Guild Wars 2

The reason I like this idea is because it promotes proper counterplay to the thief. If they go into stealth to line up a big attack, blocking it ought to be rewarded.

The reason I’m nervous about this idea is because in typical combat (target sees the thief enter stealth) using a block in anticipation of a backstab isn’t that difficult. And if it’s long enough / used late enough the thief can’t actually attack their target, and is forced to wait for their stealth to drop anyways.

Well, I dunno. I’m concerned that it might punish thieves a little too much and be a little too easy to do.

Softspoken.2410:

The reason I like this idea is because it promotes proper counterplay to the thief. If they go into stealth to line up a big attack, blocking it ought to be rewarded.

The reason I’m nervous about this idea is because in typical combat (target sees the thief enter stealth) using a block in anticipation of a backstab isn’t that difficult. And if it’s long enough / used late enough the thief can’t actually attack their target, and is forced to wait for their stealth to drop anyways.

Well, I dunno. I’m concerned that it might punish thieves a little too much and be a little too easy to do.

Compound that with the coming stealth nerf.
If we’re just focusing on blocking, the fact that a blocked notifcation and an audible “pong” sounds when a block is successful, the blocker could use that as a warning to react. That and a good deal of blocks are counters.

Dasorine.1964:

Rump Buffalo.2594:

dont forget that the CRIT ratios (% dmg boosted by crits) is higher than that of triple chop from the axe. Therefor a critting backstab is worth MUCH more than all 3 hits of triple chop critting.

I’ve been backstabbed for 9000 before on a glassy build and i can guarantee you against the same build I’d never hit 3000 3000 3000 with triple chop.

How do you work that out then hmm? Smells like bad math to me

You’d have to figure out what the actual crit ratios are due to runes / traits and all that.

Also let’s not forget that that Attack Power scalings on these 2 abilities are also totally different even though their base damages might be the same

Dual.8953:

Rump Buffalo.2594:

ninja.4139:

Those screen shots prove the backstab damage thing, I’ll give you that, but I meant screen shots that would make a good argument for the change you’re suggesting. I don’t really feel like spending time testing, taking screen shots, etc. and if you don’t want to either, then let’s just agree to disagree.

Dual.8953:

/looks

Backstab
-403 (front)
-806 (back)

Triple Chop
-(x3) 858

Sheesh.

This is a good point in my opinion. One of the thief’s strengths is that they can do damage in single strikes while other classes, like the warrior, need multiple hits to deal damage. If thief unstealthed when they failed a sneak attack, using a single block attack or a one blind would be all it would take to nullify all the damage while doing the same to a warrior would only nullify one strike. So it kind of makes sense that you would need to use multiple defensive skills and abilities to dodge the stab. But in the end, you really need to look at the thief and all the other classes as a whole rather than a few skills.

dont forget that the CRIT ratios (% dmg boosted by crits) is higher than that of triple chop from the axe. Therefor a critting backstab is worth MUCH more than all 3 hits of triple chop critting.

I’ve been backstabbed for 9000 before on a glassy build and i can guarantee you against the same build I’d never hit 3000 3000 3000 with triple chop.

Percentages are multipliers. Multipliers have unchangable ratios. If the crit boost was additive it’d be a different story but not. So both skills have an equally scaled maximum damage potential. Now on that note Backstab does have a higher likelyhood of reaching it’s damage potential because it’s all in one shot but triple chop has a higher potential and is more readily accessible.

My mathematical proof is.
9•1.5= 13.5
(3•1.5)•3= 13.5

Right… sorry i mispoke. My meaning was that since they scale differently with power their crits end up different because base damage is not all that is taken into account. Backstab, as I understand it, scales higher with power than a lot of other skills.

Rump Buffalo.2594:

Right… sorry i mispoke. My meaning was that since they scale differently with power their crits end up different because base damage is not all that is taken into account. Backstab, as I understand it, scales higher with power than a lot of other skills.

except the base tooltip damage takes that into account, those damages are calculated using that scale, so if 2 skills have similiar damage on tooltip they have similiar damage coefficients.

Granted unless there identical then one will always be more damage (and will get progressively more and more as power goes up).

However as the axe attack has the higher coefficient it kind of goes against your complaint.

Rump Buffalo.2594:

Dasorine.1964:

Rump Buffalo.2594:

dont forget that the CRIT ratios (% dmg boosted by crits) is higher than that of triple chop from the axe. Therefor a critting backstab is worth MUCH more than all 3 hits of triple chop critting.

I’ve been backstabbed for 9000 before on a glassy build and i can guarantee you against the same build I’d never hit 3000 3000 3000 with triple chop.

How do you work that out then hmm? Smells like bad math to me

You’d have to figure out what the actual crit ratios are due to runes / traits and all that.

