Guild Wars 2

Sir Vincent III.1286:

No you won’t be doing heavy damage no matter how much you try nor your dps would be “very good” — mediocre maybe.

And while you’re in stealth, you’re not doing any damage — you’re just trolling.

Plenty of d/p and d/d builds hit 6-7k backstabs on medium armor targets with 6 in SA. No, it’s not PvE level of damage, but that’s still very good dps.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

If playing teef were about dps alone, you’d see a lot more 5/6/0/0/3 or 6/6/0/0/2 d/d and s/p builds. The reason you don’t, and the reason 6 in SA is so popular, is because even for teefs, survivability IS important.

Again.

You have this limited view that Thief’s survivability relies on having 6pts into SA — time and time again this had been proven to be inaccurate.

I’m aware that you don’t need 6 SA to survive. I’ve even acknowledged that acro and shortbow are good alternatives. However, you haven’t addressed my point. If playing thief is about dps alone, why is something like 0/6/6/2/0 so much more popular than something like 5/6/0/0/3 in WvW? Why do so many WvW builds trait 6 into SA as opposed to 6 into DA?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

No it’s not weird at all because the trait also give healing power. Healing power would be worthless if you can’t mitigate the incoming damage.

You don’t avoid damage by going in stealth. Just FYI.

The biggest benefit of stealth is that you mitigate a lot of damage when they can’t see where you are. Yes, they can still aoe you, but good positioning means you really won’t be taking much (if any) damage while you’re stealthed.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Builds take those traits for utility. Even a non-power spec can benefit from those traits. What specific benefit that is exclusive to power build from Trickery? None.

What specific benefit that is exclusive to condition damage build from Trickery? Well it’s obvious, a base 300 condition damage.

Why are quick venoms/potent poison in DA and why is venomous aura in SA? Most venoms don’t benefit from power/toughness/healing power. In fact, this is general to other classes as well. Why do the most important power shatter mesmer traits fall into a line that grants passive condition damage? Note also that the most popular condition mesmer builds don’t trait into that same line at all.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

6pts in DA gives 300 power + 200 power from RT = 500 power. That’s nothing to sneeze at.

How can you possibly make up that loss of power when you spec for 6pts in to SA?

If you want to look at cost, that’s it there, right there. That’s how much it cost to spec 6pts into SA — 500 power.

Most builds that spec 6 into SA are WvW builds. You have guard leech, consumables, bloodlust, runes of strength, etc. Not to mention that having easy access and great benefits from stealth means you can gear much squishier and still get away with it. So, yes, you will still do good damage with 6 in SA.

Of course, you won’t do as much damage as 6/6/0/0/2 or 5/6/0/0/3, but I’ve yet to meet anyone who finds that an irrecoverable loss.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The other GM traits are build specific that cannot be used in “general.”

You like to generalize everything using hyperbole. You’re better off admitting that it is your personal preference than trying to speak for every Thief.

I’m not trying to be hyperbolic. Yes, everything always comes down to personal preference, but I think the other GM traits are generally better — they synergize with other builds better, have more team utility, offer more finishing power, etc. I don’t mean generally as in “every thief should take X, Y, Z”, but rather that X, Y, and Z usually fare better.

Compare hastened replenishment and SoH in trickery. Both are strong traits, and certain builds do take hastened replenishment. But in general, SoH is a better choice because it has more team utility and a wider range of offensive and defensive applications, and more people run SoH than hastened replenishment. That’s what I mean by “generally, the other GM traits are better choices”.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

It’s often a gg also when they refuse to take action because they don’t want to take Confusion damage. Often I’ve seen it puts them into a panic mode.

Irrelevant. The original point was about stuffing a #6, which is almost universally devastating. Confusion stacks are not nearly the same threat, especially without itemization. I’ll take an interrupt of an important skill nine times out of ten over mind games.

CDR is a miss and hit especially when spec with SoH. You don’t want to just use it as soon as it goes out of cooldown — even for Thrill/BT.

Often times, Steal just sits there out of CD because you don’t want to waste that precious Daze that can be used as an interrupt.

Might be hit or miss for you, but it’s not hit or miss for me. I use Thrill for overland travel (IMS is better than Traveler’s or SoS), and Steal is also the primary source of Vigor/Might/Fury for me. Since I don’t run CS or deep DA, I do need the offense. You’d better believe that the extra 5.4s seconds matters. Especially since I am main Sword, and gap-closers are pretty important.

I’ll run Bewildering when I am with my P/D partner, if he is running Thrill/BT, since I can benefit from the AOE on his Steal, and adding another 5 stacks of Confusion from a weak source doesn’t matter (the target won’t know who the Confusion stacks are from).

But otherwise, SoH on my S/P build. Interrupt and CDR are too good.

How so? You can’t daze a stabilized target.

Just like with your mistake on Pain Response’s ICD, this is a tell that you don’t actually use the Sleight of Hand + Bountiful Theft combo. Stealing someone’s Stability and ending a stomp is a big deal; I did this twice last night, just roaming.

Unlike SoH, where you find yourself saving that Daze, BA encourages you to use Steal as soon as it’s out of cooldown.

BA’s “encouragement” is a result of having fewer tactical options available. This is not an advantage, it’s a restriction.

More like 100% of a time.

Not unless there is a skill-based effect attached to the dodge roll.

Yes, that’s what I said. It’s 1000x better because;
1) BA has a potential to pacify the target for 6s.
2) It actually deals damage.
3) The worth of BA compounds depending on what your target do.
4) 1500 Cond Damg + stacks of might simply sky rockets this trait

No no. This is what you said, as another reminder:

""The new GM trait for Trickery is 1000 times better in practice since it actually sync with the condition damage you get from Trickery"

You are saying something very specific here, something that is not supported by the facts. Dealing an extra ~112 damage is what “the condition damage you get from Trickery” lends you. That is not one thousand times better; it’s not even better than extra damage from a faster-recycling Mug.

My respond is within the context of WvW where 25 stack of might is easily achieved. You used WvW as your basis, why is it ridiculous?

A lone Thief cannot possibly maintain 25 stacks of Might. At best, my sustainable level is 6-7 out of combat and 10-12 in combat. I need fire fields or specific party members to get any more than that. You are detailing a small group or a blob, which by its nature changes the whole equation of the worth of the Grandmaster traits.

I get why Bewildering is attractive: it’s an Easy Button™ that doesn’t require a lot of thought, and can fool enemies into making bad decisions. And even still I’d take SoH in specific situations, because of the CDR and the Daze.

Irrelevant. The original point was about stuffing a #6, which is almost universally devastating. Confusion stacks are not nearly the same threat, especially without itemization. I’ll take an interrupt of an important skill nine times out of ten over mind games.

Stuffing #6 is contrary to your freely using Steal for Thrill/BT. You can’t have both.

You either waste the stuffing capability to get your buffs, or deny yourself the buff to save it for stuffing.

Might be hit or miss for you, but it’s not hit or miss for me. I use Thrill for overland travel (IMS is better than Traveler’s or SoS), and Steal is also the primary source of Vigor/Might/Fury for me. Since I don’t run CS or deep DA, I do need the offense. You’d better believe that the extra 5.4s seconds matters. Especially since I am main Sword, and gap-closers are pretty important.

My point is, when you’re engage in a fight, you can either use Steal for the buff or for interrupt and often times the CDR doesn’t matter because Steal will just sit there waiting for you to use it, mainly to interrupt #6.

But otherwise, SoH on my S/P build. Interrupt and CDR are too good.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree on that.

Just like with your mistake on Pain Response’s ICD, this is a tell that you don’t actually use the Sleight of Hand + Bountiful Theft combo. Stealing someone’s Stability and ending a stomp is a big deal; I did this twice last night, just roaming.

I run S/D for a long time to strip buffs since I never really like Bountiful Theft, thus I asked the question. Why would you call it my “mistake” is beyond me.

BA’s “encouragement” is a result of having fewer tactical options available. This is not an advantage, it’s a restriction.

I disagree. Continuously applying pressure is a tactical advantage. What’s restrictive is saving your SoH for stuffing #6, it denies you from having the buffs from Thrill/BT.

No no. This is what you said, as another reminder:

""The new GM trait for Trickery is 1000 times better in practice since it actually sync with the condition damage you get from Trickery"

You are saying something very specific here, something that is not supported by the facts. Dealing an extra ~112 damage is what “the condition damage you get from Trickery” lends you. That is not one thousand times better; it’s not even better than extra damage from a faster-recycling Mug.

I said, “1000 times better in practice,” and yes it’s convenient to ignore that one too.

A lone Thief cannot possibly maintain 25 stacks of Might. At best, my sustainable level is 6-7 out of combat and 10-12 in combat. I need fire fields or specific party members to get any more than that. You are detailing a small group or a blob, which by its nature changes the whole equation of the worth of the Grandmaster traits.

Even at 1 stack of might, BA still benefit from it compare to SoH that never benefits whatsoever.

I get why Bewildering is attractive: it’s an Easy Button™ that doesn’t require a lot of thought, and can fool enemies into making bad decisions. And even still I’d take SoH in specific situations, because of the CDR and the Daze.

I can respect that opinion, but doesn’t mean I agree with it.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Stuffing #6 is contrary to your freely using Steal for Thrill/BT. You can’t have both.

And also Mug, and Serpent’s Touch, and a shadowstep, and 2 initiative. Life is about choices. I don’t always need the boons 100% of the time in combat; weighing the opportunity cost is part of the deal.

The point is that SoH fits into both styles: spamming as soon as you get Steal off cooldown, as well as tactical use. BA does not have that flexibility; it’s a simplified decision tree because you hack two branches off of it.

My point is, when you’re engage in a fight, you can either use Steal for the buff or for interrupt and often times the CDR doesn’t matter because Steal will just sit there waiting for you to use it, mainly to interrupt #6.

My point is that you need to read the things I am typing. I rely on SoH for overland mobility.

I have 30% boon duration, and Steal is on a 21.5s cooldown. Thrill gives 13s of IMS, and I regen enough endurance during that period to get three dodge rolls (21s * 5%), which is another 7.8s of IMS. Those math wizards amongst us will note that this is 20.8s of IMS uptime during a 21.5s cooldown, or a brief 0.8s window without IMS.

If I slot BA instead of SoH, that IMS downtime balloons to nearly 4s. Now I need to get endurance regen, or pop my heal for Vigor, or splat a bunny rabbit.

All so that I can maybe hurt some idiot for ~800 damage during a 5 second Confusion window. My autoattack hits harder than that. Hell, MUG hits harder than that, and it heals me too.

Why am I kicking dirt on my mobility and combat parameters so that I can be a homeless man’s Mesmer?

We’ll just have to agree to disagree on that.

You’re free to feel that way, but in reality, my build is not subject to your approval in any case.

Why would you call it my “mistake” is beyond me.

I didn’t call it a mistake (your mistake was on another issue), I just said that it was a “tell” that you never actually used it. Because if you did, you would have known. This is the hazard of pontificating about a subject on which you are not sufficiently familiar.

I disagree. Continuously applying pressure is a tactical advantage. What’s restrictive is saving your SoH for stuffing #6, it denies you from having the buffs from Thrill/BT.

Confusion pressure from a non-condi Thief is like being pelted with marshmallows. Even something as dumb as having Mug available sooner after the initial Steal has a bigger impact on the fight, never mind the boons. Saving or not saving is situational.

I said, “1000 times better in practice,” and yes it’s convenient to ignore that one too.

No no. you said this:

“The new GM trait for Trickery is 1000 times better in practice since it actually sync with the condition damage you get from Trickery”

Put more simply, you said “X since Y”. Well, Y is a problem. The condition damage “sync” is a funny joke, not an argument.

Even at 1 stack of might, BA still benefit from it compare to SoH that never benefits whatsoever.

You’re just changing the goalposts at this point, seeing as how your original argument went nowhere. One stack of Might adds a whole 13 damage to a shot of BA. Hell, SoH makes Serpent’s Touch available more often, which does more “damage” due to the healing penalty it gives. And Might works on that, too!

Pardon me for not calling a press conference over 13 damage.

Interceptor.2653:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Stuffing #6 is contrary to your freely using Steal for Thrill/BT. You can’t have both.

And also Mug, and Serpent’s Touch, and a shadowstep, and 2 initiative. Life is about choices. I don’t always need the boons 100% of the time in combat; weighing the opportunity cost is part of the deal.

The point is that SoH fits into both styles: spamming as soon as you get Steal off cooldown, as well as tactical use. BA does not have that flexibility; it’s a simplified decision tree because you hack two branches off of it.

Yes, BA is not about flexibility, it’s about applying continuous pressure because everytime you use it, you get “Mug, and Serpent’s Touch, and a shadowstep, and 2 initiative” plus 5 stacks of Confusion plus Thrill/BT if you spec for it.

You’re only limiting yourself waiting to use SoH to stuff #6.

My point is that you need to read the things I am typing. I rely on SoH for overland mobility.

I have 30% boon duration, and Steal is on a 21.5s cooldown. Thrill gives 13s of IMS, and I regen enough endurance during that period to get three dodge rolls (21s * 5%), which is another 7.8s of IMS. Those math wizards amongst us will note that this is 20.8s of IMS uptime during a 21.5s cooldown, or a brief 0.8s window without IMS.

If I slot BA instead of SoH, that IMS downtime balloons to nearly 4s. Now I need to get endurance regen, or pop my heal for Vigor, or splat a bunny rabbit.

I’m not arguing about which GM is better at running a marathon since there are many other ways to improve travel time rather than putting Steal in CD. For a cheap price of 6 seconds, you can travel for 900 units using a SB. So I’m not entirely sure why SoH suddenly a better choice for traveling.

All so that I can maybe hurt some idiot for ~800 damage during a 5 second Confusion window. My autoattack hits harder than that. Hell, MUG hits harder than that, and it heals me too.

Well Confusion lasts 6.5s for me. The Confusion damage is added to autoattack damage and Mug damage, which is compounded by every action that the target makes. It’s part of applying constant pressure on the target.

You’re free to feel that way, but in reality, my build is not subject to your approval in any case.

That doesn’t really matter, now does it?

I didn’t call it a mistake

Really? You said; “Just like with your mistake on Pain Response’s ICD”

What is it that is like my mistake on PR then?

I just said that it was a “tell” that you never actually used it. Because if you did, you would have known. This is the hazard of pontificating about a subject on which you are not sufficiently familiar.

I wasn’t arguing nor talking about the effectiveness of Bountiful Theft in conjunction with SoH, you brought up that subject yourself and I simply ask a question based on your claim.

Now you’re making it look like I brought up a subject I know nothing about when in fact you did that all by yourself.

Confusion pressure from a non-condi Thief is like being pelted with marshmallows. Even something as dumb as having Mug available sooner after the initial Steal has a bigger impact on the fight, never mind the boons. Saving or not saving is situational.

Says by someone who said, “I’ll run Bewildering when I am with my P/D partner”.

So why even swap SoH to BA if you’re a non-condi Thief? What’re you trying to accomplish by this swap if it’s nothing but “like being pelted with marshmallows”?

I have not fully changed my gear to condition damage and my Confusion damage is already dealing 570 dmg per action that last for 6.5s.

That’s way more damage than what marshmallows can dish out.

No no. you said this:

“The new GM trait for Trickery is 1000 times better in practice since it actually sync with the condition damage you get from Trickery”

Put more simply, you said “X since Y”. Well, Y is a problem. The condition damage “sync” is a funny joke, not an argument.

I said “in practice” while you insist on looking at paper. Do I really have to explain what that means?

You’re just changing the goalposts at this point, seeing as how your original argument went nowhere. One stack of Might adds a whole 13 damage to a shot of BA. Hell, SoH makes Serpent’s Touch available more often, which does more “damage” due to the healing penalty it gives. And Might works on that, too!

Pardon me for not calling a press conference over 13 damage.

lol, only 13 damage, really? We’re still talking about the condition called Confusion right?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Yes, BA is not about flexibility, it’s about applying continuous pressure because everytime you use it, you get “Mug, and Serpent’s Touch, and a shadowstep, and 2 initiative” plus 5 stacks of Confusion plus Thrill/BT if you spec for it.

SoH is also about continuous pressure, because it shaves 20% off the recast time of that entire birthday present, which includes all sorts of goodies. I am free to completely ignore the interrupt factor and just use Steal whenever it is off CD; the Daze still does something useful even if it’s not an optimal time to use it.

The difference is, SoH has an additional tactical use that BA does not. Since I am a human being with a brain, I can use whichever style best suits the fight. Sometimes that means fishing for interrupts while spamming boons, sometimes it means holding back and trying to stuff a heal, or stopping a stab stomp, or using SoH like a ghetto stunbreaker on a Warrior that just knocked me down. Etc.

I’m not arguing about which GM is better at running a marathon since there are many other ways to improve travel time rather than putting Steal in CD. For a cheap price of 6 seconds, you can travel for 900 units using a SB. So I’m not entirely sure why SoH suddenly a better choice for traveling.

You’re not arguing it because it’s devastating to your case. Overland mobility is an important part of playing a Thief in WvW, and trading SoH for BA hurts it. I just detailed how, and you have no answer for it.

Infiltrator’s Arrow is used alongside of — not in place of — normal travel with IMS. There is no replacement for permanent 33% movement speed, which is better than what SoS and Traveler’s can offer.

Well Confusion lasts 6.5s for me. The Confusion damage is added to autoattack damage and Mug damage, which is compounded by every action that the target makes. It’s part of applying constant pressure on the target.

I don’t care about your build. You can spec however you like. What I care about, is this ridiculous notion that BA is “1000x better than SoH”. I’d actually make myself weaker in a lot of scenarios by trading one for the other. Logically, you’d expect this to undermine your case, but logic isn’t a welcome guest here.

What is it that is like my mistake on PR then?

Your ignorance of mechanics that you don’t use. Not knowing PR’s ICD (you were off by a factor of 100%). Not knowing about the interaction between BT and SoH. Not knowing that dodge rolls only proc Confusion when there is a skill attached.

These are the sort of things you should be aware of before you make grand proclamations about BA (or anything else).

So why even swap SoH to BA if you’re a non-condi Thief? What’re you trying to accomplish by this swap if it’s nothing but “like being pelted with marshmallows”?

If I am with a P/D Trickery Thief, I can mitigate a lot of the disadvantages of losing SoH by leveraging that Thief’s AOE boons. It also adds an element of uncertainty and cover, because the target has no idea if the Confusion stacks are from the Sword Thief or the P/D Thief.

tl;dr, unlike some people, I actually change my loadout depending on the situation.

I said “in practice” while you insist on looking at paper. Do I really have to explain what that means?

The benefit from 300 condition damage is exactly the same in practice as it is on paper. You’re attributing magic powers to max Trickery that don’t exist anywhere. The “sync” is just a measly +112 damage per proc. This is a rounding error on most health bars.

lol, only 13 damage, really? We’re still talking about the condition called Confusion right?

One stack of might, 35 condition damage, 2.625 damage per stack of Confusion, ~13 damage for the whole BA payload.

Where would you like to go now? Let’s go on as many irrelevant tangents as possible. We’ve already established that even kitten Might builds can’t reach 25 stacks of sustained Might solo, and your retort of “at least one stack” has nearly no impact on BA whatsoever.

Interceptor.2653:

SoH is also about continuous pressure, because it shaves 20% off the recast time of that entire birthday present, which includes all sorts of goodies. I am free to completely ignore the interrupt factor and just use Steal whenever it is off CD; the Daze still does something useful even if it’s not an optimal time to use it.

That’s not what you’ve been saying in your previous posts. Using BA is completely difference play style than using SoH. Sure you can use SoH whenever it goes out of cooldown but we both know that is not what we do in practice based on what you have posted so far.

The difference is, SoH has an additional tactical use that BA does not. Since I am a human being with a brain, I can use whichever style best suits the fight. Sometimes that means fishing for interrupts while spamming boons, sometimes it means holding back and trying to stuff a heal, or stopping a stab stomp, or using SoH like a ghetto stunbreaker on a Warrior that just knocked me down. Etc.

You’re using S/P and you can accomplish all those without ever spec-ing for SoH. You make it sound like those who don’t spec 6pts into Trickery are doomed.

You’re not arguing it because it’s devastating to your case. Overland mobility is an important part of playing a Thief in WvW, and trading SoH for BA hurts it. I just detailed how, and you have no answer for it.

Like I said, if you want to argue with mobility, then this is not the thread since Thieves who don’t spec for SoH are not crippled in terms of mobility. You’re bringing this unrelated issue up only because your case is running out of steam.

Infiltrator’s Arrow is used alongside of — not in place of — normal travel with IMS. There is no replacement for permanent 33% movement speed, which is better than what SoS and Traveler’s can offer.

IA makes SoH unnecessary.

I don’t care about your build. You can spec however you like. What I care about, is this ridiculous notion that BA is “1000x better than SoH”. I’d actually make myself weaker in a lot of scenarios by trading one for the other. Logically, you’d expect this to undermine your case, but logic isn’t a welcome guest here.

Bleh, you speak of logic when your claim is not even based on one, because it’s easy for you to misrepresent what I’ve posted than to address it. By the way, you conveniently left out “in practice” again. But that’s ok, it seems that we’re done talking about this since you refuse to address what I posted as a whole.

Your ignorance of mechanics that you don’t use. Not knowing PR’s ICD (you were off by a factor of 100%). Not knowing about the interaction between BT and SoH. Not knowing that dodge rolls only proc Confusion when there is a skill attached.

These are the sort of things you should be aware of before you make grand proclamations about BA (or anything else).

What are you spewing about? When did I ever claim knowing about the interaction between BT and SoH? You’re making stuff up now?

If I am with a P/D Trickery Thief, I can mitigate a lot of the disadvantages of losing SoH by leveraging that Thief’s AOE boons. It also adds an element of uncertainty and cover, because the target has no idea if the Confusion stacks are from the Sword Thief or the P/D Thief.

tl;dr, unlike some people, I actually change my loadout depending on the situation.

I’m asking about your comment that BA is like mashmallow, not its psychological capability.

The benefit from 300 condition damage is exactly the same in practice as it is on paper. You’re attributing magic powers to max Trickery that don’t exist anywhere. The “sync” is just a measly +112 damage per proc. This is a rounding error on most health bars.

That’s where we disagree. You can continue on your misrepresentation of BA’s worth all you want, but this is not going anywhere.

One stack of might, 35 condition damage, 2.625 damage per stack of Confusion, ~13 damage for the whole BA payload.

On paper.

Where would you like to go now? Let’s go on as many irrelevant tangents as possible. We’ve already established that even kitten Might builds can’t reach 25 stacks of sustained Might solo, and your retort of “at least one stack” has nearly no impact on BA whatsoever.

How much impact does 1 stack of might does for SoH? You’re the one going off irrelevant tangent like running a marathon using SoH.

Can we get back to Revealed Training? As a newbie thief, I’m still trying to decide if it’s good or not.

Well it’s definitely better than Panic Strike. I think it might be better than Residual Venom, unless maybe you also take Venomous Aura.
It definitely still sucks, but unfortunately MOST Thief traits suck, so whether or not it’s a superior option is debatable.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Can we get back to Revealed Training? As a newbie thief, I’m still trying to decide if it’s good or not.

Yeah, I’m done talking about the off topic stuff.

As for RT, it is good if your build is mainly about stealth — not necessarily going 6pts into SA. With RT, you don’t really want to stay in stealth longer than you should so going deep into SA is not necessary.