very will with P/P if they are with a group. As long as skirt the fight, or take utilities to clear target and quickly lose the focus, they will still be very deadly. More so than a DrD, as they are free to take Trick/DA/Crit.

Every weapon set doesn’t (and shouldn’t) have to be balanced around 1v1 or solo/roaming.

-Notice how the part I quoted you on is in a separate paragraph from your initial opinion.
-Notice how it was an extremely opinionated and closed minded blanket statement on the viability of P/P.
-Notice how your entire reply to Babazhook (which was thoughtfully showing viability of the set in general) pidgeonholed the set into what you believe it should incorporate for your personal playstyle.
-Notice how I replied in disagreement with the above blanket statement you made.

Me sorry you no write good well. It’s not my fault you failed to understand why my reply revolved around the last segment of your post. You’re only wasting your own time replying to these posts. I’ve got all day to show you why you’re being unreasonable.

Taking something out of context is the problem which leads you to not understanding.

Yes, that last sentence is an opinion, that’s why it started with “I look at it this way” yet you cherry pick that statement as the basis of your respond to my main point. My main point is about defense, you’re responding about offensive, which in my previous posts do not disagree with for which I posted “I am not unaware that this set is being developed to be a “high risk, high reward” weapon set”.

As I’ve already said, you’re arguing against something that I am not arguing about just because you’re own misunderstanding lead you to a wrong conclusion.

If anyone misunderstands your original post, it’s generally going to be your own fault for not wording it in a way that clearly ties it all together into one coherent thought. I did not disagree with DrD synergizing well with P/P. There was nothing unrelated about my reply, which was very reasonable in replying to:
Your words:

I look at it this way — take away everything DD provides and look at what was left, P/P is a sad weapon set.

Seriously, guy? How can this even be taken out of context? Swallow your pride for half a minute and reflect.

Just because your entire post didn’t revolve around that statement doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist when its not convenient for you. You can’t claim cherrypicking, then attempt to cherrypick your own previous post. This is fun. Basic logic and reasoning as well as understanding simple context clues must be super difficult for some people…

Turk.5460:

If anyone misunderstands your original post, it’s generally going to be your own fault for not wording it in a way that clearly ties it all together into one coherent thought. I did not disagree with DrD synergizing well with P/P. There was nothing unrelated about my reply, which was very reasonable in replying to:
Your words:

I look at it this way — take away everything DD provides and look at what was left, P/P is a sad weapon set.

Seriously, guy? How can this even be taken out of context? Swallow your pride for half a minute and reflect.

Just because your entire post didn’t revolve around that statement doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist when its not convenient for you. You can’t claim cherrypicking, then attempt to cherrypick your own previous post. This is fun. Basic logic and reasoning as well as understanding simple context clues must be super difficult for some people…

That last part of my post ties perfectly to my main point. Within the context of my post, “everything DD provides” means everything that provides defensive capabilities — after all, I’m talking specifically about defensive capabilities. So taking that out of context will lead you to your erroneous conclusion believing that it is a general/blanket statement.

Fine, let’s address your counterpoint;
“Thief can perform very will with P/P if they are with a group”

This is not true. Outside the sharing of venom, Thief is not a group-oriented profession. Now that P/P can stack its own might buff, it doesn’t need to be in a group. Besides, if you’re idea of playing a P/P Thief is to stay with a group, then you’ve chosen the wrong profession. There are other professions that can do better than an Unload spamming Thief. Not to mention that the weapon set lacking AoE makes the P/P Thief a liability in a group fight. Staff shines in this scenario.

“As long as skirt the fight, or take utilities to clear target and quickly lose the focus, they will still be very deadly”

Deadly or dead. That’s a lot of caveat for using P/P which unintentionally strengthens my point that P/P needs defensive capabilities. How exactly are you to “lose focus” without access to stealth and how do you skirt the fight well without access to the level of efficiency that both Bound and Dash can provide, respectively? Without the traits from DrD, there’s no reason to take P/P and at the same time, Thief loses access to Staff.

“More so than a DrD, as they are free to take Trick/DA/Crit.”

Then this. This doesn’t even come close to replacing what is lost without DrD. Just as DeceiverX.8361 pointed out, the closest build is CS/Acro/Tr. Why in the world would you take DA using P/P?

Just as I said; “You’re completely missing the point.”

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Just a reminder; they gutted Acro to make way for Daredevil. Acro was supposed to be what DD is now (i.e. Feline Grace and the 3rd dodge). Without DD, P/P is severely kitten and surely be tossed out given how broken the other professions are even without their Elite traits.

Sure we can run CS/Acro/Trick, but that is no way near the same level of viability with DD. With that build, there’s no access to stealth other than using heal and utility skill. That right there is a 50% nerf to P/P’s defensive kit.

At this rate, P/P will never be viable unless they change direction.