Also let’s not forget that that Attack Power scalings on these 2 abilities are also totally different even though their base damages might be the same

Damage calculation for all attacks:

Weapon Damage * Power * (Skill Dependant Coefficient * Critical Coefficient) / Target Armour

No different power scaling, no different critical coefficient, the only thing that differs between weapons is the Weapon Damage and Skill Coefficient (Average weapon damage for all 1 hand weapons is the same though)

Through some easy math (Tooltip Value * 2600) / (Average weapon damage * Power) you can figure out the coefficient for a particular skill.

I calculate the coefficient for Backstab to be around 1.62 while the coefficient for Triple Chop is 1.73.

This combined with the higher maximum damage for Axes would mean that Triple Chop will be able to beat out Backstab given the same stats. (Various % damage increases on Thief, the lower chance of meeting an Axe Warrior that’s gone full GC in traits and gear will shift the observed values somewhat)

Taril.8619:

Rump Buffalo.2594:

Dasorine.1964:

Rump Buffalo.2594:

dont forget that the CRIT ratios (% dmg boosted by crits) is higher than that of triple chop from the axe. Therefor a critting backstab is worth MUCH more than all 3 hits of triple chop critting.

I’ve been backstabbed for 9000 before on a glassy build and i can guarantee you against the same build I’d never hit 3000 3000 3000 with triple chop.

How do you work that out then hmm? Smells like bad math to me

You’d have to figure out what the actual crit ratios are due to runes / traits and all that.

Also let’s not forget that that Attack Power scalings on these 2 abilities are also totally different even though their base damages might be the same

Damage calculation for all attacks:

Weapon Damage * Power * (Skill Dependant Coefficient * Critical Coefficient) / Target Armour

No different power scaling, no different critical coefficient, the only thing that differs between weapons is the Weapon Damage and Skill Coefficient (Average weapon damage for all 1 hand weapons is the same though)

Through some easy math (Tooltip Value * 2600) / (Average weapon damage * Power) you can figure out the coefficient for a particular skill.

I calculate the coefficient for Backstab to be around 1.62 while the coefficient for Triple Chop is 1.73.

This combined with the higher maximum damage for Axes would mean that Triple Chop will be able to beat out Backstab given the same stats. (Various % damage increases on Thief, the lower chance of meeting an Axe Warrior that’s gone full GC in traits and gear will shift the observed values somewhat)

think you went a bit off there, backstab is 2.405ish axe should be around 2.5-2.6ish

It was my understanding that different skills had different scaling for power/weapon damage.

I guess I was wrong

they do, thats the skill damage coefficient, however that scaling is calculated IN the tooltip, thats what gives them their different damage amounts.

They don’t have a set damage that then scales up, instead they have the multiplier that is ALL they are at the basic level.

That then multiplies with your weapon damage and power to give skill damage (divided by a set armour amount for your level for the tooltip)

Backstabs coefficient is 2.402 Triple chop is 2.557

Gamblit.5041:

You seem to think that Stealth is an ability a thief can activate like a skill every time he wants to on a 3 second cooldown.

When I use my p/d spec I feel like I have access to stealth when ever I need it. With a d/p build you have amazing access to stealth. If you use your utilities with a d/d build you still get several stealth from utilities, heal and c&d, so we still have access to our burst more than any other burst abilities.

Gamblit.5041:

Stealth also doesn’t garanties thief a " big attack " every 3 seconds, it all depends on the opponent movement skills. Opponent can reduce the damage of this " big attack " by 50 % simply by turning around. So a 50% chance to receive half of Backstab damage is already big enough advantage in a hands of a skilled opponent. Their is no need to make the game even more simpler to play.

It is not giving an advantage it is treating the thief fairly. All melee attacks have a chance to be negated, not just thieves with backstab. If you move out of an aoe from a staff ele or move back a little from a warriors hundred blade you can also negate their damage, and it is easier to see the attack coming.

It is a matter of treating people fairly, just like I saw many thieves support when the mesmer could not summon phantasms with a blind anymore. And if your opponent timed a block, blind or invulnerability, they did their job at countering you, you shouldn’t get a retry because they know what they are doing.

Gamblit.5041:

Let me also remind you that a Thief uses Stealth attacks and a skill cost mechanic unique to the thief profession. You can’t treat classes that uses different systems equally. You have to look at the thief from a different perspective.

I have a thief and all my opinions are based on my experiences playing her and playing against other thieves on my other characters. I know the mechanic and my opinion is that just like c&d is blockable, a well timed block should stop backstab.

Constantine.7812:

to me thief = legalized cheating class. i have nothing against other classes (maybe million clones mesmers and not killable eles, but i could live with that.) but thieves are really a bad joke from anet atm. cant believe they didnt do anything about it yet. im not even explaining more cuz we all know what im talking about. its just ppl playing thieves pretending everything is ok.

Either you are a “NewBlood”, or you’re trolling.