Except for the passives carrying Acro at the moment which are so good people are sometimes taking it over Trickery and the fact they’ve repeatedly buffed Acro since HoT’s launch to make it a much more appealing line. It’s redundant with Daredevil if you play it as an evade spammer, but Acro is far from gutted in general given the potency of IR, PR, etc. in the current meta.

Taking a P/P build to spam evades is just dumb as it is. It’s a skirmisher’s kit, not a defensive/evasive one.

Everything P/P needs from Acro were used to create DrD instead. Dash is really good at maintaining distance. Not only it removed CC, but it also apply Swiftness and damage reduction — which fit perfectly in a skirmisher’s kit. Besides, evade spam is counterproductive and I was not suggesting that.

So the passive CC negation, swiftness uptime, passive anti-condi-bomb or invuln, (allowing Shadowstep to be used solely as a double-time mobility tool) vigor and improved vigor for sustained beneficial endurance refueling to avoid incoming damage, and either a GM that improves initiative regeneration or provides immobilize hate or extra healing based on dumping initiative is somehow bad on an initiative-hungry set which needs to tempo dodges. Particularly when fighting condi, there is no better single trait line available in the core thief, and even EA requires being in range (thus not kiting) to cleanse as it is.

Literally everything about Acro has excellent synergy with P/P.

Daredevil being forgiving and overpowered compared to all the core lines does not change the fact Acro is a very strong trait line for P/P.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Fine, let’s address your counterpoint;
“Thief can perform very will with P/P if they are with a group”

This is not true. Outside the sharing of venom, Thief is not a group-oriented profession. Now that P/P can stack its own might buff, it doesn’t need to be in a group. Besides, if you’re idea of playing a P/P Thief is to stay with a group, then you’ve chosen the wrong profession. There are other professions that can do better than an Unload spamming Thief. Not to mention that the weapon set lacking AoE makes the P/P Thief a liability in a group fight. Staff shines in this scenario.

This right here is where you lost. You’ve completely missed the point of the whole thread, subforum, and profession. Not to mention your replies are riddled with hypocrisy relating to your previous allegations – and if you can’t figure it out by re-reading the above quote you wrote, you don’t deserve an explanation.

Thief must not be your main profession. May I ask which one is?

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Just a reminder; they gutted Acro to make way for Daredevil. Acro was supposed to be what DD is now (i.e. Feline Grace and the 3rd dodge). Without DD, P/P is severely kitten and surely be tossed out given how broken the other professions are even without their Elite traits.

Sure we can run CS/Acro/Trick, but that is no way near the same level of viability with DD. With that build, there’s no access to stealth other than using heal and utility skill. That right there is a 50% nerf to P/P’s defensive kit.

At this rate, P/P will never be viable unless they change direction.

Except for the passives carrying Acro at the moment which are so good people are sometimes taking it over Trickery and the fact they’ve repeatedly buffed Acro since HoT’s launch to make it a much more appealing line. It’s redundant with Daredevil if you play it as an evade spammer, but Acro is far from gutted in general given the potency of IR, PR, etc. in the current meta.

Taking a P/P build to spam evades is just dumb as it is. It’s a skirmisher’s kit, not a defensive/evasive one.

Everything P/P needs from Acro were used to create DrD instead. Dash is really good at maintaining distance. Not only it removed CC, but it also apply Swiftness and damage reduction — which fit perfectly in a skirmisher’s kit. Besides, evade spam is counterproductive and I was not suggesting that.

So the passive CC negation, swiftness uptime, passive anti-condi-bomb or invuln, (allowing Shadowstep to be used solely as a double-time mobility tool) vigor and improved vigor for sustained beneficial endurance refueling to avoid incoming damage, and either a GM that improves initiative regeneration or provides immobilize hate or extra healing based on dumping initiative is somehow bad on an initiative-hungry set which needs to tempo dodges. Particularly when fighting condi, there is no better single trait line available in the core thief, and even EA requires being in range (thus not kiting) to cleanse as it is.

Literally everything about Acro has excellent synergy with P/P.

Daredevil being forgiving and overpowered compared to all the core lines does not change the fact Acro is a very strong trait line for P/P.

I’ve used Acro and it’s my preference instead of SA and I agree with all that. Just as you said; “Daredevil being forgiving and overpowered” is what made P/P, at least for me, fun to play and without it, I have to settle for a lesser version.

If the rumor is true, I hope that the new Elite trait will help with the Thief’s ranged combat viability.

Turk.5460:

You’ve completely missed the point of the whole thread…

Says someone who took things out of context because this someone cannot be bothered to actually read the “whole” thread. Bye.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Turk.5460:

You’ve completely missed the point of the whole thread…

Says someone who took things out of context because this someone cannot be bothered to actually read the “whole” thread. Bye.

And the lord said unto Felicia, “Fare thee well!”

Turk.5460:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Turk.5460:

You’ve completely missed the point of the whole thread…

Says someone who took things out of context because this someone cannot be bothered to actually read the “whole” thread. Bye.

And the lord said unto Felicia, “Fare thee well!”

Good job Felicia, you finally get it